The cost of the credit crisis
February 27th, 2009 at 12:34 pm by David Farrar
This comes from Reserve Bank Governor Alan Bollard’s presentation to the PM’s Jobs Summit.
US$39 trillion is a lot of money. It is 390 times the size of the NZ economy.
This is why things are going to get a lot worse, and why local measures (no matter how worthy) will have little effect.
Related posts:
- Graeme Wheeler
- New Zealand Reserve Bank Annual 2010
- NZ Herald on banking crisis
- Bollard admits risks in depost guarantee scheme
February 27th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
A lot of that “wealth” never existed, except as numbers in a computer, packaged loans and derivatives, and all the other crocks of shite created by the lunatics we allowed to have control of the counting hosues.
Time to sweep the charnel house clean and start anew.
First ones to hang from lamposts should be those who made it all possible – the ratings agencies.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
And you sarcastically rubbished Sue Bradford on this topic yesterday DPF! Guess it depends on who the messenger is rather than what the message is then.
[DPF: I am not saying it is worst than the Great Depression and will possibly last until I (or Sue) dies. I think it will be very nasty, but not last for more than half a decade]
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
“Time to sweep the charnel house clean and start anew.”
The market was actually in the process of doing just that when Big Government stepped in.
I dont know why Bollard is saying this. Is he comparing the current nominal losses to the historical nominal ones? Or is he comparing real figures? How has he compared the loss of wealth in the current situation with the loss of wealth during World War 2? Or the Napoleanic wars? The loss of global wealth during the extended fall of the Roman Empire would be a very interesting study.
Actually toad, Sue Bradford said that it would be worse than the great depression and would not improve during her lifetime: a far more apocalyptic proclamation.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Toad, because she was predicting it would last “her lifetime”.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
And the understatment award goes to… “US$39 trillion is a lot of money”.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
A big storm has just hit.. thunder, hail etc.. worst we have seen for a long time.
Person a – “i think this is going to get a lot worse, that raincoat wont do ya much good.”
Person b (bradford) – “this is the worst storm in history, its going to last a lifetime. the end is near.”
toad – “Person A agrees with Bradford”
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Now, Bollard COULD have had an interesting stat if he had pointed out the historical level of production capacity destruction.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
“This is why things are going to get a lot worse, and why local measures (no matter how worthy) will have little effect.”
..and this in turn is why National needs to stop thinking like socialists (and that bat eared commie fuckwit Obama), and do something that really helps the economy.
Like cutting taxes and cutting government spending.
Its not your money you left wing politicians here and in the US, and when you have taken it , you have wasted it.
Spent it on unworthy things like propping up the uneconomic businesses of socialists posturing as businessmen, or you have dissipated it by handing it out to worthless bludgers in return for their vote.
Now, step aside and let the people who earned that money spend it as they wish. That, as unpalatable as it is to any socialist, is the only true path to economic recovery. Everything else is either lies, or smoke and mirrors that will only exacerbate the situation.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
“that bat eared commie fuckwit Obama”
Prceless!
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
“that bat eared commie fuckwit Obama”
Priceless!
[Oops - spelling of "priceless" corrected. Don't know what happened there...]
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
I’ve now had the chance to view the Backbenchers episode, and I don’t think DPF was being entirely accurate in reporting what Sue Bradford said. And it certainly wasn’t what Kimble and Captain Crab say above. Here’s a transcript of that bit:
Not quite as apocalyptic as you or DPF make out Kimble. In fact fairly consistent with what DPF is now saying above in this post.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
“Now, step aside and let the people who earned that money spend it as they wish. That, as unpalatable as it is to any socialist, is the only true path to economic recovery.”
True, true. We’ve had John Key’s tax cut for how long now, exactly? And just look at how that has fixed everything!
“Everything else is either lies, or smoke and mirrors that will only exacerbate the situation.”
Yes it’s just all lies, Baiter. Lies, lies, lies, and more lies. When are those dirty socialist commies going to learn that you see right through their conspiracy, eh?
[DPF: Actually the Key tax cuts are yet to come in - they are two months away.]
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Tax cut smax cut.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Toadster
“its the type of depression, actually, that we’ll never see the end of possibly in my lifetime.”
How long does Braford expect to live?
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
And the rat lights another flame
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Free market capitalism, a wonderful idea, just a pity it did not work out in practice.
[DPF: Yes Sonic is a champion of the socialist paradises of Cuba and North Korea]
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Thats where you are wrong as usual sonic, the free market is doing exactly what it should, working itself out.
Vote:Your lot giving away our wealth to “dependants” assisted in pushing us toward the current situation, plus admittedly the blindness of greedy people, but thats the market.
February 27th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
sonic – youre right. Socialism only killed 50 million people, lets give it another go
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
$39 trillion is obviously a lot of money. But it needs to be balanced with the phenomenal increase in stock and housing prices over, say, the last decade. Are house prices and share prices now still higher, even after the recent drop, than they were in 1999? If so then we’re still better off than we were.
Or, to put it another way, if after the bubble bursts values are lower than before the bubble started, then we’re net losers. If the values are higher, then we’re net winners.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Didn’t Alan Bollard say a few weeks ago that the worst of the downturn was over?
and as for Sonic’s 1.42pm post: “Free market capitalism, a wonderful idea, just a pity it did not work out in practice…”
Well neither do socialism, or communism, or fascism — all of which want the state to run things — work out in practice. Anarchists can’t even agree on what anarchism is so we’ll never know how good it could be.
Capitalism’s like democracy, imperfect but the best system available.
The 1930s Depression in the West was tough going, and this downturn might be, too. But it will beat the hell out of Soviet gulags, which killed millions of Soviet citizens, and Red China’s Great Leap Forward, which killed tens of millions.
Vote:If socialism was better than capitalism, North Korea would be booming and South Korea near-starving.
February 27th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Yes David those are the only alternatives on offer, North Korean Stalinism or the discredited casino capitalism you support.
Dime, just out of interest how many people has capitalism killed over the last 200 years? just in round numbers
[DPF: Name a country that has prospered with socialism, ie the state controlling the means of production etc]
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
And schools out early today.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Agree Davidp – the only way that much wealth could be lost (assuming it has/the numbers are correct etc etc) is if it was created in the first place.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
And, just by the way, Labour signed a Free Trade Agreement with China. Now all the Unions are complaining that jobs are going to China – what did they expect?????
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
I’ve been away for a while, nice to see that the quality of Murray’s contributions remains as good as ever.
You know who you lot remind me of, the old communists in 1989 who watched the Berlin wall fall but still clung to an ideology that history had exposed as utter nonsense.
It’s amazing that despite the utter collapse of the free market and a financial system that only survives through huge government bailouts you still parrot the old lies.
It’s sorta funny and sorta sad.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Point of order Mr Farrar? Do we now have two posters with “Grumpy” in their title, or has the original Grumpy modified his name. Tks.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Sonic: Re your 1:58pm.
What system would you impose instead of the “free market and financial system”? And can you give any examples of it in practice please?
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Impose jack5? who said anything about imposing?
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
“I’ve been away for a while”
What prison did you stay at dear sonic?
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Sonic: your 2.01pm: well what system do you advocate instead of the “free market and financial system”? And can you give any examples of it in practice please”
I wrote imposed because most state systems, including communism and fascism are usually imposed and always maintained by armed force.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Jack, have you never noticed that Capitalism is also maintained by armed force (or is there another reason for all those police and armies?)
[DPF: You lie as usual. In communist states the army and police were to stop people leaving. In capitalist states it is generally to stop people coming in]
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Agree DavidP.
Also it is worth noting that consumer confidence is historically a contrarian indicator, and from an ‘emotional economics’ point of view when just about everyone has an apocalyptic view critical mass has been reached, and a turnaround is not too far off.
As a contrarian I have been buying bank stocks. In the US – not here.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Sonic: re your 2.04pm: This is the third request…
What system do you advocate instead of the “free market and financial system”? And can you give any examples of it in practice please.
Please stop ducking and give us your model.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
I agree with the LEFTIES as to whose responsible and who should be hanging from the trees.
However the was NOT the pure free market in action.
It was a toxic combination of dumb or corrupt or dumb and corrupt governance by legislators and regulators and exploited by dumb or corrupt or dumb and corrupt bankers and other business people.
It was a human made disaster. It was entirely aviodable if we had of had good governace in the form of principled legislation and regulation that allowed the moral an ethical to conduct their business free from interference whilst severely punishing the immoral and unethical who rorted or tried to rort the system.
Instead we had either dumb laws or no laws or laws that encouraged the immoral and unethical to do their worst.
What this has shown is the gap between the pollies and the civil servants intelect and those of the bad bastards.
the BBs were simply smarter than the pollies and civil servants. And that sure is a worry because until they get a better grip they will continued to be outsmarted and out thought by the BBs and there will be no fix to the problems
Believe me As we speak the BBs are working out how to rort the system further
Want an example
Barry Obama hands over $350BILLION to the US bankers and then says Heh guys What are you going to do with this
The Bankers tell Bazza Mind you own business and give us the balance of the TARP or else.
That was real smart Bazza. What you gonna do when they come back and do an Oliver Twist on you Cause they will Bazza they will.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
And chronic reminds me of a moronic myopic sociaist hack who hasn’t worked out hes in the wrong country. We punted your kind out of office big time, do try and keep up little man.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Actually GD, the first tranche of the TARP was handed out on GWBush’s watch.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
..as was the first lot of car company “loans”
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Bolger-Richardson-Shipley free market government cost 14 lives at Cave Creek . Dont remember Clark – Cullen costing any lives
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
“Bolger-Richardson-Shipley free market government cost 14 lives at Cave Creek . Dont remember Clark – Cullen costing any lives”
One of the most cowardly smears I’ve read from you yellow backed leftist arseholes .. and that is saying something.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
While I have sympathy for those feeling this on a personal level, I’m for one glad that is happening. I don’t understand why there is such shock and a rush to pump more money (debt) into the system to try and stimulate a recovery that would have likely occurred on its own? The trillions of wealth exist as little more than 0′s in the computer system – speculation and greed combined with shoddy lending practices in a exponentially growing economy and what do you get – a big bubble built on musical chairs.. bubble bursts.. music stops. This is simply the natural order of things – the fat had to be eliminated and there was a lot of it which is why this crisis has been as large and far-reaching as it has. This crisis ideally should have occurred as a mere correction a few years ago.. god knows what would happen if it didn’t happen now and the monster grew for another few years – complete collapse anybody?
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
“van hartog” posted at 2.28: “Bolger-Richardson-Shipley free market government cost 14 lives at Cave Creek”
There are lies and damn lies. This, “van Hartog” is a fucking lie. Rot in hell!
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Jack & Red, just typical trolling and flame lighting, ignore it, it will go away, just like all bullies.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Forgotten about had you Jack5.
Those who didnt die were crippled for life.
All so that the department lived within its budget.
Cant offend the budget cutters in Wellington can we.
Vote:Looks like history will repeat it self.
And then there was the leaky homes.
All because of the policies of B-R-S.
That cost $500,000,000 and peoples health wrecked over the worry is distress
February 27th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
jacob
Using your “logic” then Clark and Cullen are directly responsible for the death of Karl Kuchenbecker.
What a mind numbingly stupid cunt you are.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Can we please understand this was not the pure free market at work this was an aberation for all the reasons I have set out
In fact in NZ the Finance Company collapses costing $5 Billion dollars happended under a Socialist government who I and others had warned back in 2002 to adopt sensible and sound regulation or have the inevitable occur.
Lianne Dalziel as Minister of Commerce repeatedly told me and others that our proposed regulation was an uneccesary complainace cost on BridgeCorp Hanover Provincial etc etc and so she refused to act.
So much for the free market as all we were wanting was for the investors to have information and the companies to employ tested qualified professionals to provide disclosure and transperancey
So you Socialists should go ask dear Lianne why she didnt do what she should ahve and why thousands lost BILLIONS as a result.
Jeeez its get a bit frustrating when a LEFTIE government wont do the smart thing and allows the CROOKs to profit and then the LEFTIE supporters start babble on about the free market being at fault
It was your lot you dumbarses as I have set out
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Its an impressive amount of wealth destruction but you’re not comparing apples with apples. You’re comparing US$39 trillion of ASSET destruction with $US100 million of INCOME (or more accurately GDP). I have no idea what the entire NZ Inc balance sheet is, but it would be a not inconsiderable number. And what would you do – add up all the interests owned by the crown plus the value of every private sector interest? But the main point is I think that is a sensationalist use of statistics- the number is sensational in its own right.
And in the US context would be interesting to compare that 39 trillion with US GDP and the asset value of USA Inc. I don’t have the time or energy right here but would be an interesting exercise I think.
And for what its worth, we are not seeing the failure of capitalism, we are seeing what happens when market distortions are allowed to persist (both pre-crisis and certainly thru till now). The right response here would be to see a lot of creative destruction of wealth – subsidising the failed (I’m talking businesses not individuals) doesn’t allow resources to go where they are most productive. Step back Governments of the world, you cannot spend your way out of debt. If it were that easy we’d all be doing it.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
I am lucky. My job is safe. The only effect on me will be to reduce working hours.
And, that is why it is better to be in critical core operation support roles, as opposed to fancy dancy ‘special project’ work.
all the special project staff have already been canned.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Some 18 months ago the Trust that I am associated with decided, against the recommendation of the Custodial Trustee, to rebalance our portfolio and go cash heavy with ther result that around 70% of our portfiolio is in cash and triple A bonds … and thank god we did.
Was it old Joe Kennedy who said that when the elevator boys start talking buying and selling equities on the margin it was time to get out … and he did and came thru the ‘Great Crash’ in fine shape (thanks partly to Mafia connections and a little bootlegging on the side).
And I got stuck with Dominion Finance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
DPF – I don’t agree with your calculations …. $390 trillion is english $390 billion or $390,000 american billion (which seems to be the accepted definition nowadays). And assuming the you mean a years GDP by the size of the NZ economy it’s up to $150 billion plus from memory.
So .. $390 trillion is thousands of times the size of the NZ economy – can someone check my figures as I’m doing this after a POETS day G&T?
MyNameisJackshit’s comment ……
” A lot of that “wealth” never existed, except as numbers in a computer, packaged loans and derivatives, and all the other crocks of shite created by the lunatics we allowed to have control of the counting hosues ”
shows such a fundamental lack of understanding of basic economics it’s truly staggering. Something is worth what someone will pay for it .. even the $ in your bank account changes in value every day – a dollar is not a dollar – it’s what it can purchase. What does happen is that people are stupid and don’t live up to the very basic maxim of an asset only has value in terms of its ability to generate income or its need and cost to replace or in the case of some assets what a bigger fool is willing to pay for it or rarity. Your house is worth whatever and has a nominated value until you sell it – you still get to have a mortgage using its value as security.
gomango – I’m with you – please don’t decrease spending drastically, don’t increase spending drastically, do increase the quality of the spend by using the opportunity to remove the wasteful spends introduced by the socialists.
I would also add Greenspan has a lot to answer for – he never let a recession happen when it should have on multiple occasions. Recessions are the necessary die back of capalist oriented economies. They weed out the chaff.
[DPF: No it is American trillion which is near universally the norm now - 1,000 billion]
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
This is unmitigated rubbish, cherry picked from the difference between a bubble peak and a panic trough.
Almost all of the $39 trillion is the $30 trillion equity loss. You can see this in the Dow Jones dropping by half from its peak of about 14,000 down to 7,000 today. But that peak was a short-lived and emphemeral bubble. The underlying value of the Dow over the last 10 years has actually been about 10,000. So a more accurate value of the loss from this level would be around $13 trillion for equities and $21 trillion overall. Further, if the equity markets recover 15% from the trough (a quite reasonable expectation), the loss becomes $7 trillion for equities and $16 trillion overall.
Sure, that’s still a big number. It’s equivalent to the US GDP. But it’s less than half of Alan Bollard’s alarmist figure.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
John Whitehead’s speechis also worth a read.
(http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/media-speeches/speeches/jobsummit/jobsumm09-spch.pdf) .
Some pretty clear evidence of the ‘wasted years’ of the last Government, in terms of GDP growth and the quality of regulation.
His prescription:
a) protect the vulnerable, not this status quo. This is really important. The people at the factory in Levin making raincoats for the army should NOT have their employment secured. New Zealand has no comparative advantage in manufacturing and spending other peoples’ money to keep uneconomic firms operating is a recipe for long-term decline.
b) prepare for the future: improve skills
c) don’t pass on a burden of debt. Government spending has to be controlled, and quickly.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
If socialism was better than capitalism, North Korea would be booming and South Korea near-starving.
Classic!!
The Pinkos love to ignore the facts. Only Utopia is correct.
The best of it is that they haven’t got a clue on how to create or manage wealth.
That is why they take the opportunity to line their own pockets when in power.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Oh I seem to have annoyed mild mannered Mr Farrar.
I merely pointed out that Capitalism too relies on armed force, why our little chum decided to bring imigration into it no-one quite knows.
He gets quite angry when people show him up have you noticed?
[DPF: You could not show up an amoeba. Capitalist countries tend to use their armed forces and Police to protect their citizens from criminals and other countries. Most communist countries use their forces to protect the Government from the people - a big difference. Go to Cuba and you will see the difference]
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
latest apology for Casino capitalism
“It is not quite as bad as North Korea”
Oh how have the mighty fallen!
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Sonic, you really don’t have an answer do you?
You always give an oblique view that never tackle the question, fact or situation.
Ofusacation for the masses.
The scary thing is that the internet will prevent Socialist Agendas being foisted on educated populations.
No, actually not scary. Wonderful. Which is why the Pinkos want the Internet policing.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
So “tackling the question” is wittering on about North Korea?
Ah well, logic and Tories have never been happy bedfellows.
“they haven’t got a clue on how to create or manage wealth”
Unlike those wonderful Wall Street bankers?
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Like the fiscally blind Cullen.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Michael Cullen caused the Creadit Crisis?
Well that is certainly a unique view.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Tell him all about your Porsche, GM! That might clinch it.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
He has a Porche!
I take it all back and bow before him.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
But sonic Helen Klark has 5 or 6 houses, eh comrade. You are a commie dumbo and the lads over at Harry’s have been worried about your absence, you dropkick mellon.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
What is that annoying whining noise?
Ah well best just to ignore it and it will go away.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
He has a different one for every day of the week, apparently. But don’t take my word for it, ask him!
I tried to extend a hand of car-enthusuast fellowship to try and diffuse some of his personal nastiness on a thread last year, and instead I got a lesson all about how I was basically the scum of the earth because I hadn’t earned the cash to own a barn full of Porsches, and basically I was a jealous leftie just trying to drag people like him down, and I should beg for a chance to have a ride around the track in his GT3 or something!
(I fear I may have let myself down with a follow-up remark about how I am certain there is a lot more room for misbehaviour in the back seat of my Triumph than that of his Porsche, but I did not believe that difference in design would cause GM any great loss… )
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
You are like a painful toothache sonic, you just keep coming back.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
There is no talking to some people Ratbiter,
I find this a handy guide of who to ignore
http://flyingrodent.blogspot.com/2009/02/on-legitimisation-of-dickhead.html
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Ratty:
“I tried to extend a hand of car-enthusuast fellowship to try and diffuse some of his personal nastiness on a thread last year, and instead I got a lesson all about how I was basically the scum of the earth because I hadn’t earned the cash to own a barn full of Porsches, and basically I was a jealous leftie just trying to drag people like him down, and I should beg for a chance to have a ride around the track in his GT3 or something!”
The scary thing about this thread was, GM’s triumphal porsche ownership came up in a discussion of his life’s achievements. Relationships, children, friends … none of these featured. Nope. He owned Porsches. Ipso facto, he had made it. Loathe as I am to quote Marx on commodity fetishism, it all came flooding back.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Ratty Fatty ; you should check out sonic’s mate the flying rodent link, then you could all get together and eat the leaves of the Strychnos nux vomica tree.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Married for 25 years.
Celebrated with a gale dinner overlooking the Taj Mahal.
Been with my lovely wife for 32 years.
We have a Son, just majored in Engineering.
And a Daughter who has qualified with a BSc in Equine Nutrition.
Very happy with life, despite having ‘lost’ a few bucks in the recent markets.
Please that the Porsche ownership left an impression.
Mwwaaahhhhh HHHHHaaaaaa
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 6:52 pm
So why are you so filled with anger and rage then Glutaemus?
I see Mr Farrar has now brought Cuba into the argument, who next pre-columbian South American Incas?
Still he misses the point, if you look at the history of any major capitalist power you will see lots of examples of the police and army being used against, for example, striking workers who threaten the economic system.
Don’t call yourself an amoeba David, you are at least one, if not two evolutionary steps up from that.
xxx
S
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Jacob, how many lives did Helen ruin with the bad blood scandal of the 1980s?
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
Darwin didn’t think of a sonic gene. Oh my God.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Anger and rage is Cathartic when directed at neo commies.
Who have no agenda, but control and placing themselves above the rest.
Pure Orwellianism.
I am so happy, that I considered paying the mortgage(s) on my various properties, until I realised that I have no debt at all.
Which is nice!!
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Anger and rage is Cathartic when directed at neo commies.
Who have no agenda, but control and placing themselves above the rest.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Such a good comment you said it twice?
Some would say that spewing hate at people you don’t know and have never met is rather childish and disturbed.
However i say if it helps you let of steam and be nicer to people round you though, then go for it. And it gives us a good laugh too.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
You are the biggest laugh on here sonic. Harry wants a chat – greywolf! GM is a real man, you are a red fungus.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
we allow the likes of greenfly and sonic to hijack threads … please ignore them
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
Spewing hate a folks that are disingenuine.
Troll Meisters, and hopelessy flawed in their day to day lives.
So much so, that they feel compelled to come onto a discussion board, knowing that they are there to cause a flame.
What a sad life!
By the way, Only 3 more holidays to endure in 2009.
2008 was lush.
Crete, India, Germany, and South Island.
Hell, life is so good!!
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
Looking forward to being one of the first to drive the new Porsche Panamera.
The i-pod connection will let me play all 15,000 tunes.
I just so love being happy chappy.
And fucking of puce red commies who have nothing but their dogma.
At least it is cheaper than keeping a dog!!
Happy Times!!
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
“hopelessy flawed in their day to day lives”
Wow it’s like you are looking over my shoulder and know everything about me!
Of course you can tell how “sad” I am by my constant boasting about how rich I am, and how many holidays and cars I have, thats always how you spot an insecure person isn’t it, their pathetic attempts to convince everyone how amazing they are.
(PS, disingenuine is a new word for me, so I looked it up, according to Dictionary.com it is not an actual word at all, so can we can add making stuff up to your list of foolish mistakes tonight?
xxx
S)
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
Oh, nearly forgot.
Got two huge pension funds to draw from in 18 months.
Gummint one , and our own.
So effin happy!!
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
I bet you are such a big hit at dinner parties Glutaemus, I can just see your friends clustering around to hear your latest tale of just how fantastic your life is.
I’m sure none of them are thinking “boastful lying prat” not a single one.
Indeed I’m sure they are just as impressed with your tales as I am!
(BTW we are not laughing with you mate, seriously)
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
GM, you can spot me a grand when we’ve dealt that communist bastard sonic thing. sonic goes to dinner parties in a fetid swamp. greenfly is the owner and toad works at the bar, drongo Sue is the fly catcher in the corner.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Sonic back with a vengence. Clearly plenty of time on hands since loosing that nice Beehive job and and I guess there is nothing so unemployable as a Labour hack spin doctor.
Try knocking on the Sub-Standard’s door dearie. They might pay you what you are worth.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
Intellectual Socialists are their own worst enemies.
Just love the huge disregard that you all have for individual effort and success.
Much better to steal the wine, and blag the expenses>
FFS the taxpayers love forking out for your hedonistic lifestyles!!
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
Ross, you are as about as right in your guesses about me as your chum Glutemate Nastyness!
Got a point at all, or has that not changed whilst I’ve been gone?
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Still awaiting your definition of “disingenuine” Glutemate. Surely you have some sort of dictionary at home.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Don’t do dinner parties, hate faux socialist leaning freeloaders.
Anyone who knows me here knows that I hate pinko weirdos.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Sonic, how does it feel to be redundant and impotent?
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
sonic in my dictionary means a thick UNEMPLOYED dense communist arsehole.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
No-one invites you?
What a surprise!
A charming, rich handsome guy like you, you’d think your mastery of all the social graces would make you the first person on everyone’s party list.
It is a funny old world, eh Glutemate?
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
So disingenuine isn’t in the OED?
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
sonic give me credit , what was the name of the female High Court judge that dealt with the airport incident?
Vote:No invitations needed at a toilet party.
February 27th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Like we can’t afford our own food?
Pity that you have to freeload on all your impoverished contacts.
How hollow?
What a waste of space really.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
I’m afraid I do not have a online sub to the OED, it’s not on dictionary.com or any of the usual sites.
I’m always happy to learn a new word, I’m just looking for a source.
In return I’ll set up a new website appeal, http://www.inviteglutematetoapartyheisreallylonely.com
You’d love it, there is more than going to a party than eating food, you get to make “friends” (now that word is in the OED, look it up it’s an amazing concept, indeed some people value friends more than gold, go figure!)
xxx
S
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Keep this up sonic and Helen will be behind bars for Christmas.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Sonicisjealousasfuck.com
Much better reading!
)
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Wow, putting an insult as a webpage, what an amazingly orginal idea, where did you get them from, it’s breathtaking!
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
No need to worry about the insulting webpage chronic. Just look in the mirror and watch it crack!
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
“..DPF: You lie as usual. In communist states the army and police were to stop people leaving. In capitalist states it is generally to stop people coming in]..”
that’s bullshit dpf..
..the armed forces are to keep order here..
,,i thought it was hilarious when those new army troop carriers were criticised for being ‘unsuitable for jungles’..
.but they are perfect for here..
..eh..?
..and that is what they were purchased for..
..sending a few of them in either direction down the desert rd would ‘quell’ most things here..
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
“..Loathe as I am to quote Marx on commodity fetishism, it all came flooding back…”
heh..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
btw dpf..
..care to reel off the list of countries whose invasion our armed forces would be able to repel..?
..it shouldn’t take you very long..
..eh..?
.phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Don’t worry folks phool has hit a good brew of P.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
C’mon phil, you’re brainier than that.
You know the military isn’t kept for that, in this country. It might be being trained for that in the US as those who observe know, but not here.
You know that this country isn’t going to have long term constant internal riots that would require military suppression and you know the democratic tradition is alive and well in this country.
You know that the military need to train and that’s why they’re kept round in peacetime, since you can’t summon up a defence force at 5 mins notice.
You know that NZ has decided its military is not designed to repell but to inter-operate with other nations upon whom we depend for our defence. A concept with which I disagree but I digress.
If you really don’t know these extraordinarily elementary facts then crikey phil.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
Sorry Sonic, past your curfew?
Ah bless the kinder!!
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Weirdly enough Glutemate, those of us with “friends” tend to have other things to do on a Friday night than get drunk alone at home while surfing the net.
So I’m off out to spend my cash and wake up with nothing but a hangover and some happy memories.
You have a good night, perhaps you can cuddle up to your money for warmth and affection?
xxx
S
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
“You know that this country isn’t going to have long term constant internal riots that would require military suppression ”
Read back in history about the 1930′s Reid, and then say that with such confidence again.
Anyway enough, time to go.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
sonic goes and orders another bottle of socialist champagne and all the eunuchs and red commie gals poke pins into a rightly blogger voodoo doll. Lefty snakes need a good dose from the flame thrower.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
“Read back in history about the 1930’s Reid, and then say that with such confidence again.”
Yeh yeh, waterfront in the 50′s as well blah blah blah.
That was hardly long-term across the board suppression which is what phil was describing…
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Sonic, missing you already!!
Tui Alert.
PS Just stick to your juvenile Standard
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
“So I’m off out to spend my cash and wake up with nothing but a hangover and some happy memories.”
well – happy memories for sonic anyway – cant say the same for the poor little Thai girl he buys at Fort street tonight
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
Thai delight for Sonic!!
Nothing like taking advantage of those less fortunate than yourself.
It’s the Intellectual Socialist way.
Leeches.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 10:10 pm
There’s a great new website made by a bloke called Stan
http://www.peterjosephburnsinhell.
take a look
[DPF: 20 demerits]
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
Nice one fugley but the link doesn’t work. A bit like your cowardly pus laden brain.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
David, this might be an exaggeration. Yes, there had been good times, like just before the depression and the tech stock crash, but all that was over inflated pricing. Now, Homes selling for 500,000 in FLorida because of 0 money down. Those people couldn’t afford the balloon payments and defaulted.. Now the homes are worth 100,000. Most of those figures are inflated prices to begin with. Will we feel the affects, probably. How much of New Zealand is tied into the US market? I wish I knew but I am hoping it won’t be as bad as the news (they are in the business to sell news) That word Panic might get a little out of hand here. The Bradfords are talking out of turn because they are too dumb to realize what they are talking about but yet the public might believe it and this is dangerousl.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
Sonic is actually a highly effective national/act campaigner: he causes people to subconciously (and in many cases conciously) link left wing and stupidity, therefore ensuring their support of right wing parties.
Vote:February 27th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
This thread needs to be engraved onto a marble edifice in a large public park, put in a time capsule, laminated and passed out on street corners, made into a radio play and beamed into space. Such an awesome display of intelligence, wit, political savvy, human spirit cannot be selfishly hidden away in the comments section of a blog; it needs to be liberated, celebrated. I can’t help but shed a tear; New Zealand political discourse at its absolute apex of bedazzlement. I’m proud of you all.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 12:08 am
“The Bradfords are talking out of turn because they are too dumb to realise what they are talking about but yet the public might believe it and this is dangerous”
I don’t understand do you mean if people speak the truth that’s bad because the public will believe it?
Bollard didn’t seem to hold back? given that he told us we’re almost out of our slight recession soon.
MyNameIsJack at the very start of this thread was right a lot of this wealth never existed but the irony is that the debt is real.
and transmorg you’re right this thread is the pinnacle of something.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 12:56 am
I think Bollard’s number is about right. The scary part isn’t this total, even though that’s plenty scary. The scary part is that we’re not even halfway through the correction. There’s another tranche of property to fall through the US market, a mixture of more homes, investment and commercial property. Pretty much anything could set the derivative market off.
Try doubling that total and consult your doomometer again.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 12:58 am
The Bankers Manifesto of 1892
Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr. revealed the Bankers Manifesto of 1892 to the U.S. Congress somewhere between 1907 and 1917.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 5:13 am
so remind me why the commie knob grippers like sonic et al are getting so excited on this?
is the substandard so slow and boring these days that they need to come here?
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 7:29 am
But National are operating on autopilot, running off their Election Manifesto of 2008. That manifesto pretty much said “New Zealand’s OK, nothing to see here”. So interesting times ahead when New Zealand falls off a cliff (OK, ithe country has already fallen off a cliff, we are just waiting for the SPLAT.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 7:35 am
Kiwi bureaucratic pollie type parasites live in a dreamworld outside reality. For example, a depression looming and the demented Bob each way at the CCC wants log fires banned for the coming winter. Big government are the dam liability in hard times. Sack them all, as they do nothing but suck tax payer dollars.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 7:59 am
It’s a tough time to be a bank shareholder. You’re not just worrying about whether the ongoing recession or a further lurch downwards in housing prices is going to decimate the value of your bank’s loan portfolio. You’re also worrying about whether some government “stress test” or – worse still – nationalization is going to destroy most or all of your investment’s remaining value.
And finally, you’re worrying about whether some cockamamie government loan scheme is going to artificially force down the nice juicy interest margins your bank is earning on the new loans it makes.
Clearly, when it comes to bank nationalization, there’s more to be worried about than most investors realize.
Reason No. 1: Nationalization Distorts the Marketplace
Let’s start by just talking about nationalization in general. If you’re a shareholder in one of the banks christened “zombies” then you’ve probably already lost 90% of your investment. You’re also not getting any significant dividends, nor are you likely to get any for at least a couple of years. In a truly free market situation you would already have been wiped out – your bank is only still in existence thanks to the money it raised from last October’s “Troubled Assets Relief Program” (TARP) preferred-stock sale.
Full nationalization – giving the government 100% of the bank – would wipe you out altogether; by giving the bank the chance to turn itself around, you may be able to keep some small portion of your shareholding.
Thus, bank nationalization is not just a threat to shareholders of the “zombie” banks that are likely to be the ones nationalized. It is also a threat to the shareholders of healthier banks that will not be nationalized.
To understand just why this is true, we first must understand some banking business basics.
Reason No. 2: Nationalization
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 8:08 am
Frank, which bank(s) shares do you hold? Or did you just copy and paste this from some moaning Seppo webiste?
In case you hadn’t noticed, NZ/AUS banks are all healthy and profitable, no zombies among them.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 8:24 am
billyborker , ‘frank’ is Frank Res******, a sad old fucker who cant get his letters to the editor published in the Whanganui Chronicle.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 8:50 am
Its Wanganui Cha. No “H”.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Good piece Frank. Pity you had to spoil it by pretending to have written it yourself.
http://www.moneymorning.com/2009/02/27/bank-nationalization/
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 9:12 am
Re: Frank’s and RB’s posts, have a look at this: Governor of Bank of England says it’s impossible to say how much capital is needed to shore up the banking system
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 9:26 am
reid, currently in AUS/NZ, the total capital is $US0.00.
With the exception of NAB, who had their strife a few years back, AUS/NZ banks are insulated from the shiity US/UK/Euro banks.
Of course, its Hanrahans like you who only make things worse.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
http://flyingrodent.blogspot.com/2009/02/on-legitimisation-of-dickhead.html
well now I understand the true meaning of a dickhead
some one who is always angrily completely right. Berates those who don’t agree with him.
Uses colourful phrases to hide his ignorance. And is a complete moron in his fragrant and persistent portayal of self and detriment of others.
Sounds like the very one on this kiwi blog.
But, its funny how someone like Redbaiter always sounds angry and biased yet doesn’t come across as a dickhead.
But the key is to sound intelligent not angry. A tool Michael Moore uses; humour with bias. Definitely keeps the masses.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
“a sad old fucker who cant get his letters to the editor published in the Whanganui Chronicle.”
that’s because Michael Laws isn’t the editor. THe opinion piece would be very small, then non existent.
after insulting many of the correspondents of course.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
“People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. History repeats itself in regular cycles. This truth is well known among our principal men who are engaged in forming an imperialism of the world. While they are doing this, the people must be kept in a state of political antagonism.”
“the people must be kept in a state of political antagonism.”
This is the conspiracy that is denied and crippling democracy and capatilism.
“People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders.”
I can’t agree with this statement. People taken of their posessions have nothng to do but quarrel.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
What a peculiar post, billy. Can you explicate please? The bits about capital and Hanrahan? You’re talking Yeats I assume? Don’t know him that well.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Read THIS on the Aussie Banks exposure to the same financial instruments that have brought Wall Street down:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24512665-30538,00.html
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
“Equity Markets”: $30 trillion
Does Bollard really understand this? Was that ever “wealth” in the first place?
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
ANZ and NAB have the biggest exposures.
NAB owns ASB.
“We need more disclosure and we need a central clearing system so we know where the risk ends up,” he said.
That’s exactly right. There’s a very good article that explains where they came from. Phil, it might have been you that put me onto it, thanks if so. It’s the unknown nature of these that’s the real issue.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
bzzzt – wrong AGAIN fuckknuckle
NAB owns BNZ
ASB is owned by CBA
Yep, a definite Hanrahan.
Small error in earlier post, was meant to read total capital needed
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
“ASB is owned by CBA”
Thanks for the correction, billy.
Now, about your massive delusion that the Aus/NZ banks’ balance sheets aren’t fucked, care to expand on that?
And again, what’s a Hanrahan. Google didn’t explain it, for once.
P.S. What do you mean, wrong AGAIN?
I’ve only ever been wrong once. I thought I was wrong, but I wasn’t.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Nationalisation is really the only risk as far as US bank shares go.
I believe banks will not be nationalised, as it is not in govt interests, or in the interests of fat cats who have so much tied up in options.
So I have put in an order for a few more come Monday. Not a strategy for the faint-hearted, but banks shares have never been so cheap, and you cannot lose if you don’t think nationalisation will happen.
Follow the money – look at what the Jews are doing
Same as in the Great Depression. Those who bought wisely made their fortune.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
“We’ll all be rooned,” said Hanrahan,
In accents most forlorn,
Outside the church, ere Mass began,
One frosty Sunday morn.
The congregation stood about,
Coat-collars to the ears,
And talked of stock, and crops, and drought,
As it had done for years.
“It’s looking crook,” said Daniel Croke;
“Bedad, it’s cruke, me lad,
For never since the banks went broke
Has seasons been so bad.”
“It’s dry, all right,” said young O’Neil,
With which astute remark
He squatted down upon his heel
And chewed a piece of bark.
And so around the chorus ran
“It’s keepin’ dry, no doubt.”
“We’ll all be rooned,” said Hanrahan,
“Before the year is out.”
“The crops are done; ye’ll have your work
To save one bag of grain;
From here way out to Back-o’-Bourke
They’re singin’ out for rain.
“They’re singin’ out for rain,” he said,
“And all the tanks are dry.”
The congregation scratched its head,
And gazed around the sky.
“There won’t be grass, in any case,
Enough to feed an ass;
There’s not a blade on Casey’s place
As I came down to Mass.”
“If rain don’t come this month,” said Dan,
And cleared his throat to speak -
“We’ll all be rooned,” said Hanrahan,
“If rain don’t come this week.”
A heavy silence seemed to steal
On all at this remark;
And each man squatted on his heel,
And chewed a piece of bark.
“We want an inch of rain, we do,”
O’Neil observed at last;
But Croke “maintained” we wanted two
To put the danger past.
“If we don’t get three inches, man,
Or four to break this drought,
We’ll all be rooned,” said Hanrahan,
“Before the year is out.”
In God’s good time down came the rain;
And all the afternoon
On iron roof and window-pane
It drummed a homely tune.
And through the night it pattered still,
And lightsome, gladsome elves
On dripping spout and window-sill
Kept talking to themselves.
It pelted, pelted all day long,
A-singing at its work,
Till every heart took up the song
Way out to Back-o’-Bourke.
And every creek a banker ran,
And dams filled overtop;
“We’ll all be rooned,” said Hanrahan,
“If this rain doesn’t stop.”
And stop it did, in God’s good time;
And spring came in to fold
A mantle o’er the hills sublime
Of green and pink and gold.
And days went by on dancing feet,
With harvest-hopes immense,
And laughing eyes beheld the wheat
Nid-nodding o’er the fence.
And, oh, the smiles on every face,
As happy lad and lass
Through grass knee-deep on Casey’s place
Went riding down to Mass.
While round the church in clothes genteel
Discoursed the men of mark,
And each man squatted on his heel,
And chewed his piece of bark.
“There’ll be bush-fires for sure, me man,
There will, without a doubt;
We’ll all be rooned,” said Hanrahan,
“Before the year is out.”
John O’Brien, Around the booree log and other verses
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Yeah billy, I found that on Google. I couldn’t be arsed reading it closely merely so I could discover what the fuck you were on about.
Either tell me in plain English, or forget it. I don’t really care, either way.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Well Ruth the reason for all the global bailout activity is because the banking system is critical to capitalism. Capitalism can’t operate without them.
Therefore, the govt has to keep them functioning, one way or the other.
Just as one example of how serious this is, the three largest banks in the US – JPMorgan, Bank of America and CitiGroup, all have liabilities that exceed their total assets by factors of between 5 and 7.
This means that the three largest banks in the US either go out of business or they’re nationalised. There’s no third alternative. If they go out of business that means total loss for all their depositors and all the creditors and all their shareholders.
That’s just three banks in one country. It’s not a small issue.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Sue Bradford is Hanrahan.
So we are all doomed.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
reid
“Well Ruth the reason for all the global bailout activity is because the banking system is critical to capitalism. ”
Perhaps this should now be rewritten to say “the banking system is critical OF capitalism.” Seeing as they are becoming an arm of the state and all …
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
The banks are still well capitalised. They will not be nationalised.
Report back to me in 12 months when I have made a fortune!
As I said this investment is not for the risk averse.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Well AG, it’s really fractional reserve banking and fiat money that’s critical of capitalism.
Banks are fine but like anything they can be misused and misdirected and that can be either a temporary issue as in people have not operated them correctly or it can be fundamental as in the banks themselves are built on sand. Unfortunately in the case of this GFC its exposing the fundamental flaws and that’s why personally, I’m calling this a structural GFC and not a cyclical one. Which is all most unfortunate for those of us who prefer stability in our jobs, lifestyle, geopolitical relations, etc.
Vote:February 28th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
“The banks are still well capitalised. They will not be nationalised.”
Which banks are you talking about Ruth?
Our ones?
Have a look at Phil’s 1:34 and then think about which Aus banks own which NZ banks.
Personally I wouldn’t touch banking shares with a barge pole, I’ve had all my money in gold, silver and coltan for a very long time now.
Vote: