General Debate 25 January 2009

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Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left

Sorry for the lame link but Im hungover from cup day
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4827855a1860.html
Just how much make-up and creative lighting will be required to make Sarah Jessica Parker bearable to look at in 2010???
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January 25, 2009 8:37am
philu

some of you may be amused by this..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/why-real-men-dont-like-spas/

(‘mad muzza’ excepted..of course..!..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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January 25, 2009 8:55am
philu

and a heads-up for bloggers/news-aggregators..

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/lawsuit-to-determine-fair-use-for-blog-links-headlines/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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January 25, 2009 8:57am
goodgod

When is someone who knows how to use weapons going to train the police to use firearms? Is there no one from the army available? Any of our returned frontline soldiers? Anyone who knows how to aim would suffice. Uncontrolled Fire-fights in urban areas are not acceptable. I found the statement yesterday that the police “didn’t know” who fired the fatal shot a complete disgrace. It was nothing but a pathetic media stall. Do they usually fire M4’s blindly from the hip? I look forward to the whitewash, and another death in similar circumstances within a few years.
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January 25, 2009 9:04am
greenfly

Our society feels less secure under National than it did under Labour. I’d been led to believe we’d be safer. Have rates of offending begun to go down yet? When can we expect National to make the change to a safer society? They certainly made a great deal of it when they were talking us in to voting for them. Perhaps the threat of a tougher government hasn’t filtered down to the criminals yet.
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January 25, 2009 9:22am
big bruv

Our world feels less secure under Obama than it did under Bush. I’d been led to believe we’d be safer. Have rates of terrorism begun to go down yet? When can we expect Obama to make the change to a safer world? He certainly made a great deal of it when he was talking them in to voting for him. Perhaps the threat of a tougher government hasn’t filtered down to the terrorists yet.
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January 25, 2009 9:25am
greenfly

You are right big bro! Pretenders all!
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January 25, 2009 9:26am
Patrick Starr

“Our society feels less secure under National than it did under Labour”

You hit the nail on the head there greenfly

‘Your’ society should!
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January 25, 2009 9:28am
big bruv

Greenfly

How come the financial crisis has not ended yet?, we were told that Hussein Messiah Obama was going to “change” things if you remember.
How come millions of people still live in poverty?
How comes millions of people still do not have health care?
How come millions of people still do not have jobs?
How come the troops are still in Iraq?
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January 25, 2009 9:31am
greenfly

big bro – It puzzles me too! The whole ‘change’ thing seems to be a crock, eh!
Patrick Starr – any idea which ‘society’ the now dead courier driver belongs to? Hope he didn’t vote National and was filled with expectation for some Big Bruv style ‘change’.
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January 25, 2009 9:36am
Patrick Starr

Greenfly
It’s a shame you want to try and score political points out of an innocent mans tragic death, but as you have- do you have any idea which political party was in government and responsible for the training of these police involved?, Like they didnt just start the job 2 months ago.
any idea which political party attempted to block non lethal force as an alternative?
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January 25, 2009 9:50am
joeAverage

greenfly(THINK) PHISSSTTTTTTT greenfly flyspray go away stop causing damage to the world
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January 25, 2009 9:51am
greenfly

Patrick Starr – I learned to do that here! Has that style of constant blame and unreasonable criticism of the ruling party and its individual ministers stopped now? If only someone had told me!
JoeAverage – that kind of thinking (must destroy annoying pests) has caused huge damage to the world. Each pest plays its part in the natural order. Killing them all just creates a greater problem – besides, I’m largely immune.
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January 25, 2009 9:58am
TimG_Oz

John Minto, Keith Locke and Bomber could all learn a thing or two…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4828899a11.html

You don’t get peace by blindly supporting one side and promoting hate against the other. You get it from dialog and tolerance.

A much nicer story than the cafe idiots in Kaikoura or Invercargill.
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January 25, 2009 10:02am
Ross Miller

Goodgod … your tirade is pathetic as is your knowledge which is probably only matched by your hyperbole in describing what happended on Friday as an “uncontrolled fire fight”.

Point 1. The Police have always made use of the military to help train their armed offender squads. A colleague of mine and distinguished ex SAS member has been doing that for years in Whangarei. He is not alone.

Point 2. It will take police forensics a couple of days to confirm who fired the fatal shot. As I understand it there were two officers involved.

Point 3. To even suggest the officers involved may have fired their Bushmasters from the hip tells me you have been watching too many Audie Murphy movies.

I repeat the comment I made earlier. When someone presents a weapon you can assume they mean to use it and you are entitled to respond accordingly in line with SOPs. It is a situation fraught with danger and sometimes innocent people get hurt … cetainly not deliberately but that’s the reality. And unless you have been in that situation can I suggest you belt up. Both the family and the officers have a lot of grieving to do and your rant does nothing to move the process forward.

I support the police (even though I have huge issues with the police hierachy). I will await the results of the investigation with interest. Till then I suggest you stop taking potshots from the safety of your home.
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January 25, 2009 10:10am
reid

When is someone who knows how to use weapons going to train the police to use firearms?

No doubt what happened will become clearer after the PCA report is released but at this point we don’t know whether it was a case of poor aiming or a case of mistaken identity. It could be either.
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January 25, 2009 10:46am
reid

You don’t get peace by blindly supporting one side and promoting hate against the other. You get it from dialog and tolerance.

Tell that to the Israelis, Tim.
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January 25, 2009 10:49am
andrei

Did anybody actually listen to what Auckland Assistant Commissioner Steven Shortland said in his news conference yesterday?

He said that five rounds were fired by the AOS, four from one rife and one from a second.

He also said that the fatal shot was fired from the one that fired four rounds.

I put it to you that the police already know who fired the fatal shot and that it was a “stray”.
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January 25, 2009 10:54am
expat

I think of the family, and those who have to deal with the loss.
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January 25, 2009 10:59am
transmogrifier

As much as I think National and Labor are merely differing shades of the same colour, no matter how hard the rabid little hardcore bloggers around try to convince us otherwise, it’s hardly fair to expect a sea change in crime rates after, what, three months? I say, wait until the next election campaign swings into typical offend-noone rhetoric mode and then take a look at society and make your decision then.
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January 25, 2009 11:04am
Redbaiter

For the Obama/ terrorist supporters-

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hZfIcWnHqBz4kQR90lC_pXaHeW4Q

Putting citizens lives at risk for political advantage in the form of votes from morons. As always.
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January 25, 2009 11:10am
goodgod

Ross, first, go fuck yourself you pathetic whiney fuck. Happy now? Good.

Police knew they had shot the man as soon as the bullet hit unless they were firing blindly. With a rifle like the M4 you can hold it at the hip and pull the trigger – not accurate. Or you can use the sight and pull the trigger – reasonably accurate. Unless you close your eyes, you’ll see the bullet hit. Yet here you are telling me they were also firing blindly through vehicles. Gee, ain’t that saying something. The Police had no purpose in releasing a statement saying they “didn’t know” unless they already knew. Otherwise they would not find the man down until the scene was cleared. It was a deliberate communications delay fuck up. The picture of the two vehicles excludes any sort of crossfire activity.
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January 25, 2009 11:11am
TimG_Oz

“Tell that to the Israelis, Tim.”

You ever been there, Reid? You’d be amazed how well the general population from each side gets on….

Why do you think that Hamas’ suicide bombing campaign hit pubs like “Mike’s place” where Arabs and Israelis hung out together….
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January 25, 2009 11:16am
transmogrifier

Redbaiter – the article makes clear that those guys were released 2007, no? Make any difference to your amusing compulsion to conflate one group with another to serve your narrow field of view?

And what’s your point anyway? That everyone released from jail will go back and reoffend, so better to hold everyone in for eternity? If so, I predict that by 2050, 54% of the New Zealand workforce will be prison guards.
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January 25, 2009 11:16am
mattyroo

Big Bruv, Not sure when the Obamessiah is going to get to the things on your list, he has so many other things to do as well! Everyone in the world thinks he is going to fix their own little crisis.

I went to the DMZ yesterday, between the two Koreas, and the South firmly believe he will be able to reunite them……

The bloke is going to be running round like a blue assed fly trying to cure the worlds ills….. Oh that’s right, thats how the left operate anyway, busily creating the impression they are busy, without actually doing anything.
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January 25, 2009 11:34am
reid

Tim, it’s merely an observation that the Israelis have been doing exactly what you recommend against in Gaza ever since Hamas was elected.

Firstly they refused to engage in any serious dialogue whatsoever with Hamas.

Secondly they took gradual progressive steps ending finally in invasion, to turn the Gazan people against Hamas.

Thirdly they continued their dialogue with Hamas’ enemy, Fatah, which was a divide and rule strategy.

All of which is exactly what your comment suggests would be a bad thing to do if you are serious about wanting peace.

It’s patently obvious if you look at it objectively that this is exactly what they did and it’s quite irrelevant to argue as some do that this is justified because, in their view, Hamas is an unrepentant unchangeable bunch of fanatical murderous thugs bent on Israel’s destruction because the actual point is, Israel has never ever ever seriously tried to engage with them since day one of their elevation to office as the democratically elected representatives of the Gazan people. Divide and rule – simple.
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January 25, 2009 11:36am
side show bob

This shooting is a very sad event for all concerned. What I will find interesting will be the decision of any court of inquiry or any subsequent sentences handed down. What would the actions of a court be if a private citizen had shoot the wrong person while trying to defend themselves let alone just defending yourself. Given the tough massage the police handout “always identify you target” and numerous hunting “accidents” throughout New Zealand any court decision will be viewed with great interest. There are a lot of unanswered questions but the answers to these questions will be nothing compared to any actions or non actions handed out by courts.
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January 25, 2009 11:42am
Redbaiter

So transmogrifier, you agree its a good idea of Obama’s to release all remaining 245 terrorists from Guantanamo?
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January 25, 2009 11:54am
TimG_Oz

Reid,

Firstly you ignored my point, which is that for peace you need to change the hearts and attitudes of people at ground level. Perhaps you could enlighten me about what is happening in Palestinian and Israeli schools? I recommend an excellent documentary “Judah and Mohammed”.

It is a misconception that Israel and Hamas don’t negotiate. They do – in secret, via third parties. Hamas as well can hardly negotiate with Israel in public – an act which they publicly call an act of treason against Palestine.

Whilst there were a few interviews with Hamas leaders – suggesting that they recognised Israel’s right to exist and remain “Jewish” in culture, they appear to be token words, whilst the actions are still of violence and destruction, and their charter remains unchanged, despite calls from European leaders.

I think the most telling thing was the Bus bombings in 1996 by Hamas, deliberately designed to derail the peace process.

So, if Hamas were serious about peace – perhaps they could start by teaching that to their kids (rather than the terrorist mouse-keteers). Then maybe we would have a chance for peace in the next generation.
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January 25, 2009 12:02pm
reid

…you agree its a good idea of Obama’s to release all remaining 245 terrorists from Guantanamo?

I wouldn’t think it would be a good idea to release anyone who was guilty, RB, but if they haven’t reliably identified that for sure, by now, then WTF have they been doing in there all these years?

Don’t you think it’s the case that from a symbolic perspective, Guantanamo is right up there in the Muslim world together with that image from Abu Gharib of the guy on the box with the wires. And do you think that it’s a good thing or a bad thing to have this type of symbology with everything it represents, circulating in the hearts and minds of the very people whom presumably you’re trying to turn away from being angry toward you?
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January 25, 2009 12:03pm
reid

Tim, if you’re interested in this subject, then I suggest you review what I said on all the Gaza threads since December for my answers to all of your points, I don’t want to repeat myself at length here and I don’t think my fellow Kiwibloggers would appreciate the repetition.

In summary, as I said, it’s quite irrelevant what you think the Hamas position might be, because the point is, they were never asked. Negotiations were never serious, they were window dressing designed merely to give plausible deniability – “we tried, they didn’t want to.” I’ve explained precisely why I reached that position with reference to an article from Vanity Fair that details what the US did during that period – it names what Rice, Cheney at al actually did – names, dates, places, documents.

You can go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about how evil Hamas is. As I said, it’s quite irrelevant.
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January 25, 2009 12:10pm
Razork

This makes me sick!
A criminal steals and runs while shooting at innocent bystanders and the police and in an extremely unfortunate accident the police shoot a poor guy who has nothing to do with any of it.

And now the bad guy is the policeman?
The 50yr old criminal should be charged with murder.

How many other lives did the police save by taking affirmative action?
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January 25, 2009 12:12pm
Patrick Starr

Razork. I dont know your experience with shooting but these AOS had rifles, and one of the AOS fired 4 rounds – so in hunting terms he should have had 4 targets!
Not only did he shoot some innocent civ – he didnt even shoot the prick they were after
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January 25, 2009 12:20pm
Redbaiter

Don’t you think it’s the case that from a symbolic perspective,

Reid, I don’t buy into that pro Obama mainstream media feelings driven liberal bullshit. You continue to cheer for those who want to put citizens and troops in harm’s way for the sake of political advantage. I’m for shooting every one of those bastards. That’s the only message the terrorist forces will ever understand, and we won’t have peace until every one of them is dead. Your last paragraph is just sickening liberal hogwash and propaganda driven bullshit.

We’re at war you fool, with people who hate you as much as they hate me, and would kill us both without turning a hair. Beyond reason, violence is all they understand, so lets give it to them until they’re defeated. Release of the Guantanamo inmates is something they will perceive as victory, and its the likes of you that have handed it to them.

What will you and Obama have to say when some of those you release from Guantanamo blow up New York with a suitcase nuke??
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January 25, 2009 12:22pm
transmogrifier

redbaiter – is that what he’s doing, releasing ALL of them back into free society? Or is he planning to actually give them trials, like regular suspects? And did you know many of the prisoners were already cleared for release by the Bush administration, but had no countries willing to take them?

I want to see what you actually know (not what you’d like to be true) before bothering with an actual reasoned debate.
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January 25, 2009 12:22pm
expat

dunno, what will happen to the terrorists?
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January 25, 2009 12:28pm
Redbaiter

“I want to see what you actually know (not what you’d like to be true) before bothering with an actual reasoned debate.”

Obviously a plan that couldn’t be applied to your good sneering self considering that as evidenced in the preceding paragraph, all you’re good for is questions that show such ignorance of the issues I have to wonder how it is you have been able to form opinions. Why don’t you just make your case or suggest some alternative course of action? I’ll tell you. You don’t have one. All you have is platitudinous half formed ideas that typify the nebulous thinking of the left, and Obama in particular.
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January 25, 2009 12:59pm
TimG_Oz

Thanks for that Reid – I didn’t realise you were so closed minded.

Especially seeing as my original post was all about two communities sharing a dialog and living together, which they already successfully do, as you would know if you ever visited the place you are supposedly so educated about.
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January 25, 2009 1:02pm
Ross Miller

Goodgod … goodgod, did enjoy your rant. Clearly I can’t appeal to reason as you have already made up your mind that the officers involved are a guilty as sin. Would you prefer to have the trial before or after they are sentenced to prison for culpable manslaughter?

p.s. luv your logic. 5 shots fired by the police = (in your words) “uncontrolled firefight” Been in one have you? Some of us have.
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January 25, 2009 1:03pm
transmogrifier

Sorry, red, what was that about Guantanamo? I couldn’t hear you above the delirious obfuscation.
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January 25, 2009 1:05pm
Redbaiter

“Sorry, red,”

No need to apologise, I’ve never had expectations of anything other than smarmy smug condescending sneers anyway. I know the left too well to think otherwise.
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January 25, 2009 1:09pm
GJ

Just received this from an associate, makes interesting reading:

The Uncomfortable Definition of an Infidel …

Allah or the Lord Jesus Christ? The Muslim religion is by far the
fastest growing religion in the UK .

Last month I attended my annual training session that’s required for

maintaining my prison security clearance. During the training session

there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman

Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their beliefs.

I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The

Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a
video.

After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers.

When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked:

‘Please, correct me if I’m wrong, but I understand that most Imams and

clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the

infidels of the world and, that by killing an infidel, (which is a

command to all Muslims) they are assured of a place in heaven.

If that’s the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?’

There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation,

he replied, ‘Non-believers!’

I responded, ‘So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers

of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith

so they can have a place in heaven. Is that correct?’

The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command

to that of ‘a little boy who had just been caught with his hand in the

cookie jar.’

He sheepishly replied, ‘Yes.’

I then stated, ‘Well, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope

Benedict commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr.

Stanley ordering all Protestants to do the same in order to guarantee them a

place in heaven!’

The Imam was speechless!

I continued, ‘I also have a problem with being your ‘friend’ when you

and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me! Let me

ask you a question. Would you rather have your Allah, who tells you to

kill me in order for you to go to heaven, or my Jesus who tells me to love

you because I am going to heaven and He wants you to be there with me?’

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam remained speechless.

Needless to say, the organizers and promoters of the ‘Diversification’

training seminar were not happy with this way of dealing with the

Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslims’ beliefs.

Within twenty years there will be enough Muslim voters in the U..K. to

elect a government of their choice, complete with sharia law

I think everyone in the U.K. should be required to read this, but with

the Liberal justice system, liberal media and the political correctness

madness, there is no way this will be widely publicised.

Please pass this on to all your e-mail contacts.

John Harrison MBE. MIDSc
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January 25, 2009 1:37pm
AG

I then stated, ‘Well, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope Benedict commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith…”

You’re probably right, but he can still be a real douchebag…

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/25/pope-benedict-richard-williamson

“Benedict yesterday welcomed back into the Roman Catholic Church Richard Williamson and three other men who were excommunicated in 1988 after being ordained without Vatican permission. The three had been appointed by breakaway French archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. The Vatican decree issued yesterday spoke of overcoming the “scandal of divisiveness” and seeking reconciliation with Lefebvre’s conservative order, the Society of Saint Pius X, which opposes the modernisation of Catholic doctrine.

But Jewish groups have warned the Pope that the decision could damage Catholic-Jewish relations after Williamson claimed in an interview, broadcast last week, that historical evidence “is hugely against six million having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler … I believe there were no gas chambers”.”
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January 25, 2009 3:50pm
reid

What will you and Obama have to say when some of those you release from Guantanamo blow up New York with a suitcase nuke??

See here’s the thing, RB. It’s very clear there is a genuine terrorist threat, therefore you have to take serious effective action. The question is, have the actions that have been taken by Bush been the best possible actions to take given the objective of reducing the threat? That’s the only real question here.

In relation to closing Guantanamo I answered the first part of your question by suggesting it would not be a good idea to release a real terrorist and by saying that if they haven’t found the answer to that question by now then WTF have they been doing? So is this clear enough for you in respect of that part? Let me know if not, I’m happy to say the same thing in a different way until you get it.

With respect to the general point about reducing the threat, as I said, Guantanamo is a symbol. It provokes muslims who otherwise would not have been provoked. Do you think that increases or decreases the terrorist threat? Closing Guantanamo is a symbolic act, which will have a wide effect on signalling to muslims there is a new sheriff in town who is not going to act as provacatively as the last one.

I mean, seriously, it’s idiotic to think that if you have an angry group of people, it’s a good thing to provoke them. This has nothing to do with protecting yourself and everything to do with reducing unnecessary provocation. The key word is that Guantanamo is unnecessary provocation and if you can’t see just exactly why that is the case and why closing it does not have to affect your security, well then you’re not quite as bright as I once thought you were.
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January 25, 2009 4:02pm
reid

Especially seeing as my original post was all about two communities sharing a dialog and living together, which they already successfully do, as you would know if you ever visited the place you are supposedly so educated about.

Analyzing Israel’s Gaza strategy does not require an understanding of the finer nuances of the relationships that exist in that place, Tim. This is elementary human nature.

Let’s see. You have an elected govt. You refuse to deal with them. You deny them access to money, food, medicine, fuel. Then you bomb the fuck out of them. Then you invade them. Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but am I right in thinking that if you were a Gazan, you would be fucking furious? Does understanding this require an exquisite understanding of the finer nuances of Gazan-Israeli relationships? I don’t think so.

Your original post was about how peace is achieved through dialogue. I quite agree. I was merely pointing out, that Israel chose deliberately not to undertake any sort of dialogue whatsoever. To the contrary it undertook multiple aggressive actions up to and including killing people. That’s a fact. You can’t deny it. That’s what happened. Now frankly I think anyone who blames the Gazans alone for being furious over all of this is the one who has the closed mind.
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January 25, 2009 4:11pm
reid

GJ, nice post.

There’s a very good book that everyone who is interested in Islam vs the West should read. It’s called “Islam and the Jews: The unfinished battle” by Dr. Mark Gabriel.

Gabriel is a former Imam who converted to Christianity and he explains a lot of little-known details of the Islamic faith including how they regard Christians and Jews, etc. He is highly critical of the Islamic faith.

Another apparently very good book that covers the exact subject your post refers to is called “Mosques and Miracles” by Stuart Robinson. I haven’t read it yet but I’m just about to pick it up. Someone who has read it tells me it’s great.

On the general subject of war breaking out between the west and Islam, I have always found Albert Pike’s letter to Mazzini to be highly insightful. As everyone knows, in this letter, written in 1871, Pike predicted both WWI and WWII and explained the purpose of each of these and who the combatants would be. He was precisely correct both with respect to the combatants and the outcomes of both those conflicts. Re: WWIII, this is what the letter allegedly says:

“The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the “agentur” of the “Illuminati” between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time.”

Of course as soon as you mention “illuminati” and “lucifer” some people immediately undergo an emotional short-circuit and their logic flies out the window. Consequently they don’t actually objectively examine the circumstances but rather figuratively put their hands over their ears and begin shouting lalalalalalala, couldn’t possibly be true etc. Amazingly they reach this conclusion without even looking into it, and such people even think such behaviour is entirely rational. Isn’t that funny.
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January 25, 2009 4:40pm
TimG_Oz

Reid – so we agree on a lot of things.

Firtsly, by all accounts Israel does negotiate with Hamas, in secret. The last 6 month ‘ceasefire’ was painstakingly negotiated via Egypt.

Now you didn’t mention a thing about Hamas – you must be ignoring this:
– It’s charter,
– The Rockets – which reach from Askelon, to Ashdod, to Bersheva … ever been to any of those places????
– The Suicide Bombers
– Kidnappings
– It’s own ‘internal’ methods of dealing with ‘dissidents’ – be they Fatah, Unionists or “collaborators”
– The propaganda, specifically that targeted towards children

These Hamas guys … are you telling me they’re a bunch of hippies sitting around going “peace”? Why would they be so against the dialog that both you, and agree is necessary for peace??????

Here is an article by an Israeli – advocating that Hamas should be given a chance…

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056808.html

Here’s another article by the same guy …

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/960687.html

Sorry if this goes outside the bounds of your intense study into “Vanity Fair”, that apparently has given you the right to call yourself “informed”
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January 25, 2009 5:13pm
TimG_Oz

Hey Reid,

Have you read any of Amos Oz’s books?

I had the honour to meet him in 1997 and he is a true champion of peace and promoting dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians.

He maintains that the conflict is being kept alive by Extremists on both sides. Hmm … I guess that would include Hamas, wouldn’t it……
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January 25, 2009 5:27pm
big bruv

Interesting clip that highlights the lies of Hussein Obama.

http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=niK1X5rMJbs
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January 25, 2009 6:38pm
kiwi in america

Obama faces the exact same limited options as Bush did re the terrorists detained at Guantanamo Bay. He either:
1. Releases them;
2. Tries them and then if found guilty must find somewhere safe to house them OR
3. Repatriates them to their home country.

No President (especially one as poll driven as Obama) would ever contemplate 1.

If he opts for 2 – where should they be imprisoned?

We know 3 doesn’t work – the 60 odd returned to Yemen have merely rejoined their Al Qaida colleagues in perpetrating new acts of terror.

To all those handwringing liberals who pilloried Bush for his policies vis a vis the captured 9/11 conspirators, prey share with us your wisdom as to what the Messiah should now do.

My pick:after the 120 days trial pause is up, he opts for a beefed up military tribunal that sentences them to life imprisonment and, finding no willing country of origin where they could be repatriated to and no county or city in the US willing to house the perpetrators of 9/11 in their community and, after returning a few prisoners that the Bush Administration had already decided were not real terrorists, he opts for a slimmed down and tightened status quo in Cuba.

The media, who howled long and loud at Bush, will nod sagely and pontificate on the wisdom of the Messiah’s wonderfully nuanced solution-a solution that will be barely indistinguishable from that proposed by Bush.
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January 25, 2009 7:53pm
reid

Tim, I haven’t touched on Hamas because my critique is with the Israeli tactics in dealing with them.

While I think that the military wing of Hamas are a bunch of murderous thugs, Hamas also has an extensive grassroots organisation that runs aid distribution, hospitals, schools, etc. This is precisely why the Gazan’s elected them.

I don’t deny at all that Israel is surrounded by hostile entities, and I have never advocated that Israel should in any way relax her vigilance. What I have argued is that Israel’s aggressive tactics merely exacerbate hatred in the worst possible way and therefore, they are counter-productive.

It was not necessary for Israel to react toward Hamas the way she did for two reasons:
(a) she is not under existential threat (i.e. she wears an impenetrable suit of armour), and
(b) who the hell thinks that Fatah was or is any better than Hamas, and who knows whether it wasn’t Fatah that was firing some Qassams and therefore why the hell did Israel choose not to deal with Hamas but to deal with Fatah. Why?

Israel has two basic choices. She can either kill everyone in Gaza, or she can negotiate with them.

The whole point is, that the tactics she has used, since the election of Hamas, have simply stirred up the hornets, rather than calmed them down. Now if you don’t intend to kill everyone, why would you want to do that, as in, how is this tactic productive?

I have explained all the details such as precisely why Israel is not under existential threat, on all the Gaza threads that DPF has run since December. I suggest you start at the most recent thread and search for my posts since the most recent ones are essentially pithy summaries of my earlier points. That will save you some time.

I haven’t read Amos Oz, but he sounds good, do you have any particular books in mind?
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January 25, 2009 10:23pm
Patrick Starr

Thanks for the link Bruv.
Aside from the ‘inconsistencies’ I’m actually surprised the amount of times Obama- (the great orator) stumbles in his speech =- certainly not the choice selection of media clips portrayed around the world.

The more I see this man the more I’m convinced he’s very hollow and going to lead the USA to crap
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January 25, 2009 11:01pm
TimG_Oz

Indeed, Charity is a huge part of Islamic culture, and I am sure that Hamas is no different to many other devout Muslims in following this. Some things do concern me though, such as this report from the Jordanian News agency that “armed gunmen” in Gaza intercepted an Aid shipment: http://www.petranews.gov.jo/nepras/2009/Jan/20/19000.htm

I don’t think there is any doubt or denial that Hamas are firing the rockets – they were able to manage a ceasefire. Hamas were elected under the premise that Fatah was “corrupt”. The insinuation that was that this was both financially corrupt (again, no doubt there – it is well documented), but also morally corrupt, because they negotiated with Israel and the US.

I still don’t think things are as black and white for what Israel should or shouldn’t do. See the link earlier from Bradley Burston stating 7 options (not 2), each as flawed or failed as the other. The objective seemed to be quite clearly to remove Hamas ability to target civilians over a large area of land (Ashkelon, Ashdod and Beersheva are all quite far from Gaza!), not to kill everybody – but you are right, it who knows what else it may bring in the future that is even worse. I guess we are lucky that those rockets aren’t landing in our schools and backyards that we have to make such a crap decision.

My recommendation for Amos Oz is “Israel, Palestine and Peace: Essays” – it’s a little more dated to the mid nineties, but I think you’ll appreciate the logic that he presents. Many of his works are fiction, and my favourite is “My Michael” which I found to be a rich tapestry of life, set around the 1956 Suez crisis. I have to admit there are more that I want to read though
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January 25, 2009 11:26pm
MT_Tinman

Patrick, the man was elected on the sole platform of If you don’t vote for me you’re racist.

Of course he’s shallow.

More like Carter than Clinton.

The only good thing is that after Carter the world got the greatest modern US president – Regan.

Hopefully there is someone waiting (Arnie if he can get the rules changed?) to step up in four years time.
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January 25, 2009 11:31pm
Eisenhower

Reid, do you think that if Israel does not counter with overwhelming reactive force that her enemies will be emboldened and continue their offensive?

I would suggest that the scarring of southern Lebanon including the damage to Hezbollah’s infrastructure and leaving behind thousands of cluster munitions as a reminder of the price to be paid, not to mention the wall separating the West Bank from Israel proper and grabbing slices of territory as retribution for the suicide squads, and now the white phosphorous, flechettes, tungsten powder and any other means at its disposal discourages the election of a hostile future government towards a vastly superior neighbour of immediate proximity. Ever wonder why Cuba does not lob ordinance on to Florida?

Gazans knew Hamas’ military wing would step up the offensive when they voted. And now the opposition is bloodily no more. Can Fatah submit candidates for the next poll…and will there be one? The population now reap what they sowed.
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January 25, 2009 11:52pm
reid

Thanks for that ref Tim. The final comment I’ll make here about this is that I believe as I said in my first comment on this thread, that the most likely explanation as to why Israel is doing what it’s doing is that it’s running a divide and rule strategy. In a few years time, Hamas could become the good guys and Fatah the bad guys. Who knows what will happen between now and then, but that and the fact there are Israeli elections in February, is about the only rational thing that explains why Israel took this action which unfortunately, as I said in December, was only ever going to be negative for Israel, and so it has proven to be.

You wait. Suicide bombings, even more rockets, increased regional animosity, increased support for Hamas, strengthened Iran-Hamas relationship – all entirely predictable results which I predicted from the outset. Where is the upside for Israel? There isn’t one. And if I knew this in December, then you can bet Mossad and the IDF knew it too. So why did they do it.

Personally, if I was to take a guess, I’d say it was the Likud politicians that took the chance to both bolster their own re-election and at the same time, hem Obama into a ME strategy with a whole lot fewer options than were available prior to this operation. This is exactly how those idiots think, and the fact that Gaza is a total disaster with no upside whatsoever for the people of Israel, is entirely consistent with their own track record. Look at Lebanon, for example. Naturally, the neo-cons in the WH went right along with it, as they are wont to do.

Again Tim, appreciate the links, and nice discussing this issue with you, in a civil and rational manner. Cheers,
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January 25, 2009 11:57pm
TimG_Oz

Sure – Thanks Mate.

But if I were you I wouldn’t make the judgement calls (i.e. “this is why they did this”, “this is how those idiots think”) without the facts from both sides or experience on the ground, or rather in the front line.

Again … I stand by the point it’s easy for us to judge in our comfy little countries … but I’m not sure what I would want my government to do or not to do would be the same if rockets were landing on my kid’s school….
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January 26, 2009 12:26am

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