Labour votes to repeal their own law

December 12th, 2008 at 11:13 pm by David Farrar

In 2007 changed the law to make it easier for people to get , even if they had previously offended while on .

pledged to repeal this, and did so a few minutes ago.

But here is the interesting thing – Labour voted to repeal their own law – it passed 106-7. Now that’s a flip-flop.

is very worried about Labour being seen as soft on . I suspect he will push Labour to vote for most of National’s changes to parole and bail.

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39 Responses to “Labour votes to repeal their own law”

  1. georgedarroch (316 comments) says:

    Labour are perpetually scared of being seen as “soft” on law and order. Phil Goff is a hardliner on law and order, and would have no problem with a law like this.

    The Greens on the other hand, aren’t scared of being accused of being wimps. They have strong positions about what will reduce crime which they’ll hold to against criticism from the ‘hang em high’ brigade led by the ACT/’Sensible Sentencing’ Trust/National Government.

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  2. Pascal (2,015 comments) says:

    Yes, the Greens. They supported the most criminal government New Zealand has ever seen for 9 long years. Sorry George, but the Greens and their supporters have nothing. Reduce crime? They contributed to it. And now Labour is flip flopping.

    Fuck, you have to laugh at the Left. They’re a lost cause.

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  3. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “They have strong positions about what will reduce crime”

    Once again the so called “Green Party” wants to impose the usual costly unworkable extreme left ideas in policy areas that, if it were a true environmentally focused party, should be none of its damn business. Just the same old Watermelon bullshit.

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  4. Christopher (425 comments) says:

    ’Sensible Sentencing’ Trust

    Don’t you fucking dare use quote marks, or anything else for that matter, to imply that the SST is anything but the best thing to ever happen to this country, you arrogant swine.

    I really fucking detest little wankers like you who have absolutely no idea about crime. Wait til one of your loved ones is murdered, then see how you feel about it, you socialist prick.

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  5. georgedarroch (316 comments) says:

    I’ll “fucking dare” use quote marks when referring to the “Sensible” Sentencing Trust.

    I have very strong ideas about crime – like making criminals take responsibility for their crimes. I’ve seen people who realise what they’ve done. They’re suffering, in a way that has little to do with how long their sentence is. They’re broken men. The current system does nothing of the sort. It isn’t designed to, and nothing, absolutely nothing, I’ve heard from National, ACT or Labour will do anything to address this.

    While this is the case putting people behind bars for a few years longer isn’t going to give them remorse, change their ways, or even punish a lot of them. A very large number of violent criminals, and career criminals don’t see prison as much of a hardship, just something to wait out. It socialises them with hundreds of other violent individuals for years. For someone on their first offense, it immerses them in a criminal world. Longer sentences just put them in there for longer.

    The answer is to have a system that actually confronts people with their actions, and makes them take responsibility. There are places where this is being done, and they have much much lower reoffending rates than places like California. Why? Because these people know what they’ve done, and it haunts them. This doesn’t mean they go to prison on Monday and are released by Friday – good things take time – but it does mean abandoning a soundbite policy. David Garrett would have us emulate places where reoffending rates for violent crime are particularly high, despite long sentences. This is truly evidence that long sentences aren’t much of a punishment, and don’t make us safer. We won’t be safer (because there is no evidence that long sentences reduce crime rates in the long term) so it won’t reduce the number of victims at all.

    I want criminals to feel real pain. And there is no pain as great as that of a murderer who truly knows what he’s done.

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  6. kiwi in america (2,431 comments) says:

    george
    Managing crime in modern democratic societies (where the politicians who make laws that can and do affect crime rates can lose their jobs over the issue of rising cime) is about delivering the best public safety outcomes for the tax payers dollars.

    You refer to some nirvana where violent criminals have access to a sufficient number of trained cutting edge criminal psycologists who have the time to work with these people long enough to make a discernable impact on their likelihood to re-offend. Such a place does not exist because the cost of maintaining this infrastructure of treatment is prohibitive and the global education system cannot produce enough qualified experts to do this work in even just the wealthier first world juristictions.

    Some governments have learned that what matters is that the most people are kept the safest from the consequences of violent crime – ie fewer real people being mugged, robbed, attacked, raped and murdered. The easiest and cheapest way to do this is to toughen the laws, lengthen the sentances, raise minimum parole periods and build more prisons. The are many states in the US that have made huge inroads into the levels of violent crime on the backs of that formula.

    Does it deal to the root cause of the issues of the violent criminals – usually not. But the priority of politicians in democracies is to keep their constituents happy and safe and so voters are much happier if real and reported crimes rates are demonstrably lowered. Now academics and liberals and the Howard League of Penal Reform can bleat on, as you have george, about recidivism and accountability and restorative justice all they want. They have a point – I have seen the positive results of restorative justice – it does work. I’ve seen the results with men who sexually offend and who have been through the Kia Marama programme at the Rolleston Prison sex offenders unit. But guess what – to set up enough Kia Maramas (and their violent crime equivalent) and a fully functioning restorative justice system with the army of parole and probation staff needed to make it work – an economy the size of NZ just can’t sustain the billions needed to fund these programmes fully nor can they pay enough to attract the qualified professionals from overses to bolster the ranks of the locally trained psycologist experts needed to run your nirvana effectively.

    You can pan the incarceration model all you want but in an imperfect society with limited Corrections budgets the world over there are limits to what can be done to protect the most people from the most criminals and sadly locking them away for longer sentences is tried and proven to be one affordable technique that works. Even Sweden, long cited by the Greens and others crime wets, cannot afford to impose the massive tax burden on its citizens needed to maintain its criminal rehab system which has probably got as close to this magic world you hanker after. Violent crime is rising even there on the backs of new migrants and the inability of the system to rehabilitate nearly enough criminals to actually reduce the crime rate.

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  7. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,810 comments) says:

    Labour will be “running scared” for a long time to come.

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  8. expat (4,048 comments) says:

    Labour are fucked and bereft of ideas, as has been evident for the past 5 years (besides cheating and lying to stay in power, they’re good at that).

    Labour will roll over on anything they think will increase their numbers in the polls.

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  9. goodgod (1,363 comments) says:

    What? No squeals from the leftist pigs over the urgency?

    Fuckin’ hypocrites the lot.

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  10. WebWrat (516 comments) says:

    EVERYONE knows you shouldn’t rape, murder or steal.

    To do any of these things is a matter of choice.

    Therefore if you make this choice you should be locked away, never to see the light of day again.

    No more repeat offenses.

    Watch the crime rate drop.

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  11. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Why bother with the courts, Garth McVictim thinks that if your garage door is tagged then it’s okay to chase a fifteen year old 300 metres down the road and stab them to death.
    The Sensible Sentencing Trust says it wanted to see the killer of a teenage tagger set free, because he was forced to take the law into his own hands.

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  12. Gulag Archipelago (162 comments) says:

    Inevitably a tagger would have been killed. They are are annoying and provocative vandals who enrage the average law abiding citizen. Two kids a week are killed by accidents, probably 1000 a week take dangerous risks so they are bound to get killed. Extreme statement “Why bother with the courts”.

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  13. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    you beat me to it, cha.

    Garth McVicar is a joke and there’s nothing Sensible about his Sentencing Trust .

    And Christopher, get over yourself. This is a bklog, a form of communication without the visual cues of direct contact, George is quite within his rights to use quote makrs or anything else to show his contempt for the contemptuous.

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  14. Inventory2 (10,086 comments) says:

    georgedarroch said “I want criminals to feel real pain. And there is no pain as great as that of a murderer who truly knows what he’s done.”

    I’d agree with you on that george – but how does the system work when the offender is incapable of feeling anything?

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2008/12/throw-away-key.html

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  15. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    But here is the interesting thing – Labour voted to repeal their own law – it passed 106-7. Now that’s a flip-flop.

    Come on Farrar, are you that stupid?

    When someone shows me I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?

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  16. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    Inventory2 (2351) Vote: 0 0 Says:

    December 13th, 2008 at 8:34 am
    georgedarroch said “I want criminals to feel real pain. And there is no pain as great as that of a murderer who truly knows what he’s done.”

    I’d agree with you on that george – but how does the system work when the offender is incapable of feeling anything?

    Your answer is in your linked article. Can you not see the difference between a Bruce Emery, who killed and is remorseful, and a Liam Read who isn’t? The sentencing will, no doubt, reflect this. Reid as PD with a 26 year non parole minimum, Emery will probably get around 2 years. What Emery needs is counselling to help him reintegrate and anger management to prevent him being so stupid next time.

    If you cannot see the difference, pack up your keyboard and send your computer back.

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  17. Ross Miller (1,659 comments) says:

    I watched the debate in Parliament. Labour speaker after Labour speaker railed against the bill …. and when push came to shove they voted for it. What an exercise in puffery. They didn’t even possess the courage of their convictions to vote against it. Rant and Cant, Piss and Wind. Goof had the chance to show leadership; for Labour to put their money where their mouths were, and he blew it big time.

    Methinks the grindstone is already turning on those knives.

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  18. expat (4,048 comments) says:

    Labour dont have the numbers to roll National on anything and dont want to be exposed as half arse losers.

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  19. dave strings (608 comments) says:

    BillyBorker

    It’s clear you aren’t Helen in disguise! Didn’t you know, the Helen-led government NEVER made a mistake.

    As for ‘the poor criminal’, I actually have some sympathy with the sentiment being expressed regarding criminals who truly regret what they have done. There is a judgement in French Law that allow for a ‘crime of passion’ to have been committed. I don’t know the ins and outs of it, but it recognizes that passion can make a normally law abiding person commit a crime that is totally out of character – sentencing takes into account that judgement. However, there are people who are professional criminals and/or professional thugs. I don’t see how spending a fortune on them with a psychiatrist is going to change them. Make prison the punishment that is the price of their trade and make it so bad for the young that they NEVER want to go back again.

    For the professional criminal, a holiday in prison is just part of the job, we have to make it the BAD part.

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  20. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    Well no dave, I didn’tknow that. Maybe becaise I wasn’t a aprt of that government, maybe because I am not a Labour voter.

    As to crimes of passion, well we do have the distinction between murder and manslaughter, for example. That is also, in part, why there is graduated sentencing, something the SST’s flag wavers don’t get.

    Trouble is, no law is perfect, nor is any legal system, and we need to keep trying to get the balance right. An example of bad law fits with your crime of passion thesis, where “battered woman syndrome” became accepted as a defence to what is, in fact, a premeditated murder.

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  21. dave strings (608 comments) says:

    The puffery of debate in the Chamber is there to make politicians and the press gallery feel good about their jobs. It no longer changes anything, only when MPs were able to vote their personal view was there a chance that a government bill would be defeated. In the case of a minority government, like we have today, the truth is that ANY defeat can lead to the PM calling a snap election, irrespective of Confidence & Supply agreements. I really don’t think the country would take kindly to National’s bills being turned back in their first half-parliament, so no bill is really going to face the axe. As we saw many times under the last government, it is quite simple to have a select committee recommend changes and for a bill to be passed in its original form nevertheless.

    The question then becomes, do we need t go through the farce of debate in the house, or should we leave it to one day a week for private members bills and questions?

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  22. Inventory2 (10,086 comments) says:

    Of course there’s a quantum leap between Emery and Reid billy – so how do we identify the Reids, the Graeme Burtons, the Taffy Hotenes and the William Bells and make sure that they are never given the opportunity to reoffend?

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  23. Pascal (2,015 comments) says:

    billyborker:

    If you cannot see the difference, pack up your keyboard and send your computer back.

    And how many times has the parole board, people who work with criminals all the time, gotten it wrong? How many criminals have been released onto the streets and reoffended? How many people have died at the hands of leftist ideology in New Zealand?

    I would rather have a fixed and severe penalty known and clear up front. Look at areas where crime is high, forget the PC rubbish and become honest about where it is happening and target it. Prevent the crime, rather than trying to treat it afterwards.

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  24. PhilBest (5,117 comments) says:

    Elephant in the room for the “be nice to crims” brigade: how many crimes, and of what nature, had a criminal already committed before he or she murdered, or raped, or did something to finally make society wake up and start having a debate what should happen?

    What is more, who commits all the “unsolved” crimes? Some amazing bunch of people who never ever get detected? Nah. It’s the guys we do know about already – on average, every crim has actually done 3 to ten times as much as they ever get charged for. Not that we take this into account in passing sentance, but if we just did lock them away sooner and for longer, which is fair enough anyway after 3 serious offences, not 12 or 20 or 60; crime would drop like a stone and innocent people would be safe again.

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  25. PhilBest (5,117 comments) says:

    The other aspect to this is “The Long March Through The Institutions”.

    The knowing, active agents of the Left actually know that what they have done to society over the last few decades was meant to increase social disorder and crime. They use language and plausible theories to claim good intentions, the elimination of inequality and discrimination and stigma and bigotry, and “liberation” and “tolerance” and all the rest of it; a lot of people are sucked in by this and actually mean well, but what we all need to be clear about is that all the popular (to the stupid ’60′s generation) underlying theory that all this was based on, was designed by people like Marcuse and Foucault and Gramsci and Derrida; who just happened to be radical Marxists who regretted that Westerners had too much morals and scruples to go in for bloody revolution and murder, hence they would have to go about their evil some other way.

    I didn’t make up the term “The Long March Through The Institutions”; these foul fiends coined the term themselves.

    So indeed, if Phil Goof and some others among the socialists are decent humans after all, they will need to repudiate a lot more yet before they can be trusted with the reins of society; and dare I say it, the nice Nats need to get a bit more real yet about the evil we are confronted with. I actually first became aware of “the Long March” because Aussie PM John Howard gave a speech on it, and I am more inclined to think that he and a handfull of others were the most awake conservative politicians in the world, not daft fringe conspiracy theorists, which is of course what the agents of “the Long March” would like us to think of persons who are awake to it.

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  26. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “ there is no pain as great as that of a murderer who truly knows what he’s done.”

    Just the kind of same old same old worthless psycho babble you get from the liberals whose narcissistic policies have made NZ one of the most crime ridden countries in the developed world.

    Now that we have a change of government, the focus needs to move off the offender and on to the right of every law abiding NZer to live in a crime free society. Meaning the criminals that presently proliferate should be locked away where they can do no harm, with the impetus for their rehabilitation provided by means of the idea that if you choose crime as a career you can expect to be locked up for a quarter to a third of your life or longer.

    It makes me sick they way Liberals arrogantly presume themselves as able to offer solutions to NZ’s intolerable level of offending (violence, rape theft etc) when their long term ideological attacks on traditional morality are the root cause of the problem.

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  27. Bok (740 comments) says:

    “ there is no pain as great as that of a murderer who truly knows what he’s done.”

    My heart bleeds for the “poor, remorseful murderer” My brother was beaten to death because some dick on parole wanted his cell phone.
    He is now remorseful… my brother is still dead. His wife is still a widdow, his daughter now a lost cause because of drugs (was a great kid when my brother was around) A loving happy family is now a scattering of individuals who have lost their cohesive love through grief.

    You want to feel sorry for some-one?

    Your deep felt beliefs in justice and rehabilitation is responsible time and time again for fuckwits like these to murder people like my brother.

    For people like Burton and Reid to get out and murder rape and maim.

    Your knowledge is hypothetical, your science based in feel good bullshit, but the results ..wow they are spectacular in their devastation.

    So durroch and co, I piss on your ideas and will do so until you can prove to me how just one death like my brother is justified, is acceptable.

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  28. BR (79 comments) says:

    “I want criminals to feel real pain. And there is no pain as great as that of a murderer who truly knows what he’s done.”

    What utter damn nonsense. The above is an example of the worst kind of bullshit spouted by extreme leftists like the greens who largely rely on the criminal underclasses for support.

    Graham Burton, William Bell, Liam Reid…… The list goes on. These people should be hanged. If you want an example of a sensible way to reduce crime, you need look no further than the Singaporean crime statistics and the methods used in that country.

    Bill.

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  29. Christopher (425 comments) says:

    My brother was beaten to death because some dick on parole wanted his cell phone.

    Bok, I’m so terribly sorry for your loss. I have some understanding of your pain, and I definitely understand your anger.

    If you want an example of a sensible way to reduce crime, you need look no further than the Singaporean crime statistics and the methods used in that country.

    Exactly.

    Fuck these socialist pricks with their lies and bullshit. I’m an educated man, and I know more about criminal justice than your average punter, and I know two things:

    1. Harsh treatment of criminals works
    2. Harsh treatment of criminals is just

    Darroch, Borker & Co, one day, the way things are going, you too will end up a victim, or a relative or friend of yours will. Then you’ll understand that this isn’t some academic exercise.

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  30. Ross Miller (1,659 comments) says:

    I do remember well the time I had to accompany one of my soldiers to a Singaporean Court where he was to be tried and sentenced for a relatively minor infringement. I handed him over to a court official and he disappeared into the ‘system’. I went to the courtroom. THere was a sort of holding pen on the side of the courtroom into which those waiting to be called were herded. One of those had the temerity to lean on a ballastrade only to be wacked on the arm by a gaoler and told to stand up straight. He did. My man was called, he stood in front of the Judge who asked him if he disagreed with the Summary of Evidence. He didn’t. He asked him if he had anything to say. I had primed the soldier to say he was very sorry. The Judge said it was easy to say sorry after the event and fined him S$1,000.

    We left the courtroom thru a side door and in the corridor there was a cashiers cage and two doors. Cash only (no cheques) and they tripped the button which unlocked the door leading out into the street. No cash and you went thru the other door direct into a prison van. Simple, quick and neat.

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  31. Frank (320 comments) says:

    Phil Goff in Parliament is long and loud on rhetoric, but extremely short on facts. So far in the debate he is trying to defend the indefensible and appears, along with his colleagues, unable or unwilling to take aboard the facts presented to them. The Greens are coming from a different planet.

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  32. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:


    Christopher (114) Vote: 4 2 Says:

    December 13th, 2008 at 11:34 am

    1. Harsh treatment of criminals works
    2. Harsh treatment of criminals is just

    Darroch, Borker & Co, one day, the way things are going, you too will end up a victim, or a relative or friend of yours will. Then you’ll understand that this isn’t some academic exercise.

    Then show me the crime free land that has harsh punishments. Crime exists under all regimes, no matter how harsh the penalties. parts of the ME chop off a thief’s hand; people still steal. Many nations execute murderers, yet they still have more murderers to execute. Why is this?

    And Christopher – I have been the victim of a random street assault. My elderly mother was punched in the street and the punch triggered a heart attack. I have property tagged, and I have confronted the taggers, but maybe I went wrong because I didn’t take a knife, just a no nonesense attitude with a pre arranged escape should things get nasty.

    So fuck off and don’t tell me what i do or don’t understand.

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  33. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    ” parts of the ME chop off a thief’s hand; people still steal.”

    Check out these stats crim enabler, and see if they tell you anything.

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita

    Maybe you’d have the intelligence to ask yourself why countries like NZ, Finland, Denmark, UK, US, Netherlands, Germany, Canada, Norway and France still feature so largely in the negatives. They all have relatively highly sophisticated law enforcement systems. What is the shared weakness? I’ll tell you. Too many know nothing narcissistic pseudo liberals like you having far too damn much to say on crime issues.

    Proved by rates ranging from 106/1000 to 62/1000 in the countries listed above, while Qatar, where they do chop your hand off and liberals like you are shunned, having a rate of only 7/1000.

    Go away. Victims of crime are sick of your self serving narcissistic crap and your undermining of our justice system and our right to walk the streets in safety.

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  34. PhilBest (5,117 comments) says:

    Well said, Redbaiter, and you will agree that the “Long March Through The Institutions” narcissists have rotted out more than just our criminal justice system. The root of our problem is the trashing of traditional moral standards, so that kids are no longer properly brought up by a mum and dad and taught to respect authority and work and be thrifty and take responsibility for themselves and their own family one day. Worse, they are pumped full of relativistic rot at our schools (and universities if they go there) along with all kinds of “blame” theories so that the real causes of these problems we are talking about are never identified. It is always the fault of capitalism, exploitation, oppression, bigotry, imperialism, white males, etc etc etc.

    All this is understood by the knowing agents of the Left, to be ratcheting us ever closer to their Police State where everyone is equal but everyone is no longer free. The dupes of the Left, as opposed to the knowing agents, think we are heading towards some sort of Promised Land – just like Lenin said. The FOOLS.

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  35. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    Red, you did read this bit, didn’t you?

    DEFINITION: Note: Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence.

    You did read it?
    It’s in the small print, roughly the same size as the thinking bit of your brain.

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  36. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “roughly the same size as the thinking bit of your brain”

    Which regardless of size, must work better than yours given I know the difference between “often” and “always”. What evidence do you have that reporting is inaccurate in Qatar, and what degree of inaccuracy would you apply? Ten fold??? Crim loving lamer.

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  37. oranjemakker (60 comments) says:

    Billy the Big Dork

    As redbaiter points out, are you seriously trying to imply that the tenfold difference is a reproting issue? like all lefites, you will lie and distort facts to make your indefensible arguments. Just like Gordon Brown:

    ‘Selective’ knife figures blasted

    Downing Street has been rebuked for manipulating knife crime statistics for political ends.

    Sir Michael Scholar, head of the UK Statistics Authority, said officials pleaded with No 10 not to release “unchecked” and “selective” numbers.
    (see full link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7780057.stm )

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  38. thedavincimode (6,514 comments) says:

    George, congrats on having strong ideas about crime. Oustanding. And its great that you’ve seen people who realise what they have done. Was that during the trial; with the photos and the medical evidence, and the victims relatives? Or seeing the oldies that were fleeced out of their life savings without any chance of reparation? Gosh, why didn’t they say so, apologise and then everyone could have just moved on?

    No one has any problem with you making these peole feel worse than they otherwise would. If your system can do that then jolly good. If your system can make Liam Reid regret what he did or confront him with the reality of his last two crimes, or, gee whiz, his previous 61 crimes, then go you good thing. I’m sure he will have regrets; now, because he got caught and in 26 years years time when they don’t parole him.

    In the meantime, more than half of the voters just want these creeps locked up and out of the way and they are prepared to pay for it. And oh gee whiz, the families and friends of the victims want justice. For justice read an ackowledgement by society that they and their loved one has been wronged, comfort that the offender won’t do this again any time soon, and , goodness, can we really say it – revenge? All very biblical but that’s the way its been for thousands of years. You mightn’t agree but I’m sure as hell not going to lecture Emma Agnew’s family about why they shouldn’t have whatever they perceive as justice and why, deep down, Liam Reid is really just a top bloke trying to get out.

    You are implicitly making the same error that you accuse others of; namely that one size fits all. Well it doesn’t. You can’t actually bring yourself to acknowledge that some people are in fact beyond redemption and will never change.

    If you want to go and see Emma Agnew’s family, or the gazillion other families bereaved in this way in recent times, to give them your sanctimonious little lecture about redemption and rehabilitation, then why don’t you just wait a while for the pain to subside so that you don’t make a complete cunt of yourself and more importantly, make them feel worse than they already do.

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  39. thedavincimode (6,514 comments) says:

    Pascal says:

    “And how many times has the parole board, people who work with criminals all the time, gotten it wrong? How many criminals have been released onto the streets and reoffended? How many people have died at the hands of leftist ideology in New Zealand?”

    As it happens Pascal, I’ve been keeping a bit of a record and I put that number somewhere in the region of a gazillion times.

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