Constructive Criticisms
Inevitably things are not as heated and there is less to oppose, when the party you support is in power. And Winston is gone. But I would rather slit my throat than become a rabid cheerleader who thinks the Government can do no wrong, just because of the change of power.
I’ve just done a quick check, and since the election, I have:
- poked fun at the role of Associate Minister for the Rugby World Cup
- suggested the Deputy Speaker should be from the Opposition
- criticised the deal with the Maori Party for extra staff for Maori electorates
- criticised the size of the Executive several times
- highlighted and criticised a new ACT MP
- praised Phil Goff three times!
- advocated a free vote for Speaker and praised Cullen as a potential Speaker
- criticised Rodney for his comments on Sunday about John Key
- called for an inquiry into new National MP Kanwaljit Bakshi (and Shane Jones)
- praised Labour and Helen Clark for their leadership transition
- advocated for major portfolios to be within Cabinet
Now of course overall I will be agreeing with the Government far more than I disagree with it. That happens when your get the Government you campaigned for. But as Keith Holyoake once said, even he only agreed with 80% of what his Government did. So I imagine I will also be very keen on 80% of what the Government does, be luke warm to cold on 15% and pretty unhappy with a few decisions.
That is the nature of politics.
It drives me mad to see all these left wingers now talking about how bad the Electoral Finance Act is, yet said nothing at the time. The world will not end if you publicly disagree with your party. Obviously it helps if the disagreement is made respectfully, but one can agree to disagree.
November 18th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
In my brief aquaintance with left-wing causes in the 80s, this distrust of dissent seemed quite common. You couldn’t just be interested in nuclear disarmament. You also had to be concerned about the treaty, feminism and a whole swag of other defining issues (whales were good).
I think it is an effective political device to make sure everyone is going in the same direction, possibly accounting for the relative success of the left at organising ‘mass movements’.
But the lower tolerance of dissent has a price- it makes it easier for people with agendas that normally we’d fund repugnant, floating to the top of such organisations.
November 18th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
The vitriol from the standard over the past week has been astounding. I guess it’s stress from having to move offices.
November 18th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
DPF, you said:
“It drives me mad to see all these left wingers now talking about how bad the Electoral Finance Act is, yet said nothing at the time.”
Yet again your good nature and attempts to see the good in everyone let you down.
These left wingers who are now talking about how bad the EFA is DID SAY SOMETHING AT THE TIME.
In fact many of them were hysterical shriekers IN SUPPORT OF THE LEGISLATION.
How they can now suddenly do a complete 180 and expect to receive anything but contempt from us is hilarious.
Jordan, the onanists at the lapblog and Phill Goff can all suck my hairy arse.. Your own legislation, that you claimed loudly for months and months was vital and well written, that you rammed down our throats DID NOT WORK, DID IT?
November 18th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
the lefties operate on faith.
righties operate pragmatically issue by issue.
I think you will find that right fanatics disagree with right governments more than left fanatics disagree with left governments.
November 18th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
“there is less to oppose, when the party you support is in power.”
Yes indeed. Now that the government is the right colour, there will be no ministers outside of parliament, no fart taxes, no leftist social policies like support for workers who lose their jobs, no moderate policy agenda that caters to the centre rather than the industrious individualist battlers…..
November 18th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
David, you, of everyone, don’t have to justify yourself.
PS Charlie Tan – masturbation makes you go blind as well. Best stop now while you only have one symptom.
November 18th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
DPF: Actually some of us “on the left” still support the EFA… even though at the time it was being considered, we quibbled with some aspects…
November 18th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Ahem:
THIS leftie has never had very much to say for or against the EFA, not feeling particularly well-enough informed to offer anything to the forum. But interesting to see that “The lefties this, the lefties that” type comments are alive and well, no wonder your fans feel so at liberty to make these kinds of generalizations!
Your “cheerleader” comment would be easier to swallow if I had not been reading Kiwiblog throughout the election year, and seen the sea change in tone as soon as the campaigns started. How Many “flip flops” did the right make, and how many “pragmatic changes in policy” did the left make, again? Hmmm?
And your “agree to disagree” comment would be easier to swallow if:
(1) You attempted to address the apparent imbalance between your very very condescending responses to leftie comments in the threads, vs your seemingly endless tolerance of “Sarah Palin is a misunderstood genius who can do no wrong and Hussein Obama is a corrupt incompetent terrorist who will destroy America” type comments in the threads!
(2) You came down a bit harder on EVEN A LITTLE BIT of the swearing and cursing and mindless abuse that invariably occurs whenever someone offers a contrary view around here!
November 18th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
It’s the politics of conviction that we need to watch out for. That is the conviction that I’m right first time and if I change my mind it is because I only just found the page in the little book that tells me what I am convinced of. However, if you change your mind on something, to reflect new facts or evidence, you’re a flip-flopist.
So there it is, would you rather enjoy the fun of flip-flops, or be convicted?!
.
.
.
PS. THe fun is knowing you are doing the right thing by changing your mind AND confounding your opponents who now want to ridicule soething they thought was right earlier, and don’t knw how to do it.
November 18th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
The Electoral Financa Act should be retained in whole and actually made more draconian with Saudi Style Consequences for any Non Government Parties.
The Electoral Commision will be encouraged to even more fair mainded to the Incumbent Govenment with no consequences for misdeeds whatsoever.
All Union Funding to be ceased immediately, and Union Membership shall be entirely opt-in in all repects.
Better Still will be the immediate cessation on any Blogs supporting a Party with contrary views from Govenment. Government Approved Blogs will be entirely free to report positive, Neutral, and Negative items on Govenrment so that there is just no need for any other Internet Blogs based in NZ or Overseas.
November 18th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
@Ratbiter-
I agree quite a bit with your comment on the generalizations of lefties. For me despite being a strong left leaning person, I have made it no secret when I disagreed with Labour.
November 18th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
(2) You came down a bit harder on EVEN A LITTLE BIT of the swearing and cursing and mindless abuse that invariably occurs whenever someone offers a contrary view around here!
At least they dont get you banned like some left wing sites I could name!
November 18th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
The EFA is a poorly researched bill. And the police have had enough of it.
November 18th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
What? had enough of not prosecuting the ruling junta?
The winds of change need to blow the top floor of police hq right out of the window.
November 18th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
I think you overrate yourself – there was barely any criticism of the new ACT MP – in fact you basically said that his actions where of no real concern: “Not a helpful story, but when I first read it, I thought this had just happened this weekend. It is somewhat of a different story that it was before he was even a candidate.”
You have criticised the size of the Executive, but what about the number of Ministers (especially from non-National parties) outside cabinet? This is surely a weakening of the collective responsibility – Key has not only not reversed the position, he now has 5 rather than 2 non governing party MP’s outside cabinet.
“I’m not very keen on these sort of deals. My belief is that all but the most minor portfolios should be held by Ministers in Cabinet. Call me a traditionalist but the weakening of collective responsibility is a concern. Now to be fair to Key, he is not weakening it – Clark did. He is just not reversing it.” DPF 11 Nov2008
November 18th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
An example, lefties applauded the amount of cold hard cash labour threw at health (to fix the ‘run down’ health service), and will argue to death that health is better than 9 years ago.
This is despite government statistics showing static or declining health productivity.
Lefties heads are in their ostrich holes.
November 18th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Um, DPF, who is the new ACT MP you have “highlighted and criticised”.
I’ve missed it! Rumour has it that David Garrett has made some statements that are totally inappropriate in interviews to appoint his Parliamentary staff. Is it him to whom you refer?
[DPF: I highlighted his otherwise unreported statements on Back Benches that we should set up a prisoner of war camp near Wairarou as a prison, and feed prisoners for 75c a day.
Now I am pretty hard line on law & order, but that made even me blanch]
November 18th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Any particular lefties been criticising the EFA or what? Just Goff?
November 18th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
If you want constructive criticism watch Bomber and his far left wing nut job guests on Alt TV at the moment.
Apparently Key is part of some vast neo conservative conspiracy, reverting back to the 80′s failed policies, got very short in a short space of time by doing nothing.
Along with that Winnie was picked on by the media (who are right wing) and getting him out of Parliment was part of a long planned approach.
And that National and ACT manipulated MMP by deciding which part of the right wing vote to go after.
November 18th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
Hey d’ya think lefties would be criticising it if they’d won?
They don’t care how bad it is, they only care because it really really cost them since (giggle) somehow they lost their big donars whom they’d expressly provided for via 11th hour select-committee revision. Oh dear.
Cry me a river, lefties. The EFA reform is not a priority, but I bet that when Key decides to put it on the agenda when he’s good and ready, he does it in the way YOU should have done in the first place with such a constitutionally sensitive piece. Far more than you deserve, but I bet he seeks to build a wide consensus with open debate.
You lefties pretend in your lying, underhand and sinister way to be of the people and for the people. This action – a very serious one despite the continued ignorance amongst the reef-fish – proved that claim to be smellier than a 10-day old schnapper.
We won, you lost. Fuck you. Don’t EVER try that again with OUR democracy you lefty arseholes.
November 18th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
reid: “We won, you lost. Fuck you.”
That’s the spirit!
November 18th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Constructive criticism welcome? Good on you David. After all, it’s not possible to have debate and discussion without it.
This new era will probaly feel a bit weird for Kiwiblog regulars – first reactions to new government policy will now have to be
not 
However, brickbats can still be saved for critics of the new government.
So, as a wee test of how far you want to take this concept – how about posting and inviting comments on Tim Watkin’s latest blog over at Pundit …
http://www.pundit.co.nz/content/asking-mean-questions-about-the-coalition-deals
November 18th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
“We won, you lost. Fuck you.”
Nice.
“OUR democracy”
Here’s the thing – it’s the lefties’ democracy too. One leftie, one rightie, two votes each. Where’s this “we” you’re speaking for, exactly?
“I bet that when Key decides to put it on the agenda…”
You presume a great deal. Luckily you’re not basing your whole argument on one presumption. Oh no, wait…
“You lefties pretend in your lying, underhand and sinister way…”
Not that you’re generalizing people though? Only a dirty leftie would do that…
“Far more than you deserve…”
Which would be what, exactly? 10 years inside for all Labour voters? Or just party members? Or just the MPs? Is it time for a little counter-reformation, in Reid’s eyes? Complete with burnings at the stake for those that won’t convert?
November 18th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Portia – angry little despots will always find something to be angry about, never fear…
November 18th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
DPF – I’m sure you will be just as tough on the Government as the Standard was on the previous one.
[DPF: You mean I have to defend Winston?
]
November 18th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Ratbiter:
Thanks, I was pretty proud of it.
Both of us Rb. Honestly, are you thick? This means one of us doesn’t get to decide what happens by themselves. Which is EXACTLY what you arseholes decided to try.
I was more making a point in a humorous way than writing a uni essay Rb. Stream of consciousness you know, but I claim fair comment based on evidence. The way Key’s behaved so far, it would be extremely surprising if he chose to act in the same way Liarbore did on this issue, wouldn’t you agree? Oh no, wait, you probably wouldn’t. Luckily however, I don’t give a shit.
Yes a dirty leftie would do that Rb, but sinister is from the dictionary and lying and underhand is from general and repeated observation beyond doubt and quite provable. I have lots of examples just waiting to be wheeled out, when I can be arsed.
Crikey Rb are you fucking blind? After what you lefties tried to do, to OUR democracy (hope we’ve cleared that one up), it would be entirely understandable and absolutely deserving for all of you lefties and I mean that in the most general way possible, to receive a serve of the same. However I predict you’ll find that unlike the displays of vengeful Hulun (e.g. in the way she deliberately humiliated Tariana after being spurned), Key has not a vengeful bone in his body.
Sometimes I find lefties mistake strong invective expressed on a blog, for real anger. Personally that’s amusing to me and I laugh and laugh.
November 18th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Toad, David Garrett made an analogy and, everyone who cannot reason, thought he made an identity claim. Of course the the reason for the mass hysteria was that the analogy was on a particular secular sacred cow that one must never ever criticise no matter how flawed an argument advanced for it might be. Further, even when one isn’t actually criticising it, like Garrett who just made an analogy and was in fact criticising something else, it must not be possible for the intellectually challenged to even think that you might have criticised it.
(I just blogged on it so if you want links to the “scandal”…)
November 18th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
DPF: re: your last paragraph: I had an interesting conversation tonight with a friend of mine who is a life-long Labour supporter (ironically a maori female business-woman) and I described my hopes for a new government t to reflect the very Kiwi idea of community-ism rather than communism.
There is a difference, and it depends on the most successful economic model for our small country – hence my vote for Key. If they get caught in the crap that I saw the Shipley government in when I first returned in 1998, then . . .
We are lucky to live in a small, rich country (and personally in a provincial town – Nelson) where we can afford to look after people and have to.
I think the idealogues should travel more.
November 19th, 2008 at 7:17 am
It’s like ‘Christianity versus Islam’ isn’t it? ie Christianity has the spirit of self-examination built into that Islam lacks? (Start the car…)
The reason kiwiblog (and perhaps elements of the ‘right’) are ‘better than say the VDS and elements of the left – is that kiwiblog accomodates, encourages and accepts a wider variety of views, and accepts that you can praise or deride as you see fit, without getting some plonker writing a mini-essay in bold print about how ‘fair ‘they are or their ‘atttitude’ towards ‘trolls’ etc everytime. Not that it ever happened to me becasue I am a skilled wordsmith who just sails provocatively close to the envelope without burning my feathers.
Or something.
Ergo kiwiblog is the best blog we have – after MWT of course.
November 19th, 2008 at 8:40 am
DPF – I am certain that this government is nowhere near as ‘blue’ as your own political position (and certainly nowhere near as much as the more rabid of the regulars to this site) – so that should mean PLENTY of criticism every time JK rolls out another socialist policy. If you fail at that, then the forum here immediately becomes redundant as a right wing political blog, and just becomes are Standardista type lackey to the party of choice. I trust you will keep your integrity intact however…
November 19th, 2008 at 9:03 am
New Zealand is small country struggling to stay in the developed world, lets not fool ourselves.
The struggle facing New Zealand in one respect is that of relevancy i.e. how to stay relevant in the international community. Lange gave New Zealand moral and ethical relevancy during his leadership through the nuclear free policies and also the reforms of the fucked up socialist state that New Zeland had become post the commies and the facists. We have been coasting on that legacy for far too long, now I’m not suggesting economic suicide by anti-anything policies (like oil or meat as the greens would lead us towards) but New Zealand needs to reinvent itself in terms of relevancy in the international community, endless Hakas will only go so far.
The other struggle that New Zealand faces is that of economic development and productivity growth, dirty filthy concepts to the last government we know, nothwithstanding, items that need to be addressed.
So Two key areas of government policy that need strong development:
1) External promotion, positioning and international relations.
2) Domestic economic reform.
Go for it New Zealand.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:15 am
Another criticism of the new government: their plan to get solo parents on the Domestic Purposes Benefit into work will result in more fatherless children.
http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/11/19/plans-to-get-solo-parents-to-work-will-backfire/
November 19th, 2008 at 11:07 am
Ironic, isn’t it, that the only ministry to be discontinued is the Ministry of Rural Affairs? National, who claim to own provincial and rural NZ, should think again about this.
All the breast beating that’s going on about export led recovery, increasing productivity, and the importance of the rural economy for NZ and then they axe Rural Affairs, the only outfit that has shown any interest in rural community enhancement and policy development.
Yep, we sure need a Minister for the Rugby World Cup, horse racing and the National Library – but health and education services for rural, can look after themselves.
Good on Rural Women New Zealand for highlighting this.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Kiwipol
Your premise for solo mothers getting pregnant to stay on the benefit may be correct for some.
I’m not sure that is true for all solo parents on the benefit though.
Another option might be to require further education for future employment and or P/T job skills placement.
Incremental change as options rather than hard up movement.
Remember not all solo parents on the benefit want to be there, to them it is a hand up not a hand out.
Stephen Franks say’s “one must not do harm” when writing laws and that could be applied to policy too.
We want long term beneficiaries in long term employment.
We want Solo parents to do the best that they can do in bringing up their children otherwise it costs us as a society so much more in the long run.
How we do it, is as important as doing it.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:39 am
I will be curious to see the evolution of this blog now, for sure. It’s going to change, that is obvious, since DPF makes no secret of his alignment with the elected government. I’m not so sure about most of the commenters, since most of them are just mentally blocked out by reason of seldom actually posting any new content. My feeling was that they are more aligned with the government than the previous one. Will the tone become less shrill? Will railing against lefties in government every second sentence switch to jeering at lefties out of government, or will it switch to the lefties that can be found as malcontents within the government? Or will it stop, and move away from railing and jeering?
DPF will set the tone on that. The choice of thread topics will guide discussion. I’m hardly expecting to see any vendetta style series of threads like the ones on campaign financing that dominated almost an entire year here. Which will be an improvement. But it may not attract anywhere near the level of interest amongst the regulars. Watching this space.
November 19th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
I’ve read Kiwiblog for a while and only ever posted a few times, but I have never been attacked personally if I said anything that someone else might disagree with, unlike on Scoop where rabid lefties will attack anything and anyone that questions their worship of Gordon Campbell’s opinions and Labour.
DPF, you blog and mangement of the site is something to be proud of. The fact Kiwiblog is the number one blog in NZ, bares that out. Keep it up and question everything, even a Nat led govt.
November 19th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
I agree – we must make sure we keep the nats on their toes – they are of the same breed – ie politicians are politicians and its in their genes to act alike
November 19th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Did you say something that anyone here actually DID disagree with? Try it.
November 19th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
[DPF: I highlighted his otherwise unreported statements on Back Benches that we should set up a prisoner of war camp near Wairarou as a prison, and feed prisoners for 75c a day.
I'm not so sure it couldn't be done. A Few decades back they used to have efficient Prison Farms in that area and fertility has probably improved since then.. I don't know the present situation but one thing that has changed is the quality of the prisoner(or worker) for the worse.
November 19th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Work does bring dignity and where possible we should make prisoners work for their own dignity.
Whilst offsetting their cost to the community.
Education to the next level they are capable of would also help their dignity and employ ability.
in fact trade training would probably pay back incalculably.
the resourcing to accomplish this would be appreciable compared to what we spending now..
the question is Is it worth it?
I say yes for those who want it and and make the effort to grow.
Rehabilitation abck into society must be the goal.
For those who don’t, or reoffend lock them up for longer.
Maybe even cheap private prisons where shit happens.
hell we could even outsource it to China as part of a free trade deal.
November 20th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
re ” Ben Wilson (322) Vote: 0 0 Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
“Did you say something that anyone here actually DID disagree with? Try it.”
Yes I have. It’s nice to have been argued with based upon the the facts not the personalities.