The Pope’s reinstated Holocaust Denying Bishop

February 4th, 2009 at 2:00 pm by David Farrar

German Chancellor Angela Merkel joins the long iist of people criticising Pope Benedict’s decision to reinstate the Holocaust-denying bishop Richard Williamson to the fold.

It is an appalling decision. Bishop Williamson is a fully fledged anti-semite. Some examples:

  • believes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are accurate
  • Jews are aiming for world domination
  • the Holocuast never happened says “There was not one Jew killed by the gas chambers. It was all lies, lies, lies!”
  • The Sept 11 attacks were an inside job
  • Has been a guest of David Irving’s
  • Says that Stalin, not Hitler, was to blame for WWII
  • Talks of Jews preparing the Anti-Christ’s throne in Jerusalem
  • Says Jews used the Holocaust lies to extort money from the German Government

The Bishop has expressed regret for the controversy, but has not retracted any of his statements. Oh, he also believes girls should not go to university saying “true universities are for ideas, ideas are not for true girls, so true universities are not for true girls”.

The Pope is from Germany himself. He saw the horrors of Hitler as a young boy, forced into the Hitler Youth against his will. It is incredibly disappointing that he can not see how offensive his acceptance of Bishop Williamson back into the Church is. The signal it sends is that the Roman Catholic Church condones anti-semitism, even if this is not the case.

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101 Responses to “The Pope’s reinstated Holocaust Denying Bishop”

  1. Danyl Mclauchlan (1,065 comments) says:

    Talks of Jews preparing the Anti-Christ’s throne in Jerusalem

    That’s a disgusting half truth.

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  2. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    Well, I’m game to defend hiim. I just don’t understand your problem with this, nor do I understand the witch hunt around anything like this.

    So he can believe that the bible is true in every respect, and that’s OK but to believe any other book is true is wrong?

    He can believe that the Jews are god’s chosen people, and that god often smote their enemies and gaver them their enemies’ land, and that’s OK, but to believe that might lead the Jews to seek world domination is not OK?

    He can believe that a talking snake brought evil in to the world, and that’s OK, but to believe Sept 11 attacks were an inside job is not OK?

    He can sit down with thieves and prostitues, and that’s OK, but to be a guest of david Irving is not OK?

    He can believe it was Eve’s fault that Adam sinned, and that’s OK, but to belive anyone other than Hitler was responsible for WW2 is not OK?

    Why do you think that some of his beliefs are not OK, and yet you fail to criticise him on the core belief’s that make him susceptible to believing anything?

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  3. bearhunter (859 comments) says:

    MNIJ: He is allowed to believe whatever he wants as a private individual. However, what the Pope has implied by reinstating him is that such beliefs as Jews preparing the anti-christ’s throne in Jerusalem correspond to Catholic belief, which is bullshit. If he wants to remain as a member of the Catholic heirarchy, he should be orthodox in his beliefs or quit. However, the Pope has apparently decided that to be a raving anti-semite is absolutely reconcilable with Catholic teaching, and I can’t think of too many Catholics who would agree with that outside of Mel Gibson.

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  4. dimmocrazy (286 comments) says:

    It could also signal that the Roman Catholic Church actually practices what it preaches, namely forgiveness, and is also capable of maintaining within its very own ranks people with diametrically opposed viewpoints from what passes for accepted dogma. Perhaps we should all be willing to cooperate and be inclusive with people that hold views that are radically different from ours, as long as those views do not lead to activities that actually harm others (that is harm in other than a metaphysical sense). Perhaps exactly this approach could lead to debate on objective facts and merits rather than on emotions, perceptions and dogmas, which always lead to expulsion, extremes and group forming on the basis of philosophical rather than practical considerations.

    [DPF: The Holocaust did a lot of harm. 6,000,000 or so dead. He denies it happened. This is not a case of respecting other viewpoints. The Bishop effectively preaches hate and intolerance towards Jews. Your call for tolerance and understandign is in fact a call for tolerating hatred and bigotry]

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  5. Rakaia George (313 comments) says:

    Well, having rabidly anti-semitic, mysogynist fuckwit clergy seems to be working for Islam – perhaps the Pope’s just decided to follow their strategy?

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  6. Hoolian (220 comments) says:

    I have to say that this is one of DPF’s finest posts on Catholicism. It doesn’t resort to lame-ass Catholic-bashing or simplify the facts so they are disjointed or out of context. Well done, DPF.

    Speaking as a Catholic, I’m not totally sure why the Pope has re-communicated this Bishop back into the Church. I think he feels the reunion with the CC would be a way to change the guy.

    As Archbishop of Boston Cardinal Sean O’Malley said: Expressing deep sorrow at the pain Jews have felt because of the bishop’s statements, he [O'Malley] clarified that the removal of the excommunications does not regularize the breakaway “traditionalist” bishops but opens the way for further dialogue.

    Notwithstanding the above, I can assure everyone (particluarly those leaping at the chance to give the Catholics a good going over) that it is not CC teachings to deny the Holocaust, nor any of the other points listed above.

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  7. dime (9,473 comments) says:

    the Pope was working at a concentration camp wasnt he? surely he remembers.

    the pope just loves to make himself look like a tool.

    like beofre xmas when he said gay people were as dangerous to humanity as climate change.. how to set off the entire left in one easy step!

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  8. getstaffed (9,189 comments) says:

    Jack, you confuse the right of someone to hold paradoxical views on theoretical beliefs, with the right of a leader to deny a historical genocide that has been proven as fact.

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  9. flyingkiwi (16 comments) says:

    Let’s look at what Pope Benedict *actually* did rather than what the media would have us believe.

    Pope Benedict lifted the excommunications of 4 Bishops belonging to the Society of St Pius X. Why were they excommunicated? Because they were ordained Bishops without the approval of the Pope (Paul, I believe). They have not been “reinstated to the fold” as you claim and in fact the SSPX is still outside of the Catholic Church.

    How the views of any of the Bishops is relevant to the lifting of their excommunication (due to “illegal” ordinations) is beyond me. Perhaps a proper understanding of these issues would benefit those who wish to report on them.

    [DPF: But the Pope, knowing the views of the Bishop, could simply not rescind the excommunication. The Pope is a smart man, and could weigh up the benefits to the Church from rescinding compared to the detriments of having an anti-semitic nutter back in. The Pope chose unity as being more important than fighting anti-semitism. The same sad decision making process occured in WWII]

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  10. bharmer (686 comments) says:

    Holocaust denial is repugnant, in my opinion, yet in normal circumstances it would not be grounds for excommunication according to the laws of the church. I am sure there would be a number of other holocaust deniers, maybe even some in similarly high office, who have not been excommunicated. This man was excommunicated for something quite different (denying the primacy of the Pope, if I remember well). If he has resiled from that denial, then regardless of how repugnant many of us find his views, there is no basis in church law for his continued exclusion. In fact his re-inclusion would be considered redemptive, and a possible path to repentence.

    As a Catholic, I am embarrassed by this man. However, I believe that the church, like Jesus, is there precisely for sinners. There is no requirement for memnership that its members should not be pig-ignorant on matters of historical fact or political wisdom.

    [DPF: I'm sorry but I do not accept this. Even though he has resiled from his views on the primacy of the Pope, he still took part in an ordination that was grounds for excommunication. The Pope could have presumably never removed the excommunication because of that act. He chose to.]

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  11. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    getsaffed, I don’t care what he believes, but when one suspends reason, denies evidence and believes in fairytales, then one is prone to believing anything. Even the unbelieveable.

    As to “…right of a leader to deny a historical genocide that has been proven as fact.” it’s good that in NZ we do not have a legislated history and people are free to believe in whatever they like.

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  12. bharmer (686 comments) says:

    # bearhunter (358) Vote: Add rating 2 Subtract rating 1 Says:
    February 4th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
    “.. However, the Pope has apparently decided that to be a raving anti-semite is absolutely reconcilable with Catholic teaching, and I can’t think of too many Catholics who would agree with that outside of Mel Gibson.”

    Two thoughts on that:
    Catholics are as prone to stupidity and sin as anyone else, and people have committed rape and murder without being excommunicated. That doesn’t mean rape and murder are OK.
    The second point is the the church is not, and never has been a democracy, so even if Mel disagreed as well, the pope is not obliged to take his view into account.

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  13. Socrates (86 comments) says:

    “as a young boy, forced into the Hitler Youth against his will.” I have always doubted this against my will claim. His actions and teachings as an adult give greater weight to this doubt. In my view the College of Cardinals have voted a Nazi into the primacy and this will do damage to the Catholic Church. All of John Paul II’s good works are steadily being eroded.

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  14. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    Has anyone seen ratzinger’s birth certificate?

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  15. big bruv (13,334 comments) says:

    Come on DPF, this guy might be crazy but at least he got one thing right…

    “believes girls should not go to university”

    Who can argue with that?

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  16. TimG_Oz (917 comments) says:

    Hey Jack,

    How’s your ethical crusade to convert all religious people to non-believer’s going? Had to kill many people for your ethical beliefs yet?

    Thanks,

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  17. Socrates (86 comments) says:

    Though it does look like Bishop Williamson is about to split from Society of St Pius X. and go off on his own tangent with his nuttier followers. So maybe he get excommunicated again.

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  18. Socrates (86 comments) says:

    “believes girls should not go to university”
    Who can argue with that?
    Neither should boys.

    Fortunately last time I was there I only saw groups of men and women. ;-)

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  19. bearhunter (859 comments) says:

    “Catholics are as prone to stupidity and sin as anyone else, and people have committed rape and murder without being excommunicated. That doesn’t mean rape and murder are OK.
    The second point is the the church is not, and never has been a democracy, so even if Mel disagreed as well, the pope is not obliged to take his view into account.”

    Fair enough points. I am sure there are ordinary Catholics who also deny the Holocaust, the difference being that they are not bishops. While Benedict does not have to please anyone but himself (being supreme temporal viceroy and all that) I would have thought he would have been more aware of the rather obvious PR pitfalls involved in this sort of behaviour. And the effect on “his” faithful, of course, who are now presented with yet another reason to question the unquestionable authority of the heirarchy.

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  20. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    One of the (recent) historical problems the catholic church has is the ongoing repercussions of vatican II. The latin mass was effectively outlawed at this time – why i dont know – some crazy idea about getting ‘modern’. What the movers of this idea didnt see was the apparent stupidity of this move. The mass is said in english and spanish and portugese and german and , and, and etc. So what the fuck was wrong with latin – although a ‘dead’ language – it is a major contributor to english and if you are in any way inetrested in science or want to understand english, a knowledge of latin is very, very helpful.

    After many years the use of latin has been bought back. The use of the latin mass at the celebration of the new Pope was no doubt the end of any craziness about what language one praised god – being as he (no doubt about it – HE) was all powerful and Im sure could understand almost any language.

    Reconciliation within the catholic church Im sure is seen more important than upsetting a few people outside it.

    And anyway IM GETTING A BIT TIRED OF THE PROTESTS THAT JEWS THROW UP EVERYTIME SOMEONE SAYS SOMETHING THAT THEY DONT LIKE. Im starting to get a inkling of the feeling that the germans had back in the 1930′s. If the jews carried on then like they do today then one can start to understand that ideas like “these buggers are becoming a presistant troublesome noise” could easily become a common thought!!

    [DPF: My God, you just sympathised with the Nazis on the basis that the Jews may have whined a lot and hence deserved it]

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  21. bearhunter (859 comments) says:

    “The latin mass was effectively outlawed at this time – why i dont know – some crazy idea about getting ‘modern’. What the movers of this idea didnt see was the apparent stupidity of this move. ”

    Very good point. While I’m no longer a massgoer, the bells and smells aspect of Catholicism was always fun and it was helpful for the travelling left-footer as well. Instead of hearing the mass in some heathen lingo you didn’t understand, you heard it in Latin, which you also didn’t understand but – crucially – you didn’t understand in the same language as you didn’t understand it at home, if you get my drift. Also, I think the drift away from the church since Vatican 2 has a fair bit to do with people being told – in language they cannot fail to understand – that they are sinners, their lifestyles are wicked and they should stop enjoying themselves immediately. And all that followed up by some bloke passing the hat around…

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  22. Michael E (274 comments) says:

    The Pope was working at a concentration camp wasnt he?

    Pope Benedict was drafted into the German Army at age 15 and manned an anti-aircraft gun. He deserted before the end of the war, risking being shot on the spot. His family were very Catholic, and saw the worship of Hitler as being contary to their beliefs, so joining the Hitler Youth was against their will. However they did not publicly oppose the Nazis so avoided sanction.

    I will say that allowing Richard Williamson back into the Catholic Church is an insult to Saint Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein), who was a Catholic Carmelite Nun killed in a Auschwitz Gas Chamber – for being born Jewish.

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  23. vibenna (305 comments) says:

    I don’t know about the “forgiveness” thing. The Catholic church is very good at forgiving itself, while continuing to spread hatred and intolerance against homosexuals, women, and now Jews.

    Forgiveness is as forgiveness does. This intolerant Church fails that test.

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  24. sbk (308 comments) says:

    Bearhunter just for U…

    “Deus meus, ex toto corde poenitet me omnium meorum peccatorum, eaque detestor, quia peccando, non solum poenas a Te iuste statutas promeritus sum, sed praesertim quia offendi Te, summum bonum, ac dignum qui super omnia diligaris. Ideo firmiter propono, adiuvante gratia Tua, de cetero me non peccaturum peccandique occasiones proximas fugiturum. Amen.”

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  25. peterwn (3,168 comments) says:

    That has been a big criticism of the Catholics. You can do what you like then pop into the confessional and be absolved for a minor penance (except in former East Germany – the authorities bugged the confessionals).

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  26. Murray (8,838 comments) says:

    And the pope was forced into the hitler youth?

    Thats funny a lot of other simply chose not to join. Might be time to review this popes position on a few things with a more critical eye.

    The German Shepard may not be all he would have us believe.

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  27. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    No Tim, I don’t need to kill people – its only the religious who feel that need.

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  28. Nigel (511 comments) says:

    I actually think this is one of the two biggest threats facing Israel, likely the biggest Iran being the other, albeit lesser one .
    The way I see it Israel is fine as long as mainstream Europe/USA supports it ( You could argue Western Democracy ), but if the anti semitism that floats below the surface especially in Europe is allowed to grow by actions like this combined with a bit of shooting itself in the foot ( West Bank settlements, right wing zealots, disproportionate retaliation ) it’s not a good situation.
    The other more positive possibility is that the real loser is the Vatican & Roman Catholicism, in other words Pope Benedict does for the Vatican’s respect & profile, what GW Bush did to the US’s, though as with GW Bush, it’s likely to cause considerable collateral damage.
    So whilst I do think people can be a little quick to claim anti-semitism, this action is appalling with serious implications & frankly to suggest as Barry did that Jew’s are whiners is disgusting, time to visit a museum with a Holocaust exhibition, I went to one in London & I’ll remember it to my grave, I remember the photo’s & the shoes whenever the camps are mentioned.

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  29. TimG_Oz (917 comments) says:

    “its only the religious who feel that need.”

    Hmmm … and the communists….. xenophobia knows no bounds …..

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  30. radar (319 comments) says:

    Between the years of rampant and covered-up paedophilia in the Catholic Church and now a holocaust-denying Bishop they just don’t seem to be able to clean up their act do they.

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  31. TimG_Oz (917 comments) says:

    I actually think this is one of the two biggest threats facing Israel, likely the biggest Iran being the other, albeit lesser one .

    No wonder Iran organised the holocaust denial conference….

    Time to visit a museum with a Holocaust exhibition

    Timely for NZers
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/4837121a11.html

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  32. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    In reply to Rakaia George
    “Well, having rabidy anti-semitic, mysogynist fuckwit clergy seems to be working for Islam – perhaps the Pope’s just decided to follow their strategy?” I think you may just have hit the nail on the head.

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  33. bearhunter (859 comments) says:

    Grates, SBK. Now if you could get them to change the namby-pamby sacrament of reconciliation back to the much more scary-sounding confession, I might be tempted to set foot inside a chapel again.

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  34. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    DPF – no I am not sympathising with the Nazis (although they did have some good ideas. They were the first lot who ever made the Dutch railways run on time!! Their technique left a bit to be desired, but theres no doubt that it worked. they fired half of the workers and then told the rest “make it run on time or well get the other half back and you lot will get a free railway trip – to our re-education camps!).

    The reality is that there will always be some who question the result of the concentration camps – just like there will always be some who doubt darwinism (and really believe that the world was created 5000 years ago), and there will always be the ‘Flat earth society’. Just like we regularly hear the statement to maori -”forget the victim mentality otherwsie you will never progress”, then I will quite happily tell any jew who wants to hear “forget the victim mentality, weve all heard it enough times”.

    In my visits to israel Ive always been amazed at the level of “victimhood” that pervades that country. They are always saying that ‘the world doesnt understand us”, and with trade Israel heavily trades on the european guilt complex. Israel has special access to the EU for perishable goods and they get enormous military aid from uncle Sam. Now they have used the holocaust factor in all of these arrangements. In europe its all “you owe us” and in the US its all “You didnt help us” – and good on them for using everything they can to get trade aceess – but when they do that, it removes the matter out of the sympathy basket and into the competitive basket. When the UK targets NZ food with airmiles but they dont do the same with israeli food, then its time to take the gloves off.

    Yes – lots of jews got killed in the concentrations camps, but not as many as the number of russians that stalin killed, but then I guess russians dont matter do they……………., nor was it anywhere near the number of people that Mao starved to death…..but they were only chinese werent they.

    [DPF: Barry if you don't know the difference between Stalin's and Mao's evils and Hitlers, that is said. They were all incredibly evil and reviled. But the Holocaust is unique in that the state systemically tried to eradicate from existence every person of Jewish descent. Did not matter where you lived. Did not matter what your religion was. Did not matter your politics. Did not even matter if you supported Hitler. If you had Jewish blood over the required amount, you were sub-human and to be killed.]

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  35. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    Tim, I’d go to the travelling circus, but only if I could see the original of “Anne Frank’s diary” – I understand the original has never been sighted and that the copy claimed to be her diary is written in ball point.

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  36. Murray (8,838 comments) says:

    No barry it is one story you have NOT heard enough of and never will.

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  37. TimG_Oz (917 comments) says:

    Maybe check this out if you are unsure.

    http://www.annefrank.org/content.asp?PID=794&LID=2

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  38. Atheist1 (174 comments) says:

    Well, given that the pope is a disgusting creature that makes statements along the lines of homosexuality being as much of a danger to mankind as a warming planet, is anybody really surprised???

    that the statements and actions of such a horrible specimen of mankind are even taken account of by anyone is beyond me.

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  39. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    Sorry DPF, but the holocaust is not all that unique at all. There have been many other attempts at wiping out an entire racial group. Many of Africa’s troubles are based on one race removing another. Are you unaware of the Kurds?

    No, the only way in which the holocaust can be seen as unique is in the way it is used to stifle debate, to deflect criticism and to justify the unjustifiable.

    [DPF: Wrong again. First of all most conflicts in Africa are territorial. Two tribes within the one country battling for supremacy or land. Secondly there is a huge difference between tribal warfare and what was a modern society deciding to legally eliminate people of a particular bloodline. They actually passed laws mandating who was to be exterminated. But keep up the attempt to portray the Holocaust as nothing special]

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  40. bharmer (686 comments) says:

    Speaking of my guess as to why the bishop was reconciled with the church after excommunication DPF responded [I'm sorry but I do not accept this. Even though he has resiled from his views on the primacy of the Pope, he still took part in an ordination that was grounds for excommunication. The Pope could have presumably never removed the excommunication because of that act. He chose to.]

    DPF, one of the main thrusts of Catholicism is forgiveness, even though it is sometimes a bit slow on this. If a man is repentant in regard to a particular offence (being illegally ordained as bishop by Marcel Lefevbre), then the pope must honour that repentance. He can’t withhold it on personal whim or dislike.

    Your position seems to be that, even though he has met the condition for reintegration (which is related solely to the excommunication), it should be withheld because he has other personal flaws. I am unaware of any respectable legal system that works like that. Plenty of ratbags are turned loose from prison once they have served their term, even though they are still ratbags.

    Though it is not my place to apologise for this miserable man, I deeply regret the pain that he has caused to you and all who were offended by him.

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  41. llew (1,533 comments) says:

    Tim, I’d go to the travelling circus, but only if I could see the original of “Anne Frank’s diary” – I understand the original has never been sighted and that the copy claimed to be her diary is written in ball point.

    MNJ – I presume that’s tongue in cheek, but even if it isn’t, it IS possible the diary was written in ballpoint because they’ve been around since well before WWII

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_point

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  42. Atheist1 (174 comments) says:

    Bharmer “one of the main thrusts of Catholicism is forgiveness”

    OMG are you taking the proverbial?????? What planet are you on?? All Godbotherers are pretty intolerant and unforgiving of “sinners” but Catholics are the worst!! Repent and ye shall be saved, otherwise rot in hell horrible sinners!

    Yay, can’t wait, it’s going to be such a party down there if you’re right and I’m wrong.

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  43. Scribe (84 comments) says:

    Others have said it already, but being stupid isn’t grounds for excommunication.

    This bishop was kicked out after he was ordained against the explicit orders of the Pope at the time, JP2. All Benedict did was (essentially) reverse that decision. Williamson isn’t a bishop in the Roman Catholic Church, and never will be. He’s just been allowed to become a Catholic again.

    Can’t be bothered addressing the other tired anti-Catholic nonsense on the thread.

    It’s amazing how Catholic-haters are so interested in what the Church and/or the Pope says and does.

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  44. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    llew, Tim has provided a useful reference, whereas yours proves nothing. It is highly unlikely that any Jew in Europe would have had a ballpoint pen in 1944/45 – there were none, they were being sold in Argentina then.

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  45. llew (1,533 comments) says:

    llew, Tim has provided a useful reference, whereas yours proves nothing.

    Umm… not trying to prove anything, just saying that’s all. It IS highly unlikely that Anne Frank had a ballpoint. Not impossible though.

    I’ll look at Tim’s reference now, but I’d love to see the source of your claim the diary was in ballpoint (because like, I don’t believe it).

    And thanks, Tim’s reference covers it nicely.

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  46. slijmbal (1,216 comments) says:

    Brought up as an “Irish” catholic, altar boy for 7 years and went to a Jesuit school – luckily now I’m a born again atheist.

    My exposure to catholicism is out of date but forgiveness isn’t really a theme I remember – I remember being told my protestant mates were heathen and would go to hell when they died – I remember being told if I died with a mortal sin on my soul (no matter how good a person I was previously) I would go to hell – missing mass on Sunday or not going to confession during Lent were both mortal sins. My aunts weren’t allowed contraception (“every sperm is sacred” is true), My dad needed permission from the archbishop to marry my mum and made to convert (he was protestant) etc Probably one of the least nice religions.

    However, removing excommunication is not welcoming back to the fold. Being excommunicated means you go to hell when you die. All he did was remove that sentence – still a stupid thing to do without explaining he’s a nut job and isn’t helping the catholic church’s ludicrously bad PR. Mind you having seen many an alcoholic priest but managed to avoid the kiddie fiddlers (more common amongst residential programs) I don’t see this as a particularly admirable religion to promote (if you are a believer).

    Probably deserves the reaction but not accurate (if that’s not too Irish :) )

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  47. Scribe (84 comments) says:

    Just want to re-post these very lucid comments from bharmer, addressed to DPF:

    Your position seems to be that, even though he has met the condition for reintegration (which is related solely to the excommunication), it should be withheld because he has other personal flaws. I am unaware of any respectable legal system that works like that. Plenty of ratbags are turned loose from prison once they have served their term, even though they are still ratbags.

    Well said.

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  48. dimmocrazy (286 comments) says:

    [DPF: The Holocaust did a lot of harm. 6,000,000 or so dead. He denies it happened. This is not a case of respecting other viewpoints. The Bishop effectively preaches hate and intolerance towards Jews. Your call for tolerance and understandign is in fact a call for tolerating hatred and bigotry]

    My call was not for tolerance of hatred and bigotry at all, but for communication on objective facts and merits without immediately assigning every topic and viewpoint into convenient little boxes, which are then labeled according to one’s pre-determined dogmas. The stupifying effect of that approach is made all the worse when this is applied to a person and all of his/her views on the basis of one specific viewpoint only. That is precisely what hatred and bigotry are about, so it seems you have some problem avoiding that yourself. I was merely pointing out that nobody’s views or philosophy should be allowed to lead to an entitlement to do actual harm to others, but that every viewpoint itself should be legitimate to be held and to be argued, especially when supported by objective facts and a modicum of reason.

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  49. Atheist1 (174 comments) says:

    Dimmo crazy – every viewpoint itself should be legitimate to be held and to be argued, especially when supported by objective facts and a modicum of reason.

    Umm that’s a somewhat ironic statement. You’re talking about a bloke who believes in something totally unable to be supported by objective facts and a modicum of reason in the first place!

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  50. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    dimm, maybe its all in DPF’s genes.

    http://www.city-journal.org/2009/19_1_dna.html

    “But beyond routine tastes, almost everything has some genetic basis. And that includes politics.”

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  51. fishe (143 comments) says:

    Why are we not all pointing out the sheer ridiculousness of the very concept of excommunication!?

    Of course that leads to pointing out the ridiculousness of the concept in this the year 2009 of the mighty catholic church empire, the pope as a position of authority on everything…and…of course, religion in general.

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  52. iago (19 comments) says:

    If it means people stop listening to the Catholic Church, it’s not a bad thing.

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  53. Tauhei Notts (1,616 comments) says:

    Would bloggers please refer to the Jewish Holocaust. There have been any number of holocausts in human history. The Jewish one is one of many. Most people have not heard of the myriad of holocausts; the Jewish media have been very efficient in this matter. About as efficient as those appalling concentration camp managers who networked about time management and resource effectiveness when murdering innocent Jews.
    But there have been many holocausts over time.

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  54. Atheist1 (174 comments) says:

    Fishe – I was trying to!

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  55. Scribe (84 comments) says:

    Why are we not all pointing out the sheer ridiculousness of the very concept of excommunication!?

    If Helen Clark had said to a minister in her government “Don’t do X, it’s a direct breach of the Labour Party constitution”, and the minister said “up yours” and did it anyway, how long would that minister have remained a member of the Cabinet — or even the party?

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  56. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    [DPF: The Holocaust did a lot of harm. 6,000,000 or so dead. He denies it happened. This is not a case of respecting other viewpoints. The Bishop effectively preaches hate and intolerance towards Jews. Your call for tolerance and understandign is in fact a call for tolerating hatred and bigotry]

    And let no one forget that the Catholic church helped or tried to help Gestapo bastards who took part in the killing of kiwis.
    No wonder I dislike all bloody religions, too many who partake believe in my religion right or wrong putting their religion before their countries in many cases

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  57. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    DPF – you say:
    But the Holocaust is unique in that the state systemically tried to eradicate from existence every person of Jewish descent.

    Nothing new in this – and its not even the latest attempt. All you need to do is replace the word ‘jewish’ with one of many other groups and youve got a list of similar events. Genocide is nothing new. Its started before the bible was written, but is probably first reliably recorded in the bible and it has continued right thur until modern times.

    Tribalism in africa is the modern version – the tribe in goverment simply elliminates the opposition – the most recent being Burundi (No i dont know the various tribal names)
    All we need to do in europe is look at the balkans – the only time one group hasnt been trying to elliminate the others is when Tito was in charge.
    Agreed Stalin was even handed about who he killed, but prior to him his earlier revolutionaries tried their very best to elliminate white russians from the face of the earth.

    Probably the most famous were the crusades where anyone who wasnt christian was in for the chop (and yes the governments were mostly bishops ie: the state)

    No, the jews do not have any special ownership of the genocide victim handle. They were one of the latest large groups, but they are by no means the largest. However they have been a target of genocide probably more than any other group. My recollection is that they werent exactly a hellve a popular after the death of JC.
    In the year 70 (all AD) they became a target, then again in 113, 132, 135, 306, 615, 1097, 1146, 1230, 1298, and so on throught to the 1930′s. They have certainly attracted the attention of the worlds ratbags much more effectively than any other group. Wonder why? first thought is that it takes two to tango.

    [DPF: And again you suggest the dirty Jews deserve the Holocaust]

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  58. Jack5 (4,613 comments) says:

    An anti-semite who is a Christian cleric must be perpetually tormented and torn up by the indisputable fact he cannot reconcile to: Jesus was a Jew.

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  59. ZenTiger (425 comments) says:

    Where do I start?

    Firstly, I think “Bishop” Williamson is mad as a cut snake (I have never met him, the media may exaggerate etc, but if the reports are only half true, I stand by this comment).

    Williamson is part of SSPX (The Society of St Pius X), essentially a breakaway group from the Roman Catholic Church founded in 1970.

    I think Williamson is wrong about the holocaust and he has also referred to the Pope as the tool of Satan or some such nonsense.

    This move by the Pope was part of an attempt to bring the SSPX back into the fold, as it were.

    SSPX are around 500 priests in over 80 countries, with thousands of members. That is who the Pope is trying to reach.

    I’ll repeat this bit, it has relevance:

    SSPX are around 500 priests in over 80 countries, with thousands of members. That is who the Pope is trying to reach.

    As for SSPX Bishop Williamson, I think he will take care of the issue himself. Having called the Pope a servant of Satan, and spouted nonsense about Jews and the holocaust, it is widely expected that he will in turn break from the SSPX and take his loyal followers with him.

    How many people that is, remains to be seen, but the remainders will be most welcome in the Church and the Pope has held out an olive branch, offering forgiveness and love to not only the SSPX members, but to a wayward priest that would call him a servant of Satan.

    Also, he has declared himself a Bishop and I understand that this is not approved by the Pope, and that he remains “suspended a divinas” by the Vatican and cannot claim to actually be a Bishop.

    This lends support to my hunch he will lead a breakaway group, because ultimately, he will not accept the authority of the Pope.

    He has had the excommunication lifted, because it was successfully argued that his actions did not support excommunication as per canon law.

    All the other issues remain unresolved and unforgiven.

    The Pope may well have understood this event would be misreported and mis-understood around the world by many people. It doesn’t make the act itself as evil as many of the pundits here try to point out.

    I don’t expect the same news sources to also note that the Pope has effectively been called the anti-Christ and/or a tool of Satan by Williamson, but it would only change the headlines to “Williamson only half crazy.”

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  60. ZenTiger (425 comments) says:

    As a side note, when people discuss “the holocaust” the figure of 6 million is bandied about as if that was the number of jews that were killed in the gas chambers of the concentration camps (mainly) in Poland.

    Actually, the numbers of people killed in German concentration camp were around 6 million total, and perhaps half were jews, and more than just gas chambers were used.

    The six million figure is arrived at by totaling the deaths of Jews in around 30 countries during the war.

    What makes it particularly evil is the genocide factor.

    Other groups were also singled out for deliberate extermination too. As Tahui Notts mentions, there have been many other holocausts (translated from the Jewish word Shoah), and all must be remembered.

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  61. TimG_Oz (917 comments) says:

    Wonder why? first thought is that it takes two to tango.

    This logic of barry’s pretty much equates to the following statement: Women have been getting raped since the dawn of time. But they aren’t the only ones – Men also get raped sometimes. Maybe it takes two to tango, and it’s in part or half the fault of womankind.

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  62. Fletch (6,032 comments) says:

    [The same sad decision making process occured in WWII] DPF

    [And let no one forget that the Catholic church helped or tried to help Gestapo bastards who took part in the killing of kiwis.] grumpoldhori

    I hope neither of you are referring to Pope Pius during WWII?
    By all accounts he saved more Jews than Schindler. You only have to read the testimony of Jews (and the New York Times editorials) from that era and onwards praising the Pope.

    And how did the facts get so warped? Because Rolf Hochhuth (who was in the Hitler youth) wrote a FICTIONAL play called “The Deputy” basically slurring the Pope’s name. Maybe years from now people will think the Da Vinci Code is true, as well…

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  63. reid (15,981 comments) says:

    Other groups were also singled out for deliberate extermination too. As Tahui Notts mentions, there have been many other holocausts (translated from the Jewish word Shoah), and all must be remembered.

    Yes, ZenTiger, they all must be.

    However, the voice that shouts the loudest and longest re: this in modern times, is the Jewish voice. Anti-semitism is a fact. However it’s been used up by zionists to suppress legitimate and I underline legitimate, criticism of the actions of the State of Israel, in recent times (since WWII).

    Many people have differing definitions of zionism. Mine is, which I ran by DPF a few years ago and obtained agreement thereon: someone who puts the interests of the State of Israel above those of the country they reside in/are citizens of.

    Everyone who knows anything about politics knows there is considerable and disproportionate influence exercised by zionists over the US political system. With the odd exception that wasn’t well publicised, Walt and Mearsheimer’s book on this subject was not addressed logically, but emotively. They were accused by zionists of anti-semitism. They put up a lot of good arguments, and they were labelled anti-semitic for so doing. Why? If it’s true, it’s true. Jimmy Carter has also received the same treatment.

    There comes a time when objective people who think need to speak out against propaganda lest the masses become deluded by the 6 o’clock news take on unthinkingly repeating events without analysis.

    IMO, this time has come re: the oft-flung anti-semitism accusation.

    Personally, I think the Jewish people suffer from a collective post-traumatic-stress-syndrome as a result of their WWII experience and this has transmitted itself down to the current generation. This is why they react they way they do. It’s tragic, and no doubt some will be offended at that comment. But their behaviour isn’t rational, and that interpretation explains their hyper-sensitivity to criticism and their willingness to use every available tool to keep their pain in the public mind.

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  64. reid (15,981 comments) says:

    Fletch, it’s well known that the Catholic Church setup the ‘ratlines’ which allowed thousands of wanted Nazi criminals to escapte to South America. I imagine that’s one of the factors to which Grumpy was referring.

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  65. Ruth (178 comments) says:

    Thank you DPF for posting this. The catholic church is moving back to medieval times with the ultra-conservative Benedict.

    These authoritarians see democracy and secular modernity as the causes of their loss of power and prestige.

    Every time I read some anti-Semitic screed or other, I want to point out to the author/writer/whoever that Jesus was a Jew. He wasn’t a Christian. He was a Jew.

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  66. Ruth (178 comments) says:

    And as an aside I have just had a look at the usual right-wing blogs — not one has mentioned this, in spite of the huffing and puffing over Gaza and the Unquestioning Support of Anything the State of Israel Does.

    Make of that what you will.

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  67. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Pope?

    More like DOPE.

    Thank you, thank you. Tip your waitresses. Try the veal. I’ll be here all week.

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  68. ZenTiger (425 comments) says:

    How about the unusual right wing blogs, Ruth? Such as NZ Conservative, which discussed it (with a fair bit more accuracy) about a week ago.

    My comment above is a reasonable start, and covers the fact that the Pope is trying to draw back thousands of SSPX members, that Williamson is NOT a bishop in the Catholic Church, and with the excommunication lifted, needs to make the next move, and accept the authority of the Pope, repent and ask forgiveness.

    He is more likely, having called the Pope the tool of Satan, more than likely to break away from the SSPX and this gives the thousands of members the opportunity to free themselves from the likes of Williamson, and regain some dignity.

    I like the irony in your comment: These authoritarians see democracy and secular modernity as the causes of their loss of power and prestige.

    Ironic, because the Pope does not agree with Williamson’s views (and has reiterated this most strongly) and yet, in spite of the obvious spewing from liberals around the world, has offered Williamson the chance to repent and enter back into the Church.

    Part of democracy is allowing other points of view that people do not agree with to be expressed, no matter how disgraceful. Part of the maturity we expect from the Church and other organisations is to offer the olive branch of love and forgiveness – to love the sinner and not the sin. When the Pope does this, he is attacked for being “too authoritarian”.

    Is the solution for the Pope to use his authority to ban Williamson from visiting a church and being part of a church? What shall we call this solution? The Final Solution?

    The Catholic Church is not moving backwards, it is looking forwards. If it can integrate SSPX back into the Church it will be a good thing. One of the causalities of this may be Williamson, who is likely to reject the Pope’s generous action.

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  69. Ross Nixon (607 comments) says:

    Talks of Jews preparing the Anti-Christ’s throne in Jerusalem

    I once heard a Jew describe their future Messiah.
    It shook me to the core! The description exactly matched what I expect of the Antichrist (as interpreted by evangelical Christianity). No wonder the Jews will be deceived; at least until Satan enters the Antichrist after 3.5 years and it becomes blatantly obvious.

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  70. Richard Hurst (757 comments) says:

    The Catholic Church- keeping its believers safe from the evils of the enlightenment, the renaissance, science and reason since the 16th century and still going strong. Join today and receive free copies of David Irving’s books and the classic Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Send no money now. Wait for the collection plate on Sunday.
    And remember: Jesus loves you! Well, some of you….

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  71. Scott (1,710 comments) says:

    Thank you ZenTiger for an informative post.

    I know DPF is a smart fellow but one wonders about his ability to correctly understand the workings of the Catholic church?

    I generally find the current Pope right on the money with his views and would tend to give him the benefit of the doubt about who he admits back into the Catholic church.

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  72. reid (15,981 comments) says:

    “And remember: Jesus loves you!”

    If you don’t think he loves you and everyone else Richard, you’re sadly mistaken.

    Forgiveness is one of the most powerful laws of the universe. It applies to anyone, anywhere, anytime.

    Maybe even to Williamson.

    Such a shame that everyone doesn’t practice it to the same degree they practice pride, envy, avarice, lust, sloth, wrath and gluttony.

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  73. TimG_Oz (917 comments) says:

    I once heard a Jew describe their future Messiah.
    It shook me to the core! The description exactly matched what I expect of the Antichrist

    Who was the Jew? What did he say?

    Sorry, but your story sounds like BS to me!

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  74. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    reid (1935) Vote: 0 0 Says:

    February 4th, 2009 at 9:47 pm
    “And remember: Jesus loves you!”

    If you don’t think he loves you and everyone else Richard, you’re sadly mistaken.

    A dead Jew can’t love anyone reid.

    Jesus loves no one. Jesus is dead. Get over it.

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  75. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    Of course its BS TimG_Oz, as are all messianic myths.

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  76. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    reid, yep, the two kiwis murdered by the Gestapo after the great escape in 1943.
    The Catholics tried to help them, they were caught and strung up .
    A lot of the Catholic church should have joined them on the bloody gallows for helping those bastards.
    Funny how Catholics can forgive any sin by other Catholics including murder by a good Catholic who was a member of the Gestapo.

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  77. Don the Kiwi (1,607 comments) says:

    DPF.
    I have much respect and admiration for you perception and in depth analysis of things political, legal and secular.

    However, when it comes to matters religious – particularly in relation to the Catholic Church, you display the ever diminishing IQ of the entire secular media – the MSM. I would suggest that, if you wish to post on topics such as this in future, you get the full story, maybe be consulting with someone who knows the full facts. Then, you can certainly offer your point of view, whether it be agreeable, critical or derogatory.

    Fortunately, there are some Catholics – as I am – and other Christians who have commented in pointing out where the post is in error.

    And of course, the usual venting of bile from the usual suspects who continue to vilify the Catholic Church. But the Church has had that for around 2000 years now, so there is not much – if anything – it has not been accused of, mainly by a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church is.

    As a very famous American Bishop, Fulton Sheen, once said – “Very few people hate the Catholic Church – but very many hate what they think is the Catholic Church.”

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  78. reid (15,981 comments) says:

    Jesus is dead. Get over it.

    That’s where you’re wrong, Billy, and I have utmost sympathy for your mistaken belief. Such a shame, not for me of course, but for you.

    grumpy, thanks for that clarification. Interesting isn’t it the connection between Catholicism and the 3rd Reich. I haven’t explored it myself, but I understand in general that Hitler was quite keen to exploit it. I’ve always found interesting the fact the Germans had “God mit us” on their belt buckles and the unwillingness of Pius II to condemn the Nazi excesses.

    How much responsibility can be sheeted home to Catholics in general though, given consideration of wartime exigencies within we fallible humans?

    I imagine there are many who died bravely and righteously, as I would hope I would also, in those circumstances.

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  79. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    Don the kiwi.
    by way of example; Many Labour party members would tell you what they believe the labour party is.
    over the past 9 years however Helen Clark was the leader – and was the Labour Party!

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  80. Don the Kiwi (1,607 comments) says:

    Patrick Starr.

    And you point is ?

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  81. Patrick Starr (3,675 comments) says:

    if you cant pick that one up – just keep praying. You’ll no doubt feel good about it

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  82. kiki (425 comments) says:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090204/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_hard_line_hero

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  83. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    Nothing gets everyone going quite like religion.

    Take a chill pill everyone – you never know it just be all a load of bullshit. trouble is we wont know till we die. The fact that all religions (yes DPF and that includes the jewish lot as well – there some real bad buggers in that history) have some very serious barstards involved leads me to think that its a subject certainly not worth getting excited about .

    Now – lets talk about something far more important – like the idiots running fonterra

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  84. Richard Hurst (757 comments) says:

    “If you don’t think he loves you and everyone else Richard, you’re sadly mistaken.

    Forgiveness is one of the most powerful laws of the universe. It applies to anyone, anywhere, anytime.”

    That’s wonderful reid. So he/she/it/god has already forgiven the Brothers Wiremu and Michael Curtis? Super! I take it you have too? That’s nice. Good for you.
    Personally I won’t be. Ever. But I’m a raving atheist. Please forgive me ;)

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  85. reid (15,981 comments) says:

    trouble is we wont know till we die.

    I disagree barry. The degree of actual anti-semitism in the world is a discernible fact as is the degree to which zionists rark it up for their own ends as is the degree to which DPF’s post is an accurate interpretation of the Pope’s move.

    Your previous posts were quite valuable albeit misunderstood by some commenters (hence the negative feedback).

    I congratulate you for having the guts to speak out against the tide of agreement whenever the “anti-semitism” accusation, false or otherwise, rears its never-anything-but-ugly-these-days-in-peacetime-60-years-after-the-war, head.

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  86. reid (15,981 comments) says:

    So he/she/it/god has already forgiven the Brothers Wiremu and Michael Curtis?

    Absolutely, Richard. God has already forgiven those and others much worse and indeed, God knew what was going to happen before they did it and stood aside and let it happen.

    Why?

    Do some research.

    P.S. Forgiveness does not equal not holding people to account. Some ignorant souls don’t yet understand that distinction.

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  87. TimG_Oz (917 comments) says:

    reid – so let me get this straight …

    You’re apparently a committed Christian (potentially non-denominational or born again?), that is anti-Zionism (although never having been to Israel or met any of the people there), anti-White House (or at least George Bush?) – which you believe is covertly influenced by Zionists (individual, or part of a conspiracy?), and you’re pro-Hamas .. at least the political arm

    Sorry .. I’m not trying to judge you motives or judgement … just trying to do a quick profile….. Am I correct above? Are you a student, employed or retired???

    And I haven’t even followed any posts on your New Zealand politics.

    Did you actually meet DPF FTF, or was it a discussion on this blog a couple of years ago?

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  88. reid (15,981 comments) says:

    “DPF FTF, or was it a discussion on this blog a couple of years ago?”

    Tim, it was a direct question on this blog to which DPF responded directly.

    As to your other questions, I’m not born-again, I’m only anti-zionism in the sense that the current exposition of it IMO damages the people of Israel whom I strongly support, I’m absolutely not anti-White House but am strongly anti-Bush for exactly the same reason I’m anti-current-exposition-of-zionism (Bush [and Clinton] damaged the American people whom I also strongly support), the Bush admin was indeed stongly influenced by zionist influence via neo-con personnel in key positions starting with Cheney but I’m less sure about Bush himself personally, I’m anti-Hamas but they are the elected govt in Gaza and therefore must be dealt with since there is no alternative whatsoever – Fatah is equally bad. I switch between self employment and employment quite frequently and I estimate over my lifetime I have paid more taxes than most people of my age.

    Why?

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  89. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    This is what happens when people take religion too seriously

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1134463/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-Christians-havent-got-prayer-diversity-Britain-.html
    or
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/feb/04/petrie-nurse-prayer-suspended

    Its also what happens when people dont stand up and speak out against some of these stupid things.

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  90. Bok (740 comments) says:

    Reid did a boy called Isaac beat you up as a child. You have to be the most rabid jew hater on these blogs. Every time some-one disproves one of your statements against Israel and the Jews, you change your position, but only to another negative or anti position.

    I suppose that there is a reason that the 30 rockets fired into Israel since the ceasefire is legitimate? That Firing 30 rockets is absolutely a PROPORTIONAL response to zero aggression from the IDF.

    You have never been to Israel yet you spout on endlessly about how bad Israel treats the Palestinians. The only thing you base your wonderful insight on is the media. Wow. Have a look at the media in NZ over the last years and see how comfortable you are in your assumptions.

    But in the end none of this matters, because some-one once installed the mantra in you, jews bad, Hamas good. The fact is that Hamas have a rather nice way of dealing with other palestinians
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3412813,00.html
    and
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6M7VVHs1xs&feature=channel

    We know that all Hamas wants is for a peaceful life in Palestine, where they can just get on with being ordinary Palestinians.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg&feature=channel_page

    And the evil jews are totally out of whack with their disproportionate responses this is how you should respond to your enemies with love , compassion and understanding (and these are palestinian on palestinian ) my god does Israel have a lot to learn!!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtsvjB8efKE&feature=channel_page

    And Israel has absolutely no reason what so ever to be concerned about the paint tins Hamas is tossing over the border, they are only wishing the best for their brothers across the border.
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=322_1233073285

    But what tells me that 1) you would not look at these links or 2) will dismiss them.

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  91. Bok (740 comments) says:

    The second link does not seem to work but try

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  92. Bok (740 comments) says:

    Wow I must have arrived!! My comments have to be moderated. Dont know how I feel about that.

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  93. Ratbiter (1,265 comments) says:

    The “fine” European tradition of trying to get rid of The Jews goes way back before Hitler & Co of course. And The Church of Rome has nearly always been the power pulling the strings. So when Pope Ratz was installed after John Paul II died, I remember being surprised that the Church of Rome hadn’t recognised 20th Century Germany’s excellent service to the old anti-Semitic cause a lot sooner…

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  94. reid (15,981 comments) says:

    very time some-one disproves one of your statements against Israel and the Jews, you change your position, but only to another negative or anti position.

    So you must have lots of examples then Bok. I’m waiting. Let’s start with your first dozen of them. Don’t forget to include your explanation of how my position changed upon being disproved.

    Once you’ve finished that, lets have your examples of where I’ve approved of Hamas.

    See Bok, neither has ever happened, has it. You’re making it up, aren’t you.

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  95. Bok (740 comments) says:

    Reid why do i bother, your little heros are fantastic. And you dont respond to the links I posted as I said you would not you challenge me to go and do some research. Fine. Dont know why I am doing it because you so blinded by your hatred of Israel, it would serve no purpose, but hey.

    You said
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524284
    and this
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524305
    but according to you you never approved of Hamas.

    or how about
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524321

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524610
    and when pinged change to and respond with
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524616
    Totally missing a very good point that you had used an opinion by a writer who stated that it was his opinion and presented it as fact.
    Then this
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524622
    and this
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524625

    But you know, thats enough I put that together in 5 minutes off one thread here. In the end you are a blowhard that has gains his “knowledge and insight off the ack of cornflake boxes or from some academic that has no clue. Leave subject to those who actually know what they are talking about. who have been there and actually have a bit of understanding. But you wont. Your beloved Hamas will never be the filth that they are in your eyes.they will always be heros. Thats how the Phyco killer Che ecame a cult hero. because little white boys with are to scared to experience the real world so they live vicariously through others. I bet you tell the girls or guys you try to pick up, that you were once a spy.
    Pathetic.
    Now an apology would have been nice, but somehow I think you will try and spin out of that as well.

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  96. Bok (740 comments) says:

    Reid in answer to both your statements
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524625
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524622
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524616
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524610
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524321
    Ah just read the whole thread and see you go from Fawning over Hamas.. “they are the only ones running clinnics. blah, not coorupt bl to here saying you never approved.

    Wannabe know-alls like you piss me off. Do you go around telling girls or boys you hit on that you were a spy or something? Because the bullshit line you spin here is stunning. I dont know why I bothered but I did. In two minute in one thread I found multiple times that you did both of those above.

    You see it is because of blowhards like you who think they have a clue that phyco killers like Che become cult heroes. You have no balls to go and have a look for yourself then piss off with your cornflake box knowledge.
    And I can be abusive because you were as you can see in the links provided (or the remainder of the thread.
    An apology would be nice but integrity for you would be up there with truth and knowledge…. just slightly out of reach

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  97. Bok (740 comments) says:

    Reid in answer to both your statements
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524625
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524622
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524616
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524610
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524321
    Ah just read the whole thread and see you go from Fauning over Hamas.. “they are the only ones running clinnics. blah, not coorupt bl to here saying you never approved.

    Wannabe know-alls like you piss me off. Do you go around telling girls or boys you hit on that you were a spy or something? Because the bullshit line you spin here is stunning. I dont know why I bothered but I did. In two minute in one thread I found multiple times that you did both of those above.

    You see it is because of blowhards like you who think they have a clue that phyco killers like Che become cult heroes. Because you romanticize them as fighters for the people. If You have no balls to go and have a look for yourself then piss off with your cornflake box knowledge.
    And I can be abusive because you were as you can see in the links provided (or the remainder of the thread.

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  98. Bok (740 comments) says:

    Reid inanswer to both your statements
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524625
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524622
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524616
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524610
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/01/tvnz_reporting_from_gaza.html#comment-524321
    Ah just read the whole thread and see you go from Fauning over Hamas.. “they are the only ones running clinnics. blah, not coorupt bl to here saying you never approved.

    Wannabee knowalls like you piss me off. Do you go around telling girls or boys you hit on that you were a spy or something? Because the bullshit line you spin here is stunning. I dont know why I bothered but I did. In two minute in one thread I found multiple times that you did both of those above.

    You see it is because of blowhards like you who think they have a clue that phyco killers like Che become cult heroes. You have no balls to go and have a look for yourself then piss off with your cornflake box knowledge.
    And I can be abusive because you were as you can see in the links provided (or the remainder of the thread.

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  99. reid (15,981 comments) says:

    OK Bok, so you have said that all those threads are against Israel and the Jews.

    Now, who is “Israel and the Jews?”

    Are you perchance conflating the govt of Israel with the state of Israel?

    Are you perchance conflating the interests of the Jewish people with the actions taken by the govt of Israel?

    It really seems you are, for nothing in all of those posts you cite that were written by me (I haven’t even clicked on the others since I see no point since your comment is about what I said and nothing else), never ever ever ever ever ever ever condemns anything other than the govt of Israel.

    None of your links ever cite a post from me supporting Hamas. None of your links cite a post from me condemning Jews or the people of Israel.

    I am definitely against the current govt of Israel Bok. That’s because they act against the interests of the Jewish people. However you appear to have conflated the two concepts which are actually quite separate things.

    Perhaps you might want to continue your research, although I can assure you that I have never ever ever said anything that criticizes the people of Israel nor shows support for Hamas, in anyway, whatsover. Unless of course you take the view that criticising the govt of Israel is de facto supporting Hamas, but such a view would be such a mistaken, juvenile and puerile approach that I could hardly credit it to a ten-year-old let alone someone like you Bok.

    So no banana this time Bok. Maybe better luck next time. Keep trying though. Apparently, you need the practice.

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  100. kiwichristian (15 comments) says:

    This is really irrelevant because the pope is an antichrist.

    He :

    Denies the one sacrificial saving grace of Jesus Christ. (mass)

    Calls himself Christ on earth. Accepts the title “holy father”, where the Bible says only God The Father is our holy father. Allows people to kiss his feet, a form of worship. Also by saying that there is no salvation outside of him or his church. He Also says you must earn your way to heaven, yet God says “Through the deeds of the law shall no man be justified”.

    Denies Jesus is the one mediator between God and man. 1 Timothy 2:5 is (for there is ONE MEDIATOR, the man JESUS CHRIST)

    Invents sin by saying something is not sin, when the bible clearly says it IS sin.

    Practises and promotes the worship of idols as contrary to the second commandment. Actually REMOVES Gods commandment from the bible that forbids this in a way to justify this.

    Denies and Alters the Word Of God to suit his own traditions and beliefs.

    Accepts worship from man.

    Responsable for the murder of millions who do not agree with him.

    The roman catholic church is not biblical Christianity and should be avoided.

    Catholic priests are dieing from AIDS at FOUR times the national average in the U.S !

    I am not here to offend. I am here to speak the truth as defined in The Word of God.

    I love catholics. I love mulims, I love J’W’s. I dont love their false religions, but i love them.

    In Christs’ service,

    http://thetruthaboutcatholics.blogspot.com/

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  101. kiwichristian (15 comments) says:

    BTW: you guys DO know the current pope was a member of the HITLER YOUTH ?

    [DPF: As were all young Germans - it was compulsory]

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