The great pork debate
Before I get into the pros and cons, I first want to highlight this exchange from the Herald:
Agriculture Minister David Carter had earlier asked animal rights campaigners to give up the name and location of the farm shown on TVNZ’s Sunday programme.
The images showed pigs frothing at the mouth and unable to move inside their cages and aired on TVNZ’s Sunday programme.
Mr Carter said the farm would be inspected by authorities.
“The television images were disturbing. It is essential we find out if this intensive pig farming operation is in breach of the Animal Welfare Act,” Mr Carter said in a statement released this morning.
However, SAFE campaigner Hans Kriek said he would not be disclosing the information immediately.
When asked by nzherald.co.nz if that was due to publicity, Mr Kriek said yes.
“I’m not going to give you all the details of our strategy, which is a very sound one,” Mr Kriek said.
So after the documentary screened, the Minister immediately said he would investigate and wanted to send inspectors in to check if the pigs pictured were being treated in accordance with the Animal Welfare Act.
However SAFE refused to disclose the location of the farm. Yes SAFE, which claims to care for animals, refused to allow animal inspectors to find out where the farm is. And why? Because doing so would not fit in with their public relations strategy!
So SAFE puts PR ahead of animal welfare. Worth remembering.
On the issue of sow stalls, I don’t yet know enough. One expert last night said that if you don’t have them, it can be worse as the pigs fight and sometimes kill each other.
I don’t buy pork or bacon myself, but the sensible thing for those who don’t like sow crates is to buy free-range pork only.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:28 am
yummy yummy bacon in this house for breakfast.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:30 am
It is a misnomer to think that the bacon/pork you buy is from pigs kept in narrow stalls. Only birthing sows are kept in those narrow crates, ostensibly to prevent them rolling over and killing the piglets.
Once the piglets are weaned they are raised either in large concrete pens or fields. So technically just about all bacon/pork can be labbelled “free range” but the sows will still be kept in cages.
Maybe a totally “free range” pig farmer that has birthing sows “a la natural” can comment on the piglet fatality ratio under the more natural pig birthing scenario.
Birthing crates are not the answer but not sure what is.
Be interesting to have the whole pork industry in New Zealand totally “free range” and see what the market price for bacon/pork will be. Would the price be competetive with imported say Australian products.
One could envisage a whole industry going down the gurgler simply because an abhorant practice such as birthing crates has not been bought into the 22nd century.
Surely there must be a humane way to have birthing sows and their offspring in a comfortable and save situation.
That is what we should focus on.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:32 am
The issue is easily resolved.
The PIC would be happy to see the end of sow crates but they are not happy to see the end of NZ pig farmers. That’s what will happen if these idiots at SAFE get their way, if overseas producers, using sow crates, are allowed to flood our market with cheap product. That’s the problem. It costs a hell of a lot more to produce free range pork.
Legislate to outlaw the use of sow crates and at the same time put a 100% tariff on imported non free range pork and bacon products or disallow them to be imported..
May 19th, 2009 at 8:34 am
It sounds more like SAFE puts potential future operations ahead of this particular one.
In other words, there is no humane way to keep pigs without being free range?
May 19th, 2009 at 8:35 am
Why would the animal rights people not want to disclose the location? Because they have something to hide. I didn’t see the program, but my first guess would be that the footage is not actually from NZ.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:36 am
There is no excuse for animal cruelty but an organisation which is supposed to save animals from exploitation loses its credibility when it’s prepared to exploit pigs for publicity.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:40 am
I blogged about this yesterday afternoon when I read about SAFE’s delaying tactics. What a pack of pious, self-serving hypocrites. If they were seriously concerned about the pigs they had secretly filmed, they should have taken their evidence to MAF, not to TVNZ. And to delay releasing details of where the film was shot only magnified that hypocrisy. You can’t help but get the impression that SAFE is more interested in headlines than in animal welfare.
http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2009/05/safe-pork.html
May 19th, 2009 at 8:43 am
It was dissapointing that no one from the Pork Industry would be interviewed on the Sunday programme. It suggests that they have something to hide and could not defend their practices. Competition from overseas is no defence for inhumane farming practices…
May 19th, 2009 at 8:45 am
DPF’s post doesn’t mention it, but the kerfuffle really only arose because Mike King (face of the ‘NZ pork’ advertising campaign) went along to see it, and was ‘ashamed’ about his role endorsing it. I think it’s unlikely that Mike King was flown overseas to do that.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:46 am
Adolf, you’ve almost got it right, but until we have mandatory country of origin labelling, consumers are denied the right to choose the origin and type of pork, or indeed other, products.
This lack of will on the aprt of NZ governments leaves the power in the hands of the supermarkets, weaking, yet again, the power of the consumer.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:46 am
Did anyone else see an article yesterday where SAFE said they’d probably give the location away ‘tomorrow’?
May 19th, 2009 at 8:47 am
IV2 – do you think that for a non-profit organisation like this – headlines raises the profile of animal welfare and greatly helps their cause. While I don’t necessarily agree with the delay tactics in this case – you must agree that by going to the media SAFE have been able to get this issue out in the open. I guarantee this level of discussion would not be going on if they had goen direct to MAF.
Apparently they are releasing the details today. Red – I’m fairly certain the farm was in NZ.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:49 am
And so it is:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2422418/Piggery-to-be-identified-today
May 19th, 2009 at 8:50 am
I get really sick of the cost bullshit. The only way to keep animals is free range. If you cannot afford free range, dont eat it. I dont buy truffles because the cost is to high, I buy waygu beef maybe once a year, because I cannot justify the cost for more than that. Lke Adolf said, the problem is easily solved. DPF the for their own protection is bull.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:50 am
For those of you in Auckland (probably the entire country) that enjoy eating out, well almost all Asian restaurants and takeaway joints use imported pork. The reason is simple…. COST.
However if you see it uncooked it is revolting. Obviously one of the reasons Asians use so many spices on their food is to disguise the main ingredient meat. The sooner they ban imported pork the happier I will be.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Further to Stephen’s post – I heard MK on the radio yesterday saying he rode (his Harley, oh dear…) 9 hours back to Auckland straight to do his radio show. So how far can you get in 9 hours on a Harley…depends how many times it breaks down I suppose
(apologies for biker in-joke)
May 19th, 2009 at 8:52 am
Not1 – could they not have gone to MAF and TVNZ simultaneously?
May 19th, 2009 at 8:55 am
I think SAFE should be charged with animal cruelty. There is absolutely no justification what so ever for allowing animals to suffer. I put SAFE’s actions up there with the farmers who indulge in these practices. Once again it is shown that this sort of activism is more about the activists than the cause. I would love to keep these idiots in those crates for the 48 hours or 72 hours that they delayed in telling inspectors where this farm is.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:56 am
Well possibly IV2 – but I do wonder if MAF would have tried to pursuade them not to go to the media in case it jepordised any investigation. Or maybe SAFE feel like MAF don’t listen to them and their complaints fall on deaf ears. But fair enough, I don’t know the ins and outs – this is speculation.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:57 am
Ah, so it’s a bit crowded over at The Standard right now
May 19th, 2009 at 8:57 am
I can understand SAFE’s strategy DPF. Targeting just one pig farm won’t make a jot of a difference, and the farmer Mike King visited will know who he or she is and will have cleaned the place up by the time the inspectors get there.
I grew up on a pig farm (one where the pigs romed free around paddocks, I might add), so know something about the industry. Half the bloody pig farms in the country are like the one he visited.
The Standard have just published the video of Mike King’s visit, and I have published an Open Rescue video of a pig farm from a couple of years ago at g.blog. They are pretty shocking stuff, and it demands high level political action from the Minister, not just targetting one or two farms.
You’re right about one thing though DPF – what we can all do is buy only free range (or better still, organic) pork.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:02 am
The PIC was quite right to decline any comment. I have seen the way Sunday operates and they cannot be trusted to be balanced and fair.
Perhaps Mike King will cease eating fish because of the cruel and inhumane death suffered by these innocent creatures when they are caught up in a trawl net.
The production of food and fibre from livestock always has and always will be a compromise to find the least painful and inhumane method of husbandry. The Australian practice of muelsing is a classic example. The SAFE people, a bit like Greanpeace, would prefer to see human starvation.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:02 am
The reason I heard for delaying was that the Minister was deliberately trivialising the issue by saying “show us this farmer and we will investigate” – seeding in the mind of the public the idea that it was some random/rogue farmer when he must know full well the it is standard industry practice.
Not saying I agree with SAFE but from a strategic point of view I can understand wanting to keep a story alive rather than let one person kill it by pretending it was a one farm issue.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:05 am
Does organic necessarily mean they’ll be free range, or just ‘probably’?
May 19th, 2009 at 9:08 am
They just announced on the 9am news on National that the is near Levin, the owner’s name (I can’t recall it now), and that he is a past director of the PIC.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:08 am
This is a beatup story. Pork tastes like pork, whether organic farming or not. Also the tastes is indistinguishable regardless of how the pigs are being raised in the farm. This issue has bee pushed by the Greenies for some years now, that they think pigs are more important than humans.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:10 am
They are pretty shocking stuff, and it demands high level political action from the Minister, not just targetting one or two farms.
So how come ‘high level political action’ was not sought when Labour was in power? Surely SAFE knew about the conditions at these piggeries longer than Nationals reign in power, so why are we just hearng about it all now?
It just strikes me as odd that these so called rights activists go rather quiet when their buddies are in power…
May 19th, 2009 at 9:14 am
I have blogged on this over at the standard:
http://www.thestandard.org.nz/government-and-industry-response-to-factory-farming-pathetic/
Note SAFE’s reasons for not wanting to release the location of the farm immediately is because they did not want some farcical investigation by MAF to distract from the real story, which is the use of these confinement systems. Now that they have, maybe you could re look at your stance on this DPF? Note animal rights activists made a complaint to MAF about that same farm in 2006 and MAF came back saying they were not doing anything wrong. It will be interesting to see what results from their “new” investigation.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:16 am
Falafulu Fisi – have you missed the point entirely? This is not about taste. SAFE are not culinary crusaders concerned that we are being served up second rate pork on our plates. This issue is about the manner in which much of the pork we eat is being raised – in inhumane, harsh, filthy conditions.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:22 am
Re the great pork debate. I’ll wait about another few days, then I’m going grocery shopping and fill my chest freezer with pork of all cuts — they should be quite cheap by the weekend.
Anyone for Sunday roast?
May 19th, 2009 at 9:27 am
Bevan said: So how come ‘high level political action’ was not sought when Labour was in power?
It was sought, Bevan. And Labour chose as much as possible to obfuscate and ignore the calls then, just as I suspect National will now.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Born-again campaigner for pig’s rights Mike King has belatedly found a new cause to help raise his profile and resurrect his stalled career as a “comedian”.
But hang on, this is the same Mike King who was sprung recently leaving threats of violence on Newsboy’s phone. At the time King regretted this exposure of his violent side, and he then spun the line that he had mental health issues, work and stress problems etc etc, and that he had got treatment and sorted out his life. I thought at the time that the Pork Industry did well to retain him as their spokesperson – without having to make a public statement that their product was in no way responsible for Mike’s “problems”.
Now we see Mike King breaking into pig-farms, to expose the industry he had previously been so happy to enjoy the financial profits from. Launching his new career as a pig-whisperer, Mike (now thankfully over his previous “problems”) gazed into the pigs eyes in the murky darkness, and they told him they were unhappy, and “lost, completely lost”. He went on to say they were “like a mad man walking back and forth talking to himself” (Mike’s words – I can’t argue with him there) and that “it was like being in a mental institution”.
We’ve heard Mike’s message from the pigs – but when will the media provide us with some balanced journalism, and interview the pigs themselves?
We need both sides of the story, not just the unverifiable anecdotal claims of the pigs’ complaints…from a “disgruntled” former Pork Industry spokesperson.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:38 am
3-Coil,
Which of the following are you denying?
1. That the pigs are suffering intolerably.
2. That Mike King didn’t know the extent of this before seeing it first-hand.
3. That the farm he saw is reflective of pig farming in New Zealand in general.
And video evidence is a bit more than anecdotal. People who saw that footage aren’t relying on Mike King’s word and empathy for their belief that the pigs are being treated inhumanely – they’re relying on their own eyes and their own sense of right and wrong.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:43 am
Enclosed farming began as a response to the problems of disease in pigs, and that need will still be there: trichinosis really is a problem. Free-range means that pigs interact with rats, possums and other animals which can carry transmittable diseases, as well as make contact with pathogenic rich moist soil. However, free-range does taste better- boars with their testes removed six months before slaughter are probably the best.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:47 am
The farmer, who identified himself to MAF when SAFE wouldn’t, planned to close the farm when he got permission to build a new site to replace the 30+ year old sheds. Unfortunately, the resource management process took 3 years and the new farm still hasn’t been built.
As to suffering pigs, wouldn’t you crap yourself and scream if idiots with bright lights and cameras burst into your bedroom in the middle of the night?
May 19th, 2009 at 9:53 am
The sight of that pig farm on TV1 surprised me, because I went through a large intensive pig farm a couple of months ago, and it was nothing like that. It was a casual and unplanned visit with a friend of a friend, with no other purpose except curiosity, so was no way rigged just for me. I have no association with the industry whatsoever, apart from enjoying the occasional bacon and egg breakfast, ham sandwich or roast pork dinner.
Yes, there were sows in farrowing pens, for the safety of the piglets that otherwise get crushed during their early weeks, but the sows did not spend their whole lives there. The process involved a lot of moving around through the breeding and fattening cycles. I don’t think there was any free range in this particular farm, but a good part of the breeding cycle was spent in large pens open to the outdoors on the sunny north side.
Yes, there was a distinctive smell, but really only once you were indoors. Plenty of ventilation and sawdust on the floor, efficient temperature control, feeding and drainage systems, and regular cleaning.
No, there was not the filth, and absolutely no sign of the psychological stress in the animals shown on the programme. In fact, you would have to say the animals were lively, curious and looking healthy.
No, there was no screaming to be heard from afar. More like the pretty contented grunting you might expect.
What I saw was a well run large scale factory farm, where the owner equated healthy and content animals with profits. Not my personal cup of tea, exactly, but impressive, and nothing like as disturbing as the images shown on Sunday. I have to say I thought these pigs lived more comfortably than the free range farmed pigs I have seen living out in open paddocks exposed to the full sun, rain and snow.
Reflecting on my visit, it seems to me this current kerfuffle might be over one bad apple in a barrel, and that this orchestrated attack on the industry as a whole, as opposed to that one bad apple, might be motivated by something else. Not European trade issues again, I hope.
The pork industry should get TV1 through an intensive pig farm like the one I went to, and get this thing balanced up; and get their bad apple(s) sorted out by MAF. Fast.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:59 am
Ryan (9:38am) – I suggest you read DPF’s later post: “A Reader Writes on Pig-Farming”.
To answer your points:
1 See post recommended above. Mike King starts wandering around among the pigs in the dead of night, bright camera lights etc – pigs think: “feeding time” (they squeal when they are excited).
2 If you believe the word of Mike the pig-whisperer, good on you – but I don’t believe anything he says (except maybe when he doesn’t realise it’s to be made public eg the phone threats to Newsboy).
3 I don’t know – you tell me, have you seen them all?
I said the pigs’ complaints (relayed via Mike King, when he looked into their eyes…) were “anecdotal”. Once again, you may chose to accept this as “fact”, but I do not. All I requested was that if we have to suspend belief and listen to Mike King channeling messages from a sow, then we should hear the other side of the story too!
May 19th, 2009 at 10:06 am
“No, there was no screaming to be heard from afar. More like the pretty contented grunting you might expect.”
If you have ever been at a piggery when the slop is being dispensed, you know pigs screaming, and when it happens.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:08 am
So now Mike King is ashamed to be part of the pork industry, will he give all the money he earned from it back?
May 19th, 2009 at 10:21 am
“I think it’s unlikely that Mike King was flown overseas to do that.”
Fair enough. My suspicion on the reason for the reticence was wrong.
Nevertheless, from what has transpired recently, the reason for the delay was that it would lead to the exposure of the program as just more of the propaganda and lies that identify today’s NZ media, and TVNZ in particular.
So I was right in one way in my expectation that the delay was down to some kind of deceit.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:41 am
It was sought, Bevan. And Labour chose as much as possible to obfuscate and ignore the calls then, just as I suspect National will now.
So why no publicity then? Why didnt your lot seek Mike King out then to highlight the issue? Or is this a case of softly softly when comrade Labour is holding power?
May 19th, 2009 at 10:46 am
If you have ever been at a piggery when the slop is being dispensed, you know pigs screaming, and when it happens.
Regardless of whether you have pigs free range, or in a cage they will squeel when you come to feed them – much like a dog will wag its tail when you approach it with foood.
And yes, Ive been to a pig stall at a friends farm – roughly four square meters for four pigs – and when we took the food to them, guess what they did?
May 19th, 2009 at 11:01 am
why are these people always foriegners? usually yanks or euros.
Hans Kriek is a fucking idiot. every duck season ya hear him on the radio (personally i think of the austin powers movie).
piss off back to holland and sort there problems out.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Redbaiter said “Nevertheless, from what has transpired recently, the reason for the delay was that it would lead to the exposure of the program as just more of the propaganda and lies that identify today’s NZ media, and TVNZ in particular.
So I was right in one way in my expectation that the delay was down to some kind of deceit.”
Of course it was “some kind of deceit” RB – and it’s not as though the animal activists don’t have a track record of such things. As I have opined previously, you can’t escape the perception that SAFE is more interested in politics and grandstanding than in animal welfare.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Bevan said: So why no publicity then?
Political parties can’t dictate what the media run. Since they have been in Parliament the Greens have released over a dozen media releases, there have been at least 5 speeches by Green MPs in Parliament, and oral questions have been asked too on the issue.
Why didnt your lot seek Mike King out then to highlight the issue?
Presumed that he knew about the issues but that, as someone who was making a lot of money from the pork industry, he wasn’t interested in them. Seems that assumption was wrong, as it was only when someone from Open Rescue sent him a video of what goes on in pig farms that he started to become aware of the issues.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
If its the guy i think it is, then this particular farmer has been trying to get a new piggery built near levin for years. The RMA has prevented him from doing so. Why? Because Locals and neighbours know what kind of operation he runs. And have thrown up objection after objection.
As stated previously, I havent purchased mainstream pork product for years
May 19th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
I am a SAFE member and volunteer occasionally at their Auckland Office. I don’t officially speak on their behalf but David Carter is full of crap when he says he hadn’t known about the situation earlier because SAFE have been campaigning on this issue for a very long time – some members even talking to Carter personally about it. He’s only doing something about it now because it’s received publicity on TV.
So David – attack SAFE’s strategy if you like, but note that Carter is himself a hypocrite by saying he wants to do something about it now – because he’s been aware of the issue for far too long.
May 19th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Mike King is the sneakiest prick around just like the company he keeps (Tony Veitch, Brent Todd, etc.,).
He didn’t just advertise his pork it was his brandname, there is a difference.
Let me guess what happened, he got wind that someone was going to complain about his pig farms or pig farming generally and that his reputation would suffer, this being such a vicious Tall poppy society.
He mulled it over with his mates with a few beers and joints.
“Shit, I know, I will join the activists, in that way I won’t be implicated, I mean I’ve got all the money I want from it now.”
Clever guy, stupid Kiwi public, as usual.
About time his mate Tony veitch was back reading the news isn’t it Kiwis?
May 19th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
I doubt there is an issue here at all.
The “animal rights” nutters, by whichever acronym they chose, all use the same tactic of attempting to “humanise” the animals.
This animal (you choose the type) is forced to live in a drafty barn with a bare concrete floor amidst dirty straw and, sometimes, their own feces and urine.
Sometimes this animal does not see the sun for 12 hours at a time.
Damned near any animal farming lends itself to this sort of bullshit.
There is one animal rights group who publicise themselves by convincing idiot sheilas (professional clothes horses, those who pretend to be someone else for a living etc.) to take their kit off.
I can’t remember which outfit they are, nor can I be bothered looking it up but in that – and only in that – they have my support.
It does not surprise me that NZ television uses their propaganda nor does it surprise that politicians pretend to be concerned when they are fronted with this highly emotive crap.
It does sadden me though.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
What Rebel Heart says above is true and, in fact, I have it in writing from Mr Carter. My daughter (aged 13) wrote to David Carter in December 2008, once he’d been confirmed as the new Agriculture Minister, and informed him of her concerns about the way pigs in this country are farmed, giving details of their treatment. He replied early February. She also wrote earlier in 2008 to Jim Anderton on the same subject. Neither of their responses satisfied her concerns.
May 19th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
What a load of crap this is. I will assume that pretty much everybody here has driven through the countryside. You will have seen cows and sheep and maybe even deer. When was the last time you saw a pig from your car? Where do you think the bacon came from?
Pork, like poultry, is farmed mostly indoors. What do you expect………… the Hilton? Squealing pigs? Pigs eat, shit and squeal. So what is the problem.
The vast majority of farmers look after their stock because it is in their best interest to do so.
Mike King should stick to poker. That, at least, he knows something about.
May 19th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
“Why would the animal rights people not want to disclose the location? Because they have something to hide. I didn’t see the program, but my first guess would be that the footage is not actually from NZ.”
Yes, Redbaiter, SAFE flew Mike King, the journo from Sunday, his cameraman and team to Syria, filmed covertly in a pig farm, then flew them all back and got everyone to lie and say they were in New Zealand.
Shouldn’t there have to be some sort of IQ test before you can comment on blogs?
May 19th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
This is great news for those of us that love pork products. Will drive the price down and we can consume even more. To be encouraged!
May 19th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
I see that the farm that the SAFE people and King broke into has been found by MAF not to be in breach of the Animal Welfare code, (which I took some time this afternoon to read).
No doubt SAFE will say that the check was inept or incompetent but MAF are the authorities and would prosecute if the welfare codes were breached.
As johnbt notes the animals that were disturbed are the farmers livelyhood. It would be absolutley against his interests to treat his animals badly.
We will be voting in support of the Pork Industry and buying a nice pork roast and lots of bacon products when we are shopping this weekend.
May 19th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Who the fuck is Hans Kriek anyway? Why doesn’t he fuck off back to where he came from and maybe sort out the street drug problem in his own home town before coming here and telling us how to live our lives.
FFS I see he wants to ban duck shooting season as well
http://www.safe.org.nz/Campaigns/Duck-Shooting/
May 19th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
btw – didnt Rob Gilchrist show the cops some photos of some abused pork ?
May 19th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Typical blog histrionics so let’s simplify things for the ignorant amongst you. The issue comes down to what level of animal welfare New Zealanders want balanced against economic concerns (producer and consumer). There is no right or wrong, it is just a matter of choice.
If we are happy with existing pig farming conditions (and yes there is a mix of intensive and outside operations), or want to continue to buy cheap local pork, then fine. But if not then our representatives should do something about it. Majority rules.
Is this not obvious?
The comments I really find hard to fathom are those that seem to be upset that the issue is even raised. We live in a democracy friends and being informed is always preferable. Not that the pork board want the reality known. Remember the old axiom … two things you don’t want to see being made? Sausages and Laws.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
I see that the farm that the SAFE people and King broke into has been found by MAF not to be in breach of the Animal Welfare code, (which I took some time this afternoon to read).
No doubt SAFE will say that the check was inept or incompetent but MAF are the authorities and would prosecute if the welfare codes were breached.
As johnbt notes the animals that were disturbed are the farmers livelyhood. It would be absolutley against his interests to treat his animals badly.
We will be voting in support of the Pork Industry and buying a nice pork roast and lots of bacon products when we are shopping this weekend.
Alex – SAFE knew that MAF would not find any breaches in the law, their campaign is about changing the law so that it would be criminal to treat pigs that way. The current laws don’t give any protection for the wellbeing of pigs. From your comment it appears you didn’t watch the Sunday segment which explained that. Here’s the link to the video for you:
http://tvnz.co.nz/sunday-news/sunday-may-17-comic-tackles-pig-welfare-2741960/video
You say it’s against the interests of the farmers to treat animals badly – up until now this hasn’t been a very highly publicised issue so they have been able to get away with such cruel treatment.
Who the fuck is Hans Kriek anyway? Why doesn’t he fuck off back to where he came from and maybe sort out the street drug problem in his own home town before coming here and telling us how to live our lives.
You don’t even know how many years Hans has been here in NZ, all you noticed was an accent and decided he doesn’t belong in NZ? FFS.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
‘ZACTLY.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
What’s interesting is that the farm in question was highlighted in a TV3 expose in 2006! Back then the same farmer was keeping pigs in cramped (and illegal) quarters. But MAF, after saying they would carry out a thorough investigation, apparently did bugger all.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:10 pm
So what did Jim Anderton do about it in 2006? – “bugger all”- wonder why…..perhaps it’s not illegal
May 20th, 2009 at 8:20 am
I didn’t mention Anderton. An animal protection outfit took similar video evidence in 2006 to the stuff we saw recently. As lawyer, Peter Zankoff (sp), said on TV3 last night, the problem is with how the law has been written. Profits are far more important than animal welfare, which means that pig farmers can get away with this sort of cruelty. Let’s ask a hypothetical question: if farmers were hit in the pocket by this latest publicity to the extent that their profits tumbled, might those farmers decide to wise up and do the right thing?
May 20th, 2009 at 8:32 am
The following link to Peter Sankoff’s website is useful. He talks about animal cruelty. I have attached a relevant section from his article on animal cruelty.
http://www.lawstaff.auckland.ac.nz:16080/~sankoff/Site/Animals.html
You can’t just harm animals. The AWA [Animal Welfare Act] prohibits cruelty!
Once again, this is technically true. The AWA prohibits cruelty against animals in big black letters. But what actually is “cruelty”? With animal welfare, the devil is often in the details, as the truth is that cruelty is not determined on the basis of some abstract conception of the amount of harm caused to the animals – not by a long shot. We sanction and cause a great deal of harm and excruciating pain to animals all the time, keeping them in cages, slicing them up, shooting them, experimenting on them, etc. But that’s not cruelty, at least not in the legal sense. As defined by the AWA, cruelty is not deliberate harm, but harm that is “unnecessary or unreasonable”. And what is “unnecessary or unreasonable”? To make a long story short, conduct will only fall into this category where the animal’s need to be free from harm outweighs the human need to impose the harm. Hmmm…. think that’s going to happen very often? Well if I walk down the street and decide, hey, I’m going to kick this dog in the head, that will probably be seen as cruelty. There was no purpose to my action, and it wasn’t in any way necessary except to satisfy my sadistic demands. We’ll prosecute people who do things like that (well, sometimes… see below), as we can all agree that it constitutes cruelty. But we don’t seem to agree on much else, and what tends to be regarded as “unreasonable” or “unnecessary” tends to be a category of conduct that gets smaller every day. For example, according to the AWA, keeping pigs in tiny crates for their entire sad lives and pumping up boiler chickens with antibiotics and growth hormone until they topple over (their legs can’t stand the weight) is fine and dandy! Why? These activities are deemed to be “necessary”, given our “need” for cheap sources of animal protein. The truth is, so long as we continue to balance animal needs against human needs, and simultaneously have free recourse to define what constitutes cruelty, any guess who is going to come out the winner?
May 20th, 2009 at 8:58 am
This link is useful too. Maybe DPF will resist the urge to shoot the messenger in future and instead will focus on the real issue.
http://www.lawstaff.auckland.ac.nz:16080/~sankoff/Site/Blog/Entries/2009/5/18_Hubris_or_Hypocrisy.html
May 20th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Some quotes to keep in mind:
“The question is not, “Can they reason?” nor, “Can they talk?” but rather, “Can they suffer?”-Jeremy Bentham.
“But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy.-Plutarch.
“To my mind the life of a lamb is no less precious than that of a human being. I should be unwilling to take the life of a lamb for the sake of the human body. I hold that, the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to the protection by man from the cruelty of man.”-Mahatma Gandhi.
“The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different.”-Hippocrates.
“People often say that humans have always eaten animals as if this is a justification for continuing the practice. According to this logic, we should not try to prevent people from murdering other people, since this has also been done since the earliest of times.”-Isaac Bashevis Singer.
“Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages.”-Thomas Edison.