Bring Dylan home
March 17th, 2009 at 5:00 pm by David FarrarJust been reading up on the sad case of Dylan Laybourn at Bring Dylan home.
Dylan’s parents are both NZ citizens. The mother, who is also a Turkish citizen, went with Dylan, then aged four months, for a three week holiday in May 2007. She phoned from Turkey to say she is not returning home and will not return Dylan.
Stuff has an NZPA story from last October that reported:
Prime Minister Helen Clark has stepped into a custody battle over a New Zealand child taken to Turkey by his mother 18 months ago.
Four months after he was born in Auckland, Dylan Laybourn was taken to Turkey in May 2007 by his Turkish mother Gulsen for a holiday.
After she refused to return him, Dylan’s father Bruce visited Turkey twice and pursued government and legal avenues to try to get him back.
Under the Hague Convention on Child Abduction, any custody dispute should be heard in the child’s country of origin, in this case New Zealand, Mr Laybourn said on 3 News tonight.
However, Turkey did not recognise New Zealand’s membership of the Hague Convention in 2007 due to an oversight.
Mr Laybourn was told that then-Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters would not raise the issue when he was in Turkey earlier this year, and the legal case to retrieve Dylan had closed in Turkey because of the technicality over the Hague Convention.
“Diplomacy has done all it can, officials have done all they can, the legal obligations do not require Turkey to return the child unfortunately,” Miss Clark told 3 News.
“That’s why I have said I will personally take it up with the Turkish Prime Minister,” she said.
I am not sure what the technicaly is, but it will be appalling if the father loses his rights due to this, and I hope the NZ Government continues the work done by Helen Clark to get a satisfactory conclusion to this.
Tags: Dylan Laybourn, Turkey
March 17th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Calling Dad4Justice… I believe this is just the thread for you…
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
“It is inconceivable that I will be flying home a third time since Dylan was abducted in May, 2007, leaving my little Kiwi son behind.”
The Family Court does not care about the paternal side of the kiwi family. Just look at the male suicide rates and match up how many fathers kill themselves after their children are abducted by unscrupulous mothers! Family law is a sick feminist tool invented too destroy fatherhood. Suicide is painless Judge Boshier!
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
“I AM DYLAN’S PATERNAL GRANDFATHER. MY WIFE & ARE BOTH AGED 85 YEARS. WE LAST SAW DYLAN WHEN HE WAS A FEW WEEKS OLD & WONDER IF WE WILL EVER SEE HIM AGAIN IN OUR LIFETIME. IT DISTRESSES ME GREATLY TO SEE MY WIFE, WHO IS IN ILL HEALTH SITTING WITH TEARS RUNNING DOWN HER FACE WHILE SHE GENTLY STROKES DYLAN’S PHOTOGRAPH. PLEASE PLEASE HELP US GET OUR WEE MAN BACK HOME. OUR HEARTS BREAK FOR OUR SON BRUCE & WE WISH HIM ALL OUR LOVE & BEST WISHES. WE ARE BEHIND YOU EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. YOU ARE OUR SON & WE LOVE YOU, LIKE YOU LOVE YOURS.”
Another destroyed paternal family. Well done Family Court.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
If the child’s surname had been Vela, Peters would have been all over the case like a robber’s dog.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
This isn’t actually the result of the Family Court, because the whole problem is that NZ courts have no jurisdiction here.
Having said that, I sympathize with D4J in these matters. The FC is a blatant ultrafeminist monstrosity which regularly deprives good, deserving fathers of their rights while granting custody to drug addicted / unemployed / mentally ill mothers.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
I feel sorry for this situation, but theres nothing quite as unpredictable as a cross cultural marriage (- or ‘arrangement’ if its not actual marriage.)
And the fact that the story was on TV 3 makes one wonder if we have only heard a small part of the story.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
The only requirement for the Hague Convention on Child Abduction to be effective in a country is for the country to pass legislation giving effect to it. NZ has done so. It might be that Turkey has a general enactmant that gives legal effect to such conventions. Possibly the Turkish legislation gives effect to it only if Turkey is an ‘active’ signatory.
There is a big tension with the convention – the need to deter child abduction by requiring the return of the child versus the concern for the welfare and best interests of the child. The compromise in the Convention is that if a complaint is lodged within a year of an abduction, the return of the child is favoured, and after that leaving the child with the abducted parent is favoured. Because the welfare and best interests of the child is paramount in child legislation in NZ and would be so in other countries (but note that Muslim nations have not signed the Convention), there would be some hestiatancy in enforcing the convention by NZ and other courts.
See:
Vote:http://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/cases/secretary-for-justice-v-hj/at_download/fileDecision for a Supreme Court judgment which gives useful information on this.
March 17th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
What, Winston was too busy to fight for a father’s rights? Considering he’s been through a separation himself (albeit that I have no idea whether it was amicable or not, but he must at least know how it feels to be separated from one’s children) I’d have thought he’d at least make the effort.
What else could one do there, anyway? Or was it a case of “so much kumis, so little time”?
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
My sympathy for the father is limited by his foolishness in having a child with someone from an islamic country. I do feel sorry for the kid who is going to raised by nutters when he could have had a chance to grow up in civilisation.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Prior to emancipation, females had a very raw deal.
it can be argued that the pendulum has swung too far the other way.
Frankly with the previous administration directing the Judiciary, and the blatant Malehate, it cannot be any surprise to anybody.
Women radicals want far more than half the cake, unless it doesn’t suit.
Fairplay, nice work if you can get it. However there will have to be a swing to fairness and reasonability.
Otherwise there will be a huge backlash.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
“However, Turkey did not recognise New Zealand’s membership of the Hague Convention in 2007 due to an oversight.”
So just how many other countries do not recocognise NZ’s membership? I always believed you were a member or you were not. Or is recognition ‘selective’ as are so many other things.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Christopher says “Having said that, I sympathize with D4J in these matters. The FC is a blatant ultrafeminist monstrosity which regularly deprives good, deserving fathers of their rights while granting custody to drug addicted / unemployed / mentally ill mothers.”
AGREED!
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
Lucy the Hague Convention is more toilet paper. What about the abductions that go on inside NZ? Winston’s niece did the same to an unnamed All Black, but she can, as women can lie without consequences in the Femily Court, even though we used the All Black captain and coach ( now Ocker Coach) as references against the false allegations that allowed the legal abduction. Winny didn’t want a bar of it.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
I used to know Bruce Laybourn but didnt know about this. Bruce is a heck of a nice guy. He’s one of the people who started Style Magazine – amongst other mags
(I have to observe that he never chose his women all that well)
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Can anybody explain to me why the media and politicians turn their back on the travesty of the Family court?
Vote:Fathers Rights must be an obscene phrase. Got any balls John Boy?
March 17th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
“Mr Laybourn was told that then-Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters would not raise the issue when he was in Turkey earlier this year”
Hmmm. I didn’t think I could have a lower opinion of Peters. What a surprise. That just managed it.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
One of the big problems with issues like father’s rights is that people get the impression that you’re somehow a chauvinist who wants to keep his woman in the kitchen and beat his kids.
I personally think that ultrafeminist efforts to paint any opposition to their anti-men, anti-family agenda as chauvinism have been quite successful with a large portion of the legal fraternity (an ironic term in this sense, no?).
My mum, sister and girlfriend are all very…. erm…. “independent” women, but all of them support my views on the family court and the rights of fathers and husbands.
It is only the minority of legal elitists who believe otherwise.
Such issues haven’t been much on my mind lately, as I have focussed my attention on political discussion and climate change ‘debate’, but I think it is certainly high time that the Family Court got a swift kick up the bum.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
“certainly high time that the Family Court got a swift kick up the bum.”
Christopher – No chance of that ever happening, as the appeal rights are nonexistent and government select committee after committee ignores the constant injustice for fathers. I hear a wee word that the Family Court is responsible for rising male suicide rates. How can those feminist judges call themselves men? They are alien fembots devoid of any paternal feelings!
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
LUCY – Oops on my part. Turkish legislation (or their equivalent to Orders in Council) would seem to schedule the countries who are signatory to the Convention and NZ was accidentially omitted (strange as I think NZ was a ‘foundation’ signatory). NZ legislation has no such schedule).
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
“Another destroyed paternal family. Well done Family Court”
Specifically, what did the Family Court do or fail to do in this case that deserves such condemnation? Was an application filed? Did it have the remotest idea that this could have happened? I know some people have some grievances here — and they may well be justified– but how about some objectivity?
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Objectivity nutkin!! Here is some, if a father did this every law enforcement officer in the world would have this dad on the most wanted list. Get a grip. Maybe the Ministry of Wimins Affairs could sort this shit out?
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
That’s not ojectivity. That’s wild generalised exageration unsupported by a single fact. Wasnt there a huge hunt for young Hedley(?) – got taken by mum (Shelton?) who went to jail? Did you feed that data in to your system?
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Oh yes, the Hedley case. Silly me, one in a million, now back to objectivity, considering 90% of FC litigant clients are mothers who win custody, now that is fulfilling the feminist objective. Problems with fatherlessness are rampant amongst our communities, but no government would dare to tackle the mission to balance the judicial gender scales.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
In the mean time somewhere in Turkey they are having the exact same conversation about a father who wants to uproot a child from his homeland and his mother.
This father intends to take the child to some third world south pacific nation, whats more this father is trying to use the Hague convention when the country the father wants to take the child to does not have valid membership.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 9:27 pm
It seems that the oversight was not NZ’s but that of Turkey which did not recognise NZ’s membership till 1 April 2008. Can’t find any other justification for the so called technicality.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
I bet the confused and estranged young lad doesn’t understand what a technicality is. If I was PM I would send in troops to retrieve the young kiwi. Wonder if John Keystone and all the spin doctors make an issue of this, just like Miss Klarkula did?
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
Terrible. My understanding is that Turkey is not part of the Hague Convention and therefore very difficult to have the child returned. D4J – don’t see how this has anything to do with the FC let alone how they are at fault on this occasion.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
No point trying to debate the situation with a lawyer like GPT1. I thought child custody issues were FC jurisdiction, but then again I foolishly thought that Turkey was part of the convention, at least it says that it is on the FC website list of countries that are party to the crapaloa convention. All in the child’s best interests eh Mr Lawyerman.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
dad4justice says:
Yes I can, fairly easily. It goes like this:
1. Man separates from family and assumes since he’s been a typical father (i.e. not perfect but certainly no threat or danger to his kids, whom he loves and whom his partner / wife knows he loves) he’ll get access, perhaps shared custody etc. After all, it’s all about what’s in the best interests of the children…
2. Time ticks by, the legal bills mount, the lawyers assure him that it’ll turn out fine in the end, but he rarely gets to see his children because even when he finally wins an order for access his ex-partner keeps dreaming up flimsy excuses why the kid can’t be delivered or picked up. Or she moves hundreds of miles away to make it nigh on impossible…
3. Perhaps the guy expresses some dissatisfaction with all of this, or perhaps not. Either way he’s suddenly served a protection order, which will then be held as evidence he’s violent even though there’s no record of Police ever having been called to a domestic in which he was involved. The learned Magistrate will have granted the order ex parte because of course it was “urgent” according to the ex-partner’s lawyer.
4. Suddenly the bloke gets a huge bill in the mail from the understanding folk at IRD Child Support. Sorry buddy, you’re allowed a meagre $18k or so to live on, then we’re taking a third of what’s left. Oh, and that third is based on your before tax income, but you of course have to pay us ut of your after tax earnings, so it’s really more like half…
5. The ex-partner continues playing silly games at Court, delaying hearings and so on. Suddenly the bloke is hit with an allegation that he’s molested one of his children. Visits are cut back and must be supervised, usually by someone who spends the entire hour looking at him like he’s dirt. He’s visited by Police, soecial workers and so on, all of whom proceed from the belief he’s guilty…
6. Eventually, the bloke wakes up to the fact he’s not going to get anywhere. So he starts complaining to his MP r the media or both. By now however he’s broke, accused of being a pedophile and subject to a protection order. Months of stress are showing and he’s so desperate to have someone believe him that he’s weirdly intense. By this stage he’ll do anything to get noticed, and try and get justice, even put on a Batman suit and stand in front of Parliament
In fact one might almost suspect he’s crazy…
7. In a few cases he’ll go on to kill himself or, even more tragically, kill himself and his children. This of course will be made much of by the media, who might mention, in passing, that he was involved in a custody dispute. Thus Joe Public thinks “all these blokes that get involved in custody disputes must be nutters”, not realising there’s hundreds more who are just sitting in a corner quietly sobbing to themselves.
It’s easy to marginalise and ignore “single issue nutters”, ignoring the fact you’re part of the system that made them that way.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
Oh look GPT1 – is Turkey on the list or not?
http://www.justice.govt.nz/family/what-familycourt-does/children/hague-convention.asp
Goodnight.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
@Rex: That post actually got me a little choked up.
No really, it did.
Vote:March 17th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
I have had no practical experience with the Hague Convention or any other international convention for that matter. However, I have cut and pasted part of section 99 of the Care of Children Act 2004 which suggests that individual nations have to agree specifically between themselves that the convention will be enforceable. As mentioned above, it seems that Turkey did not recognize that the convention would be enforceable in Turkey vis-a-vis New Zealand until April 2008 — some time after Dylan arrived. Accountability for any delay seems to be a political rather than legal enquiry. I am only assuming, of course, that this is the technicality referred to.
“This section applies to a certificate signed by the Secretary of Foreign Affairs and Trade and stating—
Vote:(a)that a specified country is or is not a country in respect of which the Convention is in force as between that country and New Zealand; and
(b)where applicable, that there is in effect, in respect of any specified provision of the Convention, a reservation made by any Contracting State under Article 42 of the Convention.”
March 17th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Jeez Dad – you’re 100% right. Both NZ and Turkey are parties to the Hague Convention
http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=states.listing
so if theres a technical issue why the fuck didnt the Minister of Foreign Affairs sorrrrrrtttt ……………
…. oh,…….. that right – it was rent-a-minister
Vote:March 18th, 2009 at 2:26 am
And we wonder why so many **Whole Natural Biological FAMILIES** are damaged if not destroyed in New Zealand.
If the majority of posts above reflect the vitally interested in things FAMILY it’s easy to see why.
Change to NZ FAMILY Law and Social Policy that is currently destroying FAMILYS at a greater rate than ever will come from OUTSIDE New Zealand.
Take a risk and visit;
* Equal Parenting @ Ration Shed
GO – http://rationshed.wordpress.com
* Dad4Justice
http://dad4justice.blogspot.com
Take an even bigger risk and sign the **Equal Parenting** Petition which is on the front page of Ration Shed
Sorry to Peter that I have come into this debate so late – Been busy off shore where the fight for our Kids to have equal doses of Mum, Dad and all 4 grand Parents has hope.
NZ is in the grip of WomenZ-NAZI’s, MENZ-Nazi’s, Weak Spin Doctored effected apathetic Men and their disastrous effect on FAMILY Law and Social Policy over many years, for some time to come even if John and team see thru it in time to do something.
John could put more hope into economic recovery of our Nation and inspire more Men and Grand Parents who have lost Children and Grand Children be tearing ALL Gender Bias from the edifices of Bureaucracy, IRD-so-called-CS, so-called-FAMILY Court, CYFS, WINZ, Police and on it goes.
Granted John and team are doing a brilliant job of handling the economy from the strict economic point of view but while the foundations of our country continue to be torn apart by the application (Self serving MP’s (I see Winstone mentioned several times above), Judiciary, Lawyers, Bureaucrats and their hirelings) of current FAMILY Law and Social Policy much of the good being done is weakened and going on deaf from grief ears.
Sadly I am beginning to think John and Team are naïve of these things.
I and know doubt hundreds of others including my esteemed colleague and our Dad4Justice have written to ALL of them many times with much information and many stories since Nov the 8th.
A few have replied giving a smidgeon of hope but the ignorance or lack of reality is clear.
Onward – Jim
Vote:March 18th, 2009 at 6:48 am
Do gutless pc plastic politicians and cowardly media types have biological fathers or are they all created in a test tube in a feminist run laboratory? Talk about Turkey’s.
Vote:March 18th, 2009 at 8:09 am
I wonder if anybody has stopped for one minute and considered what the kid wants or what might be best for the kid?
Vote:March 18th, 2009 at 8:49 am
Big Bruv,
Kids need Equal doses of Mum, Dad and all 4 Grand Parents
Asking a young boy to deside who he is to be brought up by is like asking a mouse which Lion can have him for dinner
Onward – Jim
Vote:March 18th, 2009 at 9:35 am
OK we all know that Winnie was/is a wanker and the fact that he did not help is no surprise. What did Helun do? What can be followed up on?
d4j. I agree that the law is unfair and an ass I have known fathers who would make better parents than the mothers who gained custody but in the main I believe (true) shared custody is best. However unfortunately I think Rex is right with his analysis of what usually happens.
In the case of this child it is no use asking him what he wants, a child will always choose what he knows over what he doesn’t and thanks to his mother he does not really know his dad.
Turkey ‘made a mistake’ by leaving NZ’s name off the list. Surely it is up to Turkey to rectify this error retrospectively and meet their obligations under the Hague convention or is that too simplistic?
Vote:March 18th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Bruce is a very close friend of mine. I have just contacted him and asked him join this blog and join in on the discussion.
Vote:March 18th, 2009 at 11:03 am
“If I was PM I would send in troops to retrieve the young kiwi’
Well, given how it turned out the last time Kiwi troops landed in Turkey, I’m not sure I’d be warming up the army just yet.
Vote:March 18th, 2009 at 11:37 am
I’ve just read through the comments & thanks so much to everyone for taking the time to tackle this issue. Until you experience this nightmare as a parent, it is impossible to comprehend how it turns your life upside down.
I have just returned after a month in Istanbul and I’m utterly frustrated that the PM’s office remains silent on the issue.
This clearly became a PM’s department matter with the direct referral by Helen Clark to Turkish Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
The cop out that New Zealand cannot interfere in the judicial process of another country is just plain nonsense and shows a sad ignorance of the Hague Convention which specifically provides that the Requesting State may request reasons for delays
I am gratified that Auckland Central MP Nikki Kaye has agreed to meet this afternoon to discuss.
Vote:March 18th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Since Dylan was abducted in May, 2007, I have had meetings arranged and confirmed – and then cancelled – by Winston Peters and Murray McCully. I have asked for reasons for the cancellation – and been ignored! The level of indifference to the fact that an infant New Zealand boy is trapped in Turkey continues to shock me. Dylan is the Great Grandson of a decorated New Zealand Gallipoli soldier. Archie Johnston, who was awarded the Military Medal for gallantry, had no hesitation to go and fight for his country. Now his country is reluctant to fight his youngest descendant.
Dylan is a great big Kiwi boy. At just 2, he is a metre tall and 21 kgs. He wears clothes made for 5 year olds in Turkey. He stands out in Turkey as a big foreigner and would certainly be an oddity at school in Turkey – and that worries me a lot. As his mother has stopped speaking English to him he is fluent in Turkish but understand some English. Until I met him early Feb I didn’t even know he was left handed – such has been the thoroughness of their deliberate disconnection of Dylan from his dad. We used to see one another on Skype but his mother now refuses to do this.
At just 2, Dylan is way too young to decide where he wants to be. But what he does need is access to both parents – and a big open country to run and play and grow up in.
One sad misunderstanding that frequently occurs is that the Hague Convention might separate mother from a child. This is not the case. The Hague case should rule that the mother return Dylan to his homeland where any issues between parents can be addressed.
We had an incredible time together. Dylan knew me straight away, despite not having seen me for a year. He was a bit shy as we rode in a taxi but gradually shuffled across & sat on my knee. He moved into the apartment I rented and we had a whole month of bonding, playing, wrestling, reading, building toys. During this time he never once asked for his mum.
Please go to Dylan’s website http://www.bringdylanhome.co.nz where you can sign a petition & send comments directly to the PM’s office. There is video here of Dylan and I on our very sad last day together.
Vote:March 18th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
My sincere sympathy to you Bruce and all the best. As a father who thank God has never had to deal with the NZ Family Court or this particular issue it seems to me there is certainly something wrong in the state of Denmark as they say.
Over many years the stories of abuse by mothers and the Family Court of fathers has not been countered.
In fact the Court and its supporters have stayed erriely silent which tends to suggest that the stories are the fact and may just be the tip of a very big ice berg.
As to the Hague Convention IMHO any Government who does not stand and uphold Conventions or Agreements it has signed is guilty of betraying its citizens and must be condemned.
I would go further and say such a Governemnt is giving tacit approval to the other Governments actions in ignoring the Convention/Agreement
What purpose do these serve if a Government runs away and hides at the first opportunity.
Unless this or and the previous GOvernment can show it has done all in its power to safeguard a citizen then it must stand accused.
Vote:March 18th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Thank you Bruce for commenting here. I know it must stir up all those feelings every time you have to discuss the issue and it’s testament of your dedication to, and love for, Dylan that you continue to do so. I wish you every success.
gd, I think you’ve raised a pertinent issue and one which goes well beynd this particular instance. When a NZer is in any international difficulty the NZ government – regardless of who’s in power – tends to take a “not our problem” attitude. Contrast that with Australia, which usually makes strenuous efforts on behalf of its citizens.
You are right – the first and most important duty of a government is to safeguard its citizens. That’s a principle that’s accepted by everyone from the wettest lefty to the driest libertarian. Yet on any objective measure of its effort in this regard, the NZ government fails dismally. It’s not good enough.
Vote:March 19th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
If it’s any consolation, things are worse in the UK. The Family Court condones perjury on the mother’s side.
I lost my family of four children seven years ago. I have been to court sixty-six times. The children have been taken two hundred and fifty miles away. I do not know their address. I do not know what schools they are at. The court, although it knows, will not tell me.
The mother abducted and hid the children in 2002. A month later I met the two boys (then aged four and two) by chance in the bank and they willingly and happily walked back home with me. This was treated by the courts as abduction BY ME: the emergency services were alerted and the ports notified.
I was removed from my house (my childhood home) in handcuffs and it was sold without my consent. For two years I slept on a church hall floor.
Now I can’t even get contact with the children by email. I haven’t seen any of them for a year and a half. The eldest girl (now twelve) I haven’t seen or communicated with in any way for over three years.
Who needs the Hague Convention when you get this treatment in your own country?
Vote:April 17th, 2012 at 10:16 am
A very sad situation!! Turkish and Kurdish children are highly treasured, especially boys! There are so many similar cases of naive western spouses allowing their children to be taken to countries such as Turkey and Algeria for a ‘holiday’. Also you never know who you are dealing with in Turkey….e.g. who is connected to the Turkish mafia. Also vengence is high on the psyche list of these people. You do NOT cross them. On the positive side that NZ/Turkish child will be dearly loved/cherished by the extended family. Also it would only be fair to hear the Turkish mother’s side of this story.
Vote:November 19th, 2012 at 4:56 pm
Whilst this is a sad story for the child what about the businesses that Bruce has ripped off using their money so he can divert funds to further his cause. We for one would like to get paid and find it appalling that Bruce can knowingly ignore reminder after reminder after reminder and then file for bankruptcy and still run a business. Maybe if Bruce had shown some compassion for the people he has ripped off then life might have treated him better.
Vote: