Nia Glassie’s hell
Catherine Masters in the Herald has written a story bringing together all the different elements of the hell that was Nia Glassie’s final days.
There have been a number of high profile abuse cases, but this is the one that I think I will never forget.
Other deaths of toddlers have been awful, but due to a mixture of neglect and violence. The Glassie case can only be seen as group sadistic torture.
I don’t want to politicise this awful case, but National had pledged to bring in a sentence of life without parole for the worst killers – they estimate it would be used only two or three times a year. This would be one of those cases – those responsible and found guilty of murder should never ever be let out. If you read the story, you will see that redemption and rehabilitation do not form part of this story.
Some extracts from the sad sad story:
What was done to Nia was callous and violent, perpetrated by a group of no-hopers who lived and partied together, who smoked pot together and who for one reason or another didn’t like the little girl they failed to protect.
Nia Maria Glassie was three. They thought she was ugly.
They kicked Nia in the head, and she points to the front of her head.
Sometimes Nia would bleed but they don’t care about it. They just keep on smashing her, she says.
They put her in the corner and they kick her to the wall and she gets bumps on her head.
The worst thing, in this child’s mind, was when Michael Curtis lifted Nia to the ceiling by her neck and her hips and when she touched the ceiling, he let her go.
Another child tells how they spun Nia on the clothesline as fast as they could. Her voice is soft and shy.
They put her into the drier, too, she says.
And the defendants:
The defendants don’t look appalled. Perhaps they’re bored. Though, sometimes in court they laughed and whispered and often they tried to stare down the reporters covering the trial.
The torture again:
The woman asks the second girl more about the clothes drier.
You turn it right up, replies the girl, and it gets hot then it dries your clothes.
Nia was screaming, she says, so they put her on the clothesline and they spinned her as fast as they could so she could fall off.
She did fall off, the little girl says. Three times. On her head.
They put Nia in the drier like “a ball”, the girl says.
They turned the switch, the one with lots of numbers on it, up too high and Nia kicked the door open but they just put her legs back in. …
And back to those responsible:
The abuse was normalised and it escalated. The brothers didn’t play sport or work, there was booze and pot, though no suggestion of P.
They didn’t have much money so were home a lot and found ways to entertain themselves. …
Lisa Kuka, it seems, grew from a nice little girl into a woman whose life revolves around men and who demonstrated a frightening submission to them.
She was the 17th of 19 children. …
I wish there were simple answers to these horrors. Sadly there are not.
UPDATE: Dave Crampton at Big News has a long post on the background to the Glassie household.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:19 am
There is nothing I can say or write that can make any sense of what happened to that poor child.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:22 am
These animals are denied the justice that many NZers feel they deserve. Let’s hope their soon-to-be fellow inmates don’t withhold their own special version of justice.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:23 am
The death penalty would not bring this tortured child back, but it would spell out to moral retards that society regards this abuse as beyond contemptible and unacceptable, but as absolutely intolerable. The monsters who tortured this poor child do not deserve one cent of taxpayer support beyond the cost of a rope and a hangman.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:38 am
There are solutions to prevent this type of child abuse from happening again, what we need is
a commitment to change and a plan.
Judges should be allowed to hand down a “no children ruling” meaning any of these people responsible for this horror will never ever be allowed to have guardianship of a child again. If they continue to breed, then all subsequent children will be taken away at birth and any benefits stopped immediately.
Any child whose guardian is receiving a benefit should be required to have that child assessed by a health professional 4 times a year up until the age of 3 and yearly there after. This will enable signs of abuse (and learning difficulties etc) to be picked up earlier.
All parents receiving a benefit should also receive mandatory parenting courses.
Midwives and those involved with Maternity Care must be able to comment on any cases where they feel a baby may not be going to a suitable home. This may have helped save the Kahui Twins
Any parent using illegal drugs should know that they can have their children removed from them until mandatory drug tests
prove they are clean
Finally the community needs to speak up if they see child abuse happening, (and no Sue Bradford, smacking your child in the supermarket when they are having a tantrum is not child abuse)
Interestingly I watched TV this morning and they were interviewing someone who said
this type of abuse is 1600% more likely to occur in homes where the parents aren’t married.
I believe it is not rocket science to solve this issue, but it will take a shift in attitude and a new government.
(Which thankfully we now have)
On election day I voted with this little girl close to my heart.
We should never, ever accept this type of child abuse within NZ ever again.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:39 am
I have wondered, in light of recent cases including the Kahui twins, that maybe that infanticide should be treated (legally) different to murder.
That might extend to giving accused/defendants less legal rights than they do in a murder case (less ability to erect a wall-of-silence), and more punitive sentences.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:46 am
as Ive said, this is another case where not one of the people who lived in that house who got themselves into relationships are married. None of the adults currently live with their partners now that one of them is in custody. Not one of their children live with their mother and their father. Most of their kids don’t live with either.
Neither did Wiremu Curtis. Putting these people in one house together was a recipe for disaster.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:46 am
democracymum – I’ve posted this research reference before… but it’s as relevant as ever.
It shows that the incidence of child death and injury rises as the family structure breaks down to look less like a traditional biological dad+mum+kids. Table 2 on Page 5 is particularly disturbing.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Lamentably child killing abusers don’t seem to attract the type of severe sentences meted out to other monsters convicted for the most malevolent of murders (with the exception of the 28 years Bruce Howse received for slaughtering his stepdaughters Saliel and Olypia Jetson).
Part of me wants life without parole for these sub-humans and I know the parole board is likely to keep them in longer than their non-parole sentence, however it is probable the term imposed is unlikely to match the diabolical nature of the crime. Torturing a toddler to death over a lengthy period is about as base as humanity descends.
Along with their term, hard labour or starvation should be the choices offered to these creatures.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:55 am
David is right — there are probably no simple answers or easy answers to horrific child abuse. However I think that the problem of child abuse could be significantly reduced by the following measures –
1) re instituting marriage as the normal arrangement for the bearing and raising of children. Apparently the chances of abuse happening in a home rise significantly when the parents are not married.
2) bring back capital punishment for murder.
3) bring back corporal punishment — to restore the parental authority at home and the teachers authority at school. Taking away corporal punishment seems to increase violence rather than diminish it. Our schools are a good example of this.
4) can I suggest we go to church? The problem is philosophical — are we basically good or are we sinners in need of a saviour? My feeling is these problems will grow more and more each year unless we have a spiritual renewal. At the most fundamental level I believe the problem in New Zealand society is spiritual.
5) and finally can we be a little more conservative about our behaviour and the laws we introduce? We have opened the floodgates on gambling, prostitution, pornography and alcohol. Perhaps the so-called wowsers were right? Perhaps we do need restrictions and limits? If this horrific case of child abuse shows us any thing, it shows us that human nature is capable of deep depravity and violence. Maybe we need stricter laws to protect us from ourselves?
November 19th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Warning shots to the head would be a good start.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:57 am
Why does nobody dare to say that these cases tend to take place in a rather narrow demography, and when looked at in the context of individual “family” circumstances, can be predicted with a high probability to take place within an even smaller subset of that demography. Often the individuals involved have in some way already been under scrutiny of authorities, that unfortunately are either too PC, don’t exchange information, have no access to information from other agencies etc.
In the end also, the welfare system in fact allows this small subset of an already troubled demography to continue its lifestyle (or whatever one could call it), perhaps even encourages it in a sad, cynical way.
Long term, only a return to much higher individual responsibility and morality will be able to extinguish these excesses. Short term, probably only sterilization of the individuals that are part of the high risk group will do. Although it is an extreme way of approaching it, it would seem that certain individuals in certain circumstances should not be allowed to procreate, instead of being rewarded to do so.
This specific case of course goes beyond the individuals involved, but is an indictment of a society that allows the set of circumstances that lead to these horrendous crimes. The comments by Cindy Kiro speak volumes in that respect, even the death of this poor child is used to push some political cause that has absolutely nothing to do with what is really behind this crime.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Do any of you remember the North and South article Deborah Coddington wrote about James Whakareru?
I have never been able to finish the article as it affects me so much, which I find surprising as I’ve seen abuse and death and mutilation in my life experience. The first time I read it It put me sitting on the loo with him hearing the footsteps coming down the hall and I started shaking and had to put the mag down.
I hate to think what it must have been like for little Nia or Lily Bing?
Incidently Lily Bing had an std when she died and no male who had access to her was tested and typed to link the virus’s dna…..
What is clear is that these offenders do fit certain profiles and both the individuals, families and children are known to different agencies and authorities.
Instead of pinging every Kiwi family with stupid laws like The Dunne-Key anti-smacking amendments John Key and National should be better focusing our limited resources on the 7% of the population that make up these families at risk.
We should be all over these people with a wet blanket that clings to every part of their lives.
We owe it to them if we really are a caring society and we owe it to the kids at risk.
It is racist to not do everything we can to stop the behaviour.
nailing ordinary moms and dads as Key and Dunne did for Helen and Sue is bullshit.
lets scope the ones who need it.
November 19th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Well at least they didn’t smack her!
Sorry for that below the belt comment, but it shows how that s59 legislation was really trying to close the Stable Door, long after the Horse has bolted.
There are similar cases popping up all over the World. The baseline issues are the same.
1) Breakdown of the Nuclear Family
Drugs or Alcohol being evident in all cases
2) Dependency Culture ingrained and a feeling of worthlessness in loose groups of adults.
3) Political Correctness destroying normal Family discipline. (In the the case of the Perps)
4) Marriage as a dependable convention having no status, or indeed tax advantages.
5) Liberal sentencing along the way to this type of abject mayhem.
6) Neighbourhoods having no positive role to help due to fear and suspicion.
7) Police and Social Services hands tied due to political pressure from Liberals.
There is a way forward, but it will take a Generation to free the ‘No Hopers’ from a sentence of self destructiveness.
Liberal policies have never worked, and never will.
Only when there is a clear view of the Consequences of one’s actions will they learn.
Education, Support, and Opportunity.
The Devil has always made the most of Idle Hands!
November 19th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Chthoniid
“I have wondered, in light of recent cases including the Kahui twins, that maybe that infanticide should be treated (legally) different to murder.”
I think we should be very wary of subsetting murder as where could that lead to?
Maybe if we treated murder more seriously then your comment wouldn’t have been made in the first place.
Life without parole seems fair.
Or maybe the victims or their immediate family should have the final say on whethr the offender should be allowed parole (on a yr by yr basis).
November 19th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
The biggest comment I have is that in the perverse criminal code, because the child was not sexually abused the Maori inmates will probably shrug their shoulders and walk away. (although these guys are pedophiles) It’s only Maori who mete out justice in jail. and they will probably be light on these fellows, after all, they’ll be the boys.
A maori attacked a white man in Mt Eden whose dog savaged a child. Act MP Donna Awatwere was left unscathed in prison after giving thousands to her whanau that was supposed to be directed at childrens initiatives.
Maori are basically pretty safe going to jail. But Maori are also very fickle. The guy who shot the manager at the red fox was killed in jail. Not because of the manager, but simply that Black Power never liked the guy.
To sum it up, Maori justice can be best described by the moronic statement of the grandfather after the court case
“It sucks!”
November 19th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
That we rely or think we can on so called Maori justice in jail is sicker than not dealing properly with he offenders and the problem in the first place.
November 19th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Obama will fix it.
November 19th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
“nailing ordinary moms and dads as Key and Dunne did for Helen and Sue is bullshit.
lets scope the ones who need it.”
Quote of the week.
November 19th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
I see there was an old, white, silver-haired man on tv1 this morning espousing how this sort of thing almost never happens in a “proper” nuclear family with mum, dad and the kids. As though being an inhuman scumbag is somehow a result of “undesirable” domestic circumstances, rather than a person’s own basic sense of basic right and wrong.
Interesting that people are willing to publicly talk about what sort of families are better for children and should be encouraged, but at the same time, S.59 of the crimes act was anathema. We don’t want to be told how to raise OUR kids, but we DO want to tell other people they aren’t as fit to be raising kids as we are…?
November 19th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
“I don’t want to politicise this awful case,”
Too late DPF, that useless oxygen thief Cindy Kiro has already done that on behalf of the left.
She just could not help herself when she made comments yesterday linking this case with the section 59 amendment, it seems that EVERYTHING is political to these low life scum from the left, any price will be paid and any sacrifice will be made just as long as they get their message out there.
We here at Kiwiblog can piss and moan as much as we like, we can get as angry and aggressive yet NOTHING will change, the next Nia Glassy or Kahui twins are just around the corner.
When that happens we will see the same type of comments from the same people yet our kids are still going to die, make no mistake neither Labour or the Nat’s can or will do anything about it, sure they might pass a few laws and spout aggressive and determined sound bites but the reality is that (for differing reasons) Labour and National will continue to stick their heads in the sand.
Before we do anything about toughening up the laws or waste more money on “public education” we need to do something about the barriers that get in the way of fixing this behaviour, the first (and therefore the reason it will not happen) is to drop all the PC bullshit.
First we have to admit that this behaviour is fed by drugs, booze and the beneficiary lifestyle, secondly we need to admit that it is largely a Maori problem and given the fact that Maori have done nothing about it child murder is going to continue.
Child murder is going to continue because the reality is that neither Labour or National want to do what needs to be done, the Nat’s will not do it lest they upset their coalition partner, Maori seem to be more worried about that stupid thing they call “Mana” than they are about stopping the death of kids, for the Nat’s to really get on top of this it would mean they would have to stop being PC and tell the truth, if they had the guts they would come out and say “this is a Maori issue and as such we are going to target Maori families”.
That ladies and gentlemen is why NOTHING will be done, these poor kids are going to keep being killed simply because both the left and the right of our politics are too sacred it will cost them votes and they are not brave enough to toss off the shackles of political correctness.
November 19th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Turpin- yeah, I remember the Whakareru case. Very sad. I’ve been to unpleasant spots on the planet and come face-to-face with death in the past. Children are so much harder to cope with. And having children of your own changes your attitude also.
As to subsets of murder/killings, we kind of have that with different treatments already. Manslaughter is legally different to murder for instance. Me, I react at a visceral level more to infanticide. It is already at some level, “different”.
I don’t see that treating infanticide differently to murder opens up any floodgates. I’m prepared to change my mind after some rumination, but I find myself (currently) comfortable with the suspects in infanticide cases getting less legal scope to create walls of silence and confusion.
Someone should be in prison for murdering the Kahui twins. Someone should have been charged with giving Lily Bing an STD. I pay taxes to put these sorts of people away in jail for very, very long periods of time.
November 19th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
There was abosulutely no reports of the offenders being harrassed in court. They should’ve been pelted with eggs for a start.!!
they were so smug starring down journalists and the stupid journo’s averted their eyes,, the cowards!!!
This is a sign Maori will let these pedophiles off lightly because the child wasn’t sexually abused
I’ll never forget Maori for this
They’re perverse.
November 19th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Morning Report had an interview with a member of the Curtis family who told Sean Plunket that these things happen. Some idiot then contacted MR to complain that Plunket was unfair in asking questions, as the Curtis family were upset by the boys being found gulity.
I find it hard to believe that anyone would defend these people
November 19th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Cindy Kiro thinks that we are too tolerant to violence and child abuse. I’ve got news for Ms Kiro…
http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2008/11/no-ms-kiro-we-dont.html
November 19th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
“Judges should be allowed to hand down a “no children ruling” meaning any of these people responsible for this horror will never ever be allowed to have guardianship of a child again. If they continue to breed, then all subsequent children will be taken away at birth and any benefits stopped immediately.”
I think CYFS do remove children from some parents immediately if they have particularly bad records. This needs to be increased though, as it is alarming how bad some parents are yet still continue to have children.
One of the interesting things in most developed countries are dysgenic trends, where basically those least able to look after themselves, let alone children, tend to have the most kids. I think in time the effects of this will be quite interesting and no doubt result in increasing welfare and crime.
November 19th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Meanwhile, in a conversation taking place on the planet Cindy Kiro and Sue Bradford come from!
“Hey, Bro!”
“What, Bro?”
“Do you really think we should be doing this to that little girl au?”
“Why you asking Cuz?”
“’cause the government passed a bill that says smacking kids is wrong, bro!”
“Aw, that’s right, we better stop then!”
November 19th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Cindy Kiro is lost in space and a total let down for kids, while CYFS are that dysfunctional they’re dangerous. Callous Cindy is always opening her stupid mouth after the ambulance has plummeted over the cliff. Can’t wait for the next horrific infanticide, I mean to say we’re fucking gold medalists at it !!!
November 19th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
“She just could not help herself when she made comments yesterday linking this case with the section 59 amendment,”
Big Brev
Would you kindly send the link or cut and past the quote?
November 19th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Storm parliament against the anti smacking law
Demand Sue Bradfords resignation
Bring back execution for those conviced of murder from corrobarated eye witness evidence.
Permanent life sentence for those found guilty without eye witness evidence.
November 19th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
When one does pimp – ie tell authorities, one is treated like a criminal for making a complaint. Last time I laid a complaint to cyfs I got a lawyers letter from the mothers lawyer claiming defamation. They were all boozed and on P – while 3 year old child ran around crying outside – locked out.
In cases of older kids , why would a teacher get involved when she/he knows the mother will have access to the records that disclose the complaint and then the teacher will be storked and beaten / raped/ stabbed/ robbed or worse by the parents associates. Go figure why people mind their own business – its all about self preservation it would seem not apathy.
For those who do and have complained/ reported, ask them how it backfired on them. Never the less I would report abuse of a child, but the last time I reported a crime the cop wrote in the file that I seemed to be obsessed over the crime because it was about the 3rd time I had reported a crime of a simular nature. mmmmmm.
I
November 19th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Chuck Bird – here ’tis
“New Zealand has a high tolerance to violence and much of the violence towards children is perpetrated in the name of discipline. There are no acceptable ways of hitting children.”
The link to her full media release is in my thread referred to on my 12.40pm post
November 19th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
I presume & hope that you don’t really mean that.
November 19th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
GLUTAEMUS…………is right on the knocker on every point he makes……….That apart Sterilisation should be the starting point possibly as a mitigation option prior to sentence…….David’s point about National’s Policy of Life means Life doesn’t mean much because the decision to impose the sentence is to be left to the Judge. It should be prescriptive. the Police Lay the charge, if the Jury convict the Judge has to impose the sentence.
November 19th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
The guilty offenders have been segregated from general population in jail
what a joke
they should’ve been seen scarred up as they entered the sentencing
I guess a strong case for separate jails
A white man would’ve been disabled by that stage.
November 19th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
democravy mum said..
“..Any parent using illegal drugs should know that they can have their children removed from them until mandatory drug tests
prove they are clean..”
what bullshit are you talking here..?
alcohol by far is the biggest prompter of domestic violence..ask the cops..
..so..going by your fucken twisted rationale..
..people who smoke cannabis should have their children taken from them..?
..and here is your second pile of horseshit..
“..Finally the community needs to speak up if they see child abuse happening, (and no Sue Bradford, smacking your child in the supermarket when they are having a tantrum is not child abuse)..”
just one of the benefits of removing the exemptions to common assault laws that permitted enabled parents/’caregivers’ to claim a defence of ‘reasonable force’ if accused of beating children..
..has been that we no longer see in supermarkets parents holding a toddler/young child up by one arm..
..while they whale into them with their open palm..
..as a person who has raised a couple of kids without ever smacking/hitting them..
..but also one who flares at the sight of others doing that..
..i used to have to resist going up and smacking them one..
..some things have changed with a new gummint..
..but one hasn’t..
..you are still totally full of shit..
..(ironically-named?) democracymum..
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 19th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Classic!
Here we are talking about the death of a child and the irrefutable links to booze and dope yet Phool seems more worried about spreading his litany of lies re dope.
Democracy Mum is right Phool, you and the rest of you dead heads who insist on smoking that shit have no right raising kids.
You would be do a far better job by going out to work everyday, that is the way to set an example for your kids and a way to keep your own mind occupied.
November 19th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
I see we have a bleeding liberal lefty in here judging by the negative karma
Probably a childless woman like her heroes Helen, and Sue.
November 19th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
clinthd
sadly we can do nothing for the wall of silence as we don;t have the french system where they are compelled to give testimony.
I’m just not comfortable with defining murder into categories.
I see the point in it but it seems to me that it ends up giving wriggle room.
I think one of the problems is we have drifted into not treating violence as seriously as we should.
when there is a pattern in someone’s offending they should be pinged harder I think.
it seems to me that the judiciary with the legal beagles are looking to do deals based on a strata only they seem to know.
i attended a paedophiles sentencing and it seems to me the judge went out of his way to look for a lighter sentence.
knowing the facts as i do now he should have got 7yrs and sat all 7 to my mind and be under supervision after to for 10yrs.
sadly we don’t do rehabilitation at all in Nz but that’s another thread.
November 19th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
happy jacko
surely you jest
the cop thought it strange you were obsessing over a crime against a child?
November 19th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
At the time this came out I was minding my 3 year old grandson. I literally felt sick and still do. I don’t believe it will be cured until such time as we start licensing people to have children. That is not practical now but perhaps in the future it might be possible to temporarily sterilise all baby girls. When they apply for reversal to have children their suitability will first be established and oversight of the child’s upbringing would be ongoing. While this might seem to be a violation of our rights and privacy the rights of the child have also to be considered. The family opf Nia Glassie seemed to consider she had no rights at all not even to life.
November 19th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
This low life Kiro exploits the murder of this innocent little girl to try and justify who support of the anti-smacking legislation. If she really cared about the welfare of children she would be calling for this paedophile to be charged. Instead she is doing her best to justify the police inaction.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10478186
Minor has baby: no charges laid
5:00AM Sunday November 25, 2007
By Stephen Cook
Police chose not to lay charges against a 21-year-old who fathered a child with a 13-year-old girl – even though he confessed to police he had been having sex with a minor.
The pregnancy was highlighted last week by Children’s Commissioner Cindy Kiro, who used the case to illustrate “the wall of silence” protecting people who committed child abuse.
The girl had started having sex from the age of 11 and Kiro claimed that no one in her family would come forward and shed any light on who was responsible.
However, the Herald on Sunday understands the father turned himself in to police but was given only a verbal warning by officers.
Rape Crisis is demanding answers about why police never charged the man with having sex with a minor. It says the police’s failure to do so sends extremely worrying mixed messages to teenagers.
A conviction for having sex with someone under the age of 12 carries a maximum prison term of 14 years. Having sex with someone under the age of 16 carries a 10-year maximum prison term.
Sources involved with the girl’s family told the Herald on Sunday the man had been involved in a sexual relationship with the girl since she was 11. When Child Youth and Family (CYF) became aware the girl was pregnant at 12, she was removed from the mother’s care and placed with a family member. Four months ago the girl gave birth. She was 13.
It is understood the 21-year-old is still involved in a relationship with the girl and has supervised visits with his son. During the day the baby is cared for by a family member, allowing the girl to remain at school.
A source told the Herald on Sunday the girl’s mother was aware her daughter’s relationship was of a sexual nature, but chose to do nothing about it. For five months, the girl had managed to hide the pregnancy, and authorities became involved only after being alerted to the case by the girl’s doctor.
It was then that CYF intervened. CYF is understood to still be monitoring the girl, but with the refusal of police to act in the case it is hamstrung over taking any action about her relationship with the baby’s father.
Asked about police protocols in the case of someone having sex with a minor, a spokesperson at Police National Headquarters said charges were laid only if there was sufficient evidence and proceeding with a case was in the public interest.
Rape Crisis spokeswoman Sandz Peipi said the fact the 21-year-old had been involved with the girl when she was only 11 was “disturbing and quite perverse”.
Whether the sex was consensual was irrelevant because of the girl’s age and the man should have been charged by police.
The fact he had admitted committing “statutory rape” meant police had more than sufficient evidence to go on, Peipi said. She was also surprised police did not believe it was in the “public interest” to lay charges.
November 19th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
People who do this sought of thing should have the ability to breed taken from them.
Judges should be able to order mandatory sterilisation in child abuse cases.
There should be all reasonable steps taken to rehabilitate delinquit families who have the potential to be child abusers. However, if they refuse to change, then CYPS should be able to apply to the courts for a sterilsation order.
This way we can purge this sort of scum from the gene-pool.
November 19th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
The people that did this are absolute fucking scum. May they rot in hell, or at least get the bash in jail.
And can people please not call them “animals”. From what I have seen on the National Geographic channel, animals do not torture and murder their offspring; humans do.
November 19th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Big Bruv is right in his summation
Until we weed out the people in our agencies “with the all parents are beaters mindset” we will never get this sorted out.
Cindy Kiro must go and all like her too.
That she considers 80% of Kiwi parents “beaters” as does Bradford and her ilk shows how wonky Helen Clark and Labour really were. But there is a bigger problem, they’ve infected most of parliament (112 of them).
We all know that Parents giving their kids a smack as discipline is a far cry from “beating” a child.
80% of parents polled that but what did John Key and Peter Dunne do?
Sided with the enemies of ordinary Kiwi families, yeah Mr Sensible and National the family party!
What’s worse, so did 110 other MP’s of all parties including the entire National caucus.
They applied their minds to the issue and chose to ping all the good loving parents along with the wankers.
As a consequence they push feel good PC Laws that doesn’t deal to the underlying problem but pings everyday ordinary Kiwi parents, the 80% who do a good to reasonable job of bringing their kids up.
To me they are more interested in looking like they are doing something than actually getting it done to those who commit the crimes.
and we vote for them!
so what happens?
When another kid gets killed by perpetrators they live with they all wring their hands and tut tut
When most of the kids and their family groups can be profiled, monitored and dealt too but do they advocate that?
Why are most of these kids brown and poor?
Why does our parliament allow the agencies to continue to not work together?
Why is Cindy Kiro and others not sacked and held to account for their talkfests and overseas trips.
As far as I am Cindy Kiro and her ilk are as responsible for the Nia Glassies of this world as the actual perpetrators because of the inaction by their politiking.
That includes ALL the MP’s who applied their minds and voted to scrap SEC 59 instead of dealing to the problem.
and especially John Key and Peter Dunne for being the figure heads.
It is illegal to smack a child for discipline not matter what the explanation notes say.
Key understand this, as does his whole caucus.
Which brings us to the nub.
Are we such a racist nation that we are happy that this continues and another little brown poor kid gets sacrificed at the alter of PC Bullshit with pretend agreements?
November 19th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
And not smacking them at all is an even further cry from it.
November 19th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Remind me, where does the “80%” come from?
November 19th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Chuck Bird
Thank you for this post.
I suppose it is too much to ask for
The CYF people being sacked for not laying charges against the perpetrator, Parents and Police on behalf of the child.
NZ Police management and officiating officers being charged with dereliction of duty and sacked.
Until we treat the law seriously and sanction to the level of seriousness we bring it into disrepute and hamstring those people who do honour it.
Let’s see John Key flip flop this one.
November 19th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Several above have pinpointed the central issue which is these people arise from a well-known demographic.
There has been no political will specifically to identify and target this demographic and you imagine what the media would say if, after this heat dies down, the govt announces such plans.
It’s not about punishment but rather, prevention. Furthermore the solution isn’t rocket science. Every thinking person has heard comments such as “it’s the 5% that commit 95% of crime.” I bet we could identify on this blog, in 5 minutes, almost every relevant demographic factor and in a further 5 minutes, identify what needs to be done.
Point is, the solution is well known and understood, it’s the will to implement it that’s the sticking point and this sticking point exists not just amongst politicians but amongst important public influencers like the media. It’s time for the media to change its PC spots and start doing for this issue what the Herald did with the EFA, for example.
It’s time for a similar media campaign, but this one is for keeps. No PC Psychobabble Bullshit allowed.
Doing nothing merely invites another case in a few years. Are we all prepared to have that on our consciences?
November 19th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
LLew
I agree as I posted 112 MP’s think the 80% are beaters that’s why they voted for the amendment.
they voted to ping ALL parents for smacking not just the Abusers.
The notes with the Act are just that, notes a guidence NOT law.
It is illegal to smack a child for discipline purposes which is what those in parliament who voted yes to it intended.
Only 8 voted against, the ACT party and 6 others.
I’m wrong 95+ % of Kiwi parents aren’t Abusers, thank you for the heads up!
November 19th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Reid
“doing nothing merely invites another case in a few years”.
Doing nothing makes us all culpable by association as we voted the Present parliament into their nice padded green seats and pension fund and other baubles.
Most of whom voted for PC bullshit in the last parliament.
The Agencies in this area need to be instructed by policy set by them.
so who’re we gonna call when the next Nia dies?
November 19th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
You’re welcome – but I’m confused (and can’t be arsed doing the math myself) where did the “80%” come from? I recall something but not the details (that gets worse with age BTW).
November 19th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Reid, it’s the family structure, rather than demographic that establishes the risk of harm being caused.
- remove the biological father and the risk increases.
- remove the biological mother and the risk increases.
- introduce non-father to household and the risk increases.
- introduce the use of illicit drugs in the household and the risk increases.
- having the caregiver dependent on welfare increases the risk.
- have a combination of the above conditions and the risk compounds exponentially.
it would take 60 seconds to set up spreadsheet model to assess the case-by-case risk. the problem with such a model is that it might show over-representation of ethnic groupings.
so big bruv is right on the money when he says “That ladies and gentlemen is why NOTHING will be done, these poor kids are going to keep being killed simply because both the left and the right of our politics are too sacred it will cost them votes and they are not brave enough to toss off the shackles of political correctness.”
November 19th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Turpin.
I know you are angered that National supported the bill. But let us not forget some salient points.
National did not support the bill in it’s tabled form.
The bill would have passed without National’s vote in any case.
National got an amendment giving police the ability to not prosecute if the action is inconsequential.
This was better than the alternative.
As an aside, if police will not prosecute a man who has sex with a 12 year old, then they are setting the bar very low in my opinion.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
If we had a govt brave enough to really do something about this they would immediately..
1. Replace the dole and DPB with vouchers.
2. Immediate investigation into long term DPB recipients including unannounced home visits and the immediate removal of any at risk kids.
3. Immediate work for the dole scheme to be implemented.
4. Order CYFS and Health workers to produce a list of the most at risk kids and demand that the parents prove why they should be allowed to keep their kids and associated benefits, the onus to be on the parents to prove they are up to the job.
5. Do not allow ANY cultural issues to get in the way of child care.
6. Fully fund foster care.
7. Introduce legislation that allows the state to order sterilisation of low life parents.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Let’s get real, the problem is not the soft laws, it is a racial one. Maoris are a violent race. A high percentage of violent crime in New Zealand is Maori. They don’t give a toss about the punishment.
And so New Zealand is a dangerous place to live.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Robert Black – I think you confuse causative and correlative analysis. Doing this just gives the PC brigade ammunition to reject science as being motivated by racial prejudice.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
slightly rightly
lets not do the quick step here.
National Voted for the bill as it is law now. Enmass.
It is illegal to smack a child for discipline purposes.
Giving the police the ability to not go forward still makes it illegal to give a child a smack.
Ordinary parents still get looked at by NZ police and CYF as if they are crims.
It has the desired affect of punishing parents for samcking and gives trauma to the family unit in that the “authorities can brand them “bad parents” and possibly take their kids off them.
Who says we won’t have Sue Bradford/Cindy Kiro clones at CYF and NZPolice in years to come?
It was better than the alternative?
What planet are you on?
If they hadn’t of voted they wouldn’t have made Kiwi parents criminals!
Helen and LiarLabour and the Goofy Greens would have carried the can fully in the elections.
National would have got a bigger majority and could have resinded it and written the law properly.
Not this mealy mouth flip flop crap coming from John Key now.
yes I am angry
angry at the very baseness of the mindset that can penalise all good decent Kiwi parents instead of dealing to the crims properly in a measured, constructive way.
That anger gets fueled every time I read trollop like you’ve just written, as it seems that you are unable to see the perfidy in John Keys’s and others mindsets in this issue.
If you think that we’re going to make any inroads on child abuse i hate to disabuse you but I don’t think so until we get back to basics.
most parents are great loving peolple.
A smack is not the same as beating and shouldn’t be illegal.
period.
Do no harm when writing law.
period.
subjecting ordinary Kiwi parents to CYF and NZpolice is not on.
period.
what don’t you understand about that?
November 19th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
The next stage of the unthinkable decline in society, thanks to the trashing of time-tested tradition;
Sweden now has had several cases of out-of-control kids murdering their parents.
The epidemic of murdered babies was unthinkable at one time, too.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Big Bruv
some good points here to start.
1. Replace the dole and DPB with vouchers
What does this actually accomplish?
.
2. Immediate investigation into long term DPB recipients including unannounced home visits and the immediate removal of any at risk kids.
Surely this is not the only criteria what about drug use and unmarried status?
Do you not think data sharing between agaencies to properly profile the risk elements first?
3. Immediate work for the dole scheme to be implemented.
What about study for dole?
What about solo parents who home school?
4. Order CYFS and Health workers to produce a list of the most at risk kids and demand that the parents prove why they should be allowed to keep their kids and associated benefits, the onus to be on the parents to prove they are up to the job.
Putting the onus on someone to prove they are a good parent is like making all parents crims for smacking their kids regardless of reason.
sorry I cannot support this like this. I would support this happening to parents with ahistory at CYF and NZPolice.
5. Do not allow ANY cultural issues to get in the way of child care.
Absolutely a kid is am kid not matter their colour or ethnic.
6. Fully fund foster care.
Isn’t it?
7. Introduce legislation that allows the state to order sterilisation of low life parents.
Whoa. stop right there.
Different discussion, different time.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Apropos: (Britain is having the same problems)
“An Age of Barbarism”, By Melanie Phillips, “The Spectator” 14 Nov 2008
“Twenty years ago, I started writing about the breakdown of the family, the systematic undermining of moral constraints and the ascendancy of ‘lifestyle choice’, a doctrine which forbade condemnation of any lifestyle as harmful. Non judgmentalism was now mandatory; the only judgment to be permitted henceforth was that judgment was discriminatory, and only disapproval was to be disapproved of. Stigma and shame were considered an affront to individual rights; disapproval of adultery or elective lone parenthood, for example, were dismissed as ‘Old Testament fundamentalism’.
During the past two decades, I warned repeatedly that the fragmentation of family life was in general a source of pain, damage and acute danger for children in particular but also the women in whose name modern feminists were promoting female independence from men; that mass fatherlessness was creating deserts of depravity and highly damaged children who were growing up to become highly damaged parents; that the collapse of social and moral controls was destroying the most fundamental values of civilised behaviour, with individuals raised in such emotional and moral chaos that they were incapable even of feeling the empathy with other people that is the very foundation of social relationships of the most basic kind; and that the welfare system was actually incentivising such wholesale destruction of individual lives and society itself.
Then as now, I was scorned and vilified by the ‘progressive ‘ intelligentsia. I had become reactionary, right-wing, ultra-right-wing, a harker-back to some mythical golden age of the fifties, a moraliser, an extremist, a bigot, a fascist, demented. Bien-pensant opinion spoke with one voice. Progressive politics meant the freedom to behave exactly as one wished in pursuit of instant gratification, and to destroy all external constraints, both formal and cultural, which got in the way. Anyone who, like me, spoke of the essential civilising force of stigma and shame in providing crucial informal constraints on the infliction of harm was demonised as a throwback to a cruel age of social ostracism. Government policy, egged on by activist judges who deliberately voided family law of ‘moral judgments’ on the basis that that there was no right or wrong in family life because it was always just too complicated to untangle, accordingly penalised marriage, rewarded adultery, further incentivised lone parenthood and systematically normalised irregular relationships.
Wickedly, to cover its tracks that same political/intellectual class stopped breaking down official information about household violence according to married/unmarried status so that it became impossible to show what previously official statistics had clearly demonstrated: that women and children are at vastly greater risk of physical and sexual abuse at the hands of unmarried and unrelated men passing through the household (a recent US study found, children living with a non-biological adult are 50 times more likely to die from afflicted injuries than those living with their biological parents). Indeed, we have now reached the point where official forms increasingly fail to use terms such as ‘mother and father’ or ‘parents’ in favour of the non-discriminatory euphemisms of informal ‘relationships’. Britain has simply written orderly, married, normative family life out of the script.
I also wrote years ago about the institutionalised incompetence of social work, in the grip of a political correctness so extreme that it was wholly incapable of responding to situations on the facts that plainly presented themselves, with catastrophic results. From the death of Maria Colwell in 1973 inquiry after inquiry has been convened, made recommendations and been ignored as atrocity has followed atrocity on the social workers’ watch. Then as now the same excuses were made – that social workers were under-funded, under-resourced, under-trained, under pressure, damned if they did and damned if they didn’t, unsung heroes who should not be condemned just because, hey, from time to time a child was sadistically abused or tortured to death on their watch, it was all the fault of government penny-pinching, we’re all guilty, etc etc. Then as now I was vilified as a heartless social worker-basher, extreme right-wing lunatic etc etc.
And now we can all see the truly terrible results. This week we have been presented with the life, systematic torture and death of baby P, a case so harrowing that many of us can hardly bear to read the details and cannot do so without weeping.
We read that he died at the hands of his mother, her boyfriend and their lodger. We read that the mother expressed no remorse and boasted she will be free by Christmas. We read that she had another child while she was in jail.
We read that the Director of Children’s Services at Haringey council has refused to apologise and insisted that no-one was to blame, despite evidence that social workers ignored doctors and three employees had received written warnings.
We read that four government ministers were warned that Haringey council’s child protection service was out of control seven months before baby P’s death – by a council whistleblower who was sacked and gagged for issuing this warning and who is prevented by court injunction from giving evidence to the official inquiry into the baby P case.
We read commentators falling over themselves to express horror, shock, revulsion, incredulity, outrage. Where have they all been these past two decades? We read of political point-scoring and righteous indignation at the political point-scoring.
Of course the political point scoring is obscene. Of course the book should be thrown at Haringey council.
But we also read this week of another household in Manchester where a baby and his two year-old brother were stabbed to death by a mother suffering from mental illness.
And we read of Shannon Matthews’ mother and her boyfriend’s uncle, on trial for abducting that poor child and keeping her locked up in order to extract a reward for her safe return.
The truth is that it is all far, far too late. Britain has simply undone the fabric of civilised life. And the most bitter reproach of all must be for the people at whose door the ultimate responsibility for this catastrophic state of affairs must really be laid — not the wretched politicians, not the council officials or Ofsted inspectors or other negligent or incompetent professionals, not even the sadists who actually killed baby P or who murder or maim countless other children, but the amoral and criminally self-regarding so-called ‘progressive’ intelligentsia, who have bullied, smeared, intimidated and manipulated Britain into a truly dark age of barbarism.”
November 19th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Turpin, you seem to think all parents smack their children. They haven’t made me a criminal, nor my wife & nor perhaps, pretty much all the parents I know.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
GET THAT LAST PARAGRAPH:
“…….The truth is that it is all far, far too late. Britain has simply undone the fabric of civilised life. And the most bitter reproach of all must be for the people at whose door the ultimate responsibility for this catastrophic state of affairs must really be laid — not the wretched politicians, not the council officials or Ofsted inspectors or other negligent or incompetent professionals, not even the sadists who actually killed baby P or who murder or maim countless other children, but the amoral and criminally self-regarding so-called ‘progressive’ intelligentsia, who have bullied, smeared, intimidated and manipulated Britain into a truly dark age of barbarism.”
AMEN.
The conservative “establishment” back in the ’50′s and ’60′s was actually far too soft on these “progressive intelligentsia”. They should have been jailed, not allowed to infiltrate our institutions.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
LLew
I wrote quite clearly, If you smack your child for discipline purposes then you are a criminal according to the law.
If this statement isn’t correct please show me in the Act how this isn’t so.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
# Robert Black (80) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
“Let’s get real, the problem is not the soft laws, it is a racial one. Maoris are a violent race. A high percentage of violent crime in New Zealand is Maori. They don’t give a toss about the punishment.
And so New Zealand is a dangerous place to live.”
Robert Black, I like your always blunt non P.C. approach. But the way I keep putting it is that Maori, and Aborigines in Aussie, and other races of colour, are like the canaries in the coalmine of society and its moral outlook. For some reason, they are the most vulnerable to return to barbarism (as Melanie Phillips puts it) when social conditions are set up for it. Maori did NOT have these problems back in more morally straight-laced times. Give it time, and we will see more and more European Glassies and Kahuis too.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Philbest
One of the weaknesses of a democratic society is that evryone may speak and advocate for a position or concept.
I thought that post by M/s Phillips was should be discussed in all our secondary schools as part of civics.
Only by discussing it can we educate people, but I suspect that is not what these “Intelligencia” refered to actually want to do.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
What you’re doing here is seeing the trees, but not the forest. Society in general is being led into the wrong forest. Any activity that leads a person away from their own inherent wholeness will lead them into the forest that includes the destruction of the family. In fact, the killing of children is just a symptom – yet another tree in the same wrong forest.
It’s time to forget about examining various shrubs for herbicide resistence and admit we’re in the wrong forest.
and that’s where I’m leaving that, because to begin to talk about how to turn and leave this dark forest would create such howls of protest -even from the most blameless of people- that anything useful would be drowned out. Lets just say that each of us, even if we don’t have children or intend to kill anyone, can only look at ourselves and decide to make a change.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Phil best
I see one of our problems as a society as being that :-
Common sense can only come about through common values.
Those who are supposed to serve us don’t have the same values as the majority of middle NZ perhaps.
Sadly, you may well be right about more European Nia Glassies
certainly if we don’t start action instaed of bandaids to the issue.
November 19th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
good god
you’re talking about Worldview and mindset that comes from that here methinks?
November 19th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Turpin
1. Replace the dole and DPB with vouchers
What does this actually accomplish?
It does not allow beneficiaries to purchase cigarettes and booze with MY money,
2. Immediate investigation into long term DPB recipients including unannounced home visits and the immediate removal of any at risk kids.
Surely this is not the only criteria what about drug use and unmarried status?
Do you not think data sharing between agencies to properly profile the risk elements first?
No I do not, we can fuck around for months finding an acceptable (PC) way of doing this or we can get stuck in, the Kahui’s and the Kuka’s are benefit recipients as are most of the other child killers.
3. Immediate work for the dole scheme to be implemented.
What about study for dole?
What about solo parents who home school?
They can make applications to be exempt, but we will get nowhere as long as people find reasons not to change things.
4. Order CYFS and Health workers to produce a list of the most at risk kids and demand that the parents prove why they should be allowed to keep their kids and associated benefits, the onus to be on the parents to prove they are up to the job.
Putting the onus on someone to prove they are a good parent is like making all parents crims for smacking their kids regardless of reason.
sorry I cannot support this like this. I would support this happening to parents with ahistory at CYF and NZPolice.
Who said “all parents”, I am talking about low life.
5. Do not allow ANY cultural issues to get in the way of child care.
Absolutely a kid is am kid not matter their colour or ethnic.
Good.
6. Fully fund foster care.
Isn’t it?
Nope
7. Introduce legislation that allows the state to order sterilisation of low life parents.
Whoa. stop right there.
Different discussion, different time.
Oh really…do you want to see more Kahui children and more Glassie kids do you?
Tough time call for tough measures.
November 19th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
2. assuming all beneficiaries are bad is incorrect thinking.
proper profiling must be done, the info is there the will to do it from the countries leadership isn’t.
yet.
3. this assumes people want to be on dole, I think that is an incorrect call.
Homeschooling is legal still and every parents right, if they are genuine and the sole parents then you don’t have my vote.
re-education or upskilling benefits us all including the beneficiary and their family.
4. again you equate all beneficiaries as low life.
without proper profiling I don’t think you can make that decision.
6. this is surprising as they aren’t blood relatives and the FP are essentially doing the states work for them?
7. different conversation and a different time. no change.
You’ve read what I’ve written so your last question is stupid and demeans you.
November 19th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Turpin
People like you are the reason we will continue to have more child deaths, you find reasons not to do something rather than doing what needs to be done.
November 19th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
What you think needs to be done you mean. Do you have a problem with questions? Perhaps you & Helen could close the door quietly as you leave.
November 19th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
llew the problem is the culturally sensitive pc attitude Liarbour and other lefty twits like yourself have adopted. Criminals are laughing at the soft cock approach!
November 19th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
“NZ Police management and officiating officers being charged with dereliction of duty and sacked.”
This is a good statement about Tokoroa. The police heavily monitor the roads in the poverty infested town to persecute its car owners. They need to be seen monitoring welfare areas so kids like Nia aren’t left outside to play in mud during winter.
If I had seen that I would’ve taken her to the shop to get some chocolate in her then sent her straight to the police. Rung 111 as I was doing it . Exactly what the neighbours should’ve done. They needed to be facing charges as well. They were definitely implicated and admitted that.
But thinking long term, who knows what kind of abuse and violence will be swept under the radar if Maori get more power in parliament . One well known Rotorua family are lamenting the offenders custodial sentences. That is grossly shocking.
November 19th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
Anybody going on about the severity of sentence should be incarcerated before lunchtime. Hard core the pricks and watch child abuse drop significantly. No protection units for kid killers , throw the filth in mainstream and watch the carnage. Dog eat dog.
November 19th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
so what do we have on Prime tonight.
a report on Nia Glassie and the visuals to the voiceover about abuse?
guess?
yeah someone giving a smack.
No visuals on “Beating” just a samck.
I rest my case as long as smacking is equated with abuse Mr Key, English et al
We are not going to get on top of it and people like me won’t trust you with or families.
November 19th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Big Bruv
There is a proper and correct way to deal with this.
to sterilise people as a fiat is not the answer.
also the many things you suggest that should be looked at get overlooked because you are so over the top andnot thoughtful.
To say that more happen because I find reasons to not do something completely mistakes what i have written before now.
You are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo incorrect it’s laughable.
have you appeared before a parole board to get someones parole rescinded?
have you investigated abuse and helped prosecute it?
have you put people inside who have committed crime?
have you observed acts not being able to deal to them without disclosure?
have you had superiors contermand actions that you believe should have happened?
have you visited prisoners in prison?
have you supported prisoners families whilst their fathers are incarcerated?
have you been a 2nd father to kids at risk or with their dads away in prison?
if you had then you will have shared some my life experiences.
Please don’t put words into my mouth, rather read what I write.
we need action and action that will work properly in the long term not knee jerk reactions.
I am all for action even the death penalty but properly executed
Personally I consider life in prison to be less humane than the death penalty not withstanding the saving in cost.
Questions are good from that comes knowledge
and as we all know Knowledge gives strength to the arm.
and I’m all for that.
I’m all for conversation that leads somewhere on this subject, are you?
November 19th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
On second thought, I think I may have taken the girl to the media first to make sure the case would be followed thru properly
With Cyfs these days, publicity needs to be first priority!
November 19th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
General advice- don’t dig up what happened to Baby P in the UK.
November 19th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Turpin
Thats an impressive list, I have no desire to get into a pissing contest with you other than to say that it is dangerous to assume anything about somebody that you do not know.
However I stand by my comments, your last line highlights the difference between you and me as I see it
“I’m all for conversation that leads somewhere on this subject, are you?”
Conversation has led us nowhere, conversation gave us Lillybing, James W, Dulcelia Whitaker, the Kahui babies and Nia Glassie.
For those of us who actually want to do something about this problem the time for conversation is over, it is time for action, I want to do things that might make a change, things that might save a kids life where as so many of my fellow kiwi’s are more interested in telling me what will not work while failing to offer any suggestions of their own.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
From the media accounts the Curtis boys and there mates were blown away by the verdict. This shows to me that fundamentaly they did just did not have a clue. Something is seriously missing in these people. Was it nature or nuture?
Yes. It is a time for action. The action must be in two areas, karma in this life for the sad people that abuse and making sure people leave school, literate, understanding some basic ethics and with a job to go to.
November 19th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
PhilBest “For some reason, they are the most vulnerable to return to barbarism”
Anything to do with the fact their stone age cultural rituals are not only still practiced through forums like kapa haka, this violent tribalism its encouraged in most schools- mandatory in others?
Put the damn cultre in a museum where it belongs
Funny how Maori living overseas don’t suffer the same fate, removed from both the cultural indoctrination including the belief their birthright was stolen, but also removed from the welfare trap as well.
Child abuse stats show DPB parents as four times more likely to have an abused child! Shame they wont publish what the maori stats are – but I suppose they are obvious to everyone
I’m always amazed how the maori I know in living in Aussie are soooooooo different from the average chip on their shoulder maori living here. – so what’s different? – simple, no easy welfare – no cultural indoctrination.
They don’t grow up thinking the world owes them – instead they pull finger like the rest of us
November 19th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
I’m at pains at whether to post this or not, but I will.
My great-aunt was savagely raped at the age of 78 by her 18 year-old neighbour.
She was watching Coronation Street. This scumbag climbed in through her bedroom window and turned off the fuse-box, cutting all power to the house. She went to the hallway to get a torch, where he grabbed her. Among other things which I won’t mention, he broke both her hips. And gave her multiple STD’s.
I was returning from studies, and I drove past her house at exactly that same time. I noticed the lights were off, but assumed she must have retired early. (In her infinite generosity, she had offered me board whilst I was studying, both to keep her company and keep my expenses to a minimum. I chose to stay with my grandparents further up the road. It is a regret I will always carry).
The police got him that same night. He pleaded guilty, and got eight years. He was released in four years, and raped again within six months.
He wasn’t Maori. And it wasn’t in South Auckland. At the opposite end of the spectrum.
I would imagine he will be due for release shortly – much to the distress of my grandparents who are tormented yearly with submitting to his parole hearings.
I’m not sure there is a point to my post, but I’m thinking that maybe evil does exist.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Patrick,
I just watched a news report on Nia Glassie in which a Maori elder was interviewed. He did not say it was all about poverty and colonisation, he said it was about persoanl responsibility, and that we need to bring back the death penalty.
So I don’t think your generalisations about Maori in NZ are accurate.
As noskire bravely points out this is not a Maori issue, it a New Zealand issue. Maori may be at the sharp end of this, but we are ALL to some degree responsible for the society we have allowed to be created.
Social liberalism has failed, utterly and completely. It is time to overturn it, root and branch. And part of this means we need, as individuals, to look at those areas were we hold on to our own pet liberal issues and repent of them. I have been doing that myself, over the past couple of weeks in particular, as the horrifying details of what happenned to poor Nia have come out, and the details of the families lifestyle have been exposed.
I have been wrong on a number of issues. Wrong about absolute personal freedom. Wrong about decriminalisation of drugs. Wrong about many libertarian principles.
It’s time to change.
November 20th, 2008 at 12:19 am
It don’t happen in Singapore, where they’ve successfully repelled the Progressives.
November 20th, 2008 at 12:33 am
When I was a little baby law student all of us were against capital punishment.
Since then I have grown up and support it. Living in China helps. This is by far the safest country I have ever been to. Believe it or not, it is. I can go out at 4am anywhere in China, except maybe near the Russia border and never feel unsafe, alone, with my gf, whatever.
Why is that?
Because the Chinese don’t f around with their convicted asshole muderers and rapists. They take them out and shoot them in the head. End of problem, total cost to the country, one short trial and one bullet.
Let’s face it, DNA, now makes capital punishment more fail safe than ever before.
If there was ever a time to introduce it or a country to introduce it into it is New Zealand right now.
People say it’s not the Maoris, for God’s sake someone post the true statistics or percentages for violent crime in 2007 and 2008 if they can. Capital punishment is not racist, right?
So, let a bullet take out a large percentage of the violent criminals in NZ.
We all know, the number of Maoris will diminish quickly, but more importantly the number of rapists and murderers will drop dramatically.
But left wing country, no balls to introduce it because there will be loads of protests, blah, blah, blah and the New Zealand sentencing will continue to be a f’ing joke and the country will continue to get more and more dangerous.
These pricks are gonna have kids when they come out. Maybe rape someone and get them pregnant.
And the cycle of offending continues.
Just a fair trial and a bullet, that’s all it takes.
I paid a fair whack of tax when I worked in New Zealand and never got a cent back. These pricks will cost the country thousands and thousands of tax payers money, just so they can say, oh yeah, it’s not our fault, it’s cultural shock that the white men inflicted upon our race.
Can you imagine them giggling in a Chinese court?
Just one bullet.
November 20th, 2008 at 9:26 am
Lee
I have to say I agree with the Maori Elder, It’s not about poverty or colonisation. Kahuis & King could hardly be considered impoverished with their combined welfare exceeded $100k p.a. One of the issues to me is the constant and unconditional handing over of welfare.
…and Id be the last to blame colonisation. What I do hold responsible is the crap kids are forced to learn about the effects of colonisation. Our system is teaching them a violent culture and putting a chip on their shoulders from day one. Day two they stick them out the door and hand them weekly welfare.
“this is not a Maori issue, it a New Zealand issue” It cant be a NZ issue until Maori are prepared to become part of mainstream NZ – and not taught to believe they are in some way special.
Robert Black – you are spot on
November 20th, 2008 at 10:31 am
Patrick,
The effects of colonization are too well documented to be ignored. We can see it in Maori, we can see it in Australian Aborigines, we can see it in Native Americans. This does not mean that colonization should be used as an excuse. But the opposite extreme of that is pretending that its not relevant at all. It is, and I would argue provably so.
All cultures are violent in one way or another. Maori culture no more so than any other. The question is, how do we deal with that constructively? One part of a solution would be a return to compulsory national service for all Kiwis, and the reformation of the Maori battalion.
Nia Glassie’s family WERE part of mainstream New Zealand. They were part of the liberal, socialist, welfare state Pakeha have imposed on them.
Nia’s mum was the perfect mainstream New Zealander. Multiple partners. Sexually liberal. A drug user. An alcohol abuser. A “she’ll be right mate” attitude to her kids. She was culturally white, not Maori. I’m sorry if that offends some, but its the harsh truth. Nia’s mum’s lifestyle was exactly what you see in millions of British today. Violent, welfare addicted drug and alcohol abusers. The violence amongst white British teens has become so bad nearly 50% of the population think they are little more than animals.
In every example of this kind of abuse the Maori in question have been those divorced from their traditional culture, not part of it. Those that do turn their backs on mainstream NZ often do far better in life.
This is true too of Native Americans. So long as they remained part of the mainstream culture of sexual freedom and alcohol abuse they failed socially. When increasing numbers of them turned their backs on that culture, returned to their own traditions, and gained devolved tribal sovereignty over their educational, economic and social lives, the poor stats began to turn around.
Mainstream New Zealand is sick to the core. What is mainstream New Zealand? Boobs on bikes. Gay “pride” parades. Homosexuals having sex in toilets. Drug abuse. Alcohol abuse. Easy divorce. Legalised prostitution. Easy welfare. Violent tv and videos. Pornography. Materialist values. Atheism.
Maori SHOULD turn their backs on that, and so should Pakeha. Only a radical traditionalist counter-revolution that over turns liberalism in ALL its forms will save us. That includes right wing classical liberalism, which is just another manifestation of the disease.
Bring back the death penalty, yes. But also we need as a nation, both Maori and Pakeha to bring back God, tradition, spiritual values and the centrality of the family.
November 20th, 2008 at 10:40 am
Ohh Boy
I just knew that God fella would get a look in.
God hates sinners.
What hope have I got?
Anyway, what is it about a radical traditionalist counter-revolution that will save us?
How will it save us?
November 20th, 2008 at 10:47 am
Turpin,
by taking an axe to diseased tree of liberalism.
I don’t claim to have all this worked out yet. I’m undergoing something of radical change in my political views, in part because of the Nia Glassie case.
November 20th, 2008 at 11:02 am
In this country we pay lip service to the abuse by officially from parliament saying that any physical discipline is violence towards a child.
Then we don’t officially publicly discuss the profile(s) of the offenders.
Then we don’t scope and take action against individuals who fit the profile.
The why is the question and only by dealing to this will we take action.
The same can be said for Noskire’s post.
that evil bugger is now inside for the second time that we know of and is up for parole?
did he get the maximum sentence for rape because he was a second offender?
did his parole depend on his victim agreeing to it?
To him he views his time as being like climbing a hill
the top of the hill being the midpoint of his time to his parole date not the end of sentence date!
I’ve visited these fellas.
they view it as their right to have parole, they get pissed with anyone who takes away their “right”
they view it that they have paid their debt to society.
they don’t think that when they are contributing and are not a threat to people then they have paid their debt!
Why is this the system, why have we allowed this to happen?
Why do we make victims secondary to the offenders?
Until we deal to this people will feel there is no Justice and rightly so.
but that’s only part of the discussion
there’s still the rehabilitation of the offender so that they are a contributor to society.
If we don’t offer this properly all we do is operate a revolving door.
that is inhumane.
Similarly, we can’t just throw away the key unless we can honestly say we gave them the option to make it right.
then lets throw the key away even cull those who are intransigent if that’s what society wants..
November 20th, 2008 at 11:08 am
I understand Lee
I used to be one of the “lets just hang ‘em crowd”.
Still am in my heart of heart.
This is a good country with great potential and compared to other places in the world I’ve lived in, we live in luxury.
so I support the death penalty for committed criminals, murderers, paedophiles and such.
Because we owe it to their victims.
When a crime is committed, as I see it, there are four victim groups.
the victim themself.
the victims family and whanau
the people in the area
society in general.
I think we have an obligation to them all before the offender.
That said many people in prison end up there because they haven’t grown up
or not educated/workskills so have no chance to be independent
or as lelia lashlie says they were acting out rites of passage.
I don’t think we can ignore this in our deliberations.
November 20th, 2008 at 11:16 am
An interesting observation…
I spent some time on a Kibbutz in Israel many moons back. I noted the kids were living with their parents and yet I remember studying at school that they were raised separately in ‘children’s houses’.
I asked about this and was told “we tried that experiment… we raised a generation of delinquents”.
November 20th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Turpin, I’ve long advocated a two-tiered prison system.
One resources extensively for rehabilitation of the offender, the other resources to protect society from those that have proven themselves unwilling/incapable of rehabilitation.
Offenders of the very worst crimes and/or recidivist offenders should go directly to the protection-style prison… and bring on the bread/water and hard labour.
Those sent to rehabilitation prisons should be given all the help possible, including a couple of hard weeks across in the other style of prison… so alternative to sorting out their life and societal contribution is made very, very clear.
November 20th, 2008 at 11:31 am
only a couple of hard weeks:-)?
you’ve got my vote.
now how do we advance this in the National party?
November 20th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Getstaffed,
thats a seriously good idea.
November 20th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
I watched on Maori tv as they celebrated the life of kaumatua Hare Puke
all well and good, but I wonder if they could have done an item on Nia as well
In fact James whakaruru, Lily Bing and all the murdered children of Aotearoa.
Nia and these childrens are the real heroes. Hare Puke and all Blacks and Prime ministers and CBE”S and Knights and Willie Apiata and Edmund Hillary all had good lives.
These children were martyrs simply for being them selves.
That’s all they got to do and no more.
I carry them in ma heart and they dwell in Gods eyes night and day as precious to him.
They are wrapped in cherubs wings and are the companions of angels. They walk on streets of gold and eat from the tree of life. I’m sure every New Zealander who reaches those eternal shores will seek them out and kneel in their presence.
They are the humble innocent heroes God would have us all to be.
Safe in His arms forever.
November 20th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Life without parole would not have saved this girl. What would have saved her was friends, family, neighbours speaking up and getting on the phone to the Police or Child Youth and Family. Too often, in my lifetime and my communities, beatings and other forms of violence against children were tolerated. There is a road to this kind of violence, and it comes from seeing lesser forms as acceptable. Because, for many people, in many parts of NZ, it still is.
We desperately need a society that will not tolerate violence against children. It is never OK. Never.
Those who do so should be in jail.
You despicable people supporting the repeal of the law that made it illegal to beat and assault children. I don’t care if it means “innocent” parents and caregivers being locked up. It’s a price I’m willing to pay.
What we need is support and kaupapa throughout communities against violence, and a hell of a lot more prevention.
November 20th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
George
Life without parole would not have saved her – you’re probably correct.
But pinging every decent parent in Kiwiland didn’t either did it?
“Too often in my lifetime and my communities, beatings and other forms of violence on children tolerated?”
Not in my circle of people!
But then a smack isn’t a beating is it?
get real man.
The only thing that will work is to stop being reverse racist PC and make the offender profile out there and being used by all people both govt and private.
Only by being obtrusive will something happen.
November 20th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
This is the bit I had issue with yesterday – I haven’t been pinged at all by the act, neither will I be & neither have nor will any of my friends with children, why do you keep insisting “every decent parent in Kiwiland”. It’s not correct.
Or is that you think every “decent” parent smacks their kids?
November 20th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
llew, how many friend with children do you have? If you have many friend with young children it is unlike that some will note at sometime smack their children. When your children if you have any grow up it is quite likely they will smack their children. Would you like to see them investigated by the police CYPS if they do?
Do you remberber what Helwn had to say on the issue?
““Helen Clark: A lot of people aren’t comfortable with beatings but they don’t want to see, you know, stressed and harassed parents, you know, pulled in by the police because they, they smacked a child.
Bob McCroskie: So you do not want to see smacking banned?
Helen Clark: Absolutely not, I think you are trying to defy human nature.””
November 20th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
I have lots. I don’t believe they smack their kids. All I’m saying is I don’t agree that this law pings all parents.
Out of interest, how many stressed & harassed parents have been pulled in because they smacked a child?
BTW, here’s Bradford’s response to that quote from Clark
http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=114074
November 20th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
@ LEE
“All cultures are violent in one way or another. Maori culture no more so than any other.”
Has to be one of the most stupid naive things I have read so far here.
Off Google:
TVNZ News Item:
Police tackling Maori crime rates
2004
Police from across New Zealand are meeting in Auckland this week to discuss ways to bring high Maori crime statistics down.
Maori make up just 14% of the population but are responsible for more than 65% of offending, however police say they are confident a solution will be found.
It said young offenders had the highest rates of repeat offending of all groups.
“It is estimated that up to 20 per cent of young offenders will continue to be persistent offenders during adulthood,” the report said.
After property offences, violent offending was the most prevalent offence of repeat conviction and re-imprisonment.
“The proportion of violent crimes has increased from 10.3 per cent of all recorded offences in 2002/03 to 11.6 per cent in 2004,” the report said.
“Violent Maori offenders, including those who commit sexual offences, form around 40 per cent of the prison population.”
Me thinks it is getting worse somehow.
November 20th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Here we go
Murderous Tokoroa again
http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikatotimes/4767166a6004.html
More chidren suffering because of a Maori male
Mother of five killed
November 20th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
Robert,
all you have shown is that Maori are over-represented in the crime stats. Thats hardly news. But more importantly it proves nothing at all about Maori culture.
Look at the crime stats for lower class whites in Britain. Does that prove that traditional British culture is the problem? No.
The problem with Maori criminals is not Maori culture, but a lack of it.
November 20th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
Getstaffed @ 11:20am: superb idea!
In fact I think the new “campus-style” prisons that are being constructed now (or completed recently) would be perfect for your “soft” tier.
The criteria around what sorts of offenders go straight into the “hard” tier would need to be clearly set out though.
Ultimately I think this should be decided by the courts at sentencing time. But there could be a referendum, where the spectrum of criminal offences was simplified into say 20 or 30 “types” of crime, and the general public were asked for their opinions about which crimes we want people to learn from, and which crimes we think mark low-life that need to be put away for everyone else’s good.
At the end of the day I think people with expert knowledge of the particular cases need to decide. But it doesn’t hurt for those people to have a very clear idea of what you and I think is appropriate…
November 20th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Early intervention services that don’t work always seem to wait until the poor kids become victims. Why is that? Remember Coral Burrows. How long ago was that . CYFS are that dysfunctional they are dangerous. Judges know that the system is failing our young ones. What will we do?
November 20th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Lee and Robert Black:
I’m very much with Lee on this one. I don’t know much about the traditional Maori culture, but even to me it’s obvious they have beliefs about
(1) the inter-connectedness of all life, with each other and with their physical place in the world, and
(2) the value of family, and
(3) doing what your relatives and ancestors would expect of you,
…which a lot of us could do well to learn from!
November 20th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
“the value of family”
Child abuse and infanticide statistics would conclude that you ratbit are talking shit again.
November 20th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
“CYFS are that dysfunctional they are dangerous. Judges know that the system is failing our young ones. What will we do?”
It’s not CYFS fault, they are fighting against the tide. They already uplift children where there is evidence of abuse, even newly born children. Incentives need to be offered to long term CYFS parents to not have further children as they are condemning those kids to hellish lives.
November 20th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
dad – I’m not denying that we have just seen Maori individuals in our courts, showing us the very worst that human beings can do to their own kin.
What I am saying is that, from my (admittedly quite limited) personal connections with the wider maori culture, it seems to me that the way Nia Glassie lived is not even slightly representative of how most Maori look after their own!
November 20th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Bob the nanny state has encouraged welfare and solo mums whose houses become unsafe for vulnerable children. To be fair to CYFS, all government agencies that claim to act in the child’s best interests are dismal failures. Go visit a courthouse and witness the tragedy of large numbers of youth offenders. The anti family attitude adopted by previous governments has certainly left its mark. Anybody for parental responsibility? What about parental role models? I wonder if National care about the Family Unit?
November 20th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
John Key seems to have turned out alright! He was brought up by a solo mum wasn’t he?
November 20th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Lee,
If from the moment your children can understand, they are taught they have been historically wronged what sort of an attitude do you believe they will grow up with? These children are taught little else but resentment.
You don’t need to be having full emersion in Maori culture for that. I have several Maori employees, none of which are from strong cultural teaching but all seem to have a chip on their shoulders nonetheless and do little else except talk of what Pakeha have taken from them.
I’m always quick to point out that they are not full blooded Maori, and should go and talk to their pakeha ancestors about it
“Maori are over-represented in the crime stats” is probably the biggest understatement yet.
I suppose we’ll agree to disagree on this one. – but one question; when most young Maori are living away from NZ (and the constant brainwashing) why to they seem to do so well ?
Ratbiter – His name is John, Not Hone
November 20th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Look ratbit , I am not knocking solo mums as I am a solo dad.
November 20th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Lee, what culture was it in the 1950′s that gave Maori and Pakeha alike, such low crime, violent crime, and murder rates?
Sorry, but I still agree with Melanie Phillips that this is a return to barbarism, whether the barbarism of our ancient Briton ancestors or our ancient Maori ancestors. Like it or not, there is a culture that displaces barbarism of any kind, wherever it is in the world, for the better.
Try “The Wealth And Poverty of Nations”, by David Landes.
November 20th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Thank you, Patrick Starr. Have you read much about “The Long March Through The Institutions”? This grievance culture stuff is all part of a deliberate ploy to turn as many sectors of the free western world as possible, against itself.
The Urewera Terrorists are just a logical conclusion to all this. Even if this lot were Walter Mitty types rather than the real thing, the real thing will come before long.
Even gunmen going mad on uni campuses, mouthing off about “rich kids oppressing me”, clearly weren’t helped by overdosing on Noam Chomsky.
November 20th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
“Bob the nanny state has encouraged welfare and solo mums whose houses become unsafe for vulnerable children. To be fair to CYFS, all government agencies that claim to act in the child’s best interests are dismal failures. Go visit a courthouse and witness the tragedy of large numbers of youth offenders. The anti family attitude adopted by previous governments has certainly left its mark. Anybody for parental responsibility? What about parental role models? I wonder if National care about the Family Unit?”
The Bell Curve has quite interesting data on the correlation between particularly low levels of cognitive ability and likelihood of being involved in crime, teen pregnancy, welfare etc. Quite a sobering read, particularly the point that intelligence is significantly inherited and in most Western countries the smarter/more educated a person is the fewer children they tend to have.
November 20th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Sorry, even if you haven’t asked for it, here is a recommended reading list on Cultural Marxism and “The Long March Through The Institutions”.
Precious few “Tory” politicians have a clue about all this.
John Howard was a rare example of one that did; I myself only started researching this after I read a speech he gave a few years ago.
Google these for yourself; there are far too many to “link” to.
“Who Stole Our Culture” and “What is Cultural Marxism?” by William S. LIND
“The Historical Roots of Political Correctness” by Raymond V. RAEHN
“Gramsci’s Grand Plan” by James THORNTON
“Gramsci: A Method To the Madness” by William Norman GRIGG
“What is the Frankfurt School” by Gerald L. ATKINSON
“Enthralled By Cultural Marxism” by Chuck MORSE
“Gramsci and the US Body Politic” by Alberto LUZARRAGA
“The Frankfurt School: Its History, Theories, and Political Significance” BOOK by Rolf Wiggershaus; REVIEW by David WEININGER
“Why There is a Culture War” by John FONTE
“Missing Diversity”; “Today’s Culture Wars”; and “Up From Multiculturalism” By David Horowitz
“The Ongoing Marxist March against The Western Mind” by Frank MORRISS
“What if you found out that bad stuff is happening on purpose?” By Charley REESE
“The New Left, Cultural Marxism, and Psychopolitics disguised as Multiculturalism” By Linda KIMBALL
“Political Correctness: The Revenge of Marxism” by “Fjordman”
November 20th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Why doesn’t someone try and get just the murder statistics (forget abot the rapes, GBH, assault with weapon, child abuse for now) for New Zealand already in 2008.
Even if we just take convictions (not alleged and waiting for trials which we know will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal aid and so on).
and see how many were Maoris and how many were not.
Wish I could do it.
November 20th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
llew
“This is the bit I had issue with yesterday – I haven’t been pinged at all by the act, neither will I be neither have nor will any of my friends with children, why do you keep insisting “every decent parent in Kiwiland”. It’s not correct.”
I am remiss, you are quite correct.
I should have stated all decent (majority 80%) Kiwi parents who might give a smack on the bum as part of parental discipline.
They are the ones who will be and are being pinged not you and your friends (the minority).
I of course have assumed that the 80% is representing those Kiwi people who were against the repealing of SEC 59 and leaving the status quo as it was.
IE not making it illegal for a parent to give a smack on the bum as they made up a majority as they were 80% of voters.
I also assume that you therefore and your friends are a minority as a consequence of the remaining 20% is made up or those who don’t smack and of those who have no opinion so will be less than 20%.
A smack on the bum is not beating and shouldn’t be illegal.
I think that it is part of the core of the problem in this country coupled with white liberal PC guilt or racism to actually get down and do anything constructive except punish and traumatise the majority for the very few offenders whatever their background.
Mr John Key and his caucus obviously thinks differently but won’t openly say so.
November 20th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
“Several independent lines of evidence point to this: -Low IQ strongly correlates with criminality because it indicates a reduced ability to make long-term decisions, and IQ is highly heritable. -Studies indicate that a biological parent’s criminal record more closely predicts an adopted child’s behavior than the adoptive parents environment. -Large scale statistical evidence (e.g. the crime rates of populations) -Physiological and genetic evidence from individuals and populations (e.g. salivary testosterone levels, MAO promoter polymorphisms) The case for a genetic contribution to criminality is conclusive. What remains to be figured out are exactly which genes contribute to criminality and how they exert their effects . These questions will be addressed with the tools of molecular biology, and it will be far more difficult to assail the results as “biased”.
http://www.gnxp.com/oldblog/nopub/85379116
November 20th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
I have been truly amazed at some of the rhetoric thrown around this case. Perhaps the worst being that the cause of this murder was poverty!
In a country that had, until just weeks ago, full employment of anyone who wanted it, and students who demanded $16 per hour to do basic labouring, and got more work than they could handle, there is no reason for this family to have been living on benefits. There was work available and all they had to do was get off their arses and go do some.
Another form of rhetoric is the ‘colonisation’ rubbish. Six generations ago there may have been some basis for this excuse, but no one of procreating age in New Zealand today has any experience of colonial life. Furthermore, if colonialism is so terrible, how come one of the most prosperous and progressive countries in the world today is India, which was truly colonised (unlike New Zealand, which was never assigned to the Colonial Office of the British Government!)?
Then we have the ‘land theft’. Oh how terrible that something was stolen a hundred years ago! Wow! The further in the past it gets, the more terrible the impact on today’s generation. Just look at those Windsor boys; such terrible examples of human flotsam and jetsam, we should put it all down to their American land being stolen from them, together with their land in France, Germany and a few dozen other places! It’s amazing they haven’t sired and killed hundreds of children yet.
One person who has my absolute admiration today is the co-leader of the Maori Party, Ms Turiana. (sp?) Here at least is a leader that says both ‘get off your duffs and do something for your money’ and ‘scrap the dole and get our people out earning’. She is a role model of both probity and principle, who can and should be admired by Maori and Pakeha alike.
The time for excuses is past, as is the time for looking away. Young people, of all ethnicities, must learn that in this world you only get luxuries by working for them (and I count SKY, Tumble dries, cars, drugs, chocolate, branded clothes and many more things as luxuries).
The time for turning up the volume so as not to hear the screams of a child are also overdue for abandonment. Someone recently said it was time to go back to the fifties when ‘socialism’ worked. (Yes Mr. Trotter.) I remember those days! If a man saw another man assaulting a woman or child back then he would have grabbed a few neighbours and ‘sorted them out’. The local cop on the beat would have attended to make sure nothing got out of hand, and the problem would have been dealt with; if it happened again, the neighbours would have taken the offender to the police station themselves! Today we have a society that is AFRAID to get involved because we have lost our sense of community.
I don’t endorse a return to the life-style of the ’50s, but I do endorse communities protecting the weak in their midst.
November 20th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Arguing about the reasons for their crime is pointless in this case. How to fix the families, how to get them jobs. Hello, they don’t want jobs! They want to smoke drugs and live off of benefits.
That is akin to arguing how to stop the IRA hating the English
Or how to stop the Palestinians from hating the Israelis.
We all know that is never gonna happen with the Maoris, it is that sort of unfixable problem, socially, culturally.
The increased number of Asians, especially the Chinese, as seen already with Chinese MP’s eventually the country will force the Maori power and population down to 3rd.
And eventually, it will be a problem just like the IRA and the Palestinian hatred, that will be dealt with by severe measures, even violence.
Violence breeds violence.
The death penalty is a way to stop the inevitable creation of vigilante groups taking the law into their own hands.
Any smart politicians would see this coming and impose capital punishment.
November 20th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Robert Black, It looks like it has worsened since your 2004 TVNZ item.
Cabinet papers from 2007
“Over-Representation of Maori
Statistics show disproportionately high levels of offending, re-offending and imprisonment among the Maori population and historical data shows that this over-representation has been longstanding. The proportion of Maori inmates has risen from 26% in the 1960′s to 37% in 1970, to just over 50% since the early 1980′s. Today Maori men and women comprise approximately 51% (3,552) and 58% (260) of their respective prison populations.
Data from Census New Zealand 2006 indicates that Maori represent 14.6% of the general population aged 15 and over, however Maori make up 42% of criminal apprehensions and 50% of the prison population. The number of Maori in the offending prone age groups (15 to 29 years of age) is projected to increase significantly by 2021. Maori crime statistics have also deteriorated consistently since the 1960s, and significantly in the past decade. In particular, apprehensions among Maori for violent offences have risen from 13,332 in 1997/98 to 18,207 in 2006/07. Unless something is done to stem the flow of Maori into the criminal justice system and better manage the exits of those already there, outcomes for Maori are unlikely to improve and pressure on the prison system is unlikely to abate.”
http://www.justice.govt.nz/effective_interventions/cabinet_papers/maori-action-funding-options-for-practical-initiatives.asp
November 20th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Read this 2006 report. You’ll laugh your socks off how they intend to address it
“25 All in all, the criminal justice system needs to do far better at stemming the entry of Māori and Pacific peoples, and managing their exit. Issues that need to be addressed include:
· How the Government can best support Māori and Pacific peoples’ communities to reduce victimisation, offending and re-offending, and improve responsiveness to programmes developed by Māori and Pacific peoples’ communities.
· How the Government can best support families/whānau of offenders that are involved in remand/bail, restorative justice and family group conferences, home detention, and prisoner re-integration.
· How to remove opportunities for systemic bias, thereby ensuring consistency and fairness for Māori and Pacific peoples at all points in the criminal justice system where there is an element of discretion.”
“Victimisation” and “systemic bias” together with “fairness for Māori and Pacific peoples at all points in the criminal justice system where there is an element of discretion”. (FFS It’s everyone elses fault – and give them less of a sentence)
http://www.justice.govt.nz/effective_interventions/cabinet_papers/maori-pacific.asp
November 20th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Yes, enough is enough.
It is a serious problem for the country and should be dealt with by serious measures.
I hope the new government is up to it.
Stopping the bs about the Maoris.
November 20th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Robert, racist like you add to the problem. I know plenty of Maori without a chip on their shoulder. However, if they read enough racist comments from you and few others they well could get one. I find it odd on this blog how it is appears that it against the rules to to point out the fact that homosexuals are overrepresented in HIV and sexual abuse minor statistics.
They is no way that the death penalty will ever be reinstated. I am surprised that DPF allows so many out and out racist comments on this blog while he jumps on anything that puts homosexuals in a bad light.
The number of anti Maori comments do not look good on a blog that is support the present government. Rightly or wrongly observers could conclude that many ACT and National supports are racist.
November 20th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
1. Replace the dole and DPB with vouchers
What does this actually accomplish?
IT LIMITS THE THINGS THEY CAN BUY TO THE THINGS THE AMOUNT PAID WAS CALCULATED FOR. BOOZE, CIGARETTES, OTHER DRUGS, SKY-TV, GAMBLING, ETC., ARE NOT ON THAT LIST
2. Immediate investigation into long term DPB recipients including unannounced home visits and the immediate removal of any at risk kids.
Surely this is not the only criteria what about drug use and unmarried status?
KIDS AT RISK MUST BE THE MONER ONE CARE OF SOCIETY, OTHERWISE EVENTUALLY THERE WON’T BE ONE. TO MY MIND, AT RISK INCLUDES FINDING BOOZE, CIGARETTES, DRUGS, SKY-TV AND OTHER ‘PROSCRIBED ITEMS’ IN THE HOUSE. IF YOU WANT MY MONEY, YOU SHULD BE PREPARED TO PROVE YOU NEED IT AT THE DROP OF A HAT, OTHERWISE, OFF YOUR DUFF AND EARN.
3. Immediate work for the dole scheme to be implemented.
What about study for dole?
What about solo parents who home school?
EARN YOUR MONEY, SAVE IT, STUDY AND GET A BETTER JOB. HOME SCHOOLING IS NOT THE FIRST PRIORITY FOR SOCIETY, IF YOU NEED WELFARE TO HOME SCHOOL IT’S NOT AN OPTION IN MY MIND, I’VE ALREADY PAID TO PROVIDE AN EDUCATION SYSTEM, YOUR CHILD CAN BE PART OF IT WHILE YOU GO OUT AND EARN.
4. Order CYFS and Health workers to produce a list of the most at risk kids and demand that the parents prove why they should be allowed to keep their kids and associated benefits, the onus to be on the parents to prove they are up to the job.
Putting the onus on someone to prove they are a good parent is like making all parents crims for smacking their kids regardless of reason.
WRONG POINT! THE SUGGESTION WAS ‘MOST AT RISK KIDS’ NOT ‘ALL KIDS’, WE AVOID DOING THE RIGHT THING FOR AT RISK KIDS NOW AND HAVE TO STOP IT. BY TAKING AWAY THE KIDS OF THE PARENTS WHO CAN’T DEMONSTRATE THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE AND CARING, WE RELEASE THE PARENTS TO GET JOBS AND SHOW THEY CAN LEAD THE LIFESTYLE NECESSARY TO PROPERLY RAISE OUR FUTURE.
7. Introduce legislation that allows the state to order sterilisation of low life parents.
Whoa. stop right there.
I AGREE. PERMANENT STERILISATION OF MENTALLY INCAPABLE PEOPLE I CAN RELUCTANTLY ACCEPT, OF OTHERS – NO; THERE IS NO WAY OF PROVING THEY CAN’T CHANGE, AND I DON’T KNOW HOW TO DEFINE “LOW LIFE”.
November 20th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
CHUCK
My comments apply to ALL races. As part of a mixed marriage I can claim to be raceless in my outlook. However, there are as many people who push the ‘poor Maori’ wagon on this blog as push the ‘bloody Maori’ one; these are not opposites. The opposite of racist is apologist, and I am not one of those, in the same way as the opposite of hate is not love, it is apathist, and I am not one of those either.
The biggest problem we face as a community is apathy, about our society, our neighbours, our schools, our crime rate, our standard of living, all the things that prior generations, of all hues, have fought for.
Our worst apathy though is about our nation! We laugh at the patriotism of Americans and Australians, while envying their accomplishments and ‘spirit’. When we have conquered that apathy, the others will also be conquered, because only by being a single people (New Zealanders) and working together will we ever become a nation of achievers. For the last decade or more we have strived to be ‘average’; we are now led by a man who strove to be successful, I hope he can help us all to do that in the coming years.
November 20th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Dave, my comment was directed mainly at Robert Black. He has repeatedly made racist statements towards Maori. There are plenty racist Maori with a chip on their shoulder just like there are racist like Robert Black. Statement like his certainly do nothing for racial harmony in this country. They do just the opposite. I repeat I did not find your comments racist or those of Big Bruv who you were commenting on.
November 20th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Chuck Bird I’ve made similar comments and make no apology. If we ever want to address the problem we have to first pull our heads out of our PC arses and be brutally honest.
The fear of offending someone has gone on too long in this country and anyone who ignores the statistics and pretends this is not a Maori problem is FITH.
I have Maori relatives who say the same thing I am saying – and no – they don’t have a chip on their shoulder, but the majority of ‘indoctrinated’ maori do.
I don’t give a toss what comments don’t look good as it’s insignificant compared to the actions of these mongrel murdering bastards.
November 20th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Well said, Patrick, it is a start at least.
The long-term problem people have tried to fix long enough, or be scared to speak out because they fear being labelled as racist whites just as I have.
Like the white people are the only racist group in New Zealand.
the Maoris are not racist at all right? Especially not towards, white people, Asians, Polynesians not Maoris, and even their own race.
Such a harmonious, non-tribal, non-violent race.
Pull your head in man.
Trying to fix the long-term problem, give it another 200 years of payouts and soft treatment and guilt?
Being told you can’t fish, here or surf here, or hunt here unless you are a Maori?
The short-term problem is the disgusting violent crime that is being permitted to carry on in New Zealand.
The short-term solution?
There is none.
You are right people such as you with your short-term civil rights bleating will never allow capital pucishment in this country.
So, don’t complain when terrible “racist” people, who should have their comments deleted like me, start to get fed up and have enough balls to say it and when people in New Zealand start to take matters into their own hands.
November 20th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
I mean Chuck pull your head in.
November 20th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
How anyone can ignore statistics like this is beyond me
“Data from Census New Zealand 2006 indicates that Maori represent 14.6% of the general population aged 15 and over, however Maori make up 42% of criminal apprehensions and 50% of the prison population”
As I said earlier “Kahuis & King could hardly be considered impoverished with their combined welfare exceeded $100k p.a.”
Chuck, I’m interested in what you believe the problem is if you think it’s not a maori problem?
November 20th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
dave strings
“If a man saw another man assaulting a woman or child back then he would have grabbed a few neighbours and ’sorted them out’. The local cop on the beat would have attended to make sure nothing got out of hand, and the problem would have been dealt with; if it happened again, the neighbours would have taken the offender to the police station themselves! Today we have a society that is AFRAID to get involved because we have lost our sense of community.”
You are correct in this but also the other factors are that 1. we don’t share common values as they did then, so can’t apply common sense.
2. The police and govt have taken the legal and social “right” from us act as a community as they are the professionals and know better! which Stephen franks has written about in his self defence section on his blog.
(I note your local cop was there to make sure it didn’t get out of hand)
Though obviously this didn’t apply at the Rotorua Police station when their people were intimidating young abused girls before they applied to become lawyers or did jail time for pack rape.
November 21st, 2008 at 12:00 am
These days Turpin, people who defend themselves from violent and burglarising, robbing, criminals even in their own homes and shops, get prosecuted.
Oh, what a country.
I got knews for you Chuck, we aint Sweden.
November 21st, 2008 at 8:44 am
Patrick, I have to go out and will be out most of the day and will not be near a computer so I will do the best answer you. This is a debate worth having hopefully I will be able to continue it latter.
I arrived in New Zealand 1966. There was no where near the racial disharmony let alone racial tension that there is now. The fault as I see mainly lies with whites – namely white left wing academics who organised various so called disadvantaged groups into a political force. This group included woman, lesbians, male homosexuals, trade unionist and of course Maori.
It is human nature for many people in any group to take advantage of what ever is on offer. This does not just apply to Maori but woman and homosexuals. It also applies to business people. They will take advantage of tax loopholes.
Male homosexuals make up about 2 to 3% of the population at most yet account for about 80% of the HIV cases where this deadly disease is acquired in New Zealand. Instead of dealing with the cause of the problem Labour and National are happy fund the AIDS Foundation which is a homosexual lobby group. Some homosexual activists have even been lobbying for homosexuals to have the right to donate blood. This is sheer madness. I think it is fair comment on these issues although some may attack me as being homophobic. However, if I start attacking homosexuals as a group then the homophobic label may be justified.
The same applies to the race issue in this country. It is one thing to quote crime statistics and object to things like Maori seats and treaty settlements. It is another thing when the criticism descends into generalised racial abuse.
I do not have time to go through the archives but Robert Black has consistently crossed the line from criticising these issues to racial abuse.
I certainly agree that there are Maori racist but responding with general racist comments add to the problem.
The target should be politicians to change the laws not the Maori population in general.
I accept that there are Maori with a chip on their shoulder. However, people like Robert Black just polarise the situation.
I do not think it takes a lot balls to continue to make a lot of generalised racial comments on the internet. Talking about Maori crime rate and suggesting capital punishment as a solution sound racist to me. Do you disagree.
November 21st, 2008 at 11:29 am
Patrick,
“If from the moment your children can understand, they are taught they have been historically wronged what sort of an attitude do you believe they will grow up with?”
A sense of justice.
“These children are taught little else but resentment.”
Rubbish. Children who are brought up learning Maori culture and history are taught self-empowerment, self-respect and to have a positive view of the future.
Nia Glassies family were NOT brought up within Maori culture.
“You don’t need to be having full emersion in Maori culture for that. I have several Maori employees, none of which are from strong cultural teaching but all seem to have a chip on their shoulders nonetheless and do little else except talk of what Pakeha have taken from them.”
I suspect you don’t get to know them that well, and more importantly that you do not know many or any Maori who are learning tikanga and traditional Maori culture. I have met a few who are, and they are not negative people with a “chip” on their shoulder.
“I’m always quick to point out that they are not full blooded Maori, and should go and talk to their pakeha ancestors about it”
Almost nobody in a colonial nation is “full blooded” anything. Race is not the issue, culture is.
““Maori are over-represented in the crime stats” is probably the biggest understatement yet.”
Its a statement of fact, but it nevertheless does not prove anything about traditional Maori culture. Quite the opposite, it proves what happens when Maori are divorced from that culture and kept on the Pakeha socialist plantation we call the welfare system.
“I suppose we’ll agree to disagree on this one. – but one question; when most young Maori are living away from NZ (and the constant brainwashing) why to they seem to do so well ?”
They are not being held back by the European socialist welfare system Pakeha have imposed on them.
Being taught history is not “brainwashing”. Thats like saying that Jewish people who are taught about the horrors of the holocaust are being brainwashed. History is history, and we all have to take our share of responsibility for it and come to grips with it as adults. Pretending we can sweep it under the carpet and pretending it never happened is a recipe for disaster.
November 21st, 2008 at 11:50 am
Phil,
“Lee, what culture was it in the 1950’s that gave Maori and Pakeha alike, such low crime, violent crime, and murder rates?”
Christian. But we no longer live in a truly Christian culture, hence the problems. I would point out that many Maori I have met who are reclaiming Maori tikanga are often also staunch Christians and also often very conservative in their social views.
“Sorry, but I still agree with Melanie Phillips that this is a return to barbarism, whether the barbarism of our ancient Briton ancestors or our ancient Maori ancestors. Like it or not, there is a culture that displaces barbarism of any kind, wherever it is in the world, for the better.”
I understand what she is trying to say (and just to point out I often agree with Melanie on many issues) but here I think she is wrong.
What I think we are seeing is less a “return” to anything from the past and more the inevitable results of postmodernism and post-Christianity. The postmodern view is that their are no inherent meta-truths, that everything is just “opinion”, and that morality is just a matter of lifestyle choice. Postmodernism rejects tradition, moral law, civility and authority. Hence the “barbarism”.
Do not make the mistake that I am saying that pre-Christian Maori society we perfect and wonderful until Pakeha came along. It wasn’t. But the problems with many Maori people today have nothing to do with the tino rangatira movement as some of the posters above are claiming. They are the result of socialist welfarism and liberalism, and the answer to those are tino rangatira and Christian revival. One of the things I like about Destiny Church is that they combine both, and the positive results are there for all to see.
November 21st, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Phil,
It also occurred to me that the 1950′s was just at the start of the great migration of Maori from their tribal areas and culture, and into urban areas. As increasing numbers of Maori became more and more divorced from their family/tribal ties, and more and more divorced from Maori culture, we see the beginnings of the problems that are now bearing horrific fruit, like Nia Glassie.
Maori culture is not the problem. European urban liberalism and welfarism are.
November 21st, 2008 at 7:00 pm
“Rubbish. Children who are brought up learning Maori culture and history are taught self-empowerment, self-respect and to have a positive view of the future.”
Bullshit and you’re beginning to sound extremely PC
“Nia Glassies family were NOT brought up within Maori culture”. Never said they were. Most Maori (I’d be surprised to find one that isn’t), are told/taught about being wronged by pakeha. They are told/taught that they have been the victim of theft and all Maori woes are the result of this wrong. I am saying it is not helping maori by teaching them this crap that happened 180 years ago and has not affected this generation one bit. FFS move on and stop making these guys develop their hostility and resentment.
“Almost nobody in a colonial nation is “full blooded” anything. Race is not the issue, culture is.” so by way of example if I have 1/8th Indian blood – and 7/8 english blood does that give me the right to claim compensation for land confiscated by the British in India?- or perhaps only 1/8 of the value of my original claim?
“That’s like saying that Jewish people who are taught about the horrors of the holocaust are being brainwashed” They probably are! but it’s a dammed site more relevant, horrific and recent then what maori are getting fed.
You still haven’t explained why maori do so well when they are living overseas away from this crap? _ I know you’ll probably ask to provide some evidence – I cant – I can only go on the Maori I know – and the maori they know who have achieved so much when they break the grievance chain
As I said before I suppose we’ll agree to disagree on this one.
November 21st, 2008 at 7:08 pm
“You still haven’t explained why maori do so well when they are living overseas”
Yes I did. Look at my post again.
November 21st, 2008 at 7:14 pm
“They probably are! but it’s a dammed site more relevant, horrific and recent then what maori are getting fed.”
Disagree. For many Maori the issues are very recent in many respects. Talk to some of the older Kaumatua sometime. Some of ehat we are talking about is in human terms recent. But really that is besides the point. And they are not being “fed”. It’s their history.
November 21st, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Lee. I am a part of a huge whanau in Gisborne. My greatuncles grand children. (cousins second removed?) – and my family meet every year for a reunion.
“Talk to some of the older Kaumatua” you think? the ones I talk to (including ‘whanau’) think this is nothing but an industry. one that is destroying their people
they say – as do I: You ‘immerse’ to get riches
November 21st, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Just to put in my 5c worth, having a look at US violent crime statistics since the end of World War II (and they map our quite closely as well), they remained fairly stable until 1963 and then increased at a rapid rate until the mid 1990s where they tapered off but are now on the increase again. It is no small coincidence that 1963 was the year that the bible was removed from schools. Whether you share the beliefs of the bible or not, the moral teachings contained within it make for a good grounding for any child or adolescent, clearly not something these individuals posessed