Vatican rejects apology

March 2nd, 2009 at 4:00 pm by David Farrar

Reuters reports:

The Vatican has rejected an apology from a bishop whose denial of the caused international uproar between Jews and Catholics, saying it did not meet its demand for a full and public recanting.

Good.

Williamson told Swedish television in an interview broadcast on Jan. 21, “I believe there were no gas chambers”. He said no more than 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, rather than the 6 million accepted by mainstream historians.

In his statement on Thursday, Williamson said, “I can truthfully say that I regret having made such remarks, and that if I had known beforehand the full harm and hurt to which they would give rise, especially to the Church, but also to survivors and relatives of victims of injustice under the Third Reich, I would not have made them.”

Yes he has apologised only for the hurt, not for the views. I also found it interesting he could not bring himself to mention “Jews” in his apology. That would be too much for an anti-semite.

I’ve now worked out why he is such an anti-semite:

The row over Williamson has led many to take a closer look at the SSPX, its view of Jews and its future in the Church.

The Vatican says that before the SSPX can be fully readmitted into the Church, its leaders and members must first accept the teachings of the 1962-1965 Second Vatican Council, which urged respect for Judaism and other religions.

One of its key documents, “Nostra Aetate” (In Our Times), repudiated the concept of collective Jewish guilt for Christ’s death.

This explains a lot. He actually believes the Jews did kill Jesus and are collectively guilty for it. What a nutter.

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44 Responses to “Vatican rejects apology”

  1. oob (190 comments) says:

    “Anti-Semite” is a Hebrew term. In English it translates as “pro-peace and pro-justice.”

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  2. James (1,338 comments) says:

    “This explains a lot. He actually believes the Jews did kill Jesus and are collectively guilty for it. What a nutter.”

    Mad Christian collectivists are as bad as their socialist collectivist brothers…both think in groups not individuals…..no suprise.

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  3. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    He actually believes the Jews did kill Jesus and are collectively guilty for it.

    Is he really that much more of a nutter than any Jew or Christian?

    They believe that some guy call Adam sinned, and we are all collectively being punished for that, even though weren’t born at the time and did not participtae in the sin.

    Let’s just be honest – Anyone who believes in any religion is, by definition, a nutter.

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  4. PaulL (5,965 comments) says:

    Well, if you were to go believing the bible, doesn’t it actually say the Jews killed Jesus? How do we go about believing the bible without believing that bit? As others have noted, once you start believing some of the other weird stuff in there, believing the Jews killed Jesus and have collective guilt for it is a pretty small step.

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  5. GPT1 (2,116 comments) says:

    To be fair the Jews did kill Jesus. It was a bit embarrassing really given he was the son of God. Still, it is poor manners to mention it these days!

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  6. Lou (43 comments) says:

    I thought the Roman soldiers did the actual killing???
    Yes? No?

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  7. baxter (893 comments) says:

    I would have thought the Pope would insist that the Bishop be escorted around those concentration camps still standing and make his Public recantation from the sites.

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  8. joeAverage (311 comments) says:

    Yep the romans killed Jesus,ie crucified/stabbed him with a spear in the side, so this roman/a pre catholic, soldier killed our lord not the jews, so did this catholic bishop have a bad sexual experiance with a little jewish boy???? in the past, (dirty old catholic) bishop, did he get caught with his pants down????

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  9. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Had dinner in a Hotel in Agadir, Morocco.

    Long story short, we met a lovely couple. She was a Doctor. From Germany.

    Her story was intrigueing. and yes she had her Concentration Camp tattoo.

    It may never have happened of course. Like Gaza is really wonderful historical beaut of a city.?

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  10. goodgod (1,348 comments) says:

    It was Jewish leadership that approached their Roman overlord Pontius Pilate to have a man called Jesus put to death for being a threat to their faith and traditions. That’s where the ball started rolling, apparently. So it’s historical record rather than crazy belief… if anything from 37AD can be accurate historical record.

    Awfully long time to bear a grudge though, especially if the death of christ was known to himself and god well before the jews got it into their head he was a threat. Wouldn’t you think that they merely played their part? No death of christ, no resurrection, no modern christianity.

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  11. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    Well, that’s waht I’ve always said about Judas. He was worth more than all the other hangers on combined, as without Judas…

    That arsehold god took Judas and played with Him like a pawn.

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  12. tvb (4,360 comments) says:

    I do feel this Pope treats holocaust deniers far more leniently than he does homosexuals whom he thinks should be damned. Perhaps it is that jews reject Jesus as the son of god and deserve eternal damnation so their murderers should be excused. I am not sure. But there is something not quite right with this Pope despite his powerful intellect.

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  13. Serum (4 comments) says:

    “ “Anti-Semite” is a Hebrew term. In English it translates as “pro-peace and pro-justice.” “

    The writer of that little pearl of Judeophobic distortion would qualify as a member of the Bishop Williamson’s fan club.

    The credit for the coining of the term Anti-Semite, if credit is the right word, is given to the obscure writer Wilhelm Marr, whose pamphlet “The Victory of Jewdom Over Germandom Viewed from a Non-confessional Standpoint,” published in 1873, was the first to insist that, as he put it in a later work: “There must be no question here of parading religious prejudices when it is a question of race and when the difference lies in the ‘blood’.” Borrowing from the fashionable theories of the French racist Count Joseph Arthur de Gobineau, Marr contrasted Jews not with Christians but with Germans, insisting that the two were distinct races. Marr went on to invent and introduce the word ‘antisemitism’into the political lexion – before that hatred of Jews was simply called Jew-hatred – and, in 1879, to found the League of Antisemites, the world’s first organization with this word in its title. It was dedicated, as he said, to reducing the Jewish influence on German life.

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  14. ross (1,437 comments) says:

    > Yes he has apologised only for the hurt, not for the views.

    Yes, how dare the man have a personal opinion different from yours. I suggest you immediately inform the Vatican as to your personal opinion and why it should be treated as gospel. Free speech? Yeah, right.

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  15. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    Anybody know why Easter and Passover are usually around the same time?

    Well the last supper they were eating was actually the Jewish Passover meal – Jesus was killed by the Romans for Practicing Judaism – which the Romans had banned all practice of.

    Kinda puts more of a perspective on things, doesn’t it.

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  16. Don the Kiwi (1,705 comments) says:

    Just a reasoned response to some genuine, and some pathetic comments on Williamson, Jesus, and the Pope.

    Williamson is NOT a bishop in the Catholic Church. He was invalidly ordained bishop in a schismatic – or breakaway – group. The pope merely lifted the excommunication order from him and three others, reuniting them into the Catholic Church – his ordination as a bishop though, does not stand.

    The history supporting Jesus’ existence is much more voluminous, accurate and specific than that supporting the existence of Julius Caesar – or the Buddha, or Confucius. I mean, we even date our years from the date of his birth. And I guess one third of the worlds population must have it all wrong, eh?

    Simon Lyall, in his little scoff about the bread and wine being changed into the body and blood of Christ, needs to check the record. As recently as 1980, the World Health Organisation conducted a scientific study on some flesh and blood which date back to an event in the ninth century known as “The Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano”, and found it to be genuine. For those interested, you may check out therealpresence.com , which enumerates a number of other miracles.
    , The pope – and indeed the Catholic Church – does not treat homosexuals badly. The church, and indeed all the christian churches along with many secular organisations consider the condition of homosexuality as disordered, and therfore unatural, and morally wrong. However, the person who may have this disorder is respected in his human dignity and personhood.

    Oh, BTW, MynameisJack, you are condemning a major part of humanity. Uuummm……..you’re probably right ;-)

    Finally,The Jews did not kill Jesus. The Roman soldiers did, by crucifying him just outside Jerusalem. A group of Jewish religious leaders known as Pharisees – not all of whom rejected Jesus – agitated to have Jesus crucified, as they were pretty pissed off with him, and what he was saying – mainly, his claim that he was the son of God.

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  17. big bruv (13,718 comments) says:

    Ah yes…Easter, almost time for DPF’s annual “why can’t I buy a flat white on Easter Sunday thread” :)

    I do hope you 365 day shoppers can come up with a better argument this time, it is rather tiresome beating up on you guys year after year.

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  18. Haiku Dave (265 comments) says:

    jews did not kill christ,
    they extraordinarily
    rendered him, at worst

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  19. fishe (161 comments) says:

    Don the Kiwi…miracles reported like this are clearly in the same category of UFO sightings and stories of anal probes. No verifiable evidence, all personal accounts, lots of sociocultural factors involved.

    I struggle to see why certain sects try and prove them and constantly fail or just look stupid. It’s like water dowsers.

    Oh, and this is way too big to get into, but homosexuality? disordered and hence morally wrong…so where do you draw the line of morally wrong? Is autism morally wrong – that is disordered and unnatural and caused by significant heritable factors. Let’s not confuse the issue by avoiding the fact that it is the nature of the disorder which Catholics find unappealing.

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  20. Haiku Dave (265 comments) says:

    that ‘son of god’ stuff…
    a bit arrogant? a bit
    brian tamaki?

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  21. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    Without ‘Son of God’
    no Tamaki
    no Destiny
    but many want ‘Son of God’

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  22. ropata (117 comments) says:

    Simon Lyall, quite close on paragraphs 1 and 2 (eucharist and miracles of Christ), but it is a weird distortion to insist on a literalist, 21st-century interpretation of a collection of ancient writings from a totally different culture and (oral) tradition. There’s nothing to suggest that Earth is 10000yo (apart from one literal-minded mediaeval bishop), and the Eden story could easily be figurative. The RCC’s vast scholarship and historical perspective commands a lot more respect than ephemeral comments on a blog.

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  23. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    “The RCC’s vast scholarship and historical perspective commands a lot more respect than ephemeral comments on a blog.”

    Grand statement and I would be loath to discredit the years, decades and centuries of hard work and respected endeavour of monks and scholars through history.

    But Protestism has much to be owed in opening the scriptures to the common people and mass producing those scriptures ‘That even a farm boy can read them’

    Cathlocism worked hard to keep that knowledge fom the masses because the scriptures contradicted their own teachings.

    Which is why they conducted mass in Latin. There would have been no King James Version from Rome. Any Bible schoalor accepts the authority and divinity of the KJV.

    Ultimately, the KJV lines up with the Dead Sea Scrolls from long before which contains much of Isiaiah.

    Also many claims of the Old Testament have been proven including whole cultures which had previously been denied by historians. Even the Ark has been filmed from Mt Ararat. I have seen that footage myself back in the nineties.

    The Bible is also the only scriptural writing that predicts the future. Not so the Koran or Book of Mormon.

    And the seals of those predictions are being loosed as we speak.

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  24. ropata (117 comments) says:

    wb, I’m not a Catholic but have a science background and unfortunately most of the “scientific” emissions from the American evangelical churches are mediocre populist fluff that cannot withstand genuine academic scrutiny (that’s part of the reason i respect the RCC). Also I wouldn’t bother with a “biblical worldview” — just look at the actual world around you and try to make it a better place. It’s OK to question anything in the Christian faith, God can handle it.

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  25. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    Agreed Ropata.

    Unfortunately, the US substitutes Spirituality with morality. And has suffered a great deal because of it.

    The more the scriptures are questioned over the centuries, the more they have revealed to their credit.

    Most scientists now are believers of intelligent design

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  26. mavxp (479 comments) says:

    OK, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. Lets start with what we know:

    *The Holocaust did happen. It resulted in the death of some 6 million jews at the hands of the nazi authorities in Germany and their occupied countries, from France, Netherlands, Belgium, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Russia, Hungary, Austria, Italy, Greece and the former Yugoslavia. They were systematic and ruthless, and the evidence is insurmountable.

    *Jesus ben Joseph was a Jewish man who travelled and taught in the Roman province of Judea in the early 1st century according to historical literature than includes the gospels -written after Jesus’ death based on witnessed accounts of his life and other historical records such as the Jewish/Roman historian Josephus. Most historians and even atheist/ agnostic theologians agree it was highly likely that this man actually existed.

    *Jesus being Jewish, would have lived as a Jew -attending synagogue and generally following the law of Moses including visiting the temple in Jerusalem. His followers were also 99% Jewish or those foreigners who had converted to Judiasm.

    *The gospel accounts note that Jesus knew and hinted that his purpose in life from the beginning was self-sacrificial, although his disciples didn’t understand. He picked arguments with the Jewish religious leaders (Pharasees) and deliberately showed them to be hypocrits in front of the crowds that followed him. He also willingly gave himself over to the Jewish authorities when they came to arrest him. He could have been set free by Pilate, but refused to speak in his own defence. Many at the time were expectant of a militant messiah (as prophesied in the OT), but Jesus avoided this seeking to establish a “spiritual kingdom” rather than a physical one. He talked in parables and riddles that can be understood clearly with hindsight (knowing what would happen to him), but at the time they confused and caused the religious leaders to fear he would start a rebellion against Rome, who they were in collusion with. The religious leaders (of whom Josephus was a part of) were disliked and thought of as traitors by the Jewish people, and the country seethed with discontent – resulting ultimately in the rebellion of 70AD and the destruction of the temple and the start of the Jewish diaspora. Jesus also said remarkably ballsy things such as claiming to be the son of God. To this day Jews find this difficult to stomach, as do Muslims, who see this as a blasphemy – how can a man be God? It sounds like idolatory. This is ultimately what they killed him for – following the Mosaic law that such a punishment was required. Jesus knew the consequences, and if anything controlled the situation towards his pre-planned outcome.

    *According to the gospel accounts a Jewish mob, incited/ paid by the religious authorities did yell “crucify him” to Pilate, who caved in. His friends such as Peter denied him, and his other disciples fled in fear. Humanity let Jesus down, not the Jews per se. But with hindsight this was supposedly a part of Jesus’ plan.

    *The disciples after Jesus death suddenly gained enough conviction to preach that Jesus had been raised from the dead, and according to the gospels, 100’s of people saw him alive afterwards and believed this was true. The early church was made up predominantly of Jews and Jewish communities in other parts of the Roman empire – eg Ethiopia, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Greece, Rome etc.

    *The church only became more Greek and Roman with the work of Paul of Tarsus – a zealous member of the Jewish authorities who used to hunt down followers of Jesus and haul them back to Jerusalem for trial. He converted famously on the road to Damascus while on one such “rendition” operation. He turned Christianity from a small but rapidly growing Jewish sect into an open religion for all peoples. Those Jews who remained followers of the Mosaic law and did not accept Jesus as the messiah, were the ancestors of the practicing Jewish people we know today.

    Today, to consider Jews responsible for Jesus death is so outlandish its rediculous, and it misses the whole point of *why* Jesus died, which is far more important than *who* did it.

    If Jesus is who he said he was, it is of supreme importance for everyone to find out more about him. If he is not, then it is not worth worrying about.

    my 5c

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  27. Haiku Dave (265 comments) says:

    forgive them father
    they know not what they do, the
    bunch of utter pricks

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  28. ropata (117 comments) says:

    thanks maxvp, brilliant! been to Bible college have ya?
    haiku dave: very zen — i.e. nonsense.

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  29. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    wikiriwhis business (526) Vote: 0 1 Says:

    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:28 am
    Agreed Ropata.

    Most scientists now are believers of intelligent design

    Don’t you mean most scientists at the Discovery Insttute?

    Care to provide some proof of your fatuous claim?

    How many biological scientists believe in ID? And don’t you think its a bit odd that a scientist should “believe” in an aspectof science since science, by its very nature, is the opposite of belief?

    Oh, hang on, you’re not talking about science at all, are you? You’re talking about crationisms Trojan Horse. well, the Trojans fell for it, but the rest of us can see right through this god of the gaps bullshit.

    The more the scriptures are questioned over the centuries, the more they have revealed to their credit.

    Don’t you mean that the more science has discovered, the smaller the gaps your god is forced in to.

    If ID is science, please list its main theories, the proofs for those theories and citations of peer reviewed experiemnts in ID in scientific journals, not church pamphlets.

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  30. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    and….back to the topic….

    >>
    Vatican rejects apology

    Reuters reports:

    The Vatican has rejected an apology from a bishop whose denial of the Holocaust caused international uproar between Jews and Catholics, saying it did not meet its demand for a full and public recanting.

    Good.

    Williamson told Swedish television in an interview broadcast on Jan. 21, “I believe there were no gas chambers”. He said no more than 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, rather than the 6 million accepted by mainstream historians.

    In his statement on Thursday, Williamson said, “I can truthfully say that I regret having made such remarks, and that if I had known beforehand the full harm and hurt to which they would give rise, especially to the Church, but also to survivors and relatives of victims of injustice under the Third Reich, I would not have made them.”

    Yes he has apologised only for the hurt, not for the views. I also found it interesting he could not bring himself to mention “Jews” in his apology. That would be too much for an anti-semite.

    I’ve now worked out why he is such an anti-semite:

    The row over Williamson has led many to take a closer look at the SSPX, its view of Jews and its future in the Church.

    The Vatican says that before the SSPX can be fully readmitted into the Church, its leaders and members must first accept the teachings of the 1962-1965 Second Vatican Council, which urged respect for Judaism and other religions.

    One of its key documents, “Nostra Aetate” (In Our Times), repudiated the concept of collective Jewish guilt for Christ’s death.

    This explains a lot. He actually believes the Jews did kill Jesus and are collectively guilty for it. What a nutter.
    >>

    Really, who gives a f*ck.

    One bunch of hypocritical abusers of religion/power disses another bunch of hypocritical abusers of religion/power.

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  31. KiwiGreg (3,244 comments) says:

    Pretty sure the Romans killed Christ, not the Jews. But I wasn’t there so cant be sure.

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  32. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    wikiriwhis, I think Billy Borker has you there. But I’d like to tackle another of your follies:

    The Bible is also the only scriptural writing that predicts the future.

    Care to name 10? 5? 3? of these predictions and when they will be fullfilled?

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  33. PhilBest (5,121 comments) says:

    As Lee Strobel points out in “The Case For Christ”, the events recorded by the gospel writers are probably the most historically verifiable of any part of ancient history; we take the lives of Alexander and Confucius and Boadicea and all the rest of it, on the best evidence, but apparently even the best of all best evidence is not good enough when it comes to Jesus Christ.

    As is usual where our anti-Christian institutions are involved, the actual “science” of archeology and historianship is perverted; all the publicity is given to the anti-Christian minority who are actually out of step with the canon of their own discipline, due entirely to their own predetermined agenda.

    Possibly the worst ever mass deceit of humanity, is the contemporary mass deceit in Christendom that, across a wide range of infiltrated and perverted disciplines, explicitly aims at discrediting Christianity.

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  34. Ratbiter (1,265 comments) says:

    I don’t know if it’s all that sinister. Apparently there is plenty of historical/archaeological evidence completely independent of the Holy Bible of a Jesus Christ who turned up in Jerusalem and rocked the apple-cart, and was condemned and crucified for his troubles. This extra-biblical record is a bit light of any evidence that he was the Son of God and not just, say, some charismatic young political activist (a bit like – say – the young Phil Goff in his 1976 speech on another thread). But I guess that is where personal faith comes in, if you have it…

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  35. PhilBest (5,121 comments) says:

    Billy Borker, you tell us who and when has reconstructed a fossil record that “proves” evolution.

    As said above, possibly the worst ever mass deceit of humanity, is the contemporary mass deceit in Christendom that, across a wide range of infiltrated and perverted disciplines, explicitly aims at discrediting Christianity.

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  36. PhilBest (5,121 comments) says:

    Thank you, Ratbiter/RRM. I don’t have any difficulty with that assessment, but there are plenty of antichristian liberals who regard even that historical/archeological evidence as having been “debunked” by some one or other of their favourite atheist authors.

    But C. S. Lewis put it very well, that Jesus Christ did not leave us with the option of regarding Him as just a good human being/teacher/sage/political activist. Not with all the things He is recorded as having said about being Son of God and giving His life a ransom for many and such like. If you don’t believe those things, you are saying that He must have been a raving lunatic, which is a bit odd if you profess to take the ground that He was a good human being/teacher/sage/political activist.

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  37. Ratbiter (1,265 comments) says:

    I know a couple who are both pretty firm believers, and yet both have Ph.Ds in biological fields. So both are pretty well qualified to look at the evidence supporting the theory of evolution, and both seem to have no problem with the veracity of it. Nor do either seem to have any problem reconciling evolution with their christian faith. It seems to depend on how literally you interpret the early stages of the old testament, as to whether you have a problem with modern scientific thought or not…

    And neither, I would note, seem to see any sign among modern scientific thought of a vast anti-christian conspiracy, or else I doubt either of them would want to be involved with it…

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  38. Seán (397 comments) says:

    Yes he has apologised only for the hurt, not for the views. – Hypocite alert! What happened to freedom of speech etc etc? Southpark etc.? Funny how one’s views change when the subject takes on a personal meaning.

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  39. Haiku Dave (265 comments) says:

    you are not within
    guatemala now doctor
    ropata, are ya

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  40. Haiku Dave (265 comments) says:

    phil goff and jesus
    sitting in a tree, K.I.
    S.S.I.N.G

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  41. ropata (117 comments) says:

    summer rays grow dim
    dave writes another haiku
    a mayfly expires

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  42. Haiku Dave (265 comments) says:

    my heart expands and
    bursts open with joy, you’re a
    man of words my friend

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  43. ropata (117 comments) says:

    yea the poetic soul
    offers wordy libation
    cosmic hippie crap.
    ;)

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