TV3 Debate

November 3rd, 2008 at 8:21 pm by David Farrar

Well I would be surprised if anyone made their mind up watching that .

My biggest gripe is far far too much time was spent on process issues such as trust, coalitions, longevity, experience and almost no time on policy. I wanted a debate contrasting policy positions.

NZPA have said:

CLARK AND KEY COME OUT EVEN IN SECOND LEADERS DEBATE

and argued over economic policy and asked voters to believe they were good leaders during tough times when they went head to head tonight in the second election campaign leaders debate.

’s held them on a tighter rein than Mark Sainsbury did during the first debate and tried to trip them up himself with questions about flip-flops, trust and manifesto promises.

It didn’t work because they were both quick on their feet and the best value came from some sharp exchanges over who had the most promising plans for the future.

But if viewers expected something new they didn’t get it.

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137 Responses to “TV3 Debate”

  1. convicted radical (65 comments) says:

    Yawn

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  2. Hagues (703 comments) says:

    yip snooze fest

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  3. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Helen didn’t get her own way!

    The obituary is being written right now!

    Change is good.

    Bye bye labour toss pots. Mike Williams has fucked their campaign!

    Happy Days.

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  4. theodoresteel (91 comments) says:

    I thought Campbell ruined it a little. He talked too much, far too much

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  5. Game on (4 comments) says:

    Where was this entry before the debate? The comment stream would have easily made better entertainment than that talkfest!

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  6. Ross Elliot (83 comments) says:

    For starters, John Campbell is a twat. Constantly interjecting, even when he said he’d give them time to outline their positions. He’s a grandstander, and he fucked it up completely. I can’t believe I’m saying this, but Sainsbury looked like Walter Cronkite by comparison. I’d hate to see Campbell moderating a family group conference–by the time he’d finished with the poor bastards, there would be several more crimes to investigate. He’s that annoying.

    The debate itself? Forget it. Two centrists battling for ground zero.

    Post debate, Campbell is still annoying, but at least he has three friends to keep him company: McManus, Johansson, and Linda Clark (long time, no see, great rack). The only salient point was from Johannson saying that if National looks like they’re going to run away with it, that many might throw their party vote to ACT in an attempt to stiffen National’s resolve. Not a bad theory.

    Did I say Campbell was a twat?

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  7. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    She still squealed like a straggled cat.

    The panel after is calling a JK victory this weekend.

    Do you think that McManus woman votes ACT? She was basically endorsing National voters now that it is clear they will romp in to bolster ACT’s part vote.

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  8. noskire (837 comments) says:

    Clark needed to gain momentum here. Key held his own. The big surprise will be the special votes from ex-pats – National could still govern alone.

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  9. Gravyman62 (37 comments) says:

    I’m constantly amazed at how bad our high profile media stars are at interviewing and constructing questions. As someone who makes my living from interviewing people, I can honestly say both Sainsbury and Campbell wouldn’t survive outside of TV.

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  10. Michael E (274 comments) says:

    I declare John Campbell the winner – he didn’t let the others explain anything!

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  11. big bruv (13,688 comments) says:

    I thought John Key gave a good polished performance in keeping with his insipid “Don’t scare the horses” campaign strategy where as Klark just came across as vicious, nasty and bereft of ideas.

    However, the most heartening part of the whole thing for me was the suggestion from McManus and Johansen that support for ACT is growing rapidly and that Key may have no option but to form a coalition with ACT and accept some of ACT’s policies.

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  12. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    Johannson was basically writing Helens obituary on the panel.

    She’s a gone burger.

    I bet she’s pissed big time with Micheal Jones. What a streak of genius that was.

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  13. dime (9,805 comments) says:

    fuck i laughed!

    Helens new strategy when john was talking over her was to put her hand up and say “yes john, yes john” like she was placating an angry child.. i guess they thought she would come off looking like a better leader..

    INSTEAD john just kept going, cambell jumped in and helen was left standing there with her hand in the air.. you could see her wondering how the hell she would get it back without retreating..

    “play me off johnny”

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  14. tknorriss (327 comments) says:

    That was incredibly boring. I heard nothing new that they haven’t already been parroting for the last few weeks. Very stage-managed and sanitised. Don’t think I’ll bother watching to the last one. I’ve decided I’m voting National weeks ago. If I see much more of this I’ll end up voting Act.

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  15. GTP (42 comments) says:

    Did you see the ads for the debate beforehand ? you’d think it was all about John Campbell.

    He was trying to do what everyone said Sainsbury didn’t do but in hindsight I preferred Sainsbury’s approach.

    Tonight was a draw, maybe key by the slightest of noses. He certainly looked more in control, Clark looked tired and haggard, even my Labour voting wife said so.

    The camera angle didn’t favour Clark either.

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  16. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    I don’t think John key did to well, perhaps it was Helen Clark who is very good politician, just makes it look so.

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  17. freethinker (688 comments) says:

    Clarkes body language and demeanor said it all – she knows she on the way out. The real fun will be Labour imploding, Winston going incandesant and hopefully spilling the beans on Labour big time.

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  18. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    Even John Campbell asked Key a question about how he had heard Nationals own private polling showed them streaking ahead.

    When is the next poll due?

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  19. southnat (6 comments) says:

    John looked sharp and showed confidence. Helen Clark just looks more and more like an old boiler these days. Nothing Fresh on the left side of street.

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  20. Michaels (1,318 comments) says:

    Campbell screwed it, hope Close Up doesn’t do the same thing.
    Key got some good points in, and Clark kept looking rattled. (Edwards must have told her to put out the olive branch with her wrinkly old hand).
    My biggest disappointment was the “experts” at the end apart from their final words of National will win.
    All in all though……. I should have gone for a game of tennis!!

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  21. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    I think Key won the debate, All the panelists picked him as the next PM but I agree with McManus – he’s trying to please too many people at the expense of defining policy.
    Party Vote Act!

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  22. first time caller (384 comments) says:

    I noticed Campbell interrupted Key at every opportunity yet let Clark dribble on for far longer.

    Key looked much more spritely, Clark looked positively sour and haggard…

    So no surprises then

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  23. Lindsay Addie (1,413 comments) says:

    Debate was a bore, Campbell won hands down by interrupting all the time. He should STFU.

    The election is all but decided IMHO. Clark looks and acts like she knows the game is up. She looks very tired.

    It’ll be a National – ACT – Dunny coalition with a majority of 2 – 5 seats.

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  24. Craig Ranapia (1,915 comments) says:

    Meanwhile, I’ll have what Jenny McMannus is having. And if it comes in tablets all the better…

    Otherwise, they both stuck to their talking points like grim death and I actually give Campbell a little credit for trying to derail the flow. Hopeless task, but snaps for trying.

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  25. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    But Patrick isn’t that the best out come. National majority with a good kick up the arse from ACT.

    GTP get control of your wife :)

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  26. adc (588 comments) says:

    John Campbell wants us all to vote Green.

    So much was plainly evident from his interview of Russel Norman a week or so ago.

    So no wonder he wants both Labour and National to look bad.

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  27. dime (9,805 comments) says:

    i thought she might have handled the inga/jones endorsement a bit better…

    just dismissed them as “ex-rugby players”

    she should be careful insulting a great man like michael jones.

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  28. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    As the panel mentioned. Tomorrow is the Cup and Wednesday US elections.

    Helen the phone has just been hung up, its been disconnected.

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  29. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Sure is SR. They need a fucken good kick in the arse to shift them from where they are

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  30. adc (588 comments) says:

    As for Sainsbury, he’s a soggy biscuit

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  31. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    Agree Dime. In Sth Auckland he isn’t just another rugby player and he does a hell of a lot of work for the community.

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  32. GTP (42 comments) says:

    Regarding the inga/jones thing. She’s started rambling something about one of them being the son of a National party supporter or something like that. I couldn’t quite catch what she was saying but I’d doubt it was true.

    I nearly fell off my chair laughing when she tried to say it was her who approached National about support for the Anti Smacking bill

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  33. Colonel Masters (409 comments) says:

    Most enraging part of the debate was when Campbell interrupted John Key (who had been clearly explaining something):

    JC: “Hang on a sec, hang on a sec, because I’m interested in this…”

    Well, why not let him bloody well tell you!

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  34. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    Sure Rodney twice today on the human hoadings on Shore Rd. He was looking mighty fine in his yellow jacket.

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  35. NX (504 comments) says:

    I’ve never seen someone take on Helen quite the way John Key doesn’t. And for that reason alone the debate was bloody good value.

    John, if anything, intimidates Helen Clark.

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  36. democracymum (648 comments) says:

    After watching the debate in my sunglasses, boy anyone would think that TV3 wanted
    us all to vote Green I have just one question…

    HELEN CLARK DOESN”T APPEAR TO BE WEARING A WEDDING RING – WHY NOT?

    Did anyone else spot this obvious mistake, is it recently lost, in at the jewellers perhaps?

    What a mystery, can anyone else spread any light on this perplexing question.
    I know there are many man who choose not to wear a ring, but I have never, ever
    met a married woman who does not wear a wedding ring.

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  37. cocamc007 (31 comments) says:

    fatal mistake to belittle the endorsement of Inga and Jones. These two have great, if not god like status, with the Pacific Island communities

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  38. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Sainsbury is just a big fucken couch cushion by comparison. I don’t even think he’s exciting enough to front Praise Be

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  39. Lindsay Addie (1,413 comments) says:

    There is a poll asking readers who won the debate
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/

    Early days yet but currently 80% think John Key won.

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  40. noskire (837 comments) says:

    # NX (227) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    November 3rd, 2008 at 8:49 pm

    I’ve never seen someone take on Helen quite the way John Key doesn’t. And for that reason alone the debate was bloody good value.

    John, if anything, intimidates Helen Clark.

    Have to agree NX. If anything, he rattles her.

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  41. jackp (668 comments) says:

    Wow, what a sideshow!! I have no idea what John Campbell was running for but to make my vote with my text I put K after John not to be confused with the other candidate, John Campbell. Mark Sainsbury is much more professional and controlled the debate far better and kept his own opinions out of the debate. John C kept interjecting and wouldn’t let the candidates finish what they started. I know who won the debates…..Mark Sainsbury!!!

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  42. democracymum (648 comments) says:

    Actually another very revealing titbit was the bit about why they campaigned on Trust.
    They had the H bomb tucked away ready to explode for some months, hence the
    campaign slogan. Up until now I hadn’t really put the two things together.

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  43. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    “HELEN CLARK DOESN”T APPEAR TO BE WEARING A WEDDING RING – WHY NOT?”

    Its a Tizard family heirloom

    “They had the H bomb tucked away ready to explode for some months, hence the campaign slogan”
    Some 18 months!

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  44. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    Best we keep voting on the Herald site so the 9th floor doesn’t rig it.

    Anyone else see sideswipe today with the picture of the truck with an “over Helen” sign instead of over load.

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  45. convicted radical (65 comments) says:

    Democracymum

    I heard Hulun say she was a free spirit, that might explain it.

    Besides, I couldnt find any reference to her, her:
    http://www.rainbowlabour.org.nz/candidates.html

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  46. getstaffed (9,186 comments) says:

    Lindsay Addie – Key well ahead 264 to 64 at 8:57. Wait until the 9th floor staffers and bots get busy tho.

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  47. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    agree GS – Lindsay Addie you need to spread that poll around the blogsphere

    an impression of confidence in the leadership may decide many swings

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  48. Lindsay Addie (1,413 comments) says:

    The trouble Helen has with Key in these debates is one of style. Key comes across as reasonable but firm and doesn’t lose his temper with her. Clark tends to talk AT PEOPLE in strange diatribes and would prefer Key to play her game but he refuses to join in.

    The best line of the debate was when Key reminded Clark she helped to sell Telecom.
    :lol:

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  49. Helensphotogenicimposter (244 comments) says:

    I never saw the debate. After events of last week, Helen would be naive to think John Key would lie down quietly. However, If we wore different tinted glasses and blogged onto a rainbow socialist website the mood would be all in favour of Helen Clark.

    Anyway, this debate had no influence on who I voted for. I cast an early vote today. Rodney, and hopefully Roger got my party vote.

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  50. Craig Ranapia (1,915 comments) says:

    Regarding the inga/jones thing. She’s started rambling something about one of them being the son of a National party supporter or something like that. I couldn’t quite catch what she was saying but I’d doubt it was true.

    And I thought the “Christian conservative” crack was a little odd, and Key should have jumped on it. After all, Clark has been working every damn PI church in South Auckland — most of which are not particularly “progressive” when it comes to teh gayz, cohabitation without benefit of clergy, women clergy and so forth. But I guess one woman’s weirdo “cult” full of brown people (Destiny Church) becomes something quite different when there’s votes to be had.

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  51. noskire (837 comments) says:

    Labour tried to drop a neutron bomb with a Tigermoth, a plane that never had the chance to clear the runway.

    National may have delivered a precision stealth bomber strike today in South Auckland.

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  52. Alan Wilkinson (1,868 comments) says:

    I agree Key won easily on the emotional level. McManus is right, electorate vote N and party vote A is the right strategy in safe N seats for N supporters. Though she didn’t spell out the reason properly – which is to rort a defective voting system the way the Left and Maori parties have been doing.

    I didn’t think much of any of the commentators. Brilliant strategy by Key in South Auckland today obviously has Labour shaken and stirred.

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  53. Lindsay Addie (1,413 comments) says:

    Re that Herald poll. I recall that the Herald took steps to make sure their polls couldn’t be stacked after some Labour plonker did precisely that to one of their polls about 6 months ago.

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  54. big bruv (13,688 comments) says:

    Southernraider

    When talking about Michael Jones please do the man the honour of using his correct title……GOD!

    I do not share GOD’s Christian beliefs but if there is one true GOD then it is indeed Michael Niko Jones, he was simply the greatest rugby player the world has ever seen.

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  55. firsttimevoter1 (2 comments) says:

    Debate was boring as hell… ive heard all the same stuf from both leaders…John Campbell was good,at least he grilled them..

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  56. Ross Elliot (83 comments) says:

    The best line of the debate was when Key reminded Clark she helped to sell Telecom.

    Oh, sure. Shame he didn’t follow it up by getting his cock out of his pants and promise to sell any other state asset that doesn’t have something to do with core government functions.

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  57. GTP (42 comments) says:

    Has The Standard or Chris Trotter declared it a win for Clark yet ?

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  58. Alan Wilkinson (1,868 comments) says:

    Lindsay Addie, I thought the best line was Key’s response when asked the difference between Cullen & English – “Bill English has charm!”

    Good chuckle there.

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  59. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    Sorry Big Bruv.

    All Key needs now is the Mad Butcher to come out in support and the South will be taken.

    Will be interesting now if other well known people don’t start coming out and backing National.

    All the Greens seem to get is dumb arse slapper actresses.

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  60. Lindsay Addie (1,413 comments) says:

    Alan W,

    :lol:

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  61. democracymum (648 comments) says:

    John Campbell is a good example of why we need our own Fox Channel
    Talk about full of himself, and Bill O’Reily he is not.

    Paul Henry does it as well, if you are going to ask someone
    a question, then at least give them time to answer before
    you but in over the top with some inane comment.

    And who designed that set – are they colour blind?

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  62. Paul Marsden (991 comments) says:

    A debate?? It was a circus and Campbell was the clown. The only person he listens to is himself and what he is going to say next. Good God he’s an irrating little creep!

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  63. s.russell (1,603 comments) says:

    Helen Clark’s performance was much improved from the first debate. She made a real effort not to appear nasty, and smiled a lot more (sometimes in inappropriate places).

    But John Key? On another level entirely. Calm, clear, precise, genuine, and firm. An absolutely brilliant performance.

    And remember: Key is not trying to win over Act voters. He is trying to reassure middle-of-the-road voters who are undecided between National and Labour. He did that perfectly.

    The commentators, on the other hand, were prats. Tired old hacks who were all disappointed that there was not enough blood on the floor. They just didn’t understand what it was all about.

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  64. stayathomemum (140 comments) says:

    Linda Clark had a point I had not thought of – the rest of the week is tied up with Melbourne Cup, US election, Guy Fawkes, so the media spotlight is not focused 100% on our election. If any last minute points needed to be made, they needed to be made before now. All Labour have left is the bad taste of Mike Williams’ dirt digging in peoples mouths, to ponder for the next few days, whereas John Key has his coup with the Rugby stars – photos and personal endorsements!

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  65. Lindsay Addie (1,413 comments) says:

    Am I the only person who thinks the sets and lecturns TV3 used were goddam awful?

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  66. mickysavage (786 comments) says:

    I thought Helen won.

    I share however the commentators’ frustration. I could not work out the policy differences between National and Labour. I do not agree with them however that there are two centerist parties. It appears that we have two centre left parties.

    The national “me too” campaign was alive and well. If national were going to be centre left and continue the policies of Helen and Labour then I would not be so concerned if they won. The only problem is that I do not trust them and I fear for my country if they win.

    Jenny McManus was right when she said that Key would say anything to win …

    Do you guys really want him to be the next PM?

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  67. tknorriss (327 comments) says:

    GTP said “Has The Standard or Chris Trotter declared it a win for Clark yet ?”

    Golly Gee they have. Who would have expected that???

    To be fair though, I think Clark came out swinging a lot more than Key. It seemed to me that Key was playing it safe knowing he is well in the lead and not wanting to make some monumental stuff-up at this stage. Clark had a lot less to lose and so was more willing to get stuck in. She is still a conceited, stuck-up bitch though.

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  68. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    5 more days of Helen, 5 more days of Helen, ding dong the witch is dead, 5 more days of Helen

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  69. Lindsay Addie (1,413 comments) says:

    “Do you guys really want him to be the next PM?”

    Definitely!!

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  70. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    No Mickey we are just voting for National because we thought it would be fun.

    You really are a complete twat aren’t you.

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  71. francis (712 comments) says:

    Armstrong gives it to Key, something of a surprise.

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  72. getstaffed (9,186 comments) says:

    Do you guys really want him to be the next PM?

    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    :
    and, um, Yes!

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  73. Inventory2 (10,270 comments) says:

    535 votes on the Herald poll now, and it’s 81%/19% in favour of Key.

    As for the debate itself, the margin wasn’t as convincing as the Herald poll suggests, but Clark looked absolutely shellshocked a couple of times, and very angry once. And you can see why they call Key the “Smiling Assassin”!

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  74. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    “Do you guys really want him to be the next PM?”

    1000 times more than Helen!

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  75. democracymum (648 comments) says:

    “Do you guys really want him to be the next PM?”

    Does Winston Peters want to campaign out of a helicopter?

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  76. Spam (588 comments) says:

    Do you guys really want him to be the next PM?

    Well, Rodders is unlikely. Key is next best, but otherwise I could possibly stomach Phil Goff.

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  77. dime (9,805 comments) says:

    i almost forgot about the anti-smacking lie helen told.

    why would she approach john when she could pass the bill without national???

    answer – she lied tonight!!

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  78. GTP (42 comments) says:

    “I could possibly stomach Phil Goff”

    Washed down with a nice red

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  79. democracymum (648 comments) says:

    dime

    They are lying so much now it’s a surprise when they actually tell the truth.

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  80. first time caller (384 comments) says:

    Audrey, Armstrong call it a win for Key.

    Good job.

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  81. dime (9,805 comments) says:

    spam – thats phil “lets make it legal for 12yr olds to have sex” goff

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  82. Ross Elliot (83 comments) says:

    Over at The Standard, the official newspaper of the Labour Party, after crediting Clark with the win, Steve Pierson notes that TV3 are running a text poll, dismissing the results in advance by contending:

    …what’s the bet the text poll favours the party whose voters are wealthy enough to:

    a) be at home on a weekday evening,

    b) own a cellphone,

    c) and be in a position to piss away money on a phone poll?

    I’d wager $20 the text poll will go to National regardless of the outcome of the debate.

    If those things make you wealthy then let that be an indicator of how far we’ve fallen.

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  83. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    I think the panel of so called experts don’t understand the game that National is playing. Why shouldn’t they walk to victory if they can?

    Hopefully with the nail in the coffin of Winnie First today most of his supporters will switch back to National and ACT.

    If I wasn’t a party member I’d almost consider voting ACT again.

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  84. WhichOnesPink (281 comments) says:

    Clear win for Key.

    Clark……..tired and exasperated ………personified

    …..eh!

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  85. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    Ross you should ask the Standard. What is the chances that Labour voters
    – have collected their benefit
    – stopped at the local to get a crate of lion red
    – sitting back watching movies on Sky because they don’t have to go to work tomorrow.

    Why don’t they have elections finishing at lunctime? half of Labours voters wouldn’t get out of bed in time.

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  86. Rich Prick (1,669 comments) says:

    I thought that it was shocking debate … there was none because Campbell wanted to talk too much himself.

    I thought I’d try the text voting thing (not something I’d usually do, but Plunket is a good cause). Voted “John” and got “Could not fetch content, sorry”. Sniffing a conspiracy I then voted “Helen” and got “Thank you for voting HELEN”. TV3 owe me 99 cents and interest accrues at the rate of Zimbabwe’s inflation compounded daily!

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  87. getstaffed (9,186 comments) says:

    SR – I expect to see only a little of Winston First’s vote dissipate. Many of his loyal voters don’t understand MMP and will simply support ‘their man’ so long as he’s breathing.

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  88. Colonel Masters (409 comments) says:

    Why don’t they have elections finishing at lunctime? half of Labours voters wouldn’t get out of bed in time.

    I’ve said it before: I’m hoping it’s shitty weather on the 8th.

    Does anybody know what the forecast is for South Auckland that day?

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  89. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    Only one person was worth watching tonight. She was powerful, authoritative, brutally concise, the only person with any clue about the true economic situation, and clearly deserves to be the next PM.

    Jenny McManus.

    [DPF: Jenny was wonderful]

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  90. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    John can you confirm she is a future ACT candidate? She sure sounded like one.

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  91. Lindsay Addie (1,413 comments) says:

    I written a thoughtful opinion of the debate called Helen and the two Johns battle it out over at my blog.

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  92. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    Colonel MetService only goes to Friday but is predicting rain for the end of the week. I think a big low is brewing in the Tasman so hopefully it is delayed by a day or two and shits itself on Saturday.

    The rumour is if it does bucket down on Saturday it is God crying tears of joy in regards to the end of Socialism in Godzone.

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  93. dime (9,805 comments) says:

    heh be in a position to pay 99cents?? yea big call.

    why do you have to be home on a weeknight? i was out and still watched :)

    infact, how can you afford to be out if you cant afford a cell phone and 99cents… which goes to freakin charity

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  94. DamnedAngry (231 comments) says:

    Did you notice how when there was a wide shot, you often saw Helen making hand motions to Campbell, indicating that he should CUT John off! She thought she was at the orchestra and she was the damned Director!

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  95. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    GTP You really mean “That’s stomach Phil Goff with some fava beans and a nice chianti.”?

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  96. Michaels (1,318 comments) says:

    Ross Elliot (9) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    November 3rd, 2008 at 9:38 pm

    Over at The Standard, the official newspaper of the Labour Party, after crediting Clark with the win, Steve Pierson notes that TV3 are running a text poll, dismissing the results in advance by contending:

    …what’s the bet the text poll favours the party whose voters are wealthy enough to:

    a) be at home on a weekday evening,

    b) own a cellphone,

    c) and be in a position to piss away money on a phone poll?

    I’d wager $20 the text poll will go to National regardless of the outcome of the debate.

    Obviously they have never been to South Auckland then……. You don’t see a person without their cell to their ear or texting.
    The truth is maybe they are uneducated and don’t give a fuck what is happening around their world, let alone neighbourhood.

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  97. reid (16,227 comments) says:

    “Why shouldn’t they walk to victory if they can?”

    SR, John ansell said it above. Hulun let it slip during the debate and she would know given she has access to data none of the rest of us do.

    We’re looking at the worst financial crisis in living memory, period.

    Solutions are required. Now. Fuck politics. That’s small beer. What did we get? Platitudes.

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  98. Jafa (38 comments) says:

    If anything shows Helen is not the man for the job it is her economic rescue plan. This consists of nothing more than building more houses and insulation retrofits for those who will vote for her. This has the effect of bailing out the sector that has caused the whole problem in the first place. A moral hazard if there ever was one.The Nats at least are aiming at the wider economy and not “their people”. I don’ think people should be hoodwinked by the ‘expert’ commentators that say the Nats and Labour are the same.

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  99. Southern Raider (1,800 comments) says:

    Problem we face is that in 90 National faced a bandrupt country and had to make some very hard calls to balance the books. The media never told the true story and Labour had used this ever since.

    We are facing a ground hog day on a much bigger scale and once again National will be slammed in years to come for being uncaring and evil even though they would have save NZ from a worse fate.

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  100. reid (16,227 comments) says:

    Key’s vision is not there either Jafa. Didn’t you notice?

    Neither party have any ideas, that’s plain and to some degree understandable whilst regretable. However to present voters with the bullshit we saw tonight as a “plan to deal with the crisis” is like Chamberlain returning from Munich. Insulting, ineffective and just plain wrong.

    SR, course it will, that’s been obvious for some time. Key question is, all thinking people would rather have the Nats than Liarbore, but WTF are they offering???

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  101. Don the Kiwi (1,686 comments) says:

    Had a much more enjoyable evening at a Candidate meeting with Simon Bridges.
    Much more fun, giving the lonely Winston First supported some muted shit. :mrgreen:

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  102. NX (504 comments) says:

    Lindsay Addie wrote:

    “Do you guys really want him to be the next PM?”

    Definitely!!

    Abso-bloody-lutely !!!!!!!!!!!

    In 2005 I convinced myself we were going to have a Prime Minister Brash, & I was somewhat destroyed when it didn’t happen (and especially so in light of how Labour wasted their third term – they spend the entire time featuring their own nest).

    Even though the polls are looking much better for the Nats going into this election, I’m trying distance myself emotionally from this election because I can’t take another loss. I love New Zealand and don’t really want to live overseas.

    So, I plan to have a fair bit of booze on hand this Saturday to limit the intensity.

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  103. Alan Wilkinson (1,868 comments) says:

    John Ansell, I disagree. You have to play the hand with the electorate you are given and that is what Key is doing.

    McManus was playing as though we have an economically literate electorate. We don’t. Much of what little we had, we have exported. She would lose the election and we would have another three years of nanny state decline.

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  104. reid (16,227 comments) says:

    Alan, that’s politics, but if Key and the Nats had a plan, he would have shown the glimmer of light to thinking people.

    He didn’t. Not once.

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  105. BlueDevil (92 comments) says:

    Rural weather forecast for Waikato (near enough to SA)
    Sat 8 Rain easing to showers. Southeasterlies developing
    94% chance of rain
    Northland is the same

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  106. JohnMacc (60 comments) says:

    Democracymum at 9:13 asked: “And who designed that set – are they colour blind?”
    Well I’d like to think it was a premeditated plot by some anti-labour designer who had a tip-off that the PM was going to wear that red jacket! What a hideous clash HC made with the green background screens (and I’m just focusing on the jacket!). She looked like some kind of spooky evil Xmas gnome from a sequel to the grinch.
    But I doubt anyone at TV3 is that cunning. It really was an ugly scene. Didn’t the PM’s handlers scope the set in advance? What’s the point of spending all that effort on airbrushing billboards if you’re going to let your leader go on primetime TV and stand in front of an X-files green wall in a bright red jacket that looks 4 sizes too small??

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  107. Jafa (38 comments) says:

    Reid said “Key’s vision is not there either Jafa. Didn’t you notice?”

    Hard to have a grand plan when Labour have spent all the money. Labour are guilty of economic treason by their deliberate sabotage of the economy handing the next government a poisoned chalice. Of this, I have no doubt, that Cullen is as pleased as punch. MMP will lead to pork barrel elections with the minor parties wagging the dog. Key is basically hamstrung between the economic realities and the political setup that is at hand. The 9 years that Labour have been in power will go down as a lost opportunity in terms of what could have been acheived. Helen made a point of saying in the debate tonight how proud she was proud of her acheivements in power. All the policies she listed are simply a redistribution of wealth while creating none. If this is her vision we desperately need change at the top in my opinion.

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  108. reid (16,227 comments) says:

    Well John if you put lipstick on a pig, it’s still a pig.

    Jafa, what you say is correct but not news. It’s been happening thoughout the nine long years. Haven’t in all this time the Nats been observing the international conditions? They have much more data and resources available than you and I. I saw it 3 years ago. So should they, Where’s their plan? I’m waiting, but not hoping.

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  109. Jafa (38 comments) says:

    Well Reid, the best ‘plan’ is actually to let market forces do their thing and get rid of all the unproductive real estate wankers that have been destroying our current account. Average Kiwi needs to learn to live within their means for a change and the more government intervention we have, the worse this recession will be. The best plan is to do nothing. This is why Clark resuscitating the real estate sector is such a bad idea. I think that people have failed to grasp this is a testament to the levels of economic illiteracy we have in the electorate. But of course Helen with her 5 houses has no conflict of interest, right?

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  110. reid (16,227 comments) says:

    Golly Jafa, you’ve cracked it. Just kidding. The issue is finance, not real estate. Yes the market issues surfaced in the overheated real estate market but that was fueled by what?

    If you attack the real estate you simply remove the tumour without removing the cancerous cells. The issue is how to achieve that without killing the patient, and since the patient is you and I and our jobs and the global and domestic economy, it’s a rather gnarly question without a pat answer.

    Let’s not divert into what the root causes of the crisis actually are, save that for a general debate. Suffice to say, IMO, neither candidate offered a solution tonight.

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  111. calendar girl (1,214 comments) says:

    At the end of the debate, before the camera cut away not to return, Key was clearly seen turning towards Clark in anticipation of shaking her hand or exchanging the usual courtesies. Clark, however, would have none of it – she was already turning away to her right, apparently determined to avoid him. As usual when it comes to personal character, actions speak more loudly than words.

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  112. rolla_fxgt (311 comments) says:

    Who was that McManus woman? She looked like they’d just pulled her in off the street, she seemed to be spouting off a lot of crap, & when the hell did denim jackets come back in? I thought she looked like Lyn of Tawa

    I think it was a tie, although over at the standard I see they’re putting it as a overwhelming win to Clark.

    Mr ‘I love the sound of my marvellous voice’ Campbell was useless, it didn’t flow at all. There’s a medium point between what he did & what sainsbury allowed, if they did that it would be great. But guess we can only live in hope.

    And agreed who dresses the set? Surely it could of been a standard set colour, or black, or grey, just something that wasn’t a blatant green party green

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  113. Lindsay Addie (1,413 comments) says:

    TV3’s text poll results:
    http://www.3news.co.nz/Text-poll-results-favour-John-Key/tabid/419/articleID/78308/Default.aspx?ArticleID=78308

    John Boy: 69.6%
    Helen: 30.4%

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  114. Nil Einne (20 comments) says:

    dime and GTP. If you’d bother to actually PAY ATTENTION to the issue, you’d know Helen was telling the truth and Key was bullshitting. Just check the Herald archives (who were hardly friendly to Labour on this issue, or in general in recent times). John Key approached Sue Bradford but FELL FLAT ON HIS FACE. After he’s failed, Helen Clark approached Sue Bradford and John Key and came up with something that actually worked for everyone. Depending on your POV, you’ll likely believe either that she realised the media (and National) had successfully hyped the issue and feed people bullshit about it so Helen Clark realised she had to calm it down OR that Helen Clark was worried like shit the issue was going to cost her the election so had to do something. Either way, anyone who BOTHERED to pay attention would know Helen Clark was telling the truth and Key was bullshitting. John Key did try to reach a compromise but he failed. It was Helen Clark who came up with the compromise that worked, not John Key.

    Again, if you don’t believe me, you should actually look into the issue yourself rather then listening to more John Key bullshit. You can start here if you want http://www.nzherald.co.nz/the-smacking-debate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501165&objectid=10436195 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/the-smacking-debate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501165&objectid=10436064 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10437332 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/the-smacking-debate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501165&objectid=10437376 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/the-smacking-debate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501165&objectid=10437513 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/the-smacking-debate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501165&objectid=10437373 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/the-smacking-debate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501165&objectid=10437474

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  115. Brian Smaller (4,007 comments) says:

    I listened on radio. Liked the bit where after Clark accused Key of selling state assets (like it was a crime), and Key pointed out that he had not been round a cabinet table selling state assets like Clark had when she was Deputy PM and sold Telecom. Of course, John Campbell ran interference for Clark all night in my opinion.

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  116. Jafa (38 comments) says:

    The point I am making is that Helens solution is worse than no plan and the best plan may in fact be no plan. Let market forces do their thing and flush out the rot. There is a difference between attacking real estate and pumping up the sector. Ultimately the electorate gets what they vote for. It would be nice to see a government that actually rewards productive investment behaviour rather than just what is politically popular. At least with Helen you always know she will go for what is popular rather than what is right. The debate was a flop. Neither candidate stood out and anyone looking for answers would have been left empty handed.Helen sounded like she was still doing the battles of the 80’s and 90’s. No forward vision plus daft ideas that will do more harm in the long run.

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  117. NX (504 comments) says:

    .. on a slightly different note I thought John Key’s suit look particularly smart.

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  118. slightlyrighty (2,471 comments) says:

    And the Standard calls it a win for Helen!

    Who would have thought????

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  119. reid (16,227 comments) says:

    Calendar girl: “Clark, however, would have none of it – she was already turning away to her right, apparently determined to avoid him.”

    A detailed accurate psychological profile of this person would make interesting reading. IMO it’s a shame she never had children or anything to mellow her with age, it would have made her very different. Instead she’s become one of the nastiest pieces of work I’ve seen in Parliament.

    Nil, do you have a stutter…

    Jafa, traditional policies focusing on increasing productivity and reducing bureaucracy are insufficient for these times. They won’t make any difference whatsoever. Munting on about capping civil servants and tax cuts does not address the root cause. With respect to to the issues facing us there were no repeat no solutions uttered in the debate. If you can’t see that then join the sheeple. With all due respect.

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  120. Rich Prick (1,669 comments) says:

    Nil, who cares. The Labour/Greens/Winston First axis delivered that intusion into every home in New Zealand. Nanny wants more if the axisis is re-installed, the Greens have 50 odd every day things they want to ban. Key was cut off by Campbell as he was making the point that the bastards elected to represent us actually seek to repress us. Yesterday they came for our light bulbs, and tried to come after our showers (and Helen told a big fat lie that Labour did not push this issue, the DBH were there untill it became a bridge too far), come Nov 9 if Labour and the Greens get together they will creep the 50 odd bans into law. And then we are indeed fucked.

    Remind these pricks on Saturday that they are our servants, we are not their play-things. DO NOT VOTE LABOUR, GREEN, WINSTON FIRST, JIM, or MAORI. Oh and that bloke with bad hair from …… whatever.

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  121. WraithX (283 comments) says:

    Colonel Masters at 9:44 asked about the weather on Saturday – the MetService extended forecast only goes to Friday – but it is rain on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday in Auckland. So fingers crossed! Let’s hope it is a downpour.

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  122. Lee (610 comments) says:

    Nil,

    if you want to talk about bullshitting, how about the fact that in a 2005 interview Clark said she would not ban spanking, then went ahead and did it anyway?

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  123. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Cock Nose Helen did not do enough to stem the tide!

    Not by a long way.

    Some artful toast to be delivered to her door on Sunday Morning!

    Happy Days!

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  124. Jafa (38 comments) says:

    “Jafa, traditional policies focusing on increasing productivity and reducing bureaucracy are insufficient for these times. They won’t make any difference whatsoever. Munting on about capping civil servants and tax cuts does not address the root cause.”

    Thats my point exactly. Market forces are bigger than anything the government can do (ultimately). People wanting a future government to save them from the inevitable are deluding themselves. What I am opposed to is an interfering govt keeping the very people in business who have been responsible for this mess. In NZ that means shonky finance companies and real estate spruikers. We need to use this as an opportunity to build a more productive country but those measures wont save us from the coming mess. For those who are interested in history (that would exclude the current finance minister), the current crisis bears the most resemblance to the recession of 1872. This was caused by easy credit and inflated real estate prices. The recession started when people started to default on mortgages – sound familiar. It took the US 4 years to recover and the UK 6 years from that recession. This is what is in store for us. Helen has shown us her vision is to create a sub-prime debt market in NZ, also known as shared equity, and to keep real estate prices over inflated through a mass building program. If this is a rescue plan then Winston is honest. That is why I think the debate tonight was a waste of time tonight if anyone wanted a ‘solution’.

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  125. Lee (610 comments) says:

    Ok, for the first and last time I checked out ‘The Standard’ blog to see their view of the debate. Now I know that they are a pro-Labour blog, so I expect them to be biased. Thats fine. I’m biased too, so is DPF. Bias is not the issue.

    But these guys are not just biased, they are seriously delusional, to a degree that I found quite scary. I watched the debate, and their description of it is frankly laughable. The best one could say is that HC held her own, and that it was 50/50. But they actually think HC won it by a clear mile. It gets worse. Helen Clark was “visionary”??? Key looked “petty” when he talked about nanny state??? Check it out, if you have the stomach.

    I have to laugh when I hear Clark describe Destiny Church as a “cult”. Because if you want to see a tightly controlled authoritarian organisation with delusional and mindless cult-like followers, its Labour.

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  126. NX (504 comments) says:

    I bet a few Labour ministers take a perverse pleasure in seeing John Key take on Helen Clark after sitting around the cabinet table with her for nine long years.

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  127. reid (16,227 comments) says:

    Jafa: “The recession started when people started to default on mortgages”

    Bzzzt.

    The recession started when credit was all of a sudden no longer available. When economies operate fiat currency and fractional reserve banking, this is inevitable. Normally this debt is held within manageable boundaries and is known as the boom and bust cycle but since the derivatives took off in the 80’s it’s become an accident waiting to happen.

    Remember the dot-bomb era? Profits from that bubble were transferred into real estate to create a bigger bubble. Now, those profits have been transferred into commodities which are being similarly manipulated.

    For example, oil. It’s often puzzled me why people don’t comment on the blindingly obvious fact that oil’s strategic supply security hasn’t changed one iota since its rise began. Yet the price has quadrupled. Oil prices are transparently manipulated (watch them shoot up after the US election, they’ve been brought down deliberately).

    Waiting in the wings of this credit crisis is default on credit card debt and hedge fund and pension fund exposure to derivatives. This facet will dwarf previous recessions and those who think a few $ in infrastructure and a cap on bureaucracy will fix it, are barking.

    As most people know, I’m conservative. So give us a plan Key, FFS. The saving grace for me is that I’d rather have someone who understand the market than someone who doesn’t, but at the end of the day, I still think I’m poorly served by both available choices.

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  128. Rod (180 comments) says:

    “At the end of the debate, before the camera cut away not to return, Key was clearly seen turning towards Clark in anticipation of shaking her hand or exchanging the usual courtesies. Clark, however, would have none of it – she was already turning away to her right, apparently determined to avoid him. As usual when it comes to personal character, actions speak more loudly than words.”

    Calendargirl is quite right to pick that up. I missed its significance as it happened, as no doubt many others did too, but my wife’s very sensitive human relationships antennae didn’t. It had a big impact on her views towards Helen, and may have swung a chunk of the female vote over to JK.

    Her body language said much about her character and how she thought the debate went. Compared to the generally polite US campaign debates we have seen, she brings a negative interpersonal atmosphere to these debates, which is not helped by her dishonest haranguing and sloganeering speaking style. Like the folk at the Standard, she seems to think victory goes to whoever speaks loudest, deepest and longest. It must be hard for JK and Sainsbury/Campbell to work with her. Others like Don Brash have not been able to stoop to her level of debate. Good on JK for how he has dealt with her so far without losing his cool.

    JK has another chance on TV1 tonight. Helen has no credibility about being visionary after her past failures such as the knowledge wave and top half of the OECD goals and the like. JK could benefit from putting up and repeating a more succinct and inspiring vision we can all identify with, and get excited about. He has the ideas, but needs to articulate them with greater inspiration. Doing that could still turn a nervously awaited close victory on Saturday into a rout. Tonight is really the last chance, with all the other news diversions from the US about to hit the headlines for the next few days.

    It’s about asserting leadership, and claiming the right to take us where we want to go. It’s about finding a few memorable and inspirational phrases that show him to be more of an inspirational leader than just a safe and competent manager.

    He really does have to be careful about getting diverted away from these vital few messages, like he was over the smacking business, which left me in despair for a few minutes. What was he thinking?

    Showing he has a clearer vision for the future might also avoid a last minute switch to support ACT with the party vote. A number of my circle are now talking this way to shore up their perception JK’s government will lack spine. I don’t think that is a correct assessment, but JK needs to be more assertive to lock in the votes of these people.

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  129. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,744 comments) says:

    A convincing win for John then. Nothing can stop Hels from losing this election now.

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  130. tknorriss (327 comments) says:

    I think that Clark was on a lose/lose with this debate the more I think about it.

    The harder she tried the more she comes across as the bossy, aggressive, interfering person that people are getting rapidly sick of. Even if she had technically won the debate, it was irrelevant to the impression she is confirming on people. I actually think Labour has made a strategic blunder in not getting rid of her before the election.

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  131. Bogusnews (473 comments) says:

    OECD rank 22,

    May you always be right!

    Five days to go!!!!!

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  132. goodgod (1,348 comments) says:

    As others have commented, John Needs to clarify his S59 amendment stance. He gets too caught up in details of chronology and loses the audience after 5-10 seconds. All he needs to say now is that his party knew they were going to lose the vote and instead of turning good parents over to the Greens whims, he offered an amendment that would protect parents, and then voted to carry it. Of course, that will not match his attitude that the new law is working regardless that 80% of the population don’t want it. That stance contradicts not wanting to tell people how to live and intrude on their personal lives. He accuses Helen of that and yet supports it over S59. He confuses things there. To run the simple explanation, he has to take the stance of repealing the Bradford amendments. He’s in two camps right now and that’s not working.

    Jenny McManus commented that he appeared wooden and didn’t talk visionary politics.

    He did have his “statesman” persona on, and it’s one that he hasn’t perfected yet, but given the attack mentality of the debate – and it wasn’t a debate at all – he had no choice but to have his guard up. And he needed to have his guard up. Myself and others have seen John Key in full flow eloquence and he will work that into his public performances over the next term, no doubt about it. Keep in mind he’s been thrown into the biggest battle of politics NZ has seen, against entrenched experienced opponents, and has only been at it 2 years and he is about to win against them. Wooden or not, something must be getting through to the public.

    Key attempted to sell his vision to the public with his DVD, but all the media were interested in then was the soundtrack similarities to pop songs. It’s a bit rich to wail about no party tricks now. But the vision is still there. He touched on his youth scheme, he touched on education, he touched on law and order, and he spoke about people aspiring to own companies and decide their own directions in life. Given the format, he could do little more than touch on them. John Campbell was pushing for something that kept changing, Helen was waiting for a gap to get a word in.

    Overall, he did well – better than his last debate. The drove home the points that had to be made when they should have been made. He totally destroyed Helen’s trust based campaign several times with simple current examples. John key will be the next Prime Minister of NZ.

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  133. senzafine (455 comments) says:

    To me, when speaking both generally and to john and john, helens tone was that of a frustrated caregiver who is speaking to a group of insolent children. And of course, this is not a new thing.

    When talking about character, any democratically elected PM should be able to feign an air of graciousness and maturity instead of a toxic mix of petulance and emotional imbalance.

    On that point alone JK wiped the floor with her. As always he was direct and neutral in his tone.

    During election year, the PM and opposition leaders really are the penultimate customer services people, and the only customer helen serves, is herself.

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  134. freethinker (688 comments) says:

    Clark refers to JK as Mr Key another sign of defensive fear. Another sign of the Feminazi in Clark

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  135. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    “John Ansell, I disagree. You have to play the hand with the electorate you are given and that is what Key is doing. McManus was playing as though we have an economically literate electorate. We don’t.”

    That’s because the gutless wonders we have posing as leaders think it’s politically risky to tell people the truth.

    What Jenny said was dead right: ‘We have a woman who likes to harangue people and a man who’s too timid to do anything.’

    If we had a no-bullshit McManus-type in charge, the electorate would not be economically illiterate for long.

    And another thing: true leaders don’t play the hand they’re given. They change the game.

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