Maori and Tertiary Education

June 17th, 2009 at 7:24 pm by David Farrar

NZPA reports:

Party co-leader wants universities to consider open entry for Maori students.

He said in a speech last night Maori students had the lowest rate of progression from school to of any ethnic group.

His actual speech is here. He also notes, correctly, that:

Maori participation in tertiary education is higher than for any other ethnic group – and that is something to celebrate.

maoritertiary

This graph (from here) shows very clearly that since 1999 the tertiary participation rate has been higehr for Maori than non-Maori. In fact the rate if 50% higher for Maori than European.

Now Dr Sharples also said:

But – and it’s a big qualifier – much of this participation is at levels one to three on the National Qualifications Framework. All of us know the benefits of a bachelor level qualification – the second challenge, therefore, must be how to boost participation for Maori to higher levels of study.

maoritertiary2

Now Dr Sharples is right that Maori participation is very high at Levels 1 – 3. But as we can see Maori have a higher participation rate than non Maori at Levels 4 to 7 Certificates and Diplomas also. And even at Bachelors level the Maori rate is around 75% to 80% of the European rate.

Personally I think too many people are going to university rather than other forms of tertiary education. I would not hold up a Bachelors degree as the holy grail for tertary education.

Dr Sharples also said:

Thirdly, I want to suggest a quantum leap could be achieved, if Victoria were to consider the following:

- Open entry for Maori students. We have seen how the dice are loaded against Maori, right through the school system. That is not any reflection on the academic potential of our young people. Reserved places for Maori have proven the ability of Maori students to rise to the challenge if they are given the opportunity.

This makes me wonder what the completion rate is. And yes that has a graph also.

tertarymaori3

And as we can see here the completion rate for Maori is above average for Certificate and Diplomas but a lot lower for Bachelors. This to me suggests that open entry for Maori students would not by itself improve outcomes – it would probably just lower the completion rate even more. The key to improving the university participation rate for Maori, would in my opinion improve educational outcomes at secondary school.

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99 Responses to “Maori and Tertiary Education”

  1. getstaffed (8,040 comments) says:

    Maori Party co-leader Pita Sharples wants universities to consider open entry for Maori students

    So what’s next – mail merge Ph.D’s for all Maori? Give all Maori preference for job placement? Grrr… this makes me sick.

    When will Maori leadership stop holding their people back by telling them they’re not good enough?

    When will Maori leadership abandon seperatism, elieteism and racism?

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  2. Graeme Edgeler (2,972 comments) says:

    a quantum leap could be achieved, if Victoria were to consider the following:

    – Open entry for Maori students…

    Almost all of Victoria University’s bachelor degrees are open entry now. I suppose writing “when we said everyone we meant everyone including Māori” in the admission statute might make some difference…

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  3. Michaels (1,233 comments) says:

    I want free entry for all New Zealanders, Americans, Chinese and Australians as well thank you.
    AND… Can we get it all for free please.

    BlOODY HUMBUG!!!

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  4. Michaels (1,233 comments) says:

    Never mind worrying if one might just be stupid, hell one gets the student allowance, saves having to cue up for the dole!!

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  5. bennettleton (2 comments) says:

    It’s a bit of shame he has rehashed this sort of position as I was getting the feeling society generally was starting to turn a page. In any event it would be very doubtful how effective such a policy would be (remember anyone aged 20 or over can enter without pre-qualification as it stands)

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  6. metcalph (1,367 comments) says:

    I think the problem for Maori is to get them to do useful degrees like science or engineering rather than just another fucking arts degree arts.

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  7. paradigm (452 comments) says:

    If a student can’t pass NCEA level 1, what chance do they have passing university stage 1, let alone stage 3 or graduate level?

    Unqualified students are a nuisance in university. They force lecturers to dilute their courses to cater for their ignorance. The result is a lower standard of education for all concerned. Furthermore, they end up becoming indebted through student loans while picking up very little on their way toward a C- degree.

    It is true that education can raise productivity and standards of living, but here the operative word is education, not simply admitting students and handing out degrees. The sooner politicians realise that it is the knowledge transfer that is important, not the bits of goat skin with the fancy typesetting, the better.

    Now Dr Sharples is right that Maori participation is very high at Levels 1 – 3. But as we can see Maori have a higher participation rate than non Maori at Levels 4 to 7 Certificates and Diplomas also.

    I would be careful about commending Maori participation in “certificate courses”. In my experience many of these are simply remedial courses designed to bring them up to a university entrence standard.

    The long term solution for Maori education is to improve attendance and participation at secondary and primary levels. That way the Maori get the needed qualifications and knowledge to move on to Teritary education AND ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO BENEFIT FROM IT.

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  8. thehawkreturns (124 comments) says:

    Already, when we come across a Maori medical doctor we wonder if he got into med. school with
    lower marks than would be required for any other New Zealander. We wonder if he is as good as another
    doctor or maybe he is second rate.

    Do we now want to look at every Maori graduate and wonder. Just wonder, whether they really deserve their degree?

    Positve discrimination positively undermines the quality and hard work of those Maori who deserve entry to degree programmes based on their merit, not skin colour or 1/32 Maori ancestry.

    When will Maori speak up?

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  9. Steve (4,536 comments) says:

    Why don’t we just have Maori only Universities?
    Free entry, free degree, free jobs teaching at the Maori University.
    And Maori can fund it all from their own taxes on Maori only.
    Get a backbone, not a wishbone.

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  10. mickysavage (778 comments) says:

    Wow

    Did you all notice how much participation in tertiary education increased dramatically during the term of Helen Clark and the 5th Labour Government. Boy do I miss her …

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  11. Rebel Heart (249 comments) says:

    Seriously David, if Pita Sharples said something like this as a coalition partner in a Labour-led government would you be as lenient in your comments.

    [DPF: I have made clear I disagree with his proposal. You seem to want me to call him names also? ]

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  12. Hurf Durf (2,860 comments) says:

    Thehawkreturns:

    Exactly. And, looking at the graph, we all have Liarbore to thank for it. Sad for any meritocracy to have to resort to any kind of discrimination for cynical political reasons.

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  13. noskire (835 comments) says:

    What qualifies as tertiary study?

    Well this crap for a start: Wānanga, Māori centres of tertiary learning, established as so-called tertiary education providers over the last ten years. Offering “advanced study” and research programmes where ahuatanga Māori (Māori tradition) and tikanga Māori (Māori custom) are an integral part of the programme. WTF?

    How not to sink a waka?

    Learn how to weave a basket out of flax, whilst we indoctrinate you with all the the reasons why the white man has stolen eveything from you.

    “Welcome” anyone you can by jumping around in a skirt, poking your tongue out and grunting a lot.

    FFS.

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  14. mickysavage (778 comments) says:

    noskire

    Provide me with a breakdown of the figures and we can then have a proper debate about it. Tell me about where these courses are held and how many attend them.

    Until then complain to your minister of education and while you are at it ask her what a Chancellor does.

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  15. noskire (835 comments) says:

    OK, while I do that you can research the redistribution of fishing quota during the 1990’s. Then we can have a debate.

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  16. mickysavage (778 comments) says:

    noskire

    And you can tell me about the Treaty of Waitangi and why we should completely ignore it. Then we can have a real debate.

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  17. Jack5 (5,278 comments) says:

    Maurieo, a surveyor, makes a valuable suggestion at 8.15.

    Communal ownership of land makes it difficult to use the land as security for borrowing, a necessity for capitalism and economic growth. There has been work done on how important for economic development land title systems are. Most Maori seem to prefer communal stagnation to the benefits of individual title. The tragedy is that, Maori would probably end up owning more land once they realised the power of their land bank than they ever will by hoarding it as below-potential communal land.

    Sharple’s call for special free entry to universities for Maori looks to me to be more of a racial-separational approach for the country. It resembles apartheid South Africa, with a small racial group privileged over citizens of other races.

    One aspect of Maori at universities that should be looked at is the courses they favour. Are too many choosing kapahaka courses like those at Canterbury or the social “science” options of political science and sociology or new age stuff like feminist studies? Engineering, science, law, maths, commerce, and international languages like Mandarin and Spanish, are more likely to provide upward mobility, which is what Sharples and co. seem to want.

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  18. Ruth (164 comments) says:

    I think *anyone* should be able to gain education at tertiary institutions, regardless of school qualifications.

    But there has to be a standard for *passing* at tertiary level that is the same for everyone.

    Afterall many young people fail at school – the system just doesn’t suit them – and go on to do well in other training establishments.

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  19. Komata (1,220 comments) says:

    So once again, Dr Sharples is stating in no uncertain terms that his people are simply too IGNORANT to be able to get into Uni’ under their own steam and by their own merit.

    Isn’t this just more than a little insulting to Maori per se’ – telling them in no uncertain terms that they (Maori) are simply not bright enough to be able to foot it with the rest of society?

    And if it ISN’T true then why aren’t his cohorts and off-siders, the Komatuas, the Maori King and all the rest rounding on him and publicly distancing themselves from such insulting statements?

    The fact that they aren’t speaks volumes – and would seem to indicate that they too concur with the learned member’s comments – and equally have no problems with insulting their own.

    A funny thing about all this – the MSM haven’t asked him the obvious question – why does he keep on telling his people about this?

    A secret agenda anyone?

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  20. Kingi (142 comments) says:

    I really laughed hard at this comment:

    “Already, when we come across a Maori medical doctor we wonder if he got into med. school with
    lower marks than would be required for any other New Zealander. We wonder if he is as good as another
    doctor or maybe he is second rate.”

    I’m sorry Hawk but you seem to misunderstand how Targeted Admission works. Someone can’t simply skate ALL THE way through. You still have to meet requirements to ensure you maintain the required grades. There is no free lunch, despite the right wing generalisations.

    Positive discrimination is what we are talking about essentially. An unequal benefit to create an equal outcome. Or rather a more equitable one. Personally I wouldn’t support open entry for Maori. I think the targeted admission model is perfectly adequate.

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  21. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,703 comments) says:

    Fifty years ago there were separate curricula at Maori primary schools. My mother taught in one and I was educated there – after she gave up teaching. These were successful as they equipped Maori children to handle the Pakeha secondary school system. In those days, the entry rates of Maori children from THOSE primary schools into universities and the professions was remarkable.Then the do gooders came along and fucked it up by insisting that there should be one curriculm for all.

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  22. Hump (25 comments) says:

    What is this bullshit term “positive discrimination”.
    The Bumiputras in Malaysia have a similar system and it is an unmitigated disaster.
    You don’t do anyone any favours by lowering the bar. All you get is dumber graduates.

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  23. noskire (835 comments) says:

    Tell you about the treaty?

    “The Maori, like most of the primitive races, possesses an ardent love for his fatherland, and, startled at the gradual increase of the white population, he conceived the idea of preventing any more territory from passing under British rule : and from feelings of jealousy at the success of the Anglo-Saxon in the tillage of the land, the tribes combined to check our progress. Had they been better instructed in the facts of history, they would have understood how impossible it was to to stay the progress of civilisation ; and that the only way left to savage nations of escaping the doom of extinction and living in enjoyment, is by floating with the current instead of battling against it.”

    Introduction from my copy of The Defenders of New Zealand by T Gudgeon, 1887.

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  24. kiwireader (45 comments) says:

    Does anyone know how Dr Sharples got his PhD?

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  25. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @thehawkreturns

    You say that when you see a Maori medical doctor you wonder if they are up to standard?

    Do you not realise that becoming a doctor requires more than simply gaining university entrance?

    It actually takes many years of intense study and vigorous examination. Your comment is dismissive of both maori and doctors.

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  26. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    “Positive discrimination is what we are talking about essentially. An unequal benefit to create an equal outcome.”

    AKA another hand out

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  27. Kingi (142 comments) says:

    No Patrick. Just because it doesn’t mean YOU get something, doesn’t mean it is without merit.

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  28. mickysavage (778 comments) says:

    noskire

    Thinking has developed since 1887 …

    We are much more tolerant now and much less respecting of the use of force. And we think that diversity is a good thing. Your quote is not a good one …

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  29. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @kiwireader

    Look it up on wikipedia. Sharples is a Te Aute old boy and was a professor of education at Auckland University. His MA had first class honours and his PhD was in Anthropology & Linguistics.

    What are you trying to suggest?

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  30. Sandman (3 comments) says:

    Seems a little odd to me, as we have open entry to university for all those aged 20 or above. Unless he’s suggesting lowering that age to 17 or something, I don’t quite see the problem. I wonder how many Maori students under the age of 20 are disqualified through lack of qualifications.

    That said, under the government’s new funding arrangements, it’s possible VUW has to cap their first year cohort using some other mechanism, and Maori are disproportionately disadvantaged.

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  31. noskire (835 comments) says:

    Savage, was I making a point about people trying to live in the past? Or possibly Gudgeon called it right in the first instance?

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  32. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    “doesn’t mean it is without merit.” – yeah, perhaps it should be known as a ‘koha degree”

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  33. mickysavage (778 comments) says:

    noskire

    “Had they been better instructed in the facts of history, they would have understood how impossible it was to to stay the progress of civilisation ; and that the only way left to savage nations of escaping the doom of extinction and living in enjoyment, is by floating with the current instead of battling against it.”

    So Maori ought to have realised that the Treaty was not worth the paper that it was written on and just been pleased that they were part of the pakeha world?

    What happened to the rule of law? I thought wingnuts believed in this? Does this not mean that the State should abide by contracts it has entered into?

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  34. noskire (835 comments) says:

    “# mickysavage (404) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 3 Says:
    June 17th, 2009 at 8:41 pm

    noskire

    Provide me with a breakdown of the figures and we can then have a proper debate about it. Tell me about where these courses are held and how many attend them.”

    According to NZQA 182 registered providers identify themselves as Māori providers, and on Wednesday 24 June 2009, Ngā Kaitūhono in association with the NZQA Board, will host a hui for representatives from Ngā Wānanga, Universities, Institutes of Technology and Polytechnics, Māori Private Training Establishments, Kura Kaupapa Māori, Te Kohanga Reo, Industry Training Organisations, and Government Sector Agencies at Waiwhetu Marae, 4 Puketapu Grove, Waiwhetu, Lower Hutt.

    Maybe you can find out for yourself then.

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  35. Gulag Archipelago (146 comments) says:

    Open access= NZ is stuffed.

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  36. paradigm (452 comments) says:

    Kingi, I have some problems with the term “positive discrimination”. Things positive to one group are (assuming a zero sum game) negative to the majority of other groups. In this case, people who attained better high school qualifications are discriminated against for entry into limited number courses so Maori can be discriminated toward. Those same people are once again discriminated against in that more poorly qualified students force the lecturer to teach at a slower pace, and even cover things below the level of the course.

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  37. burt (7,425 comments) says:

    Oh boy, what can I say that hasn’t been said. Equal rights unless they are black use to be an ugly saying when it was describing less rights based on brown skin but hey get this Sharples – It’s equally ugly when it’s describing more rights based on brown skin. Don’t be a racist brown boy.

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  38. noskire (835 comments) says:

    “# mickysavage (405) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    June 17th, 2009 at 9:54 pm

    noskire

    “Had they been better instructed in the facts of history, they would have understood how impossible it was to to stay the progress of civilisation ; and that the only way left to savage nations of escaping the doom of extinction and living in enjoyment, is by floating with the current instead of battling against it.”

    So Maori ought to have realised that the Treaty was not worth the paper that it was written on and just been pleased that they were part of the pakeha world?

    What happened to the rule of law? I thought wingnuts believed in this? Does this not mean that the State should abide by contracts it has entered into?”

    They were lucky to even get a treaty. The plan was to eradicate them, but there was a shortage of available manpower.

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  39. nuinui (8 comments) says:

    Why should entry be on anything other than achievement or over 20 years old. Why can’t they do it like I am doing it when you are older and older than 20. If policies like this are put in place Maori will continue to under achieve as they know they do not have to try to get any where in life, like they rest of us.

    I stuffed around at college passed six form and then left college (Should have gone to university straight away). I am working, studying and have 3 children. But I am still doing it, why can they not too.

    The thing that most people are missing is the drive and determination to succeed in life and the work ethic that it takes hard work to get there and it is not handed to them on a silver platter.

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  40. mickysavage (778 comments) says:

    Noskire

    “They were lucky to even get a treaty. The plan was to eradicate them, but there was a shortage of available manpower.”

    This is an unusually expressed sentiment.

    If I think of who would say such a thing I can think of Hitler, Mussolini, Hussein and the local chapter of white power.

    So even though the Crown entered into a treaty with them it is not obliged to abide by the treaty that it entered with them?

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  41. Kingi (142 comments) says:

    What’s funny though is that in all Universities except Auckland Uni, its open entry anyway.

    Paradigm, you miss the point. We need to ensure equity, so we provide an unequal benefit to maori, in order to create a more equal and equitable outcome. Its simple. You may not like it, but its what is necessary to ensure that we all have the opportunity to succeed.

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  42. burt (7,425 comments) says:

    mickysavage

    You don’t need to read a lot of the history of colonisation to see a pattern. You would need to be pretty stupid to believe that the British would not rather have just conquered NZ like they did (or tried) all places they wanted. Anyone would say that if they wanted to be discussing history – politics is another matter and there you are accurate to mention the white power as an equal but opposite extreme view to Sharples.

    Equal rights for all NZ citisens unless they are Maori – Is that what you want?

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  43. burt (7,425 comments) says:

    Kingi

    Bollox. It’s blatant racism. You can say it is required but that’s a cop out. A culture that values education is what is required. Family values that encourage their kids to work hard at their school work and to work for good results.

    I know this takes years, and in that regard lowering the entry criteria at Uni has some merit as it creates role models. But if you want role models, real role models, then get the kids doing well in primary, secondary and let them stand proud in their tertiary attendance rather than make them wear a cloak of ‘racist entitlement’.

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  44. reid (16,699 comments) says:

    Demographically, a child’s success in education almost always depends on only one thing: parental attitude toward it.

    Change that amongst all groups in a society, and you don’t need anything else. Success is automatically assured.

    Talking about barriers to entry etc merely obfuscates this factor which is the only real driver.

    So, if I were Peter, I’d be thinking about how I could use the resources he has as part of govt, to drive home the message to every single Maori family, that while the old Maori proverb “He aha te mea nui? He tangata. He tangata. He tangata.” is still the most important, equally important is the new Maori proverb “He aha te mea nui? He kuranga. He kuranga. He kuranga.”

    “What matters most? It is education. It is education. It is education.”

    You cannot make a horse drink unless they want to, even if you lead it to all the water in the world. You have to deal with that, if you want to make progress on this issue. And that’s the only thing you have to deal with. Everything else once you’ve done that, takes care of itself.

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  45. burt (7,425 comments) says:

    reid

    looking at the time you posted we are on collective conciseness again. How do we do it?

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  46. mickysavage (778 comments) says:

    Burt

    “You would need to be pretty stupid to believe that the British would not rather have just conquered NZ like they did (or tried) all places they wanted. Anyone would say that if they wanted to be discussing history – politics is another matter and there you are accurate to mention the white power as an equal but opposite extreme view to Sharples.”

    The British either could not or chose not to do this. So why should they not abide by a contract they entered into? Does politics allow for contracts to be broken?

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  47. Father Ted (85 comments) says:

    Will they have a degree in gang patches at the local Uni now?

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  48. mickysavage (778 comments) says:

    Father Ted

    “Will they have a degree in gang patches at the local Uni now?”

    Probably. The funding has been cut and this is probably all that they can afford. Blame Key.

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  49. Father Ted (85 comments) says:

    mickybro – how about a tagged course for stoned up P freaks on the dole?

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  50. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @Father Ted

    Now you are just being blatantly offensive. Do you have anything worthy to add to the discussion?

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  51. reid (16,699 comments) says:

    “looking at the time you posted we are on collective conciseness again. How do we do it?”

    Perhaps it’s not up to us, burt. Isn’t it spooky.

    Uhhh, by increasing the number of Maori committed to education now through incentives and targeted assistance programs, so that as parents they will have the experience of education and its effects on their livelihoods so that they would want their children to have that same sort of experience?

    Yes that works somewhat, apriori, but, to use an a posteriori argument, when talking about motivating people to do something, it usually involves getting to the core of their experience, which in the case under discussion, is parental attitude. We have multiple wasted generations right now who want to do the right thing, even if they don’t know it. I’m talking about the parents. They’re not evil people, they’re merely ignorant.

    So how the hell do you turn around in a short time, those families that have never even had one graduate from high school?

    Appeal to their emotions, that’s how. You do that by using their culture to speak their language and showing them examples of success and making them heroes.

    It’s not rocket science.

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  52. mickysavage (778 comments) says:

    Father Ted

    “mickybro – how about a tagged course for stoned up P freaks on the dole?”

    That is called the dole. Helen and Labour tried to reduce the que as much as possible. Key and the current lot are totally indifferent to it and their decisions are increasing it every day. You should blame them!

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  53. burt (7,425 comments) says:

    mickysavage

    “So why should they not abide by a contract they entered into?”

    Absolutely agree. Haven’t seen ‘affirmative action’ ( apartheid ) on that contract – have you?

    Make tertiary education a right for anyone and swell the system to cater for that if you want to. I would say it’s folly and would erode the value of our degrees. However if we made the ‘big ones’ post graduate degrees with entry based on academic merit then I might buy that cost. I can accept that everyone has a right to education – I don’t accept some people have the right and some people need to earn it.

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  54. reid (16,699 comments) says:

    “That is called the dole. Helen and Labour tried to reduce the que as much as possible.”

    In between their profligacy to their own interest groups in order to get themselves re-elected, mickey. Imagine if they were operating under the normal conditions prevailing throughout the entire 90’s. They wouldn’t have moved the queue at all, except backwards.

    Don’t think we didn’t notice what you guys did.

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  55. paradigm (452 comments) says:

    Kingi that is an entirely flawed arguement. The use of the term “equity” is subjective, and has no place in a discussion such as this. I would emplore you to try to construct a sentence without using it, or any synonym such as “fairness”, at least not without discussing why it is fair and equitable.

    Moreover you seem to persist in dividing people into two groups (Maori and “non-maori”) and complain of an “inequity” between the two. I can just as easily divide people in to groups of one, and point out the enormous unfairness in that one person who studies hard at highschool might struggle for admission, while another gets no highschool qualifications yet gets a free ride on account of his skin colour.

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  56. mickysavage (778 comments) says:

    burt

    “Absolutely agree. Haven’t seen ‘affirmative action’ ( apartheid ) on that contract – have you? ”

    No it is not there but the bit about not alienating or confiscating most of New Zeland is. Affirmative action is a very modest offer of compensation for what has actually happened.

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  57. transmogrifier (523 comments) says:

    I’m not too fussed about the idea of open access in general – universities should be able to decide themselves who they want to let in. However, it is the general idea here that is odious – the idea that Maori simply can’t cut it at primary and secondary school. It’s this kind of attitude that justs adds another little weight squashing the life out of the expectations and ambitions of Maori. Most of this weight comes from parents and social environment, of course, but it is entirely unproductive. And it’s only going to add to the difficulty in motivating those students at high school, knowing as they do that few people expect them to do well, and even if they don’t, they could still get into uni anyway should some miracle happen and they decide its worth their while.

    As a teacher, it’s depressing at how deeply our country has embraced the victimization culture.

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  58. burt (7,425 comments) says:

    DPF

    IMHO National should address our assessment systems. Why oh why do we need to have a NZ home grown assessment system? Recent studies that show NCEA favours girls (as many VRWC members predicted it would) seems to provide a mandate for overhaul or replacement. Scrap it, consign it to the dustbin of socialist jibber jabber intervention and get a real assessment system.

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  59. reid (16,699 comments) says:

    Affirmative action is a very modest offer of compensation for what has actually happened.

    Micky, this is the thing.

    This is NOT about redress for the past. It’s not that the past should not be re-dressed – it already is being done but as a separate process.

    Education is about getting the best out of people and that is about treating all people as equals and making it competitive and letting the dust settle where it will. It’s not dog-eat-dog it’s cream rising to the top. This is about taking the Auckland Grammar model and applying it to the whole country.

    If you feel emotionally outraged or even mildly unsettled about that, then it’s cause you’re not paying enough attention to my part about treating all people as equals. I hope you don’t work in education.

    Because newsflash: people are different, and sometimes they don’t win. But if they’re not challenged (by their schools) and encouraged and taught discipline (by their parents), they’ll never win, never ever.

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  60. Kingi (142 comments) says:

    I think you are all making an issue of a non-issue. As I already said, apart from Auckland Uni, we already have open entry!

    And as I also said, Targeted Admission schemes are adequately ensuring equity.

    And paradigm, despite your claims that equity is “relative” (hahaha that’s pretty funny) it doesn’t change the simple facts. We need to ensure that more Maori complete tertiary education. At the moment its abysmally low comparatively. This whole issue of open entry is a non issue. It already happens, and whilst Dr. Sharples intentions are the best, he is trying to solve the issue of Maori underachievement at high school in the wrong manner.

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  61. burt (7,425 comments) says:

    mickysavage

    I haven’t seen many Asian All Blacks. If there has been any I missed it and against their percentage of the population this is appalling. – can we have a quota perhaps for Asian people in the All Blacks?

    I also want a ‘skinny white uncoordinated guy’ quota for the 100m sprint at the Olympics and for NBA Basketball teams – how well do you think I will do with that?

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  62. Kingi (142 comments) says:

    Burt. Trying to use sarcasm, whilst in fact contradicting your own earlier posts about “blatant racism” probably isn’t the best case to put forward.

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  63. noskire (835 comments) says:

    Kingi,

    Why do “We” need to ensure that more Maori complete tertiary education, as opposed to any other segment of the population?

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  64. Kingi (142 comments) says:

    Because as a society we help those who are the weakest and most vulnerable. We believe in helping others. Maori are less likely to complete tertiary studies compared to every other group. That’s why. If you don’t think we as a society have a moral obligation to help those who are vulnerable maybe some other country like Iran, or Sierra Leone is more appropriate for you, the good old “Strongest will survive” mentality seems rather prevalent there.

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  65. noskire (835 comments) says:

    Who says Maori are weak and vulnerable?

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  66. reid (16,699 comments) says:

    Maori, however, are displaced in their own land. I’m not one to say that any racial group is perpetually disadvantaged and that hand-outs and welfare dependency is the solution – it’s not. But there is, as you pointed out, a generational gap of Maori who were deprived of their culture, language, and prosperity, and these are the parents of the children who are now in education. If we want to be proactive, the solution (almost sounding like product placement there!) comes from both sides. Increasing prosperity in the parental generation by offering access to adult education to be skilled for meaningful employment, plus incentivizing education for young people, would be the pragmatic solution.

    Has anyone thought to give extra financial assistance to parents who keep their kids in school after the age of 16-25?

    apriori, yes Maori are displaced in their own land, and IMO their solution lies in dealing with that in the best way they can, using the legal and political processes, but most of all, in mentally putting that in the past while legally instigating those processes and letting them run their course. It’s those that don’t put this in the past but instead constantly dwell upon “what might have been if only,” that seem never to get ahead. Maori I might add are not unique in that sentiment. You obviously don’t have that issue yourself.

    I like your idea about assistance to parents to keep their kids in school. How much of this in your judgment is a money issue and how much is down to attitude?

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  67. paradigm (452 comments) says:

    Kingi, I said “subjective” rather than “relative”. Can you provide an objective reason for choosing to make a system equitable in regards to ethnic division rather than equitable with regards to individuals.

    Ultimately, the only way to ensure an increase in Maori gaining tertiary education is to increase Maori success in primary and secondary education. Doing so will provide a better stock of students able to handle tertiary level courses, and more tertiary entrances and awards will naturally follow from there. Putting Maori into tertiary education without gaining an adequate secondary education only contributes to the lack to degree completion for Maori. Offer remedial courses to bring struggling students up to the mark in the meanwhile, but do not lower the entrence requirements on the basis of race.

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  68. itsallapriori (1 comment) says:

    Seeing as we like graphs – http://www2.careers.govt.nz/uploads/pics/income-graph_01.jpg

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  69. racer1 (352 comments) says:

    “burt
    Recent studies that show NCEA favours girls”

    Not as much as the old system did.

    And you guys hate fest on any kind of positive discrimination programs is kind of funny.

    “Sorry about stealing your land, destroying your culture and marginalizing your people for the last 200 years, how about we stop doing that, and we call it even? “

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  70. Pascal (1,187 comments) says:

    Two points:

    1. The majority of people who go to university go for the wrong reasons. It’s not to get a degree. It is to gain knowledge.

    2. I am sick of race based politics. This is New Zealand. We are all New Zealanders. We should all be treated equally, and assistance should be given where needed IF it is needed. Race based politics must stop.

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  71. Brian Smaller (3,966 comments) says:

    Wasn’t this tried at Vic law school back in the 90s and it was a total failure?

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  72. starboard (2,563 comments) says:

    Peter who ???….Fucken racist dinosaur…get with it man…its 2009…

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  73. Murray (8,803 comments) says:

    Just shut up and give us the free ride whitey!

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  74. Flashman (179 comments) says:

    What I’ve seen in tertiary education is that the hard-core, born-again Maori tend to be attracted to the “Maori Studies” side of the quadrangle – they seem to have a lot of ernest fun and then presumably after graduating they find work in government departments: or not at all.

    Those rare individuals who clearly identify themselves as Maori who elect to enter more mainstream programmes of study [commerce, sciences] tend to really struggle and often fail to complete – either through self-elimination [most commonly] or academic failure. On the other hand, those who are Maori but who do not ostentatiously “identify” themselves as such tend to do very, very well indeed in degree studies in the “employment ready” fields of commerce, science etc.. One theory I have is that these latter high-achievers are not saddled with the appallingly corrosive “Who do you fink you are bro? You fink you better us?” disparagement from their loser social peers.

    In the wider context, the buzz is that the tertiary education mandarins in Wellington are hot to trot on tieing institutional funding to “completion rates”. In other words, to get paid, simply enrolling a student is not enough – it is necessary for that student to pass the course/graduate. Couple this policy with that of open enrolment and the implications for academic standards and quality become very “interesting” indeed.

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  75. Owen McShane (1,182 comments) says:

    What is a Maori.
    At present the legal position is that anyone who feels Maori IS a Maori.
    So if this became law anyone could declare themselves Maori and gain open entry to University and have access to Student Loans etc.

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  76. dime (10,213 comments) says:

    amazes me Maori are so keen for their kids to be told they are not as smart as everyone else.

    the victim mentality never works!

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  77. burt (7,425 comments) says:

    racer1

    “Sorry about stealing your land, destroying your culture and marginalizing your people for the last 200 years, how about we stop doing that, and we call it even? “

    If you think that comment reflects my views then you are very very wrong. I have commented before that we should settle grievances as quick as possible. I have no issue with returning land and other assets plus paying compensation. Compensation is however measurable (and final) which is probably why people who like to re-write history don’t like it.

    If you think the answer to the pendulum swinging against Maori is to artificially pull it back to the other side then look out when it starts to swing again. I would rather we moved it to the middle by addressing the causes of the imbalance. This might take more time and some commitment from Maori.

    Think about offering free access to tertiary education as being similar to making custodial sentences shorter for Maori – it offers no incentive to change root behaviour rather it merely compensates for status quo. Status quo is broken – why perpetuate it?

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  78. David in Chch (523 comments) says:

    Flashman … the ones I have seen who clearly identified themselves as Maori actually did well, and this is the “hard” sciences. Their whanau had expectations! And so those students got MSc’s and PhD’s and went on to great successes.

    What I notice is that open access for all is fine, BUT as DPF suggested, too many young people go to uni when they should go someplace else and do something else. I see year in year out so many students who should NOT be at uni.

    What’s interesting is that there is open access – after a certain age (I forget the number right now), anyone can enter as a mature student, with no NCEA or school cert requirements. I have always enjoyed having mature students in my classes. They are motivated, they have “been there done that” and now know better than any school leaver what they want and where they want to head. Maori, PI, pakeha, whatever … the mature students are motivated. And even if they failed high school maths, they work hard to overcome their lack and more often than not succeed. AND they are often the class leaders.

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  79. Robert Black (423 comments) says:

    Like hello, how are compulsory Maori seats any different?

    Little Whetu at school:

    “You want to go to university little Whetu?”

    “Nah. F..k that.”

    “Oh, why not, it is open for you, think of all the wonderful opportunities waiting for you. You could be a doctor or a lawyer.”

    “Waste 4 years of classes? No way man. I’m gonna be a Maori politician like my uncle and represent our downtrodden race. You white fullas have stolen our harbours and our fushes and whales. He never went to no whitie university. And he has plenty of money to spend each weak at the TAB eh.”

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  80. Sandman (3 comments) says:

    @Flashman and David in Chch

    The root problem with tertiary education quality in this country is the ludicrous notion that everyone has the right to go to university, combined with the equally ridiculous notion that there’s some virtue in there being roughly equivalent quality institutions scattered around the country.

    Funding for universities is entirely tied to volumes of students, with no attempt to distinguish between good quality or bad quality. What the government needs to do is to get over its fear of elitism and set up a way to fund a couple of universities to become really top class (Otago and Auckland probably) and the others can become feeder schools. Get rid of government mandated entry conditions and let the good ones get the good students.

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  81. Christopher (425 comments) says:

    Fuck off Sharples. Seriously, fuck right the fuck off you dozy racist prick.

    I cannot understand why the fucking wet-your-pants sissies in parliament don’t stand up to this underwhelming racist fuckhole and tell him where to go stick his rangatira.

    I’ll tell you what, I’ve known a fair few Maori students in my time, and 90% were absolutely fucking useless. They were shepherded through their degrees, got shitloads of support and tutoring at my fucking expense and then come out with degrees when I wouldn’t fucking trust them to tie their own fucking goddamn shoelaces. FUCK THAT. Ironically, I can name about 5 other Maori and a couple of Pacific Islanders who thought, “Fuck this”, and didn’t take any of the crap that people handed them, and they are actually pretty decent students who are earning their degrees.

    Everyone in this country needs to fuck right the fucking hell off with their bullshit need to blame every other prick but themselves for their own fucking shitty failures.

    If Maori aren’t doing well it’s their own fucking fault.

    Besides, it’s not like getting any old bachelors degree is
    a) difficult
    b) worth anything

    I’d love to see the breakdowns of softcock degrees vs. real degrees.

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  82. David in Chch (523 comments) says:

    As for elitism, Sandman, yes and no. Note please that I said that many young people don’t belong at uni. On the other hand, many mature students, who are highly motivated, do very well. I am fine with open access, so long as they then demonstrate the ability to continue.

    Also, Otago and Auckland? I remember some politician years ago suggesting that, and it was pointed out that they were NOT the best at many subjects (including science and engineering). Canterbury, Vic, Massey … are best at _something_, and to suggest they become “feeder” schools is to show a lack of understanding of what a uni is and what it contributes. (Too little space here to go through that.)

    Finally, I will always prefer a hard-working B student to a lazy A student. The former tend to succeed and do well, the latter take up space.

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  83. David in Chch (523 comments) says:

    Oh and P.S. our level of tertiary participation is not high compared to other OECD countries. So to suggest that too many people are going to uni is wrong. What we need are those who WANT to go and are willing to work for it.

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  84. Sandman (3 comments) says:

    David in Chch

    Feeder sounds pejorative, and I did not intend it to be so. What I would like to see is a university system rather like the California system, with one or two flagship institutions, and pockets of specialization at postgrad level elsewhere. At the same time, the system should be capable of providing a good undergrad education across all campuses.

    I’d also like to see us look towards the Melbourne model, and focus on broadly-based undergraduate education for the first three years, with little specialization. That can come later in a more specialised masters program. Adapting it for New Zealand, I would expect all six mainstream universities to offer roughly comparable undergrad degrees, with a system set up to channel most, but not all, masters and PhD students to the flagship institutions.

    You say “What we need are those who WANT to go and are willing to work for it.” I agree wholeheartedly. It’s not clear to me how we separate those students out, other than by some form of screening exam or record of past success.

    I do think that this country needs to have a think about what it does with its tertiary system, and whether it might not be time for a major rethink. Too many young people don’t belong at university, but there is no layer of generic tertiary education between the universities and the more vocationally-oriented polytechs. If these young people don’t want a trade, and shouldn’t be at university, where do they go? One alternative might be creating a new type of institution that covers the year 12, 13 and first 18 months of university.

    Agreed about the A vs. B students, although I’d like to have hard-working As ;)

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  85. Jack5 (5,278 comments) says:

    Racer at 2.11am posted: “…Sorry about stealing your land, destroying your culture and marginalizing your people for the last 200 years, how about we stop doing that, and we call it even? “

    Another way of looking at it is that colonisation was inevitable. The question was by whom, and I think in this Maori were lucky.

    Look what happened to the indigenous people of South America at the hands of Spanish and Portuguese. Look at what happened more recently and is still happening to the indigenous people of West Irian at the hands of the Indonesians.

    At an evolutionary stage that hand’t reached a written language or even the wheel, Maori would have been all but wiped out by any of these three colonisers.

    On stealing land, note that many Maori were very willing sellers of their land — and of others’ land.

    Maori have endured much in the last two centuries, but they have also gained much from their interaction with the British and the West generally.

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  86. Jack5 (5,278 comments) says:

    Another comparison might be made with the indigenous people of Taiwan, closely related genetically to Maori and perhaps their ancestral people. The Chinese have utterly marginalised the Taiwanese indigenous people.

    If they had colonised NZ and done the same and on the same scale to Maori, all that would be left of Maori now would be the tourist villages at Rotorua.

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  87. kiwireader (45 comments) says:

    @ephemera

    “Look it up on wikipedia. Sharples is a Te Aute old boy and was a professor of education at Auckland University. His MA had first class honours and his PhD was in Anthropology & Linguistics.

    What are you trying to suggest?”

    I’m suggesting he got it by merit, and is proof that Maori can achieve without having a free pass. Its a slap in the face to those Maori who have got to university like everyone else, and he of all people should know that.

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  88. Paul Williams (880 comments) says:

    Christopher’s really embraced the kiwiblog didactic. A poster-boy you’d say. He reminds me of DebSoc advice; when you’ve got a weak point, shout.

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  89. barry (1,191 comments) says:

    I think this could all be solved by using a similar programme as those guys did yesterday in south auckland. Instead of selling visa’s to dopy P.I’s, they should be selling U.E’s to maori who want go to university – in fact they should just sell them degree’s and by pass the cost of actually getting it thru a course.

    Now thats enterprise……………

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  90. reid (16,699 comments) says:

    Yes well only because they’re Maori, they were prevented from getting a University degree barry, so they didn’t think of it.

    Another example of our racist oppression in action.

    D’ya see how insidious it all is?

    Won’t someone think of the children?

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