So there WAS Maori sovereignty then. Either there was or there wasn’t. You cannot say “there was none” then say “there was some”. And while I know there is a lot of argument about the issue but it is debatable that the Maori chiefs understood or believed that they were throwing away (or ceding) their sovereignty.
I have not argued at any point that there wasn’t Maori sovreignty, in fact the treaty couldn’t exist without it. The British must have accepted that sovereignty otherwise they wouldn’t have drawn the document up in the first place.
The Maori chiefs knew exactly what they were signing – if you have ever been to the Treaty grounds (at Waitangi – the one that Labour wanted to bring under DOC management because they don’t like the truth being told either) then you would have a clear understanding of the issues as they stood at the time that the treaty was signed, not when it’s had a guilt-ridden 20th century interpretation applied to it.

“It works fairly well in the US with Native American tribes.”

The fuck it does.

Of course there was an invasion. The process may have taken place over a long period of time, but take place it did. The fact that sovereignty now rests with the British Crown, and that British colonials make up the majority of the population, is clear proof. More proof would be the Maori wars. If there was no invasion, and Maori, as you claim, were largely happy with colonization, then why the armed resistance? Generally speaking, people do not engage in armed resistance against something they are happy about.

“there was no Maori sovereignty other than that which was ceded to the British”

So there WAS Maori sovereignty then. Either there was or there wasn’t. You cannot say “there was none” then say “there was some”. And while I know there is a lot of argument about the issue but it is debatable that the Maori chiefs understood or believed that they were throwing away (or ceding) their sovereignty.

I think your the one perverting history.

The biggest issue that Maori face (and always have) is that there has never been a shortage of money and resources within Maoridom – it’s the distribution of that wealth that is the issue and always has been. Even going back to last century the tribal elders and ‘high born’ were very well off and they still are. Maori really need to stop blaming the pakeha for problems that are of their own making. If anything the Treaty made it easier for Maori to escape the strictures of their own tribal bounds, not hindered it. It’s a shame that many of them never realised it.

While Maori may have had some benefit from the Treaty, that does not change the central facts of invasion and colonization, and it is these facts that must be acknowledged if we are to move forward, and acknowledged in such a way that involves some real redress, not just in terms of Treaty settlements, but also some form of devolved Maori sovereignty.

Because as well as the supposed benefits you claim there has also been deep social destruction and breakdown, entrenched poverty, and until very recently a lack of real political power.

“There is little to be gained by attempting to relitigate history”

Little for you perhaps, but possibly a great deal more for Maori. There is nothing to be gained from ignoring history and pretending that Maori are just going to accept a “one law for all” or a “one political system for all” ideology. They won’t. Nor should they. So the problem is not going to go away no matter how many laws are passed.

Anything that decentralizes political power and promotes localism is a good thing imho. The centralised “one law for all” managerial State is a purely modernist/liberal creation. At its founding that US was a decentralized federal system in which individual states exercised a degree of local sovereignty. The centralization that has since occurred is one of the issues that US conservatives were concerned about (at least until Bush), and one we should be concerned about here in NZ.

Pretend that New Zealand history and the Maori experience of that history (in terms of invasion and colonisation) can be swept under the carpet if we just pretend to be one people and pass laws enforcing that.
And this is part of the distortion. What is so conveniently forgotten by Maori is that the treaty provided them protection – from other tribes and from other invading forces (principally the French). There is no doubt that both sides gained from the deal and it would be churlish not to admit that the British gained more than the Maori, but you can’t extract it from the geopolitics of the time.

Many Maori were sick of the attacks by other tribes and were willing signatories to the Treaty, but this is often overlooked. They were happy to share their lands in return for the support and protection that came with it. There were times that Maori didn’t have equal participation in the political process, but that time is long gone and it’s time that we all moved forward (as i have quoted you at the top).

But that moving on involves an acceptance (which i have yet to witness) that Maori actually gained from the Treaty as well. There is little to be gained by attempting to relitigate history – and the Maori seats should be abolished at the time that the final treaty settlements are completed, along with a written constitution that embodies the (equal) rights of all citizens of New Zealand.

Labours tactics have completely backfired against them and will not be repeated by any party for many decades.

Hopefully, most of the old guard will be gone shortly including Jim Anderton who is a gross case for introducing a length of service bill for MP’s. If he dies in office at 70, I will be mortified.

so far there’s been no talk of consultants in the beehive getting the chop and they need to be prioritised quickly and sharply.

Then downsize parliament.

Beuraucracy is the scourge of this country and no govt is facing it head on.

Spending on beuracracy is why there is so much unemployed and it is those who get the blame as the scape goats

Surely we’re too educated now to be taking that crap!

and we need more heartland Kiwi’s in parliament intead of soulless intellectuals!!!

I find the appointment of Pita Sharples to the Maori affairs portfolio and his willingness to accept that position to be one of the most fascinating things to come out of this election.

For years Maori have blamed the white man for all their woes, they have also said that the portfolio is under resourced.

Assuming that the Maori party have obtained an agreement to better fund Maori affairs I would say that Key and the Nat’s have effectively neutralized the under performance of Maori for at least the next three years, it will be interesting to see who they will blame now.

“The Maori party have repeatedly accused white New Zealanders of being colonialists”

Umm…thats because they are. Tariana sometimes says things that I think are wrong, but on that one issue at least she is simply stating what should be a blindingly obvious fact.

You’re talking about pushmepullu… he has his own blindingly obvious facts & reality.

Umm…thats because they are. Tariana sometimes says things that I think are wrong, but on that one issue at least she is simply stating what should be a blindingly obvious fact.

Like or not the New Zealand state IS a colonial entity. You came, you saw, you conquered. Thats historical fact. You established a political regime that was wise enough to include the conquered people as partners, but it does not change the fact that it is a colonial arrangement with a conquered people. You invaded someone else’s nation. There is no denying that, and hiding behind “classical liberalism” (itself a British invention and therefore a colonial import) does not change the fact.

The question is where to go from there?

New Zealand really has only three choices:

Go back and return the whole country to Maori tribal sovereignty, as some of the more extreme Maori radicals want to do. Clearly not a realistic or desirable option.

Pretend that New Zealand history and the Maori experience of that history (in terms of invasion and colonisation) can be swept under the carpet if we just pretend to be one people and pass laws enforcing that. Now that option is one thats popular with some on the right, but the result of it would be to chase Maori permanently into the hands of the left, or worse into far more extreme radicalism. Thats not a recipe for long term electoral success for National (unless BlairM has a magic formula for making white people breed more), and its not a long term recipe for success as a country.

Or, NZ can try and find a way through the problems by working with Maori to try and find solutions that are reasonable and acceptable to most kiwis.

Instead, Key has brought in the odious self promoter Dunne and a bunch of racists, where one of the co-leaders (groan) has accused European NZers of committing genocide against the Maori (remember the holocaust comments?) and is so weakly deceptive that she was caught lying prone in the back of a government car to avoid being seen when she left a meeting with Helen Klark. Turia is also an advocate for Maori Sovereignty. There’s no way any responsible politician should be entering into any kind of agreement with this scheming shifty charlatan, racist and opportunist.

So now we have the creep Dunnne happily ensconced AGAIN (man that’s such a piss off) the Maori seats entrenched for the term of this election and most probably for ever, a deceitful racist with her face plastered all over the news, and for what?? To deny ACT a degree of influence.

I say bring back Brash. Its too late of course, but I have always thought John Key’s political incoherency would make him an ineffective leader, and I reckon this flawed and politically damaging agreement proves I was right. It is incredulous to me that Key is ready to commit NZ to the tragedy of the entrenchment of the Maori seats, and the seemingly never ending irritation of Dunne, merely to hobble ACT and Roger Douglas, the only people with the nous to fix NZ’s economic problems. Pretty piss poor I reckon.

Having wandered around the hikoi that rocked up to parliament there were certainly a lot of people there whose big issue was the manner in which Helen Clark had carried out the process. It’s worth recalling that this was the issue that gave rise to the founding of the Maori party. Divisivness is not limitied to white conservatives it would seem.

Well done Helen, you arrogance and spite has finnaly created a New Zealand government that represents a substantial majority of its people.

And you’re not one of them.

Sweet.

Easy to see why – they would be toasted but it still rankles.

I’m gob smacked they took Maori Affairs – this wont last surely as cabinel collective responsibility applies to a Minister’s portfolio whether they are in or out of cabinet and Maori Affairs is almost by definition the entire Maori Pary manifesto.

The Maori party have repeatedly accused white New Zealanders of being colonialists, imperialists and racists. That’s you and me, DPF. I’m not sure what school of thought you come from, but classic liberals like me view anybody who tars others with negative epithets just because of their skin colour as RACIST

As for jail terms, they can talk all they want, but last I checked treason was illegal – and advocating policies that will weaken the country’s ability to defend itself in a time of war are definitely treasonous.

And by the by, I don’t think my views are unpopular – the fact that National and ACT were voted in with such a resounding majority last weekend seems to show there are many who agree with me. Voters didn’t seem to think that the Maori party was necessary – a shame some politicians seem to think otherwise.

Mark my words, Key and those who support him will have cause to bitterly regret this day, soon to live in infamy, as a surrender to extremism.

Correct. That anyone could say: what hatred? what racism? about the moari party, now, shows the same political myopia as the residents of The Standard. Shame.

“A Little Co-operation”

Translation: NZ run by committee with all the attendant failure of committees. Compromise after compromise, a watering down of direction and result – where any final result is actually achieved.

The only good news of this whole feel good frenzy is that it isn’t a Labour coalition.

The Clarkist era is over.