McCarten loves Key

February 8th, 2009 at 5:51 am by David Farrar

Okay, not quite loves John, but falls over himself with praise for his relationship with Maori:

Key’s behaviour at the Te Tii Marae on Thursday has shown New Zealand and its relationship with Maori has changed forever. The rush at him by a couple of individuals was also an opportunity for him. The embarrassment of his hosts was expected, as I’m sure they were when Clark and Brash were attacked.

But it seems Key really is different. He brushed off the incident, which you have to give him points for.

But he also promised Nga Puhi that the attack hadn’t put him off and that he’ll be back next year and the next and the next. It was brave, but very smart, too.

That one statement must have Labour freaking out. Maybe, just maybe, Key really is genuine when he says he wants to build a new relationship with Maori.

His inclusion of the Maori Party in his government when he didn’t have to, was clever politics.

But he genuinely seems to want to make it work. There seems to be a friendship between him and Maori Party co-leader Pita Sharples.

Even Key’s public statement that he supports having a Maori flag flown on , not just on the Auckland Harbour Bridge, but on Government buildings, too, was astonishing. A Labour leader wouldn’t have ever dared to say that. Key has promised to fly a Maori flag next year.

Our Waitangi Day has always been marred by protest for good reason. Our national holiday has become an embarrassment to most New Zealanders.

It’s taken a white boy from Christchurch who has spent most of his adult life overseas to finally give us hope that just maybe we can finally be proud of our national day.

For our sake I hope he can. He’s made a great start.

High praise from McCarten.

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57 Responses to “McCarten loves Key”

  1. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Hear Hear!

    JK is different, and Clark and that Dr chap will be spewing.

    Phil In will no doubt be snidey about the whole affair. He is JK’s best PR person at the moment. Marvellous.

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  2. dimmocrazy (286 comments) says:

    Good relationship building there by JK. Let’s hope he has the smarts to keep that up while first focussing relatively small issues (like this, the flag and the omission of the ambiguous RMA changes) so the current ‘understanding and respect’ can be gradually developed in something more akin to a genuine partnership, which may then provide a basis of trust and openness to tackle the real large issues (such as role of treaty in constitutional development and F&S). It is about time.

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  3. goodgod (1,348 comments) says:

    It’s taken a white boy from Christchurch who has spent most of his adult life overseas to finally give us hope that just maybe we can finally be proud of our national day.

    Racist, jealous, class hating, praise from McCarten? Shit the only thing he didn’t target is his jewish connection. Did you want to say: “…a white boy kike from the City foundered by the colonial english elite…”, McCarten? Fuck off McCarten you racist dribbling twat.

    Imagine this from a commentator:

    “It’s taken a brown boy from Northland who has spent most of his adult life in Kaeo on the dole to ….”

    Unacceptable. But it’s ok if maori are racist, because we live in liberal lefty wonderland and now it’s socially acceptable yippee.

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  4. kiwi in america (2,454 comments) says:

    Hmm never thought I’d ever read a piece like that from McCarten.

    Goodgod – I see your point but I also see McCarten’s. Labour and lefties like McCarten have always trumpetted the fact that only the left really truly appreciate what Maori are going through hence all their stupid programmes that have further enslaved them. It is refreshing when a known far left shill like McCarten sees the incredible political impact of the optics of Key’s various steps vis a vis Maori. Its as close to eating humble pie as we’ll get from Maaaaaatt so I’ll focus on that.

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  5. Richard Hurst (859 comments) says:

    Key simply did what every person does who is dealing with a difficult customer, grumpy client , awkward business deal or tricky tendering bid: He stayed polite, didn’t talk over people, didn’t lose his rag or throw a hissy fit, didn’t burst into tears and used please and thank you.
    Its not rocket science, its simply basic manners. Well done JK. Such a pity a certain former PM didn’t do the same.

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  6. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    C’mon, IMHO, there’s nothing to crow about in Key being praised by the extreme left McCarten, a zealot if ever there was one. When I read such garbage, it only confirms my opinion that Key is making a big mistake in giving the Maori separatists and supremacists the degree of recognition he has. Flying the “Maori” flag. Spit- what crap.

    Why doesn’t someone in the media ask Key what he thinks the Maori flag represents? It stands for Maori sovereignty Mr. Key, not one nation where all are equal regardless of race.

    ..and please, lets not forget that Key’s real purpose in arranging an alliance with the Maori Party was to dis-empower ACT.

    Key may be worthy of praise in some areas, but in sucking up to the Maori supremacist movement, the kind of movement that Marxists like McCarten have used as a stepping stone to power in so many other countries, he’s IMHO being a damn fool.

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  7. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    Redbaiter you are talking rubbish.

    The definition of a fool is someone who keeps doing the same things over and over again but expects a different result.

    Well John Key is NOT repeating the mistakes of the past by taking the same approach that has been tried over and over again and that has failed miserably.

    He is trying a new approach. And it just may work in bringing the two races closer together so we all can be equal regardless of race.

    Why the hell would he want to dis-empower Act? I dont believe it is a case of either/ or. You can have a good relationship with both if you work at it in a professional way with all of the coalition partners.

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  8. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Well John Key is NOT repeating the mistakes of the past by taking the same approach that has been tried over and over again and that has failed miserably.”

    Sorry. I don’t follow this refrain at all. Klark, in spite of her differences in some areas, sucked up to so called “maori” in the overall sense, and so is Key.

    Key brought these people into government thereby bestowing upon them mana, power, money and recognition they would otherwise not receive. If they had been left to waste away on the opposition benches, it would have been a big step towards their eventual demise.

    I believe Key would have scored a lot less votes from middle NZ if he had made public his intention to seek an alliance with the supremacists and racists that are the Maori Party. Its why I still believe Don Brash would make a better PM than the wishy washy Key.

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  9. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Lucy

    Sorry buddy but Red is right again, Key has slipped back into his best Neville Chamberlain mode, by kissing the backside’s of the apartheid party he is tacitly giving the green light for separatism and the continuation of the victim mentality.

    You say he is brining the two races “closer together” where is the evidence?, all Key is doing is giving ground to those who want to divide our nation and create two classes of Kiwi.

    We should never make the mistake of thinking that praise from McCarten is a good thing, rather that it should sound as a warning bell telling us that we (the VRWC) have gone off course.

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  10. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Lucy, I agree with red and bruv,
    you say “And it just may work in bringing the two races closer together so we all can be equal regardless of race.”
    really? – by giving even greater recognition to an already over catered for ethnic group is not going to bring greater equality. I think this is going to backfire on Key big time

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  11. mickysavage (786 comments) says:

    I approve of Key’s actions at Waitangi. They were symbolic rather than having substance but he was acting like a good leftie in advocating for an improved relationship between Maori and Pakeha. Just the sort of thing that Michael Savage and Norm Kirk did in the past.

    I hope that he continues in his “Labour lite” ways and continues to mimic the Labour Party. I hope also that he has put to the past the Don Brash iwi bashing actions, all designed to garner support amongst the more rabid amongst us.

    He will strike a problem at some stage. When the honeymoon is over his supporters will expect him to revert to type. They will want maori, gay and beneficiary bashing to become the norm. If he does not do it then they will wonder why they are supporting National.

    In the meantime Labour is planning and rebuilding and will be ready to go.

    Remind me which is the natural party of power?

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  12. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Key brought these people into government thereby bestowing upon them mana, power, money and recognition they would otherwise not receive.

    I agree, and that’s good.

    If they had been left to waste away on the opposition benches, it would have been a big step towards their eventual demise.

    No, it wouldn’t lead to their demise. It wouldn’t have had much of a negative effect since Key didn’t have to and if he hadn’t well, no-one was necessarily expecting it. The fact he did however when he didn’t have to, is a huge positive effect and extremely astute politics.

    I believe Key would have scored a lot less votes from middle NZ if he had made public his intention to seek an alliance with the supremacists and racists that are the Maori Party.

    Possibly from the redneck segment of the conservative base, but frankly, that’s a diminishing segment. I’m beginning to sense a trend in public opinion which is a dawning recognition amongst non-Maori that
    (a) Maori were not fairly treated in the past 120 years;
    (b) the treaty process is not and never can be a full settlement;
    (c) the fact it is not full doesn’t mean that, amongst Maori, it’s not final.

    Maori are now widely talking about moving on and this is a decision that comes from them, and it is through their grace and not because of the “generosity” of the settlement packages.

    The fact is that NZ is extremely lucky to have such a generous-spirited and intelligent indigenous population as we do. Maori rightly demand a voice in governance and a redress to past wrongs and that process is well down the track. The segments of Maoridom that continue to harbour ongoing bitterness are increasingly reducing and Maoridom itself will address those in its own way and in its own time.

    The very worst thing one could do as this process works through its natural course, is to do things that bring back the old ways and the old attitudes. This would abruptly disturb the emerging consensus amongst Maori and put us back decades.

    Key understands the flag is a symbolic act and costs us nothing – it means much more to Maori than it does to anyone else, except for the aforementioned redneck element. Secondly, he’s indicated that he understands Maori thinking by astutely turning the question back to them, by asking them to decide on which flag is the “Maori” flag. That is all that Maori have ever asked for, really. The right to determine their own destiny themselves – by themselves. I would not be at all surprised to learn that it was Peter Sharples who gave him that advice and it was the very best thing he could have done in this circumstance.

    The growing recognition that I sense amongst non-Maori is basically a recognition that one of the most important things to Maori is consultation. If Maori are genuinely consulted and they are given a genuine opportunity to make the decision one way or the other (i.e. they have the power to do so: e.g. by having full legal rights over the land); then Maori grievance disappears. It’s the fact they haven’t until recently been given that opportunity that’s their burning issue. The fortunate thing for we who are non-Maori is, that Maori are so generously spirited that in almost every case, they exercise generosity in those decisions.

    Provided we as a nation keep to those principles, we can consign the days of radical demands and racial conflict to the pages of history, where they belong.

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  13. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    What utterly nauseating patronising socialist racist crap.

    Leaving that aside, I say many voters supported Key on the basis that the Nationals wanted to govern alone, and not in alliance with any sub group, and especially a sub group who select themselves on race. By forming an alliance with the Maori party when he didn’t need to, Key showed contempt for the voters who supported him because they believed he would reject this kind of racism. For this betrayal, he will pay a price at the next election.

    You Reid, can label such voters “rednecks”, in yet another example of your dimwitted propensity for left wing propaganda over reason, but frankly, I think people who object to the racism of the supremacist Maori Party should be accorded praise, not scorn and misnomers.

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  14. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    What utterly nauseating patronising socialist racist crap.

    Any particular part, RB, or just all of it?

    You Reid, can label such voters “rednecks”, in yet another example of your dimwitted propensity for left wing propaganda over reason, but frankly, I think people who object to the racism of the supremacist Maori Party should be accorded praise, not scorn and misnomers.

    Indeed I do and I will continue to label them rednecks, RB. I number you amongst them. As a redneck, I’m not surprised you think about the Maori Party the way you do. Luckily, you’re in a minority. Thank goodness for the sake of the country.

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  15. mickysavage (786 comments) says:

    Redbaiter

    “I say many voters supported Key on the basis that the Nationals wanted to govern alone, and not in alliance with any sub group”

    SO they do believe they are born to rule!!

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  16. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    BB and Patrick. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. It happens. But remember it is wise to keep your friends close and your enemys closer.

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  17. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Thank goodness for the sake of the country.”

    Oh yeah, patriotism.

    Out of reason so quickly?

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  18. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Out of reason so quickly?

    All the reasons I need to establish my point were in my original 11:02, RB.

    Perhaps if you didn’t have your usual knee-jerk hysterically emotive reaction upon reading anything that challenges your red-neckery, you might have detected that already.

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  19. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    Oh and Redbaiter yes it may have been good if National could have governed alone given what a mess MMP turned into under the Labour Government but the fact is given the political system that was never going to happen.

    And yes I agree Maori have been over catered for in may ways however those ways have failed them as well as us.

    Allowances have been made for Maori that are quite frankly insulting. For example throwing money at them because they are Maori the insinuation being that they are not as smart as us and therefore not capable of looking after themselves.

    Excusing the increasing violence being perperated by Maori because they cant control themselves due to colonisation. What the hell does that mean?

    Letting a few radical Maori dictate the wants and needs of all of them.

    The list goes on and on.

    The point is if we want everyone to be equal then they have to be treated equally and not going into coalition with them because they are Maori (even partly radical Maori)is stupid.

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  20. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    Oh and before anyone thinks differently I am still a member of the VRWC and dont let anyone forget it!

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  21. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Reid, billions of taxpayer dollars have been spent on the myth of the Treaty, Waitangi and Maori suffering, all concepts grounded in the age old red flag strategy of divide and conquer. It has caused a massive social divide among Maori and the rest of New Zealand.

    This bullshit should have been put to bed decades ago, and the country would have been so much the better for it. Just think of where we would be without all of that wasted money, effort, legislation, discussion and focus on the past, especially with its entrenchment into the thought processes of our young. What an utter debilitating waste of resources.

    Opportunist power seeking politicians used the TOW industry for political capital by exploiting just the kind of perverted perceptions that you have in your post above, and we have now reached the stage where a party based on race and privilege for one sector of society sits on the government benches and demands that its flag be flown over government buildings.

    Embraced by a party (National) that on one hand prides itself on its own cultural and racial diversity at the same time as it sucks up to a party of racists and supremacists who will not accept anyone of a different race or culture into their group.

    And when I and others expose these racists and supremacists for what they really are, and object to their presence in government, we suffer derisive name calling from ignorant one dimensional bigots like you. And you say you have used reason to arrive at your conclusions at the same time as you seek support in claims of numerical superiority and claims of patriotism. You sound just like Hitler Jugen. Go away. Once again, you’re exhibiting all the symptoms of a navel gazing self obsessed patronizing bore.

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  22. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    “But remember it is wise to keep your friends close and your enemys closer” (I believe Anwar Sadat also used to quote sun tzu)
    but do you think he really understands who the enemy may be?

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  23. Manolo (13,780 comments) says:

    The ineffable and aptly named savage wrote: “In the meantime Labour is planning and rebuilding and will be ready to go.”

    I almost choke with laughter reading this ridiculous sentence. The first step towards rebuilding is to accept defeat and the socialist Labour Party has not done that yet. You only need to listen to Goff’s/Cunliffe’s stupid comments to realise the arrogance of the red leadership. Annette King does not count at all, she’s beyond hope.

    Labour will be “ready” as you call it in the year 2017. Fingers crossed it happens at least two or three decades later :-)

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  24. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    Patrick Oh yes I do. He wasnt known as the smiling assassin for nothing. You have to remember he is not a career politician (or academic). He was a business man and a very successful one at that. Having worked in big business myself I know you dont get to where he did by not understanding the people and nuances around you and, knowing exactly how to ‘handle’ them.

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  25. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    And when I and others expose these racists and supremacists for what they really are, and object to their presence in government, we suffer derisive name calling from ignorant one dimensional bigots like you.

    RB, don’t know if you’ve noticed, but when reasonable and mild people like myself post things like my 11:02, someone called Redbaiter often leaps in with remarks like:

    What utterly nauseating patronising socialist racist crap. You Reid, can label such voters “rednecks”, in yet another example of your dimwitted propensity for left wing propaganda over reason

    Gosh I’m sorry to make you “suffer derisive name calling,” RB, really I am. I wouldn’t want to you to think I was at all like an SS Panzer Division, let alone a “gazing self obsessed patronizing bore.” Heaven forfend.

    Just on the topic, I note that you still haven’t addressed the reasoning in my 11:02, what’s the matter, still feeling emotional? Here’s a hint. Try to establish using your vast skillset, that my analysis of the Maori attitude is in fact wrong.

    Look forward to discussing it with you in a few hours time. Take care, RB. Love you.

    P.S. Is that patronising enough? I can be even more patronising, if that’s what you enjoy.

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  26. kiwi in america (2,454 comments) says:

    Red
    There’s a big difference between supporting Labour’s endless sinkhole of money thrown at Maori issues with little in the way of discernable positive outcomes (which John Key does not support) and the symbolic gesture of a flag. Key handled this issue with aplomb IMHO. The current flag often used at demonstrations (the red and black Tinorangatirotanga flag) IS a decidedly separatist flag and one that does not have widespread Maori support. Key deftly turned the issue of a flag back to Maori and asked them to decide what flag should represent them. That is a debate Maori can have internally. To fly a flag on one day from a couple of government flag poles is an inexpensive (actually free financally and politically) gesture that nonetheless carries with it political mana within Maoridom. These symbols are important.

    I don’t see anything in National’s policies that promote further separatism. The Maori Party are an MMP reality – we have this system flawed as it is and until the people of NZ vote to remove it then the system allows Maori to form their own party and for Maori voters to vote for it.

    It was a clever thing for Key to include the MP even though he didnt need to – that fact right there changed the dynamic. National is not beholden to Sharples to govern in the way it is with ACT. People voted for National knowing they would form a coalition with ACT – Sharples knows that if the MP demand politically unacceptable concessions from National that would never fly in middle NZ, Key would cut the MP loose and not suffer a whit politically if he had to. This frees Key and Sharples to craft new policies that could genuinely make a difference in Maoridom that Labour or National alone could never introduce. Sharples (and most of his caucus but not all) realise that welfarism has destroyed whole swadges of Maori society and that the left’s assault on the family has devastated Maori families even more.

    Its easy to sloganise and rant and pidgeonhole – I’m neutral at this point as to the impact or usefulness of the arrangement Key has made with the MP. Lets let this play out and we may be pleasantly surprised. Sharples, empowered to make real, deep lasting changes, might achive what no other Minister of Maori Affairs has ever achieved.

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  27. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    My thoughts exactly KIA

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  28. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Sorry KIA. I don’t buy into the current “Pita Sharples is a good guy and a way out of the mess we’re in” paradigm. It smacks of the same mindless misplaced patronizing adulation the social liberals indulged themselves in when Mugabe took power in Rhodesia.

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  29. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “What utterly nauseating patronising socialist racist crap. You Reid, can label such voters “rednecks”, in yet another example of your dimwitted propensity for left wing propaganda over reason”

    This is not name calling. It is valid if somewhat strongly expressed criticism. It does not parallel your application of the label “redneck” even in the misconstrued sense that you apply it.

    PS- its not “gazing self obsessed bore”, it’s “NAVEL gazing self obsessed bore”, and it came long after “redneck”.

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  30. kiwi in america (2,454 comments) says:

    Red
    My point is we don’t know one way or the other right now – you assume this is a mistake when there is no evidence thus far that it is. To me Key’s decision has heaps of political upside with very little downside. If Sharples surprises and does a good job, Key gets the credit for a smart coalition move and he further shuts out Labour from any revival in their Maori vote (vital for them to make any comeback). If he disappoints Key can fire him and say – sorry folks I really made this deal with the hopes that the MP could deliver on their promise of something new and since they cant/wont, their business as usual attitude will not be part of our coalition.

    That is very smart politics and has not really been tried – that to me is the genius of Key – he isn’t wedded to old ways but he’s enough of a pragmatist to know that governing has its limits. Let’s see how it pans out.

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  31. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    Exactly KIA. Thinking outside the square. Trying something different that just might work. Not repeating the same mistakes over and over. As you point out if it works – its a win. If it doesnt- Key still gets the kudos for trying and Maori will not be in a position to say that pakeha exclude them – once again a win.

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  32. MT_Tinman (3,187 comments) says:

    # mickysavage Says:
    February 8th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    Redbaiter

    “I say many voters supported Key on the basis that the Nationals wanted to govern alone, and not in alliance with any sub group”

    SO they do believe they are born to rule!!

    Too damned right they were born to rule.

    A quick look at their opposition provides emperical evidence of that.

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  33. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Bloody Hell!

    For the last three months we on the right have been deluding ourselves, for some stupid reason we thought we have won an election.
    It is now clear to me that the left won and continue to hold the reigns of power in NZ, all it took was nine years of PC mid control and nine years of stomping on any detractors for the left to brain wash a large percentage of the NZ population.

    One of the most basic principles of PC and pinko left politics is to label those who oppose you, as soon as I see Reid and Lucy using terms like “redneck” I know that they have been turned.

    Redbaiter is right, a lot of what has been written is indeed “nauseating patronising socialist racist crap”, for me the racist element is by far the most important, I will fight against racism where ever I see it or where ever I come across it, I am not going to look away or cower in fear because the racist happens to have brown skin, nor am I going to let somebody put me off my stride by labelling me a redneck.

    It must be one rule for all and one class of Kiwi, and frankly, those of you who claim to be right wingers are deluding yourself, Key is leading a left wing government and those who blindly support him are not much more than Chardonnay socialists.

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  34. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Red My point is we don’t know one way or the other right now – you assume this is a mistake when there is no evidence thus far that it is. ”

    Not the way I see it KIA. (Isn’t the flag enough warning for you??) Turia left Labour because the cronyist and racist deals with Klark fell apart, as they were always going to, and she sneaked out of parliament like the coward I think she is lying prone in the back seat of a limo, and then formed the Maori Party, and Pita Sharples and the rest couldn’t wait to jump into the same corrupt pigs at the trough racist waka.

    The Maori Party is a racist, bigoted and, with its focus on the past and the Treaty and all the rest of that whining wingeing empty regressive bullshit, an entirely negative force in NZ culture and politics. The only thing it could ever do to impress me would be to disband and its leaders crawl back into the woodwork they came out of. Mark my words. If it continues to exist, it will irretrievably split this country (more than it has already) and lead to the kind of social disintegration that will make Zimbabwe and South Africa look good.

    The only thing that will save us is the good sense of NZers from all cultural backgrounds and all walks of life and all races turning their backs on these power obsessed separatist troglodytes and their unproductive focus on a past composed of politically motivated myths and legends. Key should have turned his back on them too rather than helping to build them a stage to prance about on.

    Brash had it right, and the support for him after his speech at Orewa shows most NZers know this. Thankfully. Key needs to reach out to middle NZ, not radicals using racism as a plank to political power and cloaking their deceit in political legitimacy by pretending to be moderates.

    Sharples wants the flag flown. End of story.

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  35. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    BB I have never ever ever used the term red neck.

    I am totally against race based policies and I believe some Maori are far more racist than any pakeha will ever be.

    What I am saying and what I believe KIA is saying is, just how are the way things are happening now working for you? Your answer would be the same as mine they are not. OK well lets try to get around this race based privilage we have in another way.

    If John Key had of turned his back on the Maori Party the same way Klark did (want to follow her policies do you) then the whinning and whinging would continue. This way at least we may have some hope of changing things. Sometimes you have to give a little to get a lot.

    And forgive me for having a different opinion, I really believed that we were different from the left in that we were ‘allowed’ to think for ourselves and occassionally we would disagree without being accused of changing sides. It is the left that leave no room for independence of thought not the right.

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  36. dimmocrazy (286 comments) says:

    Given the strong dissent on this fundamental issue of the two principal cultures combined in the NZ nation, it is perhaps an idea to consider what the different factions have in mind for the end product of the current political process, which I believe includes resolving the ‘historical issues’ with Maori. Obviously the argument at the moment is more about the way to get to the desired final result than the result itself. Perhaps it would be a good exercise if the different contributors could try to frame an objective so we can see whether those objectives are actually the same. After agreeing on that there can be debate on how to go about it. Here’s my simplified proposal:
    We should strive for a nation based on a strong formal constitution that allows for a multi-cultural (not bi-cultural) society founded on strong individual rights (speech religion property) and a very limited and strictly controlled state.

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  37. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Lucy

    “BB I have never ever ever used the term red neck.”

    In that case I apologise.

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  38. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    Thank you.

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  39. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Dimmo, I just don’t see the damn need for your focus on “cultural”, multi, bi or whatever the fucken hell else. Forget it. Any constitutional document should not have within its text any reference to gender race or culture. This is all so much politically correct Marxist crapola. Justice is blind, and so should the social norm be.

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  40. Ruth (178 comments) says:

    Key has actually neutralised the Maori Party – even though they don’t know it.

    Really that is enough for mainstream NZers – though not for the permanently aggrieved far right on blogs who would like to see the Maori Party ground into the dust.

    But they are not listened to, thank heavens.

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  41. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “But they are not listened to, thank heavens.”

    Not applicable, but as always, a perspective that betrays the speaker’s lack of real and rational argument. A minority of Germans tried to warn the majority about Adolf, and they weren’t listened to either. There’s nothing to be gained by saying people with views that differ to those of the mainstream should not be listened to. History has proven it to be a foolish attitude.

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  42. bkd09 (5 comments) says:

    I invoke Godwin’s Law, citing two comments: 11:49 a.m. (Redbaiter) & 3:50 p.m. (Redbaiter).

    Reference to Adolf Hitler in these comments seems unnecessary and petty.

    In the case of the second comment, it distracts from an excellent point: practically all ideas are worth listening to. Even disagreements help sharpen thinking on all sides.

    I’ll restrict myself to one substantive—albeit somewhat elliptical—point: that the Maori Party was willing to engage with & support a National-led Government suggests that its agenda is not essentially separatist.

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  43. dimmocrazy (286 comments) says:

    RB, you probably haven’t noticed that I didn’t include gender,race or culture in my ‘strong individual rights’. Neither did I say that the text of a constitution should refer to cultural aspects, I said: “that ALLOWS for a multi-cultural society”.

    It appears you have a tendency to squeeze out expletives rather than read what a bit of text actually states.
    You should have come back with something along these lines:
    -I don’t think that any reference to culture is relevant in a constitutional document, because………..
    -The same applies to gender or race, because………….
    -I agree/disagree with protection of individual rights, because…………….
    -I agree/disagree with a limited state, under strict (constitutional control), because……………..

    Now that would have been an argument, stating that my suggestion is “so much politically correct Marxist crapola” is not. In fact, were you aware of such matters, you would have noted that my suggestion is in fact an abbreviation of one of the most famous and notably ‘right wing’ constitutions.

    Where it not for your next comment: “Justice is blind, and so should the social norm be”, I would have thought that the label ‘redneck’ was in fact, appropriate.
    The only question left is whether your “social norm” includes any spare room for opinions that appear dissimilar to yours (emphasize the word ‘appears’).

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  44. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    So many words… Get a life dimmo.

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  45. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    (Letting a few radical Maori dictate the wants and needs of all of them.)
    Lucy, care to name those horis who dictate the wants and needs to other hori ?
    And please, not Tame, good god Tame coming to we the Nga Puhi and telling us what we will do, will not happen.

    As an old Labour type it is a pity Brash is not PM from the Nat party, hell he would ban the hori seats right away and have those hori MPs dragged out of the house, along with making sure that the white hard working rule billboards went up.

    ACT can bleat as much as they want about how Douglas would save us all by giving away the rest of the family silver, but it will not happen.
    If ACT had any cojones they would vote against what they see as socialistic policies.

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  46. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    Annette Sykes, Moana Jackson, Mike Smith to name a couple grumpy

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  47. mickysavage (786 comments) says:

    Wow

    So Key’s honeymoon is ending.

    The left were never going to give Key a honeymoon because we did not trust him. We thought that he campaigned dishonestly and tried to appear to be a leftie because Helen had persuaded mainstream NZ that left was best and he knew that to win he actually had to appear to be very similiar to Helen.

    The right put up with this because they wanted power.

    But they did not want a Labour lite government, they wanted a Ruth Richardson/Don Brash bash beneficiaries and take away all privilege that the darkies had type of government. After all the only people entitled to privilege were middle class white people.

    It seems to me that Key has sought power for power’s sake and does not have a philosophical basis for holding or exercising power and both left and right are now recognising this.

    Who wants to bet that he will be the PM in three years?

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  48. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    mickey – ha, you talk about trust, wasnt that slippery huluns campaign strategy that failed because the country trusts key and dont trust labour?

    I’ll take that bet.

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  49. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    he knew that to win he actually had to appear to be very similiar to Helen.

    But he didn’t, did he, micky. He wasn’t at all tense, aloof, flinty, sarcastic, bitchy or nasty. Those are all attributes displayed exclusively by Helen.

    But they did not want a Labour lite government, they wanted a Ruth Richardson/Don Brash bash beneficiaries and take away all privilege that the darkies had type of government. After all the only people entitled to privilege were middle class white people.

    And to “prove” that, Key invited the Maori Party into govt when he didn’t have to, announced that Douglas wasn’t going to get into Cabinet, and is proceeding to implement a rather Keynesian approach to the GFC.

    It seems to me that…

    Mickey, given your track record on the first few paras of your comment, I hope you’ll forgive me if I stopped reading at that point.

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  50. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    Mickey what planet are you on?
    The right are having a healthy debate thats all.
    Unlike the left we can agree to disagree on issues.
    Unlike the left we dont have to follow the same mantra we acan have differing opinions.

    Im with expat. I’ll take that bet too.

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  51. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Name your price Mickey!

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  52. Joe Dzug (15 comments) says:

    While rash bets are being offered, anyone want to bet that the Maori Party (the Party, not any waka-jumpers who want to preserve their position) will still be part of the Government by the 2011 election?

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  53. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Frankly I think any bets at this time are very risky and I wouldn’t take one unless Mickey and Joe are offering odds of at least, say 10,000-1. Are you?

    The economic volatility and the effect that’s going to have on voter sentiment will be by far the key determinant in both those questions. Good luck predicting what that’s going to do over the next three years.

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  54. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    Your not a betting man are you Reid?

    I’ll take that one too Joe.

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  55. WebWrat (516 comments) says:

    Isn’t a ‘redneck’ a Presbyterian?

    “The right put up with this because they wanted power.”

    Get your head out of your arse Micky, a majority voted to get rid of a tyrant and a failed, corrupt socialist government.

    That’s all …. not rocket science.

    Just had an absolute gutsful!

    Accept it …. or move to Cuba or some other commo country where you can get your rocks off by being enslaved or killed by your masters.

    Iran is an ‘in’ place for lefties now.

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  56. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    You a immigrant Lucy ?, because none of them are Nga Puhi, and some how I cannot see Sykes spouting out words of wisdom on a Northern marae.
    Wahines have such long tongues that cause trouble that they do not speak on a Nga Puhi marae.

    Sykes Te Arawa
    Jackson Ngati Porou
    Smith Ngati jafa.
    We would follow that bunch of girls LOL

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  57. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    Sorry Grumpy I keep forgetting that Maori are not a united people. That they are strictly tribal so of course someone from another tribe could not presume to speak for all Maori. And women have their place in Maori Society and that is definately not as an equal no matter how loud they protest that they arel.

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