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How can it be that a man who aspired, for years and years, to be Prime Minister of New Zealand, never learned to speak a word of Maori language or even pronounce Maori words correctly? Is that wilful neglect or just ignorance?
[DPF: I presume Phil Goff never had the time as he was too busy as a Minister]
`Can women read maps’. – A sergeant was teaching his soldiers map reading and said that one of the greatest hazards the soldiers would come across is a second lieutenant with a map.
Bearing in mind that this is an initial report only and not conclusive, it says that there is confusion as to what sort of checks are made on these sorts of flights and the difference between European standards and ours. What is also evident, is the state of confusion on board that existed between the German captain (also the Pilot-in-Command) and the Air NZ captain who was asking for checks to be done that the German pilot wasn’t prepared for as they are not a regular part of his flight operations. While not expressly asked either but implied is why a test such as a low speed test was done at such a low altitude.
Not to be a harbinger here but look for some measure of blame from the BEA to be leveled at the ANZ Captain in the full report to come.
This is just me reading between the lines but read it yourselves and see what you think. It will be interesting to see the repercussions of such if it comes to pass as I have said.
Goff is monolingual as well? That’s just as bad. My question is a genuine one (and this is a ‘general debate thread). How can anyone hoping to hold a high office in New Zealand not upskill themselves by learning to speak at least some Maori language? It’s a disgrace, I reckon.
David your reply to the green insect (known to distribute infectious deseases) has really got my day off to a good start. Thanks. pdm, I doubt the language in question will ever be any practical use to anyone, for anything.
Greenfly: Its only a disgrace as far as the politics of the far left are concerned. For the rest of us, we don’t really give a shit provided he does a good job of leading the country.
Also, Bolding damning lines in you random outbursts without providing links is tiresome.
Greenfly …. you might think that with the worlds economy going pear shaped John, Bill, Phil, Annette, Rodney, Peter, Jim, Jeanette and Wussel have better things to do.
Sorry, got that wrong didn’t I. In the all inclusive, all at sea, completely irrelevant Green Party, mastery of Te Reo takes precidence over competence.
Do most people in NZ know that the male co-leader of the greens is not a kiwi at all and is merely a journeyman politician plying his trade accross the world?
greenfly said “Goff is monolingual as well? That’s just as bad. My question is a genuine one (and this is a ‘general debate thread). How can anyone hoping to hold a high office in New Zealand not upskill themselves by learning to speak at least some Maori language? It’s a disgrace, I reckon.”
greenfly – so on that basis, you’d be equally scathing about any MP who has not learned sign language, given that it is an official language as well.
Greenfly … I have some sympathy for your point of view that it’d be good for senior politicians in New Zealand to be able to hold their own in Maori.
But personally, I’m more concerned that we get the best person for the job, in terms of their vision, leadership and ability to grow the country (in lots of dimensions … financially, socially etc). Given a choice between, say, John Key as PM or Parekura Horomia, it’s pretty hard to say “Hey, let’s go with Parekura because he can te reo”.
The job of PM has more important needs than just being able to speak Maori.
There is nothing genuine about you greenfly, you are what I call a gardener, in that you sow seeds of dissention, and hope a few of them germinate, what you fail to realise that the majority of Kiwiblog readers and contributors are well read, thinking individuals, who see through people like you and toad and redbaiter etc, you really should put your very limited talents to work where you may reap a crop of dependants e.g the standard, where you may well garner 1 or 2 young not yet fully life developed school kids.
Like I said a droll troll………………
I guess when people like me respond to your inane comments you get a little stiffy on, or a wide on?
If I have made your day by you getting the reaction you required, it is my pleasure.
“Interesting development in the matter of Obama’s persistent refusal to allow the public to view his original birth certificate- http://www.wnd.com/static/89837.html”
Of course, if this is to be regarded as valid evidence of something (to wit, the invalidity of Obama’s presidency), then the following also must be evidence of something (to wit, the illegality of the invasion of Iraq). Right, RB? Or do dissenting US soldiers only count when they are supporting crusades you happen to like?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article612898.ece
” One Toronto lawyer, Jeffry House, has represented at least 20 deserters from Iraq in the Canadian courts; he is himself a conscientious objector, having refused to fight in the Vietnam war – along with 50,000 others, at the peak of the conflict. He estimates that 200 troops have already gone underground in Canada since the war in Iraq began.”
A very good question pdm,
John Tamahere remarked that Bradford didn’t look that good 20 years ago on a good day.
So true, but just another example of disengenuous information, from the communist party.
Ear bashed, MNIJ. In te reo. And this would make you feel uncomfortable. You see, we care for each other’s feelings here at Kiwiblog, and wouldn’t want you to feel bad.
My question still is; why didn’t Key (or any would be politician) at least become familiar with the language of the treaty partner? Surely, thinking ahead, a person wishing to lead the country would want to have that skill? I know Bill English has worked to learn to korero and I admire him for that. He sees that it is more than a courtesy to have some ability and familiarity with te reo when interacting with such an important sector of New Zealand society. Key though, did nothing in preparation. I’m not suggesting that he do it now (many of you are pointing out that there are more pressing matters) I’m aking why he neglected to attend to it while he was developing his prime ministerial skills. I believe it reveals a great lack in his abilities, understanding and committment to the job he now holds.
lofty – I have no desire to pleasure you. My thoughts are genuine.
Inventory2 – no. I think it is more important to be able to understand and speak some Maori language, than it is to be able to sign. Signing would be useful, but the instances of a prime minister attending events where most attendees are deaf is somewhat less than where the gathering is Maori. Why right wing commentators bristle at the idea of familiarity with maori language never fails to interest me. Most become very defensive and dismissive. This is not the case in ‘other circles’. Tino rereke tena.
Grenfly – languages don’t always come easily to everyone. I personally don’t care if Key can speak Maori or not. He has a translator for that if he needs it.
Greenfly’s devious questions on Te Reo reflect the melon greens’ pathetic attempts to win Maori support against the Maori Party, Labour, and National.
Knowing Maori language is no more a requirement for being an NZ political leader than knowing how to fire up a bong or roll a marijuana cigarette is a requirement for being a Green leader. Or for having to folk dance to be a Green member. Is knowledge of Maori, or acquaintance with Maori, a requirement for being a Green member? It’s as relevant to them as being able to rain dance or keep clean on 2 litres of water a day?
And who would agree on what was an adequate acquaintance with Maori language?
THe Greens are scratching like their beloved hens for relevance after the latest election. THey locked themselves out and are struggling.
But smarter Greens everywhere must be aware that in tough economic times, Maslow’s order of wants comes into play and the irrational fears Greens decline in importance on the “fears/concerns/needs” ladder. Shelter, food, clothes, warmth take priority again.
More people will recognise the Greens’ Nature neo-mysticism as the dope-induced ravings of what is no more than a flaky sect.
Greenfly how fucking fluent was Helen? How do you say “haters and wreckers” in Te Reo? And how fucking fluent are the Green caucus? Why don’t you just fuck off?
Virtualmark, thanks for this reply on an earlier thread, I’ve only just got to it.
virtualmark (605) Vote: 1 0 Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
“PhilBest … I agree with the general idea that derivatives markets are ordinarily better predictors of economic direction than stock markets are.
But I’d also say that a lot of the behaviour on both markets isn’t strictly rational (ie accurate), hence the term “bubble”. And I think a **lot** of the recent trading on both derivative and stock markets (ie the prices being pushed down) is due to forced selling from margin calls, portfolio rebalancing, needing to fund withdrawals etc, rather than being strictly rational views of what people think the future holds.
Personally, I think the dodgy loans at the heart of this financial crisis are about the same % of USA GDP that the savings & loans collapse was back in the 1980s. What’s different this time is that the underlying bubble affects Europe and (to a lesser extent) Asia too…..”
Virtualmark, do you not suspect that some very clever operators like George Soros have not in fact been making buckets of money on the basis of strictly rational and much more astute analysis of what the future holds, in effect profiting from the mass ignorance that infests everyone else from central bankers down?
Have you read any estimates of the total size of the derivatives market in the world? Do you think that the amount of the selling that you say is “forced”, is bigger or lesser than the deliberate operations of clever uber-investors?
Regarding the S&L crisis back in the 1980′s, there was nothing like the sort of housing price bubble that there has been today. As Peter Schiff keeps saying, “….this is not just about “sub-prime”…..this is the whole mortgage market….”
Take a look at the graph of the history of house prices in the USA kindly reproduced on THIS page:
When you say that the underlying bubble affects Europe too, you are again seriously understating the case. Many countries in Europe have had a domestic housing bubble that is worse than the US one, and they created it for themselves through their own domestic policies. We in NZ, and also the Aussies, have what are among the world’s worst ones, too.
Also “what’s different this time”, compared to earlier bubbles and crashes (Dotcom, sharemarket, etc), is the enormous extent to which the entire population of each country has taken on debt; NZ being the second worst in the world after Iceland in this respect, and considerably worse than the USA.
My question still is; why didn’t Key (or any would be politician) at least become familiar with the language of the treaty partner? Surely, thinking ahead, a person wishing to lead the country would want to have that skill? I know Bill English has worked to learn to korero and I admire him for that. He sees that it is more than a courtesy to have some ability and familiarity with te reo when interacting with such an important sector of New Zealand society. Key though, did nothing in preparation
I would appreciate some quantification of your statement that key did “nothing”. I hear what you are saying. However, Key is a very new politician, and just perhaps he had other more pressing things to learn.
After all, unlike Clark, Key hasn’t had 28 years as an MP to hone his Te Reo….
sensafine – “Key hasn’t had 28 years as an MP to hone his Te Reo”
Granted, but he’s been a New Zealander hankering after the top job for years and years. Did he not think ahead?
Murray M – how fluent is the Green caucus – I’ll wager they’re more fluent over all, than any other (bar the Maori Party
Lofty – “couldn’t have put it better myself” – true, you couldn’t
goodgod and dad (you’re back!) I’ve developed resistance.
Jack5 – think Jack, think! You can do it!
greenfly you can wager all you want, but that’s not the fucking point. Don’t have a go at Key over something totally irrelevent when a good number of the lot you support probably wouldn’t pass Te Reo 101.
PhilBest … while I respect George Soros acumen I’d also point out that other professional investors aren’t exactly dumb either. I don’t see malicious hands at work manipulating share prices or derivative prices etc. And I don’t see mass ignorance either.
There has been a lot of forced selling going on in the last 6 months, particularly due to funds having to sell assets to meet their clients’ demands to withdraw their money and from margin calls. A few people like George Soros, for example, are fortunate in having the luxury of being able to take the counter-cyclical view and buy up assets at this time. Most funds aren’t able to do that.
I think it’s important to separate derivatives from their underlying asset. It’s possible for a whole lot of derivatives to quickly become worthless. But that doesn’t have any real effect on the underlying. Just because a bunch of people lose their shirts on Boeing options or Nasdaq futures doesn’t mean that Boeing or the Nasdaq is threatened. It might make a bunch of hedge funds returns look pretty ill, which in turn does affect people’s wealth, but it doesn’t have a direct effect on the underlying real economy. It’s pretty much the same as saying that if DPF backs the wrong choice on iPredict about Phil Goff getting rolled then DPF loses some money, but it has absolutely no influence on when Labour does eventually stick the knife into Phil.
Re the relative size & severity of this crisis vs others … last figures I saw suggested that about US$700 billion of US mortgages were impaired. Even if all those mortgages totally defaulted, and even if the holders then couldn’t get anything for the underlying houses (remember, the mortgages are secured against property) then that’s less than 5% of the USA’s annual GDP. That’s the same size as the S&L crisis in the 1980s.
Sure, there’s been a housing price bubble. And before that there was a dot com price bubble. And before that there were tulip bubbles. And the Scots still have some South Seas schemes they could sell you shares in. In every expansion, a different sector generates the bubble that causes the eventual recession. This time it was the financial services and housing industries and this time it was partly debt funded. But the nature of debt is that it gets serviced or it takes the assets away. The losses get sheeted home to the equity-holder (aka homeowner). But in a lot of ways that equity is paper wealth. That’s not to diminish the problems many home owners face. But the thing is, once they put their equity in their house it’s fairly locked away and it typically only ever comes out again when they switch to another house. Which has also dropped in value, so their relative purchasing power hasn’t drastically changed.
sensafine – “Key hasn’t had 28 years as an MP to hone his Te Reo”
Granted, but he’s been a New Zealander hankering after the top job for years and years. Did he not think ahead?
Living overseas for most of that time. But thats really irrelevant. You cant even spell Italian when it’s right in front of your face. And yet you lambast other folk for being unfamiliar with a tongue that is not native to them.
PhilBest … just found the info I was looking for on the Savings & Loans crisis in the 1980s. The impaired assets were mostly commercial real estate, and they represented about 8% to 10% of US GDP at the time. Not surprisingly, commercial real estate values plummeted in the late 1980s and early 1990s and took about 10 years for them to recover.
Redbaiter Like you I am puzzled as to why Barry wont let us see his birth certificate He doesnt seem to understand that in the 2009 paradigm of governance ” Trust me I know what Im doing “or “Trust me Ive seen the BC and its kosher” dont cut the mustard.
Ggod Governance 2009 style is all about transpernacey and disclosure All of it.
Fact that Barry wont show us just makes people like me who like good clean governance a tad nervous.
Alas Ive seen in the past with NFPs when its turned out a person wasnt eligible for election or appointment because someone didnt ask the right question or look at the right documents until it was all too late.
Wouldnt it be a scream if it turned out that everyone including Barry has assumed it was all Ok until it was too late and then when they did look at the BC Shucks What the F….. are we going to do now.
Greenfly buzzed at 12.55: “Murray M – how fluent is the Green caucus – I’ll wager they’re more fluent over all, than any other (bar the Maori Party)….”
Respectfully, Greenfly I would like point out your typo. In your post, you wrote “fluent” for “effluent”.
Greenfly, If you would like to provide a list of politicians who are fluent in Maori that you would like to see as PM, I would be happy to see it.
I would also happily debate the merits of each being PM with you.
For the record however, Parekura Horomia would be an embarrassment in the job. Hone Harawira, though he has my respect as a man of principle, would also be ill suited. Pita Sharples is a great representative for his people, but the maori party will never be in the position to provide a person who could be PM.
A maori Prime Minister is a possibility, but not from the current parliament I would think.
senzafine – lambast! Hah! Gentle chider, that’s me. As for your justification for Key’s lack of familiarity with Maori language – ‘Living overseas for most of that time’ That’s supposed to comfort those who have doubts about his suitability for a leading role in this country? He’s been away a long time? Sheesh!
Jack5 – playing with words eh Jack! Careful you don’t scald yourself.
“Greenfly’s devious questions on Te Reo” devious! Straight as a die, me.
slightly – I’ve not suggesting fluency, just respectful familiarity. I can see, in my inner insect mind’s eye, a New Zealand Prime Minister who can speak both English and Maori. Metiria Turei for Pirimia!
Anyone seen John Key’s birth certificate? Usually reliable sources have suggested that he is really an Australian born in Wagga Wagga, real name Bazza Mackenzie, brought here by Crosby Textor as a spare in case Brash failed. It would certainly explain his unfamiliarity with both official languages of NZ.
I don’t see the point of hassling either Helen Clark or John Key for their accents. They’re both Kiwi accents – different varieties, and stronger than many others.
Joe Dzug – thanks Joe! Levity! Vitriol free.
Big Bro – and thanks to you as well. I’m always invigorated by your support
Are we going to debate as you suggest, Slightlyrightly? Hope so.
Virtualmark, thanks for the interesting discussion. But if things are really so similar now in the USA, to the old S&L crisis, why such huge bailouts? I said THIS on an earlier thread:
The “investment” game that has gone down in the last few years, has been like this. “Wall Street” and the investment industry all over the world, by and large, went along with the politicians beliefs that the good times were a result of good management, and were real and could be relied on. In a mass failure of imagination, from first home buyers to speculators to mortgage lenders to investors, huge financial positions were taken based on the assumption that house prices could keep going up forever and debt could keep expanding forever, regardless of how far behind incomes and production were left.
The worst over-reach occurred in the selling of derivatives, which bluntly speaking, turned into bets on the financial situation. If someone in the financial industry was gambling on the good times continuing to roll, they sold derivatives, and earned themselves fat fees in the process. This underpinned a lot of the huge profits that were being made by some. Warning lights should have been flashing all over the place, about the fact that there was so much money being willingly put down on the table by BUYERS of derivatives, and in similar positioning that stood to benefit in the event of a downturn. These people were right, and the flow of profits has reversed and multiplied many times, from the institutions who were selling these derivatives, to those who were buying them.
There is a fundamental assumption about the US financial sector “dragging down Europe and the rest of the world” because of their having invested in toxic mortgage-based securities. But this completely ignores the fact that the worst damage to the US financial sector has occurred because of the huge payouts they have had to make against derivatives. The holders of these derivatives, whether in Europe or wherever, are being fabulously enriched. Many buyers of the toxic securities hedged by buying such derivatives, and are in fact in a healthy position.
And in so far as actual destruction of wealth in crashing asset values is taking place, this has everything to do with each nations monetary and fiscal mismanagement over the last decade or two and little to do with the positions taken by the various operators in the financial markets, who were merely reading the conditions correctly or incorrectly as the case may be. And those who were reading it incorrectly were virtually joined at the hip to the politicians and central bankers that were setting up the crisis. Actually, exactly the same sequence of events as has occurred in the USA, has occurred in the UK and Europe; they too have had house price bubbles, ballooning private debt, and the development of a massive financial casino over the resulting false boom.
The world badly needs to work out who has gained and what they are doing with their new wealth, because it is pointless continuing to pour taxpayers money into a financial sector where there are huge transfers of wealth going on. It is pointless propping up failing institutions out of which huge amounts of money are flowing, when the necessary recapitalisation of the whole finance sector is already within the power of the clever operators who have gained so much. Their money must be sitting somewhere, or being used for something. This is a separate issue to the destruction of wealth that has occurred in the collapse of the world’s housing and mortgage bubbles.
So in a way, I agree with you, Virtualmark, that the underlying crisis shouldn’t be as bad as the size of the rapidly vanishing bailout money seems to indicate. My suspicion is that this bailout money is flowing out as fast as it is flowing in, and some uber-investors are raking it in at the expense of the taxpayer and the future generations who will be picking up the tab for all the borrowed and printed money.
Greenfly, I put it to you that John Key has shown far more respect to Maori than any prime minister of recent times. So he cannot speak Te Reo. However, he has entered into an agreement with the elected representatives of maori in a far more inclusive way than Labour has done, and he did not have to.
He has shown far more willingness to be inclusive, and open to debate on issues than predecessors. He has also issued a challenge to Maori on specific issues, for example, he is happy to fly a maori flag, as soon as all maori agree to a flag.
Maori are being treated as equals by our PM. Would Maori rather be treated as equals by someone who can communicate, but not in their language? Or would Maori rather be treated with disdain?
slightlyrightly – you put it to me and I’ve no argument with what you say. I can’t and don’t speak for Maori (though I can speak in Maori (apea) but would venture to say that in a great many instances they would prefer to hear their language being used, and used well. Nobody likes to be treated with disdain, slightlyrightly! Key is lacking in his education. He would be a better PM if he was able to korero Maori, ne ra? Now, Metiria for PM? You are happy to debate still?
A true to life photo of Bradford would be guaranteed to `scare the horses’.
Oops forgot – Greenfly and his ilk ride on Cullens trainset these days don’t they. I have heard they want to go back to steam trains so they can put the `grass’ in with the coal.
It may be my upbringing, but how does a radical anarcho-feminist fit into the role of Prime Minister? Mr Key has shown himself to listen to those who are different in opinion to him. Would we get the same from Ms Turei?
She states that “My personal political journey has led me to the reasonable conclusion that the present state has no legitimacy”
Which leads to the reasonable question, what sort of PM would she be, and how would a person of her standing and viewpoint get into the role in the first place, seeing as the democracy we have in NZ would not elect a person such as her?
When the recent bailout was first touted it was talked about in the same basic terms. Basically the Feds would create a new Resolution Trust Corp, use it to buy up all and any dodgy mortgage-backed securities at a fixed rate of, say, 50 cents in the dollar. Then the Resolution Trust Corp would break the securities back out into their individual mortgages, work out which were okay and which were impaired, reparcel the okay ones up and resell them, and work out the impaired ones.
More recently both administrations have veered a little away from that. I think because initially the problem was to do with dodgy mortgages (the “sub-prime problem”, which first came to prominence in late-2007) but then that got overtaken by a banking liquidity crisis (didn’t get a catchy name, but this was where the banks stopped lending to each other, which really threatened the financial systems stability). So I think a lot of the bail-out focus moved to ensuring there was overt backing for each bank … just like the Nats have done with their wholesale banking guarantee.
greenfly – you might have a shred of validity in your arguments until you make such statements as “Meteria for PM” – t’aint going to happen in my lifetime, nor those of my children!
BTW – I seem to recall Key telling an interviewer earlier in the year that he would like to learn te reo Maori. With friends such as Dr Pita Sharples, who knows – he might be able to kai korero in no time!
PhilBest, I broadly agree with you that the current crisis can be pinned on far more than just Wall St. Sure, there’s a lot of schadenfreude in the big swinging dicks of Wall St getting castrated. It makes good newspaper headlines to pin the problems on Goldman Sachs, except Goldies don’t write mortgages.
The real problem has been all those nice people at dinner parties drunk on property speculation and talking about buying 2-3 investment properties. At prices that the rental yield just simply couldn’t justify. They were aided and abetted by the high street banks, who all lined up to shovel mortgages at those nice people as fast as possible, and as is now clear didn’t in all cases take enough care about ensuring the mortgage was serviceable in a downturn.
Wall St’s role was to package up lots of those (American) mortgages and sell them as an investment product. That wasn’t a bad thing as such, but it’s just that grouping thousands of mortgages together like that made it so much harder to clearly see which individual mortgages were okay and which were in trouble. So without that clarity everyone took the conservative view that all of the mortgages were bad, and so they stopped lending against those assets. So yes, Wall St is responsible for the problems that crashed inter-bank lending.
But Mums & Dads are responsible for the big old debt hangover that we have today.
Can Russell Norman speak maori? Because when the sea rises 100 m he is a shoe in for Prime Minister. So I hope he can. I note Greenfly doesnt tell us or hold him up as an example. Which is probably fair enough as Norman, afterall, is an Australian. Does he speak Aboriginal? No?, I guess thats why hes here.
Lucky us.
And Greenfly, insects dont have “minds” which you demonstrate every day.
PhilBest … I’d caution against seeing derivatives as the bogeyman. My experience is that the people railing against derivatives don’t fully understand how they’re used. I think it’s important to keep in mind a few things:
First, a derivative does not directly affect the underlying asset. Just because the derivatives become worthless doesn’t mean the underlying company/commodity has changed value at all.
Second, I’d caution against the idea that “the value of all the derivatives of, say, Microsoft, is worth far more than the value of all Microsoft’s shares, so how can all the derivatives ever be honoured”. The straightforward answer is that they are never expected to all be honoured. Many of them will end up with zero values.
Third, remember that while investors have overall payed billions for derivatives they paid that money to someone. The money didn’t disappear. It’s still in circulation. It’s just that some people made a bad bet and lost their money to someone else. Or, more sophisticated terms, they paid an insurance premium and didn’t need to claim.
There does seem to be a group of people who rail against derivatives and other complex financial stuff. They tend to be the same group that can’t get their head around floating currencies and want to return to the gold standard. It’s great conspiracy stuff, but their underlying economics are a bit soft.
Granted, but he’s been a New Zealander hankering after the top job for years and years. Did he not think ahead?
Greenfly, your argument is moot. Obivously he thought ahead, he became prime minister in his first attempt to gain the position. Perhaps if he had taken the time to learn the language, he wouldn’t have been able to position himself to become PM? In what current way is his lack of te Reo holding him back? So far he has achieved more with the Maori Party than any other government in power. Also, where is their proof that he can’t speak any te reo? I know plenty of speakers and they don’t just whip it out as a party trick, they use it when required/appropriate.
labrator – perhaps. Key can’t korero. Of course Key ‘thought ahead’. My question is (still is) why didn’t he think a reasonable grasp of te reo tuturu was important enough to give some time to. You reckon he can? You reckon he ought to be able to? I do. Labrator – he ‘kiore i roto i te taiwhanga putaiao’ koe?
Captain Crab – I’d put Russel Norman’s language skills up against Key’s anytime.
As to what you say insects don’t have – I don’t mind.
Inventory2 – Key might (should) be learning now. Why did he wait til now? His heart wasn’t in it. He didn’t care to learn.
I’m dissapointed that you won’t honour your offer to debate. You sure faded fast!
Inv2 – apologies for the last nonsensical sentence.
slightlyrighty – yes, it is your upbringing. Just as many New Zealanders find someone with Key’s money-focused background entirely innapropriate as a leader in charge of the fate of people , there will be those who would be uncomfortable with what the see as ‘the wrong sort of background’ in Metiria. You would have to ‘look at the person’ in real time. Metiria is a very astute, very balanced woman. She has several advantages over Key: she’s a she – she knows woman’s affairs as well as any (woman) Key can’t. She has Maori ancestry and real knowledge of the ao Maori. Key hasn’t. Metiria has another tremendous advantage over Key – she understands and identifies with the Greens These are just a few points in favour of Metiria for PM. There are others I can outline, but I’ll wait to see if you have the interest in debating further.
greenfly … doesn’t the idea of talking about an ex-anarchist’s suitability to be PM strike even the Greens as too much like the lunatics running the asylum???
Greenfly, I am happy to tell you what irritates me about you,
you are disingenuous, end of story, you say you are genuine, but your posts say otherwise.
I have said it before and I will say it again, I have walked and talked your talk, grew up, found my independence, started to live a little, employed 26 wonderful people, fell in love with the benefits of being an employer, learn’t to care for my fellow humans, learn’t to care for my earth, you are a mischief maker of no consequence.
Thats what irritates me about you, go and start your own blog that no one will visit.
Oh! thats why you are here, because this is where the crowd gathers.
Yes you irritate me, because you are a juvenile know nothing, when you have seen, done, experienced all that I have ( I am convinced you most certainly have not) then I may prick an ear.
Until then bye
Greenfly, you continue to see Key as being money focused. You assume that Key, coming from the background that he has, has no business being in charge of the fate of people.
From where do you derive that assumption?
Are you possibly guilty of precisely the same sort of prejudices that you have tried to highlight in me? Where does your distrust in the ‘stereotypical’ tory politician come from? I’d really like to know that one.
Key is not Maori, he is not a woman. Metiria (Why the constant use of her first name anyway?) is not a man, she is not Pakeha.
By your reasoning the ideal Prime Minister would be some sort of bi-racial hermaphrodite. The fact is that no person can be all things to all people. But having the ‘correct’ racial makeup or the ‘correct’ gender is no way to determine who would or should lead a government.
Neither gender or ethnicity was a factor in the electing of John Key. His Gender and linguistic strengths or weaknesses are obviously of some concern to you. Well, I have more faith over John Key’s ability in the areas we need him to be able to be proficient in at this time. In these areas he seems to be performing very well, and I take the fact that people such as you are participating in forums such as these saying “Key doesn’t speak any Maori, we would expect that from a Prime minister” as further proof that he is working well where we need him.
Greenfly posted at 8.25pm:”She(Metiria Turei) has several advantages over Key: she’s a she – she knows woman’s affairs as well as any (woman) Key can’t. She has Maori ancestry and real knowledge of the ao Maori. Key hasn’t.”
Greenfly your argument is sexist (Turei would be a better PM than Key because she’s a woman) and racist (Turei has Maori ancestry with the implication that this is necessary for real knowledge of Maori and this is rquired in a Prime Minister). Even an insect can see this is a racist argument just as it would be to say Key would be a better PM because he is male and because his white genetics better suit him to head a Western country (I don’t say that and neither does anyone else I know of; but that’s the sexist/racist structure of the Greenfly argument.)
Greenfly, while you are on your white Uncle Tom trip can you please explain why the Green party doesn’t change it’s title to incorporate the Maori word for Green, and why it’s web site isn’t fully translated into Te Reo? Why don’t the Greens perform a haka as well as folk dance? Why the Green Party has not issued its policy on on protecting taniwha?
And in your personal views, Greenfly have you considered the suggestion (I don’t share it) once and possibly still put around by some that Maori are the lost tribe of Israel? If that were widely believed, would the Greens accord Key Maori status (as the son of a Jewish lady).
And as for putting Norman’s language skills against Key’s, you are in a wackybacky trance Greenfly. The brain of a top international currency trader against that of a leftist Ishmael of Aussie politics? Key wins hands down.
Give my regards to Gaia when you next burn your incense Greenfly.
Who do you believe? Barfoot and Thomsons saying house prices have only increased marginally in the last 10 years, or Don Brash who says house prices are 6 times annual salary while historically they have been 3 times salary (indicating a 50% drop is in order)?
I think we are due another 30% drop , at least. Whether this is through years of low growth, or actual drops it doesn’t matter. Or have we screwed ourselves such that we put every discretionary dollar into housing.
Jack5, slightlyrightly and Lofty
I appreciate your comments. My proposal re Metiria for PM was tongue in cheek in the hope that you might like to throw ideas around. Lofty, I’m not what you think I am. Jack – your sexist, racist angle is wrong, see tongue in ..
February 25th, 2009 at 8:51 am
The day keeps getting better! Now the cricket tour to Zimbabwe has been postponed to next year without the government having to take any action.
http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2009/02/zimbabwe-tour-postponed.html
February 25th, 2009 at 8:53 am
How can it be that a man who aspired, for years and years, to be Prime Minister of New Zealand,
never learned to speak a word of Maori language or even pronounce Maori words correctly? Is that wilful neglect or just ignorance?
[DPF: I presume Phil Goff never had the time as he was too busy as a Minister]
February 25th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Dear greenfly…..how droll……..yawn
A droll troll…..
February 25th, 2009 at 8:59 am
There is an interesting poll on the Herald Website this morning.
`Can women read maps’.
Currently running at 50/50 after 270 votes.
February 25th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Greenfly – neither.
It is just that until he entered Parliament the Maori Language was of no use to him whatsoever.
February 25th, 2009 at 9:01 am
greenfly – that’s not a very nice way to talk about Phil Goff
February 25th, 2009 at 9:07 am
`Can women read maps’. – A sergeant was teaching his soldiers map reading and said that one of the greatest hazards the soldiers would come across is a second lieutenant with a map.
February 25th, 2009 at 9:18 am
Interesting development in the matter of Obama’s persistent refusal to allow the public to view his original birth certificate-
http://www.wnd.com/static/89837.html
February 25th, 2009 at 9:30 am
Interesting also, the BEA (French version of the NTSB or CAA Crash Investigation Authority) report on the Air NZ crash in Perpignon last year (http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2008/d-la081127ea/pdf/d-la081127ea.pdf).
Bearing in mind that this is an initial report only and not conclusive, it says that there is confusion as to what sort of checks are made on these sorts of flights and the difference between European standards and ours. What is also evident, is the state of confusion on board that existed between the German captain (also the Pilot-in-Command) and the Air NZ captain who was asking for checks to be done that the German pilot wasn’t prepared for as they are not a regular part of his flight operations. While not expressly asked either but implied is why a test such as a low speed test was done at such a low altitude.
Not to be a harbinger here but look for some measure of blame from the BEA to be leveled at the ANZ Captain in the full report to come.
This is just me reading between the lines but read it yourselves and see what you think. It will be interesting to see the repercussions of such if it comes to pass as I have said.
February 25th, 2009 at 9:41 am
Goff is monolingual as well? That’s just as bad. My question is a genuine one (and this is a ‘general debate thread). How can anyone hoping to hold a high office in New Zealand not upskill themselves by learning to speak at least some Maori language? It’s a disgrace, I reckon.
February 25th, 2009 at 9:46 am
David your reply to the green insect (known to distribute infectious deseases) has really got my day off to a good start. Thanks. pdm, I doubt the language in question will ever be any practical use to anyone, for anything.
February 25th, 2009 at 9:50 am
green, why would anyone bother to learn a language that is of no earthly use? Are you also going to demand everyone learn sign language as well?
February 25th, 2009 at 9:52 am
Greenfly: Its only a disgrace as far as the politics of the far left are concerned. For the rest of us, we don’t really give a shit provided he does a good job of leading the country.
Also, Bolding damning lines in you random outbursts without providing links is tiresome.
February 25th, 2009 at 9:53 am
Greenfly …. you might think that with the worlds economy going pear shaped John, Bill, Phil, Annette, Rodney, Peter, Jim, Jeanette and Wussel have better things to do.
Sorry, got that wrong didn’t I. In the all inclusive, all at sea, completely irrelevant Green Party, mastery of Te Reo takes precidence over competence.
February 25th, 2009 at 9:54 am
Question.
Do most people in NZ know that the male co-leader of the greens is not a kiwi at all and is merely a journeyman politician plying his trade accross the world?
February 25th, 2009 at 9:56 am
greenfly said “Goff is monolingual as well? That’s just as bad. My question is a genuine one (and this is a ‘general debate thread). How can anyone hoping to hold a high office in New Zealand not upskill themselves by learning to speak at least some Maori language? It’s a disgrace, I reckon.”
greenfly – so on that basis, you’d be equally scathing about any MP who has not learned sign language, given that it is an official language as well.
February 25th, 2009 at 9:57 am
Greenfly … I have some sympathy for your point of view that it’d be good for senior politicians in New Zealand to be able to hold their own in Maori.
But personally, I’m more concerned that we get the best person for the job, in terms of their vision, leadership and ability to grow the country (in lots of dimensions … financially, socially etc). Given a choice between, say, John Key as PM or Parekura Horomia, it’s pretty hard to say “Hey, let’s go with Parekura because he can te reo”.
The job of PM has more important needs than just being able to speak Maori.
February 25th, 2009 at 10:00 am
Dear greenfly I repeat…..how droll……..yawn
A droll troll…..
There is nothing genuine about you greenfly, you are what I call a gardener, in that you sow seeds of dissention, and hope a few of them germinate, what you fail to realise that the majority of Kiwiblog readers and contributors are well read, thinking individuals, who see through people like you and toad and redbaiter etc, you really should put your very limited talents to work where you may reap a crop of dependants e.g the standard, where you may well garner 1 or 2 young not yet fully life developed school kids.
Like I said a droll troll………………
I guess when people like me respond to your inane comments you get a little stiffy on, or a wide on?
If I have made your day by you getting the reaction you required, it is my pleasure.
February 25th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Redbaiter:
“Interesting development in the matter of Obama’s persistent refusal to allow the public to view his original birth certificate-
http://www.wnd.com/static/89837.html”
Of course, if this is to be regarded as valid evidence of something (to wit, the invalidity of Obama’s presidency), then the following also must be evidence of something (to wit, the illegality of the invasion of Iraq). Right, RB? Or do dissenting US soldiers only count when they are supporting crusades you happen to like?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article612898.ece
” One Toronto lawyer, Jeffry House, has represented at least 20 deserters from Iraq in the Canadian courts; he is himself a conscientious objector, having refused to fight in the Vietnam war – along with 50,000 others, at the peak of the conflict. He estimates that 200 troops have already gone underground in Canada since the war in Iraq began.”
February 25th, 2009 at 10:18 am
“Right, RB?”
Deal with your own strawmen dickwad.
February 25th, 2009 at 10:21 am
MyNameIsJack said: why would anyone bother to learn a language that is of no earthly use?
Try saying that in the Te Araroa pub!
February 25th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Virtualmark – we are all lucky that greenfly’s criteria for PM does not include `pie eating’.
Parekura could be PM for life (lol).
Greenfly on a more serious note what are you going to do about the doctoring of photos. of Bradford. Hardly ethical I would have thought.
February 25th, 2009 at 10:32 am
RB:
“Deal with your own strawmen dickwad.”
Goodness me! RB ducking a challenge. Must be one of his off days.
February 25th, 2009 at 10:41 am
toad (767) Vote: 0 2 Says:
February 25th, 2009 at 10:21 am
MyNameIsJack said: why would anyone bother to learn a language that is of no earthly use?
Try saying that in the Te Araroa pub!
Why? Would I get bashed? Do you support this arrogant, violent nature of the maori?
February 25th, 2009 at 10:44 am
A very good question pdm,
John Tamahere remarked that Bradford didn’t look that good 20 years ago on a good day.
So true, but just another example of disengenuous information, from the communist party.
February 25th, 2009 at 10:44 am
“Would I get bashed?”
Ear bashed, MNIJ. In te reo. And this would make you feel uncomfortable. You see, we care for each other’s feelings here at Kiwiblog, and wouldn’t want you to feel bad.
February 25th, 2009 at 10:56 am
My question still is; why didn’t Key (or any would be politician) at least become familiar with the language of the treaty partner? Surely, thinking ahead, a person wishing to lead the country would want to have that skill? I know Bill English has worked to learn to korero and I admire him for that. He sees that it is more than a courtesy to have some ability and familiarity with te reo when interacting with such an important sector of New Zealand society. Key though, did nothing in preparation. I’m not suggesting that he do it now (many of you are pointing out that there are more pressing matters) I’m aking why he neglected to attend to it while he was developing his prime ministerial skills. I believe it reveals a great lack in his abilities, understanding and committment to the job he now holds.
lofty – I have no desire to pleasure you. My thoughts are genuine.
February 25th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Inventory2 – no. I think it is more important to be able to understand and speak some Maori language, than it is to be able to sign. Signing would be useful, but the instances of a prime minister attending events where most attendees are deaf is somewhat less than where the gathering is Maori. Why right wing commentators bristle at the idea of familiarity with maori language never fails to interest me. Most become very defensive and dismissive. This is not the case in ‘other circles’. Tino rereke tena.
February 25th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Grenfly – languages don’t always come easily to everyone. I personally don’t care if Key can speak Maori or not. He has a translator for that if he needs it.
February 25th, 2009 at 11:45 am
greenfly
Do you really think that the ability to speak Maori is vital for a politician?
February 25th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Greenfly’s devious questions on Te Reo reflect the melon greens’ pathetic attempts to win Maori support against the Maori Party, Labour, and National.
Knowing Maori language is no more a requirement for being an NZ political leader than knowing how to fire up a bong or roll a marijuana cigarette is a requirement for being a Green leader. Or for having to folk dance to be a Green member. Is knowledge of Maori, or acquaintance with Maori, a requirement for being a Green member? It’s as relevant to them as being able to rain dance or keep clean on 2 litres of water a day?
And who would agree on what was an adequate acquaintance with Maori language?
THe Greens are scratching like their beloved hens for relevance after the latest election. THey locked themselves out and are struggling.
But smarter Greens everywhere must be aware that in tough economic times, Maslow’s order of wants comes into play and the irrational fears Greens decline in importance on the “fears/concerns/needs” ladder. Shelter, food, clothes, warmth take priority again.
More people will recognise the Greens’ Nature neo-mysticism as the dope-induced ravings of what is no more than a flaky sect.
February 25th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
Crissake, does no one use derris dust anymore?
February 25th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Hey greenfly did you have a DDT shower this morning?
February 25th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Greenfly how fucking fluent was Helen? How do you say “haters and wreckers” in Te Reo? And how fucking fluent are the Green caucus? Why don’t you just fuck off?
February 25th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Perfect Murray, couldn’t have put it better myself
February 25th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Virtualmark, thanks for this reply on an earlier thread, I’ve only just got to it.
virtualmark (605) Vote: 1 0 Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
“PhilBest … I agree with the general idea that derivatives markets are ordinarily better predictors of economic direction than stock markets are.
But I’d also say that a lot of the behaviour on both markets isn’t strictly rational (ie accurate), hence the term “bubble”. And I think a **lot** of the recent trading on both derivative and stock markets (ie the prices being pushed down) is due to forced selling from margin calls, portfolio rebalancing, needing to fund withdrawals etc, rather than being strictly rational views of what people think the future holds.
Personally, I think the dodgy loans at the heart of this financial crisis are about the same % of USA GDP that the savings & loans collapse was back in the 1980s. What’s different this time is that the underlying bubble affects Europe and (to a lesser extent) Asia too…..”
Virtualmark, do you not suspect that some very clever operators like George Soros have not in fact been making buckets of money on the basis of strictly rational and much more astute analysis of what the future holds, in effect profiting from the mass ignorance that infests everyone else from central bankers down?
Have you read any estimates of the total size of the derivatives market in the world? Do you think that the amount of the selling that you say is “forced”, is bigger or lesser than the deliberate operations of clever uber-investors?
Regarding the S&L crisis back in the 1980′s, there was nothing like the sort of housing price bubble that there has been today. As Peter Schiff keeps saying, “….this is not just about “sub-prime”…..this is the whole mortgage market….”
Take a look at the graph of the history of house prices in the USA kindly reproduced on THIS page:
http://financialsense.com/editorials/quinn/2009/0218.html
When you say that the underlying bubble affects Europe too, you are again seriously understating the case. Many countries in Europe have had a domestic housing bubble that is worse than the US one, and they created it for themselves through their own domestic policies. We in NZ, and also the Aussies, have what are among the world’s worst ones, too.
Also “what’s different this time”, compared to earlier bubbles and crashes (Dotcom, sharemarket, etc), is the enormous extent to which the entire population of each country has taken on debt; NZ being the second worst in the world after Iceland in this respect, and considerably worse than the USA.
February 25th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
I would appreciate some quantification of your statement that key did “nothing”. I hear what you are saying. However, Key is a very new politician, and just perhaps he had other more pressing things to learn.
After all, unlike Clark, Key hasn’t had 28 years as an MP to hone his Te Reo….
February 25th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
sensafine – “Key hasn’t had 28 years as an MP to hone his Te Reo”
Granted, but he’s been a New Zealander hankering after the top job for years and years. Did he not think ahead?
Murray M – how fluent is the Green caucus – I’ll wager they’re more fluent over all, than any other (bar the Maori Party
Lofty – “couldn’t have put it better myself” – true, you couldn’t
goodgod and dad (you’re back!) I’ve developed resistance.
Jack5 – think Jack, think! You can do it!
February 25th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
greenfly you can wager all you want, but that’s not the fucking point. Don’t have a go at Key over something totally irrelevent when a good number of the lot you support probably wouldn’t pass Te Reo 101.
February 25th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
PhilBest … while I respect George Soros acumen I’d also point out that other professional investors aren’t exactly dumb either. I don’t see malicious hands at work manipulating share prices or derivative prices etc. And I don’t see mass ignorance either.
There has been a lot of forced selling going on in the last 6 months, particularly due to funds having to sell assets to meet their clients’ demands to withdraw their money and from margin calls. A few people like George Soros, for example, are fortunate in having the luxury of being able to take the counter-cyclical view and buy up assets at this time. Most funds aren’t able to do that.
I think it’s important to separate derivatives from their underlying asset. It’s possible for a whole lot of derivatives to quickly become worthless. But that doesn’t have any real effect on the underlying. Just because a bunch of people lose their shirts on Boeing options or Nasdaq futures doesn’t mean that Boeing or the Nasdaq is threatened. It might make a bunch of hedge funds returns look pretty ill, which in turn does affect people’s wealth, but it doesn’t have a direct effect on the underlying real economy. It’s pretty much the same as saying that if DPF backs the wrong choice on iPredict about Phil Goff getting rolled then DPF loses some money, but it has absolutely no influence on when Labour does eventually stick the knife into Phil.
Re the relative size & severity of this crisis vs others … last figures I saw suggested that about US$700 billion of US mortgages were impaired. Even if all those mortgages totally defaulted, and even if the holders then couldn’t get anything for the underlying houses (remember, the mortgages are secured against property) then that’s less than 5% of the USA’s annual GDP. That’s the same size as the S&L crisis in the 1980s.
Sure, there’s been a housing price bubble. And before that there was a dot com price bubble. And before that there were tulip bubbles. And the Scots still have some South Seas schemes they could sell you shares in. In every expansion, a different sector generates the bubble that causes the eventual recession. This time it was the financial services and housing industries and this time it was partly debt funded. But the nature of debt is that it gets serviced or it takes the assets away. The losses get sheeted home to the equity-holder (aka homeowner). But in a lot of ways that equity is paper wealth. That’s not to diminish the problems many home owners face. But the thing is, once they put their equity in their house it’s fairly locked away and it typically only ever comes out again when they switch to another house. Which has also dropped in value, so their relative purchasing power hasn’t drastically changed.
February 25th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Living overseas for most of that time. But thats really irrelevant. You cant even spell Italian when it’s right in front of your face. And yet you lambast other folk for being unfamiliar with a tongue that is not native to them.
Well done!
February 25th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Goodness, beligerent buggers those Murrays. Must be the highland blood and low bullshit threashold.
February 25th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
PhilBest … just found the info I was looking for on the Savings & Loans crisis in the 1980s. The impaired assets were mostly commercial real estate, and they represented about 8% to 10% of US GDP at the time. Not surprisingly, commercial real estate values plummeted in the late 1980s and early 1990s and took about 10 years for them to recover.
February 25th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Hey Murray, do people sometimes spell your name Murrey, or Murry?
February 25th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Only if they want to piss me off.
February 25th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Redbaiter Like you I am puzzled as to why Barry wont let us see his birth certificate He doesnt seem to understand that in the 2009 paradigm of governance ” Trust me I know what Im doing “or “Trust me Ive seen the BC and its kosher” dont cut the mustard.
Ggod Governance 2009 style is all about transpernacey and disclosure All of it.
Fact that Barry wont show us just makes people like me who like good clean governance a tad nervous.
Alas Ive seen in the past with NFPs when its turned out a person wasnt eligible for election or appointment because someone didnt ask the right question or look at the right documents until it was all too late.
Wouldnt it be a scream if it turned out that everyone including Barry has assumed it was all Ok until it was too late and then when they did look at the BC Shucks What the F….. are we going to do now.
Could this be the reason
February 25th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Greenfly buzzed at 12.55: “Murray M – how fluent is the Green caucus – I’ll wager they’re more fluent over all, than any other (bar the Maori Party)….”
Respectfully, Greenfly I would like point out your typo. In your post, you wrote “fluent” for “effluent”.
Concentrate, you can do it.
February 25th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Greenfly, If you would like to provide a list of politicians who are fluent in Maori that you would like to see as PM, I would be happy to see it.
I would also happily debate the merits of each being PM with you.
For the record however, Parekura Horomia would be an embarrassment in the job. Hone Harawira, though he has my respect as a man of principle, would also be ill suited. Pita Sharples is a great representative for his people, but the maori party will never be in the position to provide a person who could be PM.
A maori Prime Minister is a possibility, but not from the current parliament I would think.
February 25th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
senzafine – lambast! Hah! Gentle chider, that’s me. As for your justification for Key’s lack of familiarity with Maori language – ‘Living overseas for most of that time’ That’s supposed to comfort those who have doubts about his suitability for a leading role in this country? He’s been away a long time? Sheesh!
Jack5 – playing with words eh Jack! Careful you don’t scald yourself.
“Greenfly’s devious questions on Te Reo” devious! Straight as a die, me.
February 25th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
slightly – I’ve not suggesting fluency, just respectful familiarity. I can see, in my inner insect mind’s eye, a New Zealand Prime Minister who can speak both English and Maori. Metiria Turei for Pirimia!
February 25th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
ha ha ha..that is funny greenfly
February 25th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Anyone seen John Key’s birth certificate? Usually reliable sources have suggested that he is really an Australian born in Wagga Wagga, real name Bazza Mackenzie, brought here by Crosby Textor as a spare in case Brash failed. It would certainly explain his unfamiliarity with both official languages of NZ.
February 25th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
I don’t see the point of hassling either Helen Clark or John Key for their accents. They’re both Kiwi accents – different varieties, and stronger than many others.
February 25th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Joe Dzug – thanks Joe! Levity! Vitriol free.
Big Bro – and thanks to you as well. I’m always invigorated by your support
Are we going to debate as you suggest, Slightlyrightly? Hope so.
February 25th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
pdm says:
” … what are you going to do about the doctoring of photos. of Bradford. Hardly ethical I would have thought.”
Well pdm, unethical perhaps, but entirely necessary nevertheless and in fact, justifiable on grounds pertaining to public mental health and wellbeing.
February 25th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Virtualmark, thanks for the interesting discussion. But if things are really so similar now in the USA, to the old S&L crisis, why such huge bailouts? I said THIS on an earlier thread:
The “investment” game that has gone down in the last few years, has been like this. “Wall Street” and the investment industry all over the world, by and large, went along with the politicians beliefs that the good times were a result of good management, and were real and could be relied on. In a mass failure of imagination, from first home buyers to speculators to mortgage lenders to investors, huge financial positions were taken based on the assumption that house prices could keep going up forever and debt could keep expanding forever, regardless of how far behind incomes and production were left.
The worst over-reach occurred in the selling of derivatives, which bluntly speaking, turned into bets on the financial situation. If someone in the financial industry was gambling on the good times continuing to roll, they sold derivatives, and earned themselves fat fees in the process. This underpinned a lot of the huge profits that were being made by some. Warning lights should have been flashing all over the place, about the fact that there was so much money being willingly put down on the table by BUYERS of derivatives, and in similar positioning that stood to benefit in the event of a downturn. These people were right, and the flow of profits has reversed and multiplied many times, from the institutions who were selling these derivatives, to those who were buying them.
There is a fundamental assumption about the US financial sector “dragging down Europe and the rest of the world” because of their having invested in toxic mortgage-based securities. But this completely ignores the fact that the worst damage to the US financial sector has occurred because of the huge payouts they have had to make against derivatives. The holders of these derivatives, whether in Europe or wherever, are being fabulously enriched. Many buyers of the toxic securities hedged by buying such derivatives, and are in fact in a healthy position.
And in so far as actual destruction of wealth in crashing asset values is taking place, this has everything to do with each nations monetary and fiscal mismanagement over the last decade or two and little to do with the positions taken by the various operators in the financial markets, who were merely reading the conditions correctly or incorrectly as the case may be. And those who were reading it incorrectly were virtually joined at the hip to the politicians and central bankers that were setting up the crisis. Actually, exactly the same sequence of events as has occurred in the USA, has occurred in the UK and Europe; they too have had house price bubbles, ballooning private debt, and the development of a massive financial casino over the resulting false boom.
The world badly needs to work out who has gained and what they are doing with their new wealth, because it is pointless continuing to pour taxpayers money into a financial sector where there are huge transfers of wealth going on. It is pointless propping up failing institutions out of which huge amounts of money are flowing, when the necessary recapitalisation of the whole finance sector is already within the power of the clever operators who have gained so much. Their money must be sitting somewhere, or being used for something. This is a separate issue to the destruction of wealth that has occurred in the collapse of the world’s housing and mortgage bubbles.
February 25th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
So in a way, I agree with you, Virtualmark, that the underlying crisis shouldn’t be as bad as the size of the rapidly vanishing bailout money seems to indicate. My suspicion is that this bailout money is flowing out as fast as it is flowing in, and some uber-investors are raking it in at the expense of the taxpayer and the future generations who will be picking up the tab for all the borrowed and printed money.
February 25th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Greenfly, I put it to you that John Key has shown far more respect to Maori than any prime minister of recent times. So he cannot speak Te Reo. However, he has entered into an agreement with the elected representatives of maori in a far more inclusive way than Labour has done, and he did not have to.
He has shown far more willingness to be inclusive, and open to debate on issues than predecessors. He has also issued a challenge to Maori on specific issues, for example, he is happy to fly a maori flag, as soon as all maori agree to a flag.
Maori are being treated as equals by our PM. Would Maori rather be treated as equals by someone who can communicate, but not in their language? Or would Maori rather be treated with disdain?
February 25th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Greenfly,
I ask with genuine desire for knowledge, just like you eh!
Why are you here??????
Please tell us all why you contribute (sic) to this blog
February 25th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
slightlyrightly – you put it to me and I’ve no argument with what you say. I can’t and don’t speak for Maori (though I can speak in Maori (apea) but would venture to say that in a great many instances they would prefer to hear their language being used, and used well. Nobody likes to be treated with disdain, slightlyrightly! Key is lacking in his education. He would be a better PM if he was able to korero Maori, ne ra? Now, Metiria for PM? You are happy to debate still?
February 25th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
lofty – I’m here for the sake of democracy (at least, that’s why I believe I’m here – plus, the money’s really good !)
Can I ask you a question? What is it about my being here that irritates you?
February 25th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
thedavincimode – agreed.
A true to life photo of Bradford would be guaranteed to `scare the horses’.
Oops forgot – Greenfly and his ilk ride on Cullens trainset these days don’t they. I have heard they want to go back to steam trains so they can put the `grass’ in with the coal.
February 25th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Metiria?
It may be my upbringing, but how does a radical anarcho-feminist fit into the role of Prime Minister? Mr Key has shown himself to listen to those who are different in opinion to him. Would we get the same from Ms Turei?
She states that “My personal political journey has led me to the reasonable conclusion that the present state has no legitimacy”
Which leads to the reasonable question, what sort of PM would she be, and how would a person of her standing and viewpoint get into the role in the first place, seeing as the democracy we have in NZ would not elect a person such as her?
February 25th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
PhilBest … “if things are really so similar now in the USA, to the old S&L crisis, why such huge bailouts?”
You forget, that the Federal Government bailed out the S&Ls too, and made a tidy profit on the deal. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_Trust_Corporation
When the recent bailout was first touted it was talked about in the same basic terms. Basically the Feds would create a new Resolution Trust Corp, use it to buy up all and any dodgy mortgage-backed securities at a fixed rate of, say, 50 cents in the dollar. Then the Resolution Trust Corp would break the securities back out into their individual mortgages, work out which were okay and which were impaired, reparcel the okay ones up and resell them, and work out the impaired ones.
More recently both administrations have veered a little away from that. I think because initially the problem was to do with dodgy mortgages (the “sub-prime problem”, which first came to prominence in late-2007) but then that got overtaken by a banking liquidity crisis (didn’t get a catchy name, but this was where the banks stopped lending to each other, which really threatened the financial systems stability). So I think a lot of the bail-out focus moved to ensuring there was overt backing for each bank … just like the Nats have done with their wholesale banking guarantee.
February 25th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
greenfly – you might have a shred of validity in your arguments until you make such statements as “Meteria for PM” – t’aint going to happen in my lifetime, nor those of my children!
BTW – I seem to recall Key telling an interviewer earlier in the year that he would like to learn te reo Maori. With friends such as Dr Pita Sharples, who knows – he might be able to kai korero in no time!
February 25th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
PhilBest, I broadly agree with you that the current crisis can be pinned on far more than just Wall St. Sure, there’s a lot of schadenfreude in the big swinging dicks of Wall St getting castrated. It makes good newspaper headlines to pin the problems on Goldman Sachs, except Goldies don’t write mortgages.
The real problem has been all those nice people at dinner parties drunk on property speculation and talking about buying 2-3 investment properties. At prices that the rental yield just simply couldn’t justify. They were aided and abetted by the high street banks, who all lined up to shovel mortgages at those nice people as fast as possible, and as is now clear didn’t in all cases take enough care about ensuring the mortgage was serviceable in a downturn.
Wall St’s role was to package up lots of those (American) mortgages and sell them as an investment product. That wasn’t a bad thing as such, but it’s just that grouping thousands of mortgages together like that made it so much harder to clearly see which individual mortgages were okay and which were in trouble. So without that clarity everyone took the conservative view that all of the mortgages were bad, and so they stopped lending against those assets. So yes, Wall St is responsible for the problems that crashed inter-bank lending.
But Mums & Dads are responsible for the big old debt hangover that we have today.
February 25th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Can Russell Norman speak maori? Because when the sea rises 100 m he is a shoe in for Prime Minister. So I hope he can. I note Greenfly doesnt tell us or hold him up as an example. Which is probably fair enough as Norman, afterall, is an Australian. Does he speak Aboriginal? No?, I guess thats why hes here.
Lucky us.
And Greenfly, insects dont have “minds” which you demonstrate every day.
February 25th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
greenfly is from the utopian nest of misfits.
February 25th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
PhilBest … I’d caution against seeing derivatives as the bogeyman. My experience is that the people railing against derivatives don’t fully understand how they’re used. I think it’s important to keep in mind a few things:
First, a derivative does not directly affect the underlying asset. Just because the derivatives become worthless doesn’t mean the underlying company/commodity has changed value at all.
Second, I’d caution against the idea that “the value of all the derivatives of, say, Microsoft, is worth far more than the value of all Microsoft’s shares, so how can all the derivatives ever be honoured”. The straightforward answer is that they are never expected to all be honoured. Many of them will end up with zero values.
Third, remember that while investors have overall payed billions for derivatives they paid that money to someone. The money didn’t disappear. It’s still in circulation. It’s just that some people made a bad bet and lost their money to someone else. Or, more sophisticated terms, they paid an insurance premium and didn’t need to claim.
There does seem to be a group of people who rail against derivatives and other complex financial stuff. They tend to be the same group that can’t get their head around floating currencies and want to return to the gold standard. It’s great conspiracy stuff, but their underlying economics are a bit soft.
February 25th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Isn’t Red Russel from Queensland? Where they spell “their” beer XXXX because no-one can spell beer?
February 25th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Greenfly, your argument is moot. Obivously he thought ahead, he became prime minister in his first attempt to gain the position. Perhaps if he had taken the time to learn the language, he wouldn’t have been able to position himself to become PM? In what current way is his lack of te Reo holding him back? So far he has achieved more with the Maori Party than any other government in power. Also, where is their proof that he can’t speak any te reo? I know plenty of speakers and they don’t just whip it out as a party trick, they use it when required/appropriate.
Also, he aha te kupu apea?
February 25th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
#PhilBest
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant?currentPage=all
February 25th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
labrator – perhaps. Key can’t korero. Of course Key ‘thought ahead’. My question is (still is) why didn’t he think a reasonable grasp of te reo tuturu was important enough to give some time to. You reckon he can? You reckon he ought to be able to? I do. Labrator – he ‘kiore i roto i te taiwhanga putaiao’ koe?
Captain Crab – I’d put Russel Norman’s language skills up against Key’s anytime.
As to what you say insects don’t have – I don’t mind.
Inventory2 – Key might (should) be learning now. Why did he wait til now? His heart wasn’t in it. He didn’t care to learn.
I’m dissapointed that you won’t honour your offer to debate. You sure faded fast!
February 25th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
Inv2 – apologies for the last nonsensical sentence.
slightlyrighty – yes, it is your upbringing. Just as many New Zealanders find someone with Key’s money-focused background entirely innapropriate as a leader in charge of the fate of people , there will be those who would be uncomfortable with what the see as ‘the wrong sort of background’ in Metiria. You would have to ‘look at the person’ in real time. Metiria is a very astute, very balanced woman. She has several advantages over Key: she’s a she – she knows woman’s affairs as well as any (woman) Key can’t. She has Maori ancestry and real knowledge of the ao Maori. Key hasn’t. Metiria has another tremendous advantage over Key – she understands and identifies with the Greens
These are just a few points in favour of Metiria for PM. There are others I can outline, but I’ll wait to see if you have the interest in debating further.
February 25th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
greenfly … doesn’t the idea of talking about an ex-anarchist’s suitability to be PM strike even the Greens as too much like the lunatics running the asylum???
February 25th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Greenfly, I am happy to tell you what irritates me about you,
you are disingenuous, end of story, you say you are genuine, but your posts say otherwise.
I have said it before and I will say it again, I have walked and talked your talk, grew up, found my independence, started to live a little, employed 26 wonderful people, fell in love with the benefits of being an employer, learn’t to care for my fellow humans, learn’t to care for my earth, you are a mischief maker of no consequence.
Thats what irritates me about you, go and start your own blog that no one will visit.
Oh! thats why you are here, because this is where the crowd gathers.
Yes you irritate me, because you are a juvenile know nothing, when you have seen, done, experienced all that I have ( I am convinced you most certainly have not) then I may prick an ear.
Until then bye
February 25th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Greenfly, you continue to see Key as being money focused. You assume that Key, coming from the background that he has, has no business being in charge of the fate of people.
From where do you derive that assumption?
Are you possibly guilty of precisely the same sort of prejudices that you have tried to highlight in me? Where does your distrust in the ‘stereotypical’ tory politician come from? I’d really like to know that one.
Key is not Maori, he is not a woman. Metiria (Why the constant use of her first name anyway?) is not a man, she is not Pakeha.
By your reasoning the ideal Prime Minister would be some sort of bi-racial hermaphrodite. The fact is that no person can be all things to all people. But having the ‘correct’ racial makeup or the ‘correct’ gender is no way to determine who would or should lead a government.
Neither gender or ethnicity was a factor in the electing of John Key. His Gender and linguistic strengths or weaknesses are obviously of some concern to you. Well, I have more faith over John Key’s ability in the areas we need him to be able to be proficient in at this time. In these areas he seems to be performing very well, and I take the fact that people such as you are participating in forums such as these saying “Key doesn’t speak any Maori, we would expect that from a Prime minister” as further proof that he is working well where we need him.
February 25th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
Greenfly posted at 8.25pm:”She(Metiria Turei) has several advantages over Key: she’s a she – she knows woman’s affairs as well as any (woman) Key can’t. She has Maori ancestry and real knowledge of the ao Maori. Key hasn’t.”
Greenfly your argument is sexist (Turei would be a better PM than Key because she’s a woman) and racist (Turei has Maori ancestry with the implication that this is necessary for real knowledge of Maori and this is rquired in a Prime Minister). Even an insect can see this is a racist argument just as it would be to say Key would be a better PM because he is male and because his white genetics better suit him to head a Western country (I don’t say that and neither does anyone else I know of; but that’s the sexist/racist structure of the Greenfly argument.)
Greenfly, while you are on your white Uncle Tom trip can you please explain why the Green party doesn’t change it’s title to incorporate the Maori word for Green, and why it’s web site isn’t fully translated into Te Reo? Why don’t the Greens perform a haka as well as folk dance? Why the Green Party has not issued its policy on on protecting taniwha?
And in your personal views, Greenfly have you considered the suggestion (I don’t share it) once and possibly still put around by some that Maori are the lost tribe of Israel? If that were widely believed, would the Greens accord Key Maori status (as the son of a Jewish lady).
And as for putting Norman’s language skills against Key’s, you are in a wackybacky trance Greenfly. The brain of a top international currency trader against that of a leftist Ishmael of Aussie politics? Key wins hands down.
Give my regards to Gaia when you next burn your incense Greenfly.
February 26th, 2009 at 12:34 am
How is the Rugby World Cup preparation going? Is New Zealand ready to put on a show?
February 26th, 2009 at 7:40 am
Who do you believe? Barfoot and Thomsons saying house prices have only increased marginally in the last 10 years, or Don Brash who says house prices are 6 times annual salary while historically they have been 3 times salary (indicating a 50% drop is in order)?
I think we are due another 30% drop , at least. Whether this is through years of low growth, or actual drops it doesn’t matter. Or have we screwed ourselves such that we put every discretionary dollar into housing.
February 26th, 2009 at 8:29 am
Jack5, slightlyrightly and Lofty
I appreciate your comments. My proposal re Metiria for PM was tongue in cheek in the hope that you might like to throw ideas around. Lofty, I’m not what you think I am. Jack – your sexist, racist angle is wrong, see tongue in ..