Roger Douglas
The common theme on the left blogs seem to be to try and use Sir Roger as a bogeyman for the new Government, even though he won’t be a Minister in it.
I find this amusing as the new Leader and Deputy Leader of the Labour Party will be two of Sir Roger’s former loyal lieutenants.!
Yes Clark and Cullen did serve in Cabinet with Sir Roger, but they were in the Lange faction. Goff and King were definitely in the Douglas faction. Maybe a journalist could ask them whether or not they voted for Douglas to return to Cabinet in 1989, against Lange’s express wishes?
Personally I hope Sir Roger is made Chairman of the Finance and Expenditure Select Committee. He would do a good job holding both Departments and Ministers to account for their spending.
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Tags: 4th Labour Government, Annette King, Labour Leadership, Phil Goff, Roger Douglas
November 11th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Wash your mouth out David – expecting journalists to ask probing questions… sheesh…
November 11th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Why bother addressing this scaremongering David. It was a conerstone of the lefts campaign and clearly it was utterly rejected.
Between that and the fact that sir Roger was working for Labour then it really is just more deperate flooping about from a landed fish.
Let them keep fighting the election, it will only serve highlight their nasty attitudes to democracy.
November 11th, 2008 at 11:17 am
First test for Key, as to whether he has the balls to face down the left wing media, whose purpose in life is apparently to continuously confront National with Labour Party talking points.
John Key needs to embrace ACT, appoint Hide and Douglas and Roy to Ministerial positions and get on with the damn job of rescuing NZ from impending financial calamity. The calamity that has occurred to a large degree as a result of the Labour party and their lying media plants leading the whole country by the nose. Do what is right. Do what is necessary, and get on with it. To hell with the squawks of the damn lying wittering media/labour party conglomerate. Who the damn hell cares what they think???? They lost.
November 11th, 2008 at 11:21 am
As Douglas himself pointed out on radio on Sunday – none of the reforms he put in place in the 80s have been done away with by any subsequent government. They must have been the right thing to do if eighteen years later they are still there.
November 11th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Sir Roger has been chafing at the bit for years, in the confidence that if he only got the CHANCE to take his story and his message to the people of NZ, everything could be a lot better. He has had open challenges in the public domain for a long time, for a television debate with ANYONE with whom it could be organised; but his political opponents and the media WON’T LET IT HAPPEN.
This is dangerously like totalitarianism, the “approved view” of history that grants no opportunity for defenses to be made by those smeared by it.
When Peru got a somewhat free market government a couple of decades ago, the finance minister was on TV for 5 minutes a week, explaining the underlying economics and the need for reforms, in simple terms. A similar phenomenon occurred here in a less obvious way, during the reforms of the Lange/Douglas years.
It is just historical suicide to leave all public information and instruction in the hands of economic illiterates and emotion-driven political agendas.
November 11th, 2008 at 11:23 am
First is to face down Hide I’d have thought. You’d think ACT got the 48% not less votes than NZ 1st.
November 11th, 2008 at 11:30 am
And yet Rodney is part of the goverment and Peters is gone.
Oh dear,
how sad,
never mind.
I beleive the public made it clear they wanted an Act/National government, that means some of Acts policies. Unlike Sue Bradfords social engineering nightmare I think we’ll find there is actually some support for Rodneys wish list. Screw to ETS, our job is US first. When China stops opening a new coal fired power plant every week we’ll talk. Till then giving Russians 2 billion isn;t on my to do list.
November 11th, 2008 at 11:34 am
True, every silver lining has a cloud, as they say.
Hush Murray, who will buy our coal!
November 11th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Redbaiter (4313) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 11th, 2008 at 11:17 am
“First test for Key, as to whether he has the balls to face down the left wing media, whose purpose in life is apparently to continuously confront National with Labour Party talking points.
John Key needs to embrace ACT, appoint Hide and Douglas and Roy to Ministerial positions and get on with the damn job of rescuing NZ from impending financial calamity…….”
ABSOLUTELY, Redbaiter.
I have been posting lengthy comments on this for weeks; my latest one is on the “Labour’s Temporary Leader” thread two down from this one (as the system was not allowing me to get onto the appropriate thread). I am asking DPF to please devote a thread to the issue of NZ’s true economic position and outlook; or perhaps we need to use a “general debate” thread for this when DPF puts it up.
The rest of your comments about the media are right on, too. The media DID actually manage to act economically responsibly during the Lange years, but that was the LAST time, and it was certainly OVER by the time Lange lost his nerve and called for the cup of tea. The fact that the mess had been created by a “Tory” (at least in name, and certainly a conservative on moral issues), that they heartily despised, Rob Muldoon; and the fact that the need for reform had been admitted by figures on the LEFT of NZ politics at the time; were significant factors in the media’s grudging co-operation at that time. Douglas, Moore, Prebble, Caygill, Bassett, Neilson, Shirley, DeCleene…….to name a few off the top of my head….
those were remarkable times. And as others have pointed out, Clark and Goff and some others who are still around in these “post-Rogernomics” days, certainly went along with the reforms at the time.
Margaret Thatcher said of Mikhael Gorbachev, when Ronald Reagan credited Gorbachev with the wisdom to adopt reform; that Gorbachev was NOT a “reformer”; it was merely that the Communist country he was in charge of was BROKE. Maybe we need to go there again? It may not take long before Helen Clark and Phil Goff or their heirs need to go along with Roger Douglas or his heir once again, eh?
November 11th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Speaking of emotional driven agendas and economic illiterates, aren’t these the same dimwits who were trying to convince us all last week that Sarah Palin was the goods?
November 11th, 2008 at 11:39 am
“Hush Murray, who will buy our coal!”
Of course using it ourselves would be a light year beyond your imagination.
November 11th, 2008 at 11:40 am
David:
great minds think alike on the Douglas for FEC thing:
http://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/rob-hosking/wake-me-once-winston-s-gone
November 11th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Werent you the one talking about John Kerry as “the goods”?
November 11th, 2008 at 11:42 am
“John Key needs to embrace ACT, appoint Hide and Douglas…”
I entirely agree with the above idea. It shoud be done…but it won’t happen. Key is timidity himself and a prisoner of his own words (“Douglas will not be in Cabinet”).
If only the Tories would grow a spine.
November 11th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Not at all – we have lots of it. Most of the South Island actually. And if we could work out how to make petrol from lignite (economically) we’d really be in business.
November 11th, 2008 at 11:48 am
# lloydois (164) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating1 Says:
November 11th, 2008 at 11:38 am
“Speaking of emotional (sic) driven agendas and economic illiterates, aren’t these the same dimwits who were trying to convince us all last week that Sarah Palin was the goods?”
Illydois, come back and say that after President Obama and the Harry Reid/Nancy Pelosi Democrats have had 3 years to do what they will with the US economy.
Clearly there would be no point trying to debate fiscal or monetary policy options with you now. If you care to pay a regular visit to the Von Mises Institute website and learn from the regular articles they post, you might get a handle on economic reality. The next few years will be the “big government” induced death of the West; not the “free market” induced death.
I was wrong about the US election and wrong about the capacity of the people of the US not to succumb to the same trend that Europe and Canada and NZ have succumbed to. God knows where we are all headed now.
November 11th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Key will tell Rodders count the numbers, if Hide steps out of line by demanding a important portfolio for Douglas it will be goodbye ACT hello cuzzies.
One thing Key does know, put Douglas in as finance minister and he can be sure of getting one term only for National.
So as much as you mouth breathing right wingers want it, Key will not give away any more of the state silver.
A flat tax, dream on ACT got 3.5 % , their chances of making big changes are nil and fuck all.
Nope, Key will leave that old man to sleep on the back benches and he can dream what might have been.
Of course if Rodders steps too far out of line, he may find the Nats making a real effort in Epsom come 2011.
November 11th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
PhilBest, good god are you saying that wasilla hillbilly known as Palin will be the Republicans candidate in 2011 ?
No wonder some evil Democrats believe they should vote for her in the primaries.
She is ready to be President right now, yeah right.
Tell me, do you Palin supporters really believe she has the intellectual firepower of Thatcher, Palin who took six years to do a three year degree ?
November 11th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
grumpyoldhori “A flat tax, dream on ACT got 3.5 %”
Act will not be pushing for a flax tax this term. Their policy is for flat tax rate over the long term. Therefore they will be happy to support lowering and flattening the tax in this term. Over time as government spending, welfare etc etc are brought under control and the economy grows then the tax rate will get lower and lower.
As for Roger Douglas… I’m sure Rodders has enough sense not to demand a cabinet position for him, but will push for his experience to be utilised in some regard. Rodders knows that the tail does not wag the dog. Policy wins in law and order, govt spending, and the ETS this term will be good wins.
When the public see what a great contribution to the govt Act is they will be back next time with even more MPs and a bigger mandate to get even more policy wins.
November 11th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
We burn it ourselves was my plan Llew.
November 11th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Riddle me this, in a left wing style:
If our system was STV, or if you merely support the idea, how much support does ACT technically have now that National has given it’s support to match Hide’s? 3.5% plus a percentage of National support?
I know it’s weak.
But I’m not totaly convinced that 3.5% is in fact, in practical terms, 3.5%. How much power did the greens get for their portion of the vote in 2005? A lot more. And National ditching ACT to go with Maori? It would be interesting, but not much chance of it happening unless the government was going belly up in a Winston style intrique.
November 11th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
What I find odd is Key’s insistence that Douglas will not be a Minister in his government. Isn’t he aware that Rodney and Roger are in the same party and actually hold the same economic and political beliefs? What’s the difference, except for the fact that Roger actually carried out the policies in the 80s that ACT wants to return to? It makes no sense.
November 11th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
If those of you anti Roger Douglas people cared to listen to him you would find that his policies are quite moderate. Allowing parents to choose their child’s school, allowing people to save for their own retirement and providing people with the means to pay for their own health insurance if they choose.
Rogers main idea was to remove the privileges from the elite, quite socialist really.
November 11th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
GrumpyOldHori, I didn’t mention “Sarah Palin, 2012″ but if you must know what I think, I think that Ronald Reagan was one of the greatest ever Presidents, and he spent 2 terms being lampooned by the media for his lack of intellectual firepower.
McCain turned me off completely in his last Wall Street Journal Op-Ed on election eve, when he promised to ensure, if elected, that Americans would NOT suffer from falling house prices !!!!!!!!!!!!
Sooooo, FFS, if THAT was the next best choice to a term of Obama/Reid/Pelosi, as Mark Steyn put it, it wasn’t 2 choices, it was 1 and a half choices………
It is remarkable that some “slow-witted” leaders like Ronald Reagan, do a whale of good for their country’s economy through their understanding of the power of freedom. Some very good leaders in history didn’t go to Uni at all. I admire our own Mike Moore, for example.
There might be valid reasons that Sarah Palin took 6 years to do a 3 year degree, Grumpy. And while we’re talking about University careers, didn’t both Obama and Hillary Clinton shut down under privacy law, all access to THEIR academic careers? Why? Do you regard that as acceptable?
But no, I have no opinion on whether or not Sarah Palin would be the right candidate for 2012; I do think McCain was completely the wrong one for 2008. I sincerely hope that there is a “Reagan renewal” in 2012, whoever the candidates are that represent it.
By the way, are you an admirer of Margaret Thatcher? Good on you if you are.
November 11th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
kiki are you asking those on the left to think for themselves?
November 11th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
That is right, Kiki.
I love the way Roger Douglas put it in his later books, that a solo mum with 3 kids is getting about 100 grand a year of taxpayer money spent on her and her kids benefit, housing, health, and education, yet because of government inefficiency, she and her kids are nowhere NEAR living like an EARNER of 100 grand a year even if that earner is PAYING tax, AND paying to send their kids to a private school, AND paying for health insurance. His suggestion was that we should just give the solo mum the 100 grand per year. Does that justify the sort of smearing he has been subjected to?
EDIT: Just read Hagues’ comment…….
TOUCHE, Hagues…….
November 11th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Hmmmmm… Yep, we’ve got one of the greatest economists of our times as a coalition partner, but screw it, he can sit in the back benches and keep his mouth shut. Can anyone really see this happening?
November 11th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
I’m going to disagree vis-a-vis ACT. I don’t think that the election result was a mandate for ACT to push their policies on national, however much the act faction that posts here might want. I would support amny of ACT’s policies, but I don’t believe the mandate is there, at least, not yet. Like it or not, National’s policies were those they campaigned on, and although concessions are part of the negotiations, big concessions are not warranted. Get over it and be thankful for small mercies.
Longer term, if you can establish a constituency for more radical change, go for it, otherwise you’re no better than the left in seeking to impose solutions upon a populace unwilling to accept them.
November 11th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
I think although it is probably too late now
ACT and the Maori Party should get together, and try and get the education portfolio
Then introduce a voucher scheme which would be of a major benefit to both their constituencies (sp?)
As a bonus it would really piss off the left
November 11th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Its a small point chaps but could you please show Sir Roger the respect he deserves and use his correct title.
Unlike most who have the title “Sir” Douglas is one man who has well and truly earned the title and respect.
November 11th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
the correct title..’chaps’..for douglas..
..is ‘the splenetic one’..
..a title he has ‘well and truly earned’..
..anyone wanna start a sweepstake for the date of his upcoming choleric implosion..?
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 11th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
I’m still digesting this one.
November 11th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Phool
Found a job yet?
November 11th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
yeah..!
..as an attack dog…!
(..i think i could be up for it..eh..?..)
..you rightwing mongrels are going to be my playthings/chew-toys..
..eh..?
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 11th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Phool
Given that you are indeed barking mad I think you may have found your vocation.
Seriously though Phool, have you done anything about it yet?
It might be better for you to do it voluntarily before you are forced by the new Government.
November 11th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
I thought this one wasn’t going to tell us how to run our lives?
November 11th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Sounds like you’re asking for trouble llew
November 11th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Not really, just impressed that while everything changes… nothing does. And amused at the welcoming party assembling for the 2nd coming of Sirrog.
November 11th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Revealed – the secret agenda – Key addresses the nation after seeing the dreadful state of the books – ” I will not renege on my promises of tax cuts or fund them through stealth tax increases” Afterwards – Rodney as minister for local government and Roger as chair of the select committee on expenditure you will need to take a meat axe to wasteful/unproductive spending rather than a razor – have fun!!
November 11th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Shhh lloydois, I’m sure that if someone in, say, the NZ Labour Party didn’t know Africa was a continent and not a country, we’d be equally forgiving *cough*. Kinda mistake anyone could make.
Excellent idea for Sir Roger, DPF. I’d always thought he’d be better used as the fiscal equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition, having overpaid government CEOs dragged before him and made to explain what value we’re getting for the horrendous amounts of money they send, including their own salaries.
As a Minister he’d have responsibility for just one department. As, say, something in Associate Finance he’d have a basically toothless “overview” role, with his ankles hobbled by the Minister. But as Chairman of the Finance and Expenditure Select Committee, the bloated bureaucracies would be making their own cuts rather than have to face him and explain their profligacy.
Here’s hoping your advice is heeded.
November 11th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
still dreaming about what could be..?..eh freethinker..?
..if only..!
..eh..?
..hasn’t the penny dropped yet that you have a centrist prime minister..?
..who is trying to distance himself as much as possible from rightwing nutjobs like act..
..give us a yell when you wake up..
..eh..?
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 11th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
phool
Has the penny dropped that your lot lost the election?
Nothing you post here has any credibility.
How is that CV looking?
November 11th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
llew, I think you’ll find that no one really gives a toss about people living off taxpayers money being coerced into doing anything, as broadly opposed to *taxpayers* being told what to do.
November 11th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
emmess I’m with you, ACT and the Maori party should get education between them and really make a difference. That would be the biggest blow to Labour
November 11th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
True – I misread that & neglected to notice the “get a job” comment. Context, context…
November 11th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Fantastic idea Rex. I could not think of a better person to trim the fat in the public sector.
November 11th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Roger for King!
November 11th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Unfortunately Roger Douglas is the man to fix NZ, but Key blew that by promising to exclude him.
Keys economic policies are a pale shade of Rog’s
Roger is hailed internationally as THE man who fixed NZ. And , I heard someone say that none of the subsequent governments ever reversed Rogers changes (I was a youngster back then so he was a bit before my time).
The lefties say Rog ruined NZ – But, wasn’t NZ nearly bankrupt? How can lefties justify spending money they don’t have? If Rog hadn’t have made his changes I think we’d be worse off today.
November 11th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
The thing is Wreck, I’m not keen on the country being used for radical economic experiments by a right-wing theorist who’s old enough and rich enough to just not care about the outcome. First, I want to be convinced of why I should put my faith in good old Roger.
If what he is proposing we do is such “common sense” and so very clearly “right” then why don’t we see clear and simple explanations of it, and supporters extolling its virtues in plain English, everywhere?
November 11th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
ratbaiter “If what he is proposing we do is such “common sense” and so very clearly “right” then why don’t we see clear and simple explanations of it, and supporters extolling its virtues in plain English, everywhere?”
You mean like most countries moving to lower and flatter taxes?
November 11th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Ratbiter – we don’t because the media won’t publish them. Simple really. Anything that doesn’t fit their preconceived thoughts of what their readers/listeners want to hear, shouldn’t be discussed.
My view is that ACT aren’t in a position to demand anything. And nor do they need to. The relationship between ACT and National won’t be one where ACT demand, and National grudgingly give. I think they are more friendly than that, and there are a number of areas of overlap in policy (and, in fact, overlap with the Maori Party as well). There are also a number of areas where ACT has policy or policy ideas that National doesn’t have, but that National have no objection to. It simply isn’t true that every policy of ACT involves eating live babies, those that don’t involve baby eating are actually quite palatable.
As for the Maori v’s ACT – basically any law that any group in parliament can get a majority for, gets passed (assuming it gets drawn from the ballot etc). If Key can get enough support for a particular law without turning to ACT, he’ll pass it. If he can get it from National/ACT, then he’ll pass that. Presumably if ACT could get support for a law from Labour, Maori, Greens and ACT, they’d go ahead and pass it, even if National didn’t like it. That is the nature of our representative democracy, and it isn’t really all that exciting. Personally I look forward to the day when parties formally considered to be the “opposition” can put forward ideas and get them into law without the major government party’s support. It would be healthy.
So, what does all this mean? It means that those of ACTs policies that National finds palatable will probably get implemented. Particularly those that both ACT and Maori support (there are some of those). It may mean that a couple of things that National don’t care that much about but wouldn’t do on their own get passed, and a few more things that ACT would prefer were a bit different but can live with get passed. Trying to beat this up into some sort of lurch to the right, or some sort of showdown with Hide, is really just silly.
November 11th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
A Roger Douglas with nothing to keep him busy could do more damage to the National government than the actual opposition.
November 11th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
It’s the gift that keeps on giving watching all these Lefties panic about their precious Labour appointed privileges evaporating over night.
These Lefties should get use to it, there’s a new sheriff in town.
Roger Douglas is the best MP in the new parliament. He should be given an important role to do in between giving John Key advice on how to fix the broken economy Labour has left the new National/ACT government.
As a side issue, what’s Roger Douglas going to say in his opening speech to parliament? Will Clark and Cullen be rude bitches again and make themselves absent from parliament? If so then the new government should make damn sure Clark is never appointed to any international body that represents New Zealand. Let her disappear into obscurity.
November 11th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
“Shhh lloydois, I’m sure that if someone in, say, the NZ Labour Party didn’t know Africa was a continent and not a country, we’d be equally forgiving *cough*. Kinda mistake anyone could make.”
You need to wake up to the fact that Palin is the victim of a massive disinformation campaign conducted by her political enemies and designed to undermine her political credibility. Your feeble compulsion to smugly repeat every lie that is told about her is quite nauseating. Definitely not brave.
The frenzy with which the left have attacked her demonstrates one thing- they fear her immensely, and the reason they fear her is because she possesses the ability to destroy their dogma. Not drinking any of the cool aid that media driven wimps like you gulp down by the litre Rex, she speaks truth and sanity. Uncowed by Marxist political correctness, she confronts the so called intelligentsia and academics on their transparent bullshit, and as always when such an event occurs, they have nothing. Nothing but hate and denigration that is, and the desire to destroy.
She has been portrayed as something completely different to what she is, and its time you woke up to this kind of propaganda based manipulation of public opinion. Most people with a brain have long ago.
November 12th, 2008 at 7:05 am
On saving money.
Key just told the journo’s to book their own seats to Uruguay. Keep that up I’d say. No more free lunches for the pond scum.
November 12th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
“..How is that CV looking?.”
both the left and right ones are looking shaky..(thanks for asking..)
..d’yaknow any good mechanics up here in our sub-tropical paradise..auckland..?
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 12th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
does anyone else see the humour in someone calling themselves ‘wreck’
..extolling the ‘virtues’/financial acumen of ol’ wodger..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 13th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
PhilU: Hyde Automotive, Crum Ave in New Lynn.