General Debate 24 March 2009

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fredinthegrass

Have just seen the Dow has risen over 4% overnight.
I thought a “toxic” loan would remain just that – toxic.
So why would a shift of ownership cause the Wall Street indexes
to rise so significantly?
Perhaps we should be preparing for massive inflation in the near future!
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March 24, 2009 8:14am
radar

Having voted for the National-led government, I am disgusted that they are going to resume live sheep exports to the Middle East. In 2004 around 6000 sheep died en route from Australia to the Middle East, and now John Key wants to resume this practice. It is fitting that we have a Minister of Agriculture who doesn’t give a crap about the actual animals. All he sees are dollar signs. Mr Carter’s statement: “”New Zealand will not let live exports leave this country unless we’re assured of their treatment both on water, and also the treatment of animals once they arrive at the destination”, is absurd. How can they be assured of the animals’ treatment when any old Tom, Dick, or Mohammed is allowed to take a sheep, lie it down, hold it down with his knees, and hack into its throat with a knife? This is the way of halal slaughter, and I curse the National and ACT Parties for letting this happen again. I will never vote for either of them again.

http://www.liveexportshame.com
http://www.handlewithcare.tv/au/
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March 24, 2009 8:31am
expat

I just bet you have cheap Chinese imported goods in your house made by oppressed school age children working in toxic conditions.

Grow up. They’re sheep, you eat them and wear them
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March 24, 2009 8:39am
Patrick Starr

dont forget the south islanders also date them
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March 24, 2009 8:41am
PhilBest

I know I’ve said this before but I want to throw it in near the start of a thread for a change.

Every time I post a comment to the following effect, I get hit with negative karma. Could I please have some intelligent arguments besides that?

The worldwide financial crash was not due to a lack of regulation. It was due to the failure of regulators as well as the Wall Street turkeys, to believe that house prices could ever come down.

They kept lending money on that basis.
They kept securitizing mortgages on that basis.
They kept selling derivatives on that basis.
The regulators (of which there were thousands) okayed all of the above on that basis.
The Wall Street turkeys didn’t bother their heads about risk because that is what the regulators are paid to do.
The people who issued warnings were dismissed as cranks.
The people buying up derivatives in a big way were dismissed as suckers, when in fact they were the smartest people around.

Now comes the killer question.

Ask yourself:

Is the price of my house too high? Is New Zealand a lucky country that is going to be bypassed by housing crashes?

USA GDP: $14 trillion
“Total Housing stock” at peak of bubble: $20 Trillion

NZ GDP: $180 billion
“Total Housing stock” at peak of bubble: $630 Billion

The question I would ask you, is what is the difference between you and all those turkeys on Wall Street and the urkeys who were supposed to be regulating them? What entitles New Zealanders to take the moral high ground about “failure of free markets” and “rampant de-regulation”?

Reid commented earlier that I have left the role of derivatives out; (actually I did mention them, read it more carefully, Reid); they are really what has done the big damage on Wall Street. I would reply that that doesn’t change the point of what I am trying to say above. I understand and am concerned about the damage done by derivatives, but that is a separate topic. The point I am making here is that the turkeys selling the derivatives did so on the assumption that to do so was a safe bet “because house prices never come down”.
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March 24, 2009 8:42am
wreck1080

Heres one….

1 trillion is too big a number to get your head around, I prefer to see bailouts expressed in per capita basis.

How much has the US government splashed out on bailouts to date, on a per capita basis?

I read somewhere total bailouts were at 8.5 trillion, but add 1 trillion last night so I assume around 9.5 trillion.

There are 140 million US taxpayers (from wiki), so this works out to about $67,857.14 USD per taxpayer.

Each 1 trillion is about $7000USD lumped onto every US taxpayer.

This will surely dampen consumer spending for years to come, a lengthy drag on US company returns.
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March 24, 2009 8:42am
Brian Smaller

dont forget the south islanders also date them

But perhaps in future only three times 🙂
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March 24, 2009 8:46am
petal

“dont forget the south islanders also date [sheep]”

Sheep are preferrable to north islanders allright.
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March 24, 2009 8:48am
Patrick Starr

three dates with the same sheep?

– sounds like that could be subject to the property relationships act

Petal – and you would know thisssss……?
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March 24, 2009 8:49am
expat

baaaa-bara-aaaaaaa
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March 24, 2009 8:49am
expat

she a hard road finding the perfect ewe mate.
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March 24, 2009 8:50am
Ruth

Regardless of bailouts and so on, ones goal is to make money when investing. My US bank stocks have gone up 200% in a matter of weeks.

Suggest you get back into the market, or miss out on what is looking like one of the most impressive bull runs in history.
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March 24, 2009 8:52am
Patrick Starr

Q. how did you like your overseas cruise to saudi arabia?

A. it wasn’t baaaaad
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March 24, 2009 8:53am
PhilBest

Here is the difference between the damage done by derivatives, and the damage done by collapsing house prices following an unsustainable bubble.

Real money has been paid for overpriced houses. Real debt has been assumed. The “value” for which the money was paid and the debt assumed, was not real. It evaporates, leaving only the debt. The sums involved are enough to bring down an economy and overwhelm the ability of government to do anything about it.

Derivatives, on the other hand, are like bets having been placed. (They were meant to be insurances, but as Reid pointed out, the fact that their nominal value has reached the hundreds of trillions, means that they have gone well beyond insurance, to gambling. The analogy I would draw, is with the TAB taking huge bets on lots of very long odds horses, which if they all won their races, would make the TAB liable for sums many times bigger than our total GDP. In the event that those horses all DID win their races, the TAB would be bankrupt, and only a fraction of the winning bets would get paid out.

THAT is how derivatives SHOULD have worked. The institutions issuing them should have gone bankrupt, and very little of the derivatives liabilities paid out, and new institutions should have started up on a sound footing. The net effect on the economy would not be one of “destroyed value” as when house prices drop, but is simply a wealth transfer to the people who do get paid out. Introducing taxpayers money to the equation, merely makes the wealth transfer bigger, and makes the transfer one from the taxpayer to the paid out “counterparties”. It does not fix the problem of loss of value in the economy and loss of equity in the institutions, it makes things worse.
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March 24, 2009 8:54am
PhilBest

Ruth, what I would be very, very, interested to know right now, is what George Soros, Jim Rogers, and John Paulson are doing with their investment cash. Those guys have increased their fortunes several times over in the last couple of years by betting against fake rallies, using short selling and derivatives.

There are suspicions showing up all over the place, that the Federal Reserve is increasing the money supply COVERTLY; that is, they are not disclosing what they are doing. Have you read anything about that? If it’s true, then there will be another bubble that will burst eventually.

If you want to ride the wave up, well, just be very clever and pick the top; sell just before that, then short the market all way down. You will get very rich.

Let’s revisit this subject as appropriate, eh?
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March 24, 2009 9:01am
wreck1080

Ruth, this is your opinion and you could be very wrong. No one can predict what will happen next.

You could be right too, but it is all crystal ball gazing right now.

I think the dow belongs around 6000. It may get to that point yet.
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March 24, 2009 9:08am
PhilBest

OK, this essay is in the “Rolling Stone” magazine, but the author says a lot of telling and insightful things……..

If you are trying to follow “the big crash” and the reasons why, this is well worth reading:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover/print

Reid, does this fit in with what you have been saying for a long time about “the money manipulators”?
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March 24, 2009 9:11am
Razork

“Regardless of bailouts and so on, ones goal is to make money when investing. My US bank stocks have gone up 200% in a matter of weeks.

Suggest you get back into the market, or miss out on what is looking like one of the most impressive bull runs in history.”

SPAM!
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March 24, 2009 9:12am
big bruv

Come on chaps, its a bit harsh to say that South Islanders date sheep, the reality is that this only occurs in Canterbury.

However disgusting we normal folk may find “sheep dating” the fact remains that this is nothing when you compare it with the extremely high rates of inter family marriage, for some reason the Cantabs seem to think it is perfectly acceptable for brothers and sisters to marry.
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March 24, 2009 9:14am
PhilBest

EXCERPT:

“The H4 report (called “Factors Affecting Reserve Balances”) summarizes the activities of the Fed each week. You can find it online, and it’s pretty much the only thing the Fed ever tells the world about what it does. For the week ending February 18th, the number under the heading “Repurchase Agreements” on the table is zero. It’s a significant number,” Taibbi states, “Why? In the pre-crisis days, the Fed used to manage the money supply by periodically buying and selling securities on the open market through so-called Repurchase Agreements, or Repos. The Fed would typically dump $25 billion or so in cash onto the market every week, buying up Treasury bills, U.S. securities and even mortgage-backed securities from institutions like Goldman Sachs and J.P. Morgan, who would then “repurchase” them in a short period of time, usually one to seven days. This was the Fed’s primary mechanism for controlling interest rates: Buying up securities gives banks more money to lend, which makes interest rates go down. Selling the securities back to the banks reduces the money available for lending, which makes interest rates go up.

“If you look at the weekly H4 reports going back to the summer of 2007, you start to notice something alarming. At the start of the credit crunch, around August of that year, you see the Fed buying a few more Repos than usual — $33 billion or so. By November, as private-bank reserves were dwindling to alarmingly low levels, the Fed started injecting even more cash than usual into the economy: $48 billion. By late December, the number was up to $58 billion; by the following March, around the time of the Bear Stearns rescue, the Repo number had jumped to $77 billion. In the week of May 1st, 2008, the number was $115 billion — “out of control now,” according to one congressional aide. For the rest of 2008, the numbers remained similarly in the stratosphere, the Fed pumping as much as $125 billion of these short-term loans into the economy — until suddenly, at the start of this year, the number drops to nothing. Zero.

“The reason the number has dropped to nothing is that the Fed had simply stopped using relatively transparent devices like repurchase agreements to pump its money into the hands of private companies. By early 2009, a whole series of new government operations had been invented to inject cash into the economy, most all of them completely secretive and with names you’ve never heard of. There is the Term Auction Facility, the Term Securities Lending Facility, the Primary Dealer Credit Facility, the Commercial Paper Funding Facility and a monster called the Asset-Backed Commercial Paper Money Market Mutual Fund Liquidity Facility (boasting the chat-room horror-show acronym ABCPMMMFLF). For good measure, there’s also something called a Money Market Investor Funding Facility, plus three facilities called Maiden Lane I, II and III to aid bailout recipients like Bear Stearns and AIG. While the rest of America, and most of Congress, have been bugging out about the $700 billion bailout program called TARP, all of these newly created organisms in the Federal Reserve zoo have quietly been pumping not billions but trillions of dollars into the hands of private companies (at least $3 trillion so far in loans, with as much as $5.7 trillion more in guarantees of private investments). Although this technically isn’t taxpayer money, it still affects taxpayers directly, because the activities of the Fed impact the economy as a whole. And this new, secretive activity by the Fed completely eclipses the TARP program in terms of its influence on the economy.”
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March 24, 2009 9:14am
PhilBest

Then there is THIS in the “Financial Post”:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/03/19/terence-corcoran-is-this-the-end-of-america.aspx

By Terence Corcoran

“Helicopter Ben Bernanke’s Federal Reserve is dropping trillions of fresh paper dollars on the world economy, the President of the United States is cracking jokes on late night comedy shows, his energy minister is threatening a trade war over carbon emissions, his treasury secretary is dithering over a banking reform program amid rising concerns over his competence and a monumentally dysfunctional U.S. Congress is launching another public jihad against corporations and bankers……

“……..The spillover effect of all this on the rest of the world promises to be dramatically disruptive. The greatest global risk is in monetary and currency policy. Below is a chart that graphically demonstrates the sharp deviation in monetary policy from past norms. Under the chairmanship of Ben Bernanke, the Federal Reserve is in the midst of a giant economic experiment, flooding the world with U.S. dollars, hoping that flood will stimulate economic activity.

The total monetary base, already at astronomical levels, is now expected to take another big hit with the new Fed policy of buying up U.S. longer-term treasury bills in a bid to drive down long-term interest rates.

Mr. Bernanke is sometimes known as “Helicopter Ben” because he once in an academic paper referred to the use of “helicopters” full of money to rescue an economy from deflation. In comments Wednesday to explain the Fed’s new policy of buying $300-billion in U.S. treasury bills, Mr. Bernanke noted that the Fed is now more worried about inflation being too low than about it getting too high in the future.

For the rest of the world, however, the worry is that America is at risk of becoming the fountainhead of a new inflationary outburst. The U.S. dollar is now in decline, gold is moving sharply higher, and new global currency turmoil is on the horizon.

It may not happen. A paper just published by the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, source of the chart above, says that the Fed will have to be prepared to absorb all the excess money it has poured into the U.S. economy. It will be a technical and political challenge unlike any central bank has ever undertaken. The future of America is at stake.”
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March 24, 2009 9:19am
greenfly

Sheep eh! Hilarious! Those live export sheep, on their slow way to Saudi Arabia, what a laugh! 5o ooo of them baaaaaing hilariously as they smother, asphyxiate, dehydrate and otherwise suffer to death. The smell, the plaintive, ineffectual bleating, the hilarity of the situation! Oh how we all laughed! I know! Let’s do it ll again! Let’s send another shipload away. And another. And another! Thanks National, you’ve shown that you really do care, that you really do have a heart.
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March 24, 2009 9:28am
greenfly

Big Bro, apologist.
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March 24, 2009 9:37am
MT_Tinman

I didn’t have an opinion on sheep exports one way or another until I noticed the vegetable pest is ag’in it.

Given the cost of shipping, the cost of the animal and the work needed on the farm to prepare the animal from weaning to be acceptable for shipping I figure the exporters will be looking after the animals very well en route simply to ensure they arrive at their destination in top condition, therefore attracting top dollar there.

The only reason I can figure why Waikato based and Wellington people are against this practice is because it takes away some of those sheep they consider marriageable.

Of course the only reason the vegetable pest and it’s mates are against it is they’re ag’in every bloody thing.
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March 24, 2009 9:39am
Patrick Starr

the greens are against live sheep exports as it decreases their vote base
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March 24, 2009 9:46am
Rakaia George

If this government had banned live exports the greens would only be moaning about the carbon emissions caused by freezing the carcasses…ignore them, they’re not worth the effort.
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March 24, 2009 9:49am
Brian Smaller

Greenfly said

The smell, the plaintive, ineffectual bleating, the hilarity of the situation!

Sounds like a Green Party Conference.
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March 24, 2009 10:09am
Brian Smaller

Seriously though – Islamists seem to like slitting throats. It is no coincidence that Islamists use the term ‘slaughter’ to describe what they do to people they murder.
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March 24, 2009 10:11am
greenfly

NActional consigns thousands of sheep to unnecessary suffering – oh how we laugh and jest! But there’s profit in it, oh yes! International shame last time, granted, but this time we won’t let those ships leave our ports until.. blah, blah, baa, baa! Righteous brothers!
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March 24, 2009 10:43am
goodgod

How can they be assured of the animals’ treatment when any old Tom, Dick, or Mohammed is allowed to take a sheep, lie it down, hold it down with his knees, and hack into its throat with a knife? This is the way of halal slaughter…

Having seen it done, I can say that no, that is not the way of Halal – though I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, ever. As for “slaughter”, it’s a translation issue. In english the word makes it sound like a thousand hungry muzzies are charging down the hillside on horseback, scimitars waving in the air, bellowing war cries while the paddock of innocent sheep are unaware of their fate. If you want to be offended and outraged, go and watch a large euro slaughter house killing pigs. Then vote any way you like.
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March 24, 2009 10:44am
Jack5

Patrick Starr (8.41) twists the Aussie joke about New Zealanders being sheep shaggers on to South Islanders.

Ewe baa-stard Patrick. Ewes are all just pulling the wool over the Aussies’ eyes with a “not us” bleat and a “not us” nod towards the south.
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March 24, 2009 10:46am
paradigm

I see Phil Goff is now whining about labour board members being sacked by national. Apparently he thinks boards should continue to be dominiated by labour’s acumen-less sychophants even after the party was booted from the treasury benches.

Story from nz herald here: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10563268
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March 24, 2009 11:08am
greenfly

John Key’s cycle track idea is unravelling fast. No longer a single, insirational ‘top to bottom’ cycle way, it’s now a series of cycle tracks here and there, depending on the communities wishes. Like a rope that’s fraying badly, this pie in the sky cycleway. More’s the pity.
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March 24, 2009 11:22am
greenfly

MT_Tinman said:

Given the cost of shipping, the cost of the animal and the work needed on the farm to prepare the animal from weaning to be acceptable for shipping I figure the exporters will be looking after the animals very well en route simply to ensure they arrive at their destination in top condition

Tinman, would you like to explain why this didn’t happen last time?
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March 24, 2009 11:26am
MT_Tinman

This is the way of halal slaughter…

No, it’s not.

any old Tom, Dick, or Mohammed is allowed to take a sheep, lie it down, hold it down with his knees, and hack into its throat with a knife? This is the way of halal slaughter…

Only an idiot would do that.

The way to do it is to stand over the bastard (it’s easier on the back if the sheep’s standing), hold it with the knees, hold it’s head up and then hack at it’s throat with a knife.

It does help if the knife is reasonably sharp.

This incidentally is the way hundreds of sheep are killed in NZ every day.

Why should Arabs be condemned for doing the same?

Racism?
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March 24, 2009 11:29am
MT_Tinman

# greenfly (738) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
March 24th, 2009 at 11:26 am

MT_Tinman said:

Given the cost of shipping, the cost of the animal and the work needed on the farm to prepare the animal from weaning to be acceptable for shipping I figure the exporters will be looking after the animals very well en route simply to ensure they arrive at their destination in top condition

Tinman, would you like to explain why this didn’t happen last time?

I would but it did.
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March 24, 2009 11:33am
racer

So, Susan Couch and Dept. of Corrections in court, any guesses which side is making death threats too the judge? or do you think it’s more likely to be a proxy group like the Sensible Sentencing Trust?
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March 24, 2009 11:35am
baxter

I also condemn the restoration of live sheep exports.
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March 24, 2009 12:00pm
Komata

Apropos the Goff ‘Bleating’ (sorry, couldn’t resist . . ) about his cronies being ‘assisted on their way (s) from various boards etc.

He should be so lucky!

In Canada it is a given that after an election, everyone who is on the ‘loosing’ side expects to be removed and replaced by members of the opposing (victorious) party, a situation which, from memory also applies in the US.

He don’t know how lucky he is mate, he don’t know how lucky he is . . . But I guess it makes the public remember him – sometimes!

(Phil Who?)
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March 24, 2009 12:01pm
Patrick Starr

greenfly says

“5o ooo of them baaaaaing hilariously as they smother, asphyxiate, dehydrate and otherwise suffer to death. The smell, the plaintive, ineffectual bleating, the hilarity of the situation! Oh how we all laughed”

………and then advocates for public transport
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March 24, 2009 12:04pm
MT_Tinman

# baxter (816) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
March 24th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

I also condemn the restoration of live sheep exports.

Well don’t keep us all in the dark.

Tell us why.
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March 24, 2009 12:10pm
racer

Komata

In Canada it is a given that after an election, everyone who is on the ‘loosing’ side expects to be removed and replaced by members of the opposing (victorious) party, a situation which, from memory also applies in the US.

Yes, in the US there is political appointments around 5 layers deep in most areas of the public service, probably not the best way to go about getting good policy regardless of which side they are on.
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March 24, 2009 12:18pm
Razork

So Greenfly; You were against the cycle track now you’re against it possibly not happening?

What are you for?
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March 24, 2009 12:25pm
greenfly

Razork – I ride a bicycle every day. I think investment in cycle tracks is a great idea. I think projects that provide jobs at this point in history are vital. I think Key’s idea is impractical, in the way he has presented it, in the same way that his ‘snack bars for hungry school children’ was ill thought out. He’s piddling around with feel good ideas to pamper his adoring public. There’s nothing of substance coming from him.
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March 24, 2009 12:46pm
greenfly

MT_Tinman – the disgraceful cruelty that occured on route to Saudi Arabia, live sheep dying in droves, is a myth? Blow me down! Thank you for clearing that up. Museling a myth too? What a relief to the caring bleeding heart liberal that I am!
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March 24, 2009 12:50pm
Brian Smaller

Greenfly – the only guy in NZ who thinks Black Sheep was a documentary.
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March 24, 2009 12:57pm
Ryan Sproull

Caring about animals is gay.
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March 24, 2009 1:20pm
greenfly

but they seemed so real !
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March 24, 2009 1:20pm
Razork

If God didn’t want us to eat animals he wouldn’t have made them out of meat!

Well thats what I tell my quasi vegeterian teenager anyway.
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March 24, 2009 1:22pm
Ryan Sproull

If God didn’t want us to eat animals he wouldn’t have made them out of meat!

Well thats what I tell my quasi vegeterian teenager anyway.

Careful. You’re made of meat too.
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March 24, 2009 1:23pm
CraigM

I’m not overly fussed how a sheep dies, as long as it is cooked properly if I’m eating it. I like animals and would never mistreat one, but how hypoctical can i get if I am going to chow down on them?

It seems we accept that the sheep are going to die (vegans & some veges excepted) and the only issue is how long they are transported in horrid conditions for, before that happens.

Personally I wouldn’t want to spend an hour stuffed into a truck let alone days on a boat, but then again, these are sheep. They’re dumb.

I thought that sheep under duress before they die would have tougher meat than happy sheep. So why don’t we just keep killing them here (halal style as we do know) and ship the end product?

From an economic stand point, we always seem to be short selling our products. Surely we get more money for a dead sheep than a live one and we keep jobs here. It’s the same with shipping logs offshore and allowing someone else to do the value added stuff. It seems silly.

Someone needs to do some proper selling instead of just taking orders! Sell the sizzle man !..oops..
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March 24, 2009 1:30pm
greenfly

My argument is not with meat or vege. Eat what ever you like but don’t make it suffer. A long ocean journey where thousands of sheep died cruely is appalling and shouldn’t be repeated. National have just given the go ahead for more long ocean journeys, after a period when they were deemed unacceptable. National is for farmers, but not for their animals. Significant difference.
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March 24, 2009 1:41pm
Ryan Sproull

Isn’t it already illegal to torture animals in New Zealand? Or does it not apply in international waters and stuff.
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March 24, 2009 1:57pm
MT_Tinman

Greenfly I don’t expect you to accept this simply because experience has shown that you and reality divorced quite some time ago but while the conditions you describe may have existed many many years ago, just as they existed for human cargo many many years ago, they certainly did not exist in sheep shipments ex New Zealand 20 years ago and nor will they exist in future shipments.

There are too many eyes on them along with too much cost and profit involved for them to.

The main hardship for the average sheep to endure while sailing to Saudi (or any other overseas port) nowdays is the need to share one steward between three individual cabins.
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March 24, 2009 2:20pm
Patrick Starr

you could solve this problem with a little genetic engineering- cube shaped sheep in a container?
(or cross breed them with whales and have them swim)
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March 24, 2009 2:43pm
Razork

LOL, brilliant Patrick!
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March 24, 2009 3:25pm
getstaffed

Too busy to blog. Bugger. Bye
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March 24, 2009 3:32pm
greenfly

Must have lost touch with reality MT_Tinman. This article is responsible, I guess.

In 1990, the Cormo Express, sailing from New Zealand , lost 10,000 sheep to death from various causes. Also in 1990, thousands of sheep were stranded on board the Mawashi Al Gasseem for 16 weeks, after it was rejected by Saudi Arabia . That incident ended New Zealand trade in live sheep with the kingdom

20 years you say ?

many many years ago, they certainly did not exist in sheep shipments ex New Zealand 20 years ago and nor will they exist in future shipments

Let them rot and fester, I say. After all, they’re only sheep!
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March 24, 2009 3:51pm
greenfly

MT_Tinman?
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March 24, 2009 4:27pm
Banana Llama

UK population must fall to 30m!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5950442.ece

Now, how are they going to accomplish a reduction of 30 million good folk from the UK population within projected timelines?
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March 24, 2009 4:29pm
PhilBest

I didn’t notice this till now, from yesterday:

Poliwatch (13) Vote: 3 0 Says:

March 23rd, 2009 at 10:57 pm
“Tomsk, you make a valid point – the world is changing before our eyes and no-one realises it.

Are we witnessing the end of the great American Empire? Like all Empires they rise and they fall usually driven by events that lead to economic calamities. WW1 saw the destruction of several European Empires although some such as the British struggled on through the Depression and WW2 to finally collapse. And these are just recent examples in history…..”

This is not just about America. This is the whole of Christendom. Europe has been walking dead for years already. It is only America that has prolonged the existence of Europe in the free democratic form that we know it. America is possibly history’s only benign empire that has acted more in the role of protector than occupier.
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March 24, 2009 4:31pm
PhilBest

I’ll let the subject I raised at the beginning of the thread concerning the worldwide economic crash and NZ’s own vulnerability, rest.

If the way the karma has gone is indicative of the wider public’s sentiments, we are SCREWED. We will get ours yet. Don’t say I didn’t try and warn you.
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March 24, 2009 4:34pm
PhilBest

Banana Llama (228) Vote: 1 0 Says:

March 24th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
“UK population must fall to 30m!”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5950442.ece

“Now, how are they going to accomplish a reduction of 30 million good folk from the UK population within projected timelines?”

Hitler could have been locked up forever back in about 1925.

We may regret not doing this to Jonathan Porritt and Al Gore and a few others of their ilk. Evil ideas start somewhere. That’s all I can say.
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March 24, 2009 4:37pm
greenfly

MT_Tinman – am I to take from your silence/absence that you have recognised that your claims were wildly wrong and that you don’t wish to continue the discussion re. sheep shipments or should I just think that you’ve slunk off?
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March 24, 2009 8:59pm
reid

National is for farmers, but not for their animals. Significant difference.

Bzzzzzzzt, greenfly.

If you knew anything about farmers you’d know they care for their animals, all the time. Can’t have it both ways, greenfly.

Do you really think it’s not possible to resume live shipments in a humane way? Do you really think our technology is so ill conceived that no matter what we do this is not possible?
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March 24, 2009 9:06pm
philu

“..If the way the karma has gone is indicative of the wider public’s sentiments, we are SCREWED…”

um..!..weren’t you one of the ones jeering at me for the last two+ years i have been warning this blog about this upcoming economic meltdown..?

..wha’ happened..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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March 24, 2009 9:35pm
reid

um..!..weren’t you one of the ones jeering at me for the last two+ years

Personally I jeered and jeered phil. But that’s because it was fun, not because I also didn’t know it was happening.

You weren’t the only one who knew mate, wish you’d stop pretending you were.
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March 24, 2009 9:47pm
lofty

Hello Trevor Mallard are you still reading this blog?
Cause I am still waiting to hear your answer to your outrageous claim that employees should not work for employers who have less than 20 staff, because they will be fired after 90 days regardless of their work rate, ethic etc.
Cmon mallard you big blouse i have been away spending money hand over fist on holiday in the SI for 2 weeks, so may have missed your reply to my previous challenge. Happy to spread my dough around other business folk, may have saved a worker after 90 days, who knows.
I know that all my workers are safe in their jobs.
So come on you big bully shit, explain yourself, I know you will read this.
Oh thats right you will be busy in opposition won’t you?
Perhaps you can explain what it is you do again.
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March 24, 2009 9:48pm
Patrick Starr

Philu – its not predicting a catastrophe that makes one smart, (particularly when they predict so many that never eventuate). Its correctly analysing the reasons why it will occur that makes someone smart.

It’s like the Greens sticking medals on their chests predicting petrol would hit $2 a litre – it had to happen at some stage (but not for the reasons the Greens stated)
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March 24, 2009 10:10pm
reid

You realise Patrick, phil is now going to start listing all his whore.co.nz articles on why it was going to happen.

Do you know what you’ve done?
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March 24, 2009 10:15pm
Banana Llama

Sounds cool Reid, it will be like deciphering Morse code.
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March 24, 2009 10:21pm
greenfly

reid – admire your faith and I’ll bet the sheep do too, but one of the significant factors,
thousands of sheep were stranded on board the Mawashi Al Gasseem for 16 weeks, after it was rejected by Saudi Arabia
could be kinda hard to factor in. Looking foward to your ideas to cover similar eventualities (as are thousands of sheep). Clearly, National has done the groundwork and can assure us that there will be no repeat of that ‘unfortunate event’. Waiting expectantly for your response.

Btw. I know a great deal about farmers, having spent a good deal of time on sheep, beef and dairy farms over the years. I’ve seen, up close just how much farmers do (and don’t ‘care’ for their animals).
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March 24, 2009 10:23pm
reid

“I’ve seen, up close just how much farmers do (and don’t ‘care’ for their animals).”

Really, so have I. Your mileage must differ. I’ve found them to be very caring and respectful, it is their livelihood after all. Unless you’re a sadist, they’re no advantage in degrading your stock. Can’t say I’ve ever met any sadistic farmers.

Anyhoo: re live shipments. You appear to allege they are ipso facto cruel. How so?

Do you think that modern science, technology and legal thinking is somehow incapable of developing a solution acceptable to all concerned, not least of whom are the subject animals? If so, why?
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March 24, 2009 10:44pm
greenfly

reid – this is not like you. you have ignored the reason I put foward (extremely long delays at the other end) and assumed wrongly that I imply that farmers are cruel to their animals. Dissapointing from you. I don’t think modern science incapable of a solution but … see my ‘unavoidable delays’ comment. I believe the sheep would rather have me making the decision, than you. Good night.
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March 24, 2009 11:02pm
wikiriwhis business

David,

did you twitter Young Labour want to listen to you?

I know you could give them some indepth economic appraisals and projections for the next couple of years, but if they

haven’t got anyone from their own side to do that, doesn’t that say they need to swap allegiances?
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March 24, 2009 11:16pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Lest we forget:
Serbs to mark bombing anniversary

Hundreds of innocent Serbs dead thanks to that waste of space president Bill “Blowjobs in the Oval Office” Clinton.
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March 24, 2009 11:19pm
reid

Well greenfly, I’ve read the whole thread and you seem to be saying that it happened in the past [in the 90’s] and therefore it will inevitably happen again.

Not sure that I agree with that, not that it may not happen again, it might, but it doesn’t have to. If it does, then that is surely counter-productive for all concerned so one would expect them to have processes in place to avoid the possibility as much as practically possible.
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March 24, 2009 11:20pm

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