The public can’t be trusted syndrome

June 30th, 2009 at 9:00 am by David Farrar

I’m appalled at the attitude from the principals’ union that they may not report results from national standard tests, because shock horror they might be made public.

Even worse is advocating a law change, so that the public can be blocked from being able to obtain this information under the Oficial Information Act.

We (the taxpaying public) spend almost $6 billion a year on the school system. They are meant to be accountable to parents and the community/public. And instead they are demanding a law change to hide what their performance might be, backed by Labour.

I don’t care much one way or another about .  Certainly the Government has better things to do than publish such things.

But there is a massive difference between whether or not the Government should publish something, and whether or not it should prevent members of the public from obtaining information on a school and publishing it in any form they like.

It is appalling arrogance to demand that such information be suppressed because you can’t trust the public to interpret it properly. That is the start of the slippery slope to an Orwellian country.

If someone wants to go to the trouble, they should be able to publish “league tables” on schools on as many criteria as they want.

One organisation could do a league table based on drug offences at school. Another could do a league table based on the level of “voluntary” fees. Another could do a league table based on suspensions for misconduct. And another could do a league table based on the average number of years experience of teachers. And shock horror someone might do a league table based on exam results. And hey someone else might do one based on exam results, but adjusted to take into account socio-economic factors in their home zone. And yet someone else might do a league table based on sporting success.

The answer is not less information, but more. If you don’t like a league table compiled by an organisation, then criticise it, or do your own one. If you think the media’s reporting of local results is sub-standard then blog about it.

But whatever you do, don’t support Labour’s plan to exempt schools from the Official Information Act to keep the teacher unions happy.

UPDATE: No Right Turn has already blogged on this also, and pleased to say he agrees that what Labour is proposing is wrong.

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51 Responses to “The public can’t be trusted syndrome”

  1. mickysavage (786 comments) says:

    Sorry DPF

    To kick off the debate I will disagree entirely with you.

    Matthew Hooton yesterday talked about the “Stalinist” approach to education that the teachers prefer. The way that he described it and you describe it education is a pure commodity where the market will provide the best result. Like choosing a restaurant people should be allowed to pick the school of their choice.

    There are a few major problems with this philosophy and with the current government’s approach.

    Schools are not the providers of a “service” they are the providers of a public good, the education of all of our children. The basic philosophy is that all children should receive a good quality education no matter where they live or how wealthy their parents are.

    To do this you need a comprehensive network of adequate schools.

    The market models suggests that there will be winner schools and loser schools. Instead on insisting on an adequate standard a market approach means that some schools will be left to wither and die, along with the educational hopes of their pupils.So the principle of league tables I believe is wrong.

    The further problem is that the current policy is a gimmick. Teachers will have used valuable teaching time administering further tests and getting some information about a child and how they rank compared to their peers. And then … nothing will happen. There is no further plan. Resources to address problems and issues are not there. To repeat, the policy is nothing more than a gimmick to impress middle class parents anxious to provide the best for their children.

    There is no way that the information can be withheld under the current law. The solution is not to collect the information in the first place but to use that time to further educate our children.

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  2. MajorBob (9 comments) says:

    This is a disgusting abuse of power, if passed. Anything that tax-payer money is spend on should be open to full disclosure. In todays age where information can be easily collect, stored, and distributed there should be no excuse. These f**kers in the Labour party need to learn they work for us and not their party’s agenda to control every thing that moves, the removal of list seats would be a good starting point in stopping this type of policy crap, and holding them to account for such stupidity.

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  3. Brian Smaller (4,023 comments) says:

    No MickeySavege – I want to know if the college three hundred metres from our place is in the bottom 10 (real number not percentage) of colleges for academic results. After finding that out I got another job and paid for my son to attend one that is at the other end of the scale.

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  4. Camryn (543 comments) says:

    mickysavage – Bringing the question of which education model is superior into this discussion seems spurious to me. Isn’t data on school performance just as important for ensuring that they’re all pulling their weight in the “comprehensive network of adequate schools” in your public service model as it would be as choice-informing data in a competitive market model?

    Leaving aside the question as to where we sit on that education model spectrum – although, surely it’s neither extreme unless vouchers have been introduced when I wasn’t looking – then this information seems to be useful to everyone except for teachers who don’t want to have to face pressure to improve relative performance and meet either market-derived or centrally developed standards.

    In short, opposing the free dissemination of this information indicates that teachers want to be paid to deliver education and yet for the source of funds to have no say over whether they’re doing it well enough, be that source central government or the market (both of which are the people of New Zealand, just via different processes).

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  5. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    I choose the market to provide the best result. Private education for my kids methinks, they can avoid having to interact with future socialists I hope.

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  6. Neil (586 comments) says:

    Maybe we should publish league tables of doctors or hospitals,naming them, who have made bad decisions with patients. Maybe we should have league tables about the performance of company directors. Everyone has been to school with a variety of experiences-let’s hammer the teaching profession.
    I don’t agree with mickysavage very often but I thought his post an excellent one, free of wild language and quite reasoned arguments.
    US programmes like “No Child Left Behind” have become a farce with school districts actively teaching to these tests.
    NZ schools have in the last 15 years been evaluating,recording results until the cows come home. To the situation where schools are neglecting programmes of work. ERO when they visit visibly glow with pages of ticks,crosses and little notes.
    Of course parents need to know their childs progress, but why the heck do we need to know what we already know, that lower decile schools will generally perform poorer than high decile schools.lt frustrates me to see the government determined to put populism into the education programme for the sake of a few votes.

    [DPF: Just you because you don't want the info, doesn't mean you should ban others seeing it. And in case you hadn't noticed pretty much all those other examples you list can be compiled from public information if someone wants to]

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  7. david (2,557 comments) says:

    mickysavage
    No matter how much you try to dress it up with excuses and claims of public good and quality education and accusations of winners vs losers, the simple fact remains that the general public (most of whom funnily enough have been consumers of the education product in the past 40 years) have a suspicion that the education system has been captured by people who are misusing it for political ends rather than for the benefit of the student population or the needs of the country.

    Parents and users of the output of the system (employers and higher educators) have made a lot of noise about their dissatisfaction with the quality of product on offer and it actually boils down to an old saying that “if the pupil hasn’t learned then the teacher hasn’t taught”.

    Now you can blow smoke as much as you like mickey but you cannot hide the fact that there is something not right and there are demands for something to change. If that change means that a start point is to identify areas where action on improvement is indicated then we have a breakthrough opportunity for a long overdue renovation of the system.

    For the unions and the principals to continually try to camouflage their failings by blaming deciles, society, parental ignorance, dread of winners and losers, and fear of misused statistics is not only cowardly but is bordering on criminal for it is the future of (another) generation that is being placed in jeopardy by the idealogy of the left.

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  8. clintheine (1,570 comments) says:

    What is it with Socialists and this so called “public good”? Education is a privilege.

    Put it this way, Labour don’t want you to know what schools are good and which ones are shite. They don’t want you to have a choice, don’t want you to travel to go to better schools (zoning), are opposed to private schools and want all teachers regardless of their ability to be paid the same.

    Well fuck me.

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  9. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Funny thing is, that Teachers, Lecturers, and Professors always seemed to delight in giving Tests, Exams, External Exams,

    Dissertations, Research Papers etc.

    How very strange that they rail at being measured themselves. Big Wobblies actually.

    Never been in the real World?

    School, Uni, School or Uni.

    Not had too much experience of ‘Life’.

    They just love putting time aside to poison young minds, insodoing wasting proper teaching time.

    Insiduous, scheming reprobates, that never could make it outside of Academia.

    I was told that I would come to nothing.

    FFS, what high point of (driving an old Skoda through choice) high ground did that tosser have the right to

    say that to anybody.

    I did make a point of calling in a couple of years ago. Most of the other Teachers at that School were very good.

    He was a bearded, died in the wool, hoary old Socialist. Oh, and a crap teacher actually.

    If you try your best, and take pride in your work, then you don’t mind being measured.

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  10. mickysavage (786 comments) says:

    Camryn

    “Isn’t data on school performance just as important for ensuring that they’re all pulling their weight in the “comprehensive network of adequate schools” in your public service model as it would be as choice-informing data in a competitive market model?”

    No because the data collected does not measure the right thing. And letting the data go into the public arena undermines the public network of competent schools model. And collecting the data actually decreases the quality of education provided rather than increasing it.

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  11. trout (939 comments) says:

    msavage perpetuates the socialist mantra; ‘Make things lousy for everybody’. Bad schools must be exposed so they are forced to up their game to attract pupils. Zoning and suppression of performance data hides incompetence and perpetuates inequalities, and of course removes parental choice which has always been an anathema to teacher unions.

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  12. bruceh (102 comments) says:

    mickeysavage’s response is myopic. A self-serving world view where those inside the system are the arbiters of what the public good is.

    An empowered school choice approach makes the arbiters of the public good the public themselves. The attitude of the principals to publishing outcomes information would turn around almost instantly in order to maintain school rolls in the face of parental choice being available.

    A school that was feeling the pinch (heck if this carries on we might wither and die) would quickly adjust its proposition to the community and would want to make that known by publishing information (called marketing). What was published would be kept honest by the availability of independent ‘league tables’ as per dfp.

    A school which was finding demographics working against it in spite of best efforts to attract a strong roll would examine other options to establish its value to the community including amalgamations, alignment/ co-branding with a high reputation school, become a special needs school, the possibilities are many.

    Nice win-wins all round wouldn’t you say, even dynamic and capable of adjusting to changing communities. Gosh, from a nasty competitive system too. Putting the recipients of the public good in control is just too dreadful, we must defend state controlled public education at all costs eh

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  13. Camryn (543 comments) says:

    mickysavage – I can certainly agree with you that tests are a waste of time if they don’t measure the right thing. I can also agree that they’re a waste of time if they test essentially the right thing but in a way that encourages teach-to-test as opposed to “teach to get information into students’ heads in a way that it sticks in there”. However, that’s a testing issue.

    If the tests are well designed then I think my point stands and your point doesn’t (re: dissemination of information). You haven’t provided any reasoning for why disseminating performance information undermines the public service model. The model (again assuming well designed testing) surely needs for the information to be collected so that chief education bureaucrat can pass instruction down the chain for teachers to improve or face consequences (otherwise the schools will not be adequate if even the bureaucracy has no idea). Why, then, should not the taxpayers that underpin the system not also know? It’s not just a matter of fairness, it also prevents the corruption that so easily brings down public models – without a public check then it’s in the interest of the bureaucracy to either bribe each other or collude to falsely claim uniform and improving overall performance rather than fix issues as it’s easier and more lucrative for all involved. I’m saying that public oversight is essential for your model to even have a chance, rather than corrosive of it.

    I imagine you’re going to mention that schools with lower scores would be abandoned by parents before having a chance to improve. Well, you already have zoning to minimize that and could no doubt come up with other rules that would stop parents from acting on the information in ways you deem adverse to the model… but at least they’d know. Perhaps they could then volunteer more, attempt to isolate any non-school education-impairing factors in their wider community, etc.

    I mean, I totally support the market approach but I can’t understand why you think that information supression is corrosive to your proposed model as opposed to a key factor in ensuring it works. Hoarding information only allows public service models to be inefficient, to the benefit only of the people running the service and not the public.

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  14. Neil (586 comments) says:

    Love to see some of the critics go to teach in difficult areas – South Auckland,Northland,Western Bay of Plenty,Porirua and some industrial suburbs.Consider violence in society and yet we are expected to teach those truculent students. Consider the facts that some parents have failed to provide their children with an adequate base to start learning – now teachers have to be like magicians and pull rabbits out of the hat to produce a literate and numerically able student. Get real !
    Using league tables as a means for the market to eliminate schools is not the way to go. Just imagine how some schools perform so well and yet are reluctant to enrol difficult students. That would spoil their record
    Why is it that top of the NCEA league table is occupied by private schools. Is it because they have top students with few or no poorly performing students. Money helps keep the unclean out !! People have choice in education by paying for it.
    I believe the answer lies well before school, in particular the child rearing practices of families where the power of providing experiences and good role modelling has in a number of cases been lost. Teachers are picking up in many cases damaged property and being asked to put things together again.
    The DPB,immigration from the Pacific and social change of the 60’s is now really impacting on the education system of the 21st century.

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  15. Craig Ranapia (1,915 comments) says:

    mickysavage:

    I think you’re missing the point by a significant margin. This is probably not the place to say Idiot/Savant has a point (and he’s not fan of ‘league tables’, to put it mildly), but just because some principals don’t like how they assume such information is used is no grounds for secrecy. I’m sure there are many Ministers and senior civil servants who agree wholeheartedly with the Mallard Principle, but the last time I looked at the OIA “embarrassment” and “the plebs are fuckwits” are not permissible grounds for denying an OIA request — though there are some who appear to think otherwise.

    Meanwhile, I hope Labour’s education spokesman is having a good hard think about where he’s going. If principals threaten to stop cooperating with ERO quality audits (which can be highly embarrasing to individual schools), will they change the law so they’re no long publicly available? How about the New Zealand Teachers Council — should the body set up to register teachers be beyond all public scrutiny and accountability?

    And one more thought, I wonder how teachers would react if their students decided not to do required coursework because they thought it was lame-arse? I believe they would be shown the nearest exit, and told not to hurry back.

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  16. freedom101 (504 comments) says:

    I had the misfortune this week to visit Heretaunga College in Upper Hutt, after hours. You didn’t even need to see any pupils to know that they wouldn’t be getting much of an education there. The place had rubbish lying all around the grounds, which were unkempt generally. Everything was over-grown, and mud and puddles were everywhere. And the classrooms had inspiring names such as ‘A Wing’, ‘B Wing’ etc. The school has been there for decades. Are there no past-pupils who have excelled and should be celebrated? Within 1km is Rimutaka Prison, which I assume also has A Wing and B Wing.

    This is what happens when you have a zoned local monopoly. Mallard should be made to spend a week there.

    Will National introduce vouchers and school choice? Don’t hold your breath. I am prepared to bet that after five years of a National government nothing will have changed.

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  17. Ross Miller (1,704 comments) says:

    mickeysavage’s post demonstrates par excellance his slavish adherence to the socialist mantra of dumbing down to the lowest possible denominator in order to mask failure.

    Mickey … people fail, schools fail, businesses fail; political parties fail, states fail, the earth is round and the King Canute approach to life is not a receipe for success.

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  18. Brian Smaller (4,023 comments) says:

    Is it because they have top students with few or no poorly performing students. Money helps keep the unclean out !! People have choice in education by paying for it.

    I have had two kids at private scools since they started pre-school. Believe me, there are just as many dummies at private schools. The difference is that the average result is so much higher at private schools. At my daughter’s school for instance, they aim for their median to be at the 75th percentile for all New Zealand schools.

    With the few exceptions of parents who throw money at the school and say educate my kid and leave it at that, most parents, regardless of wealth who have kids at private schools want seriously good outcomes for their kids and are actively engaged in their education. The teachers are not burdened with constant battles trying to control kids who have had no discipline in their lives, whose parents let them stay up all night playign play station and watching TV and who don’t care about their education.

    Here is an example from a friend who started teaching at a private school after twenty years in state schools. She said that she knew her lesson plans down to the last minute. At the private school she ran out of material halfway through the lesson because she had not spent half her time telling johhny to pay attention, waking up sleeping kids and so on. That is why private schools do well – they expect kids to do well and they expect kids to learn and achieve, and push even the dumb ones to success (where they can).

    Kids have a funny way of living up to your expectations. If the parents/school have none, they will not disappoint you.

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  19. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Mickey Savage posted: “…Schools are not the providers of a “service” they are the providers of a public good, the education of all of our children. The basic philosophy is that all children should receive a good quality education ….”

    But Mickey, who decided what a “good quality education” is? Is this decision in hands of the teachers and schools and of them only?

    What about the politically correct attitudes that are inculcated along with arithmetic and reading? Do teachers and schools alone have the right to say what should be taught? I don’t think so. Education is too important for them to be some sort of priesthood with sole rights to direction of the rising generation.

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  20. JustRight (31 comments) says:

    Neil (250) Vote: Add rating 2 Subtract rating 1 Says:
    June 30th, 2009 at 9:41 am

    “Maybe we should have league tables about the performance of company directors.”

    We do, it is called the sharemarket (for those that are publically listed anyway!)

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  21. freedom101 (504 comments) says:

    Brian Smaller – this brings us right back to the collapse of the family, work ethic, etc etc. These are the primary reasons the education system is struggling.

    So let’s fix welfare AND education.

    Where is National’s plan to reduce welfare dependency?????????????

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  22. daveski (87 comments) says:

    There’s is of course a delicious irony here. Those who are entrusted with assessing and ranking others do not wish the same to be applied to them!

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  23. alex Masterley (1,517 comments) says:

    Obviously the public can’t be trusted. They elected the “wrong” government last year!

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  24. JustRight (31 comments) says:

    This whole issue is simply Teachers (represented by their Union) not wanting to be accountable for outcomes.

    Arguments about ‘you can’t measure it’ or ‘it is too subjective’ or ‘ all we will get is Teachers teaching to get good test results’ are simply smoke screens for ‘I don’t want to be accountable’

    I have 2 children at school. There are times when my kids spend more time with their teacher than with me. I want to know that what my children are focused on will ensure they have the skills necessary to prosper in the world. Therefore I want to see some outcomes.

    See this issue for what it is… wanting to be free to inculcate our children with whatever ideas they wish, while having no accountability to the constituent communities.

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  25. James (1,338 comments) says:

    The socialist dunce blurts again…

    “Schools are not the providers of a “service” they are the providers of a public good, the education of all of our children. The basic philosophy is that all children should receive a good quality education no matter where they live or how wealthy their parents are.”

    Education IS a service…its not nor can be a “right”.For someone to recive an education someone else must provide it….if there is a right to recive an education then someone will have to be vitually enslaved to provide it…a massive contradiction that is unsustaible in reality.How can someone claim a right that nessessitates the violation of someone elses rights?

    Only false “rights” like Mickeys achieve this…
    .

    And they are not “all our Children”….mine are mine….yours are not. I don’t want anything but the best outcomes for all children but mine are my major focus and priority,therefore I will put them above all others in terms of getting them the best education I can.

    “The market models suggests that there will be winner schools and loser schools.”

    No it doesn’t….the market (meaning all of us as soverign individuals with the choice of how of how to spend our own money) will reward schools that deliver what we,their customers, want and put out of business those that don’t…and thats a good thing for everyone.

    ” Instead on insisting on an adequate standard a market approach means that some schools will be left to wither and die, along with the educational hopes of their pupils.So the principle of league tables I believe is wrong.”

    Rubbish….bad schools will be taken over by good ones and retooled to run to satisfy customer requirements.Result…no more bad schools and a much higher and more even standard across the board.

    Come on Mickey…post some more socialist shit I can destroy with ease…

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  26. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Mickey Savage is an uneducated dumbfuck. His loony opinions on this issue and most other issues show just why when it comes to education, the left don’t want anything other than to indoctrinate the young.

    There are three definitives that apply here:

    1) There will be no education while the left control education.

    2) The left will control education while it is publicly funded.

    3) Education must not be publicly funded.

    The education system must be private. Otherwise it becomes dysfunctional and we end up with a population of half educated numb brains like Mickey Savage, MNIJ and the legion of equally stupefied socialist morons who plague this site these days.

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  27. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Obviously the public can’t be trusted. They elected the “wrong” government last year!”

    ..and 360,000 of them signed a petition for a referendum too. But that’s easy fixed. Just ignore the referendum. End of story.

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  28. burt (8,269 comments) says:

    So the socialists want to spend other peoples money with no accountability – who would have guessed that!

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  29. Gooner (995 comments) says:

    Mickeysavage said:

    Schools are not the providers of a “service” they are the providers of a public good, the education of all of our children. The basic philosophy is that all children should receive a good quality education no matter where they live or how wealthy their parents are.

    They’re not all our children Mickey. My children are my children, not yours, John Key’s, Helen Clark’s or New Zealand’s. The basic philosophy is pretty as much as you say it and is the prime reason ACT want a voucher system. Gladly, you seem to be in support of that.

    The market models suggests that there will be winner schools and loser schools. Instead on insisting on an adequate standard a market approach means that some schools will be left to wither and die, along with the educational hopes of their pupils.

    Mickey, if league tables allowed shocking schools and teachers to wither and die that’s excellent. Why are you protecting bad teachers and schools?

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  30. macdee (42 comments) says:

    Besides the fear of having the inadequecies of schools, principals and teachers exposed the fear amongst the teaching profession is that this may lead to sharper teacher performance appraisal and even pay for performance, horror, horror

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  31. Trevor Mallard (248 comments) says:

    Bit caught up at the moment but original thoughts on this issue here:- http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2009/06/11/education-standards-who-are-they-for/

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  32. burt (8,269 comments) says:

    Trevor Mallar

    So the education dept charter of ensuring every child reaches their full potential will just happen – no need to measure it becasue Labour are so smart they can manage things they cannot measure. Clever people socialists – especially when nobody can prove otherwise.

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  33. Jeff83 (745 comments) says:

    Problem with it is it is going further make the push towards people wanting to send their kids to high decile schools which are already bursting at the seams, which are generally higher decile schools for the reasons which make high decile schools suceed more academically – its not like this is some hidden knowledge.

    If there is to be “testing” it should be on how much a school ‘improves’ a students performance not the end performance its self.

    For example if you take an A- student and a C student. At the end of the year the A- student is still an A- student but the C student has moved to being a B student, one can see which got ‘value added’ during their year. What I understand is the problem at the moment is the focus will be much like it is for Bursary, now NCEA lvl 3, on who got the most top marks. Its simply going to be the higher decile schools, and their are many social reasons for this.

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  34. Jeff83 (745 comments) says:

    Redbaiter – “Mickey Savage is an uneducated dumbfuck. His loony opinions on this issue and most other issues show just why when it comes to education, the left don’t want anything other than to indoctrinate the young. ”

    Red I could describe you in very much less than flatering opinions, I resist, you should do the same. Not my blog so not my decision, but that personal attack should definitely incur infraction points, its not needed.

    “The education system must be private. Otherwise it becomes dysfunctional and we end up with a population of half educated numb brains like Mickey Savage, MNIJ and the legion of equally stupefied socialist morons who plague this site these days.”

    If I could do a nice big rolleyes I so would right now. Essentially you are saying that kids wont get an education because their parents are poor. Quite frankly that opinion can go and fuck itself. Its no secret that a portion of society, which I suspect includes you and me, subserdise education for those at the bottom who quite frankly cant afford to pay for private education which would be around 1/3 of their annual income – taking the median salary of $35k approx less tax.

    The fact you believe that I am a moron “stupid” because you hold a different, extreme, view just shows how ignorant you are.

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  35. Inventory2 (10,340 comments) says:

    burt – you’re on to it. Of course the education unions and the former government don’t want information on national standards coming out, because the results are going to be damning, and will reflect very poorly on a government and education sector captured by leftist ideology at the expense of the Three R’s.

    Although this no longer affects me personally with both the offspring at University, I am sure that most parents would far rather that their children are grounded in the basics that they will need to survive in the workforce – concepts such as numeracy and literacy – rather than being comforted that they have mastered such nebulous ideals as Peace Studies and Trade Union Studies, and learning to be tolerant towards all religions except for the one on which our society was founded.

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  36. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    Christ, who cares what No Right Turn thinks?

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  37. Owen McShane (1,226 comments) says:

    OUr public schools are now religious schools spreading the new animist religion of environmentalism.
    You only need to read the Greenpage in the Herald which features poems and such like from ten year old talking about how the Earth mother is being destroyed by the nasty human species drilling her full of holes etc.
    And the page authors describe humans as the criminals because they breathe out carbon dioxide a greenhouse gas..
    A number of Americans have demanded that their children be exempt from certain classes on the grounds that they are peddling religion. These are classes on sustainability and caring for the planet etc.

    I would rather send my child to a genuine religious private school rather than subject them to this religion which claims to be science. At least I know where I stand with the christian schools.

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  38. gingercrush (153 comments) says:

    Um this is mickysavage. Goff could take a shit in public and he’d still celebrate the great Labour party.

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  39. Craig Ranapia (1,915 comments) says:

    Trevor:

    Who is the Official Information Act for?

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  40. Brian Marshall (202 comments) says:

    Maybe Trevor can tell us why he chose to send his children to be educated at Hutt Valley High School instead of Wainuiomata College or Parkway College? He lives in Wainuiomata but couldn’t send his kids to either the two local schools when there were two.

    Is that choice or hypocrisy? I’m not sure. Trevor?

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  41. burt (8,269 comments) says:

    Brian

    Perhaps his kids got expelled from the two local schools for punching people.

    Actually I’ve asked Trevor this question before and he never answers. It’s OK to impose zoning on other people eh Trevor.

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  42. Brian Smaller (4,023 comments) says:

    Its simply going to be the higher decile schools, and their are many social reasons for this.

    And the main one is that poor people who see welfare as their right and call it “pay” have no ambition – for themselves or their offspring. People who are poor who have come from countries where having no income means dying really know how to value education. back in the 70s I was in Asia. I was walking around a pile of garbage and discovered that there were people living inside a hollowed out mound of rubbish. The mother was cooking rice over a fire and the kids were in school uniform and studying on the floor (well, on cardboard layed over plastic sheet). They had ambition.

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  43. Inventory2 (10,340 comments) says:

    pushmepullu said “Christ, who cares what No Right Turn thinks?”

    Normally I’d agree, but when he agrees with DPF and slags off Mallard and Labour, it’s worthy of note :-)

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  44. racer1 (352 comments) says:

    “Brian Marshall (40) Vote: Add rating 2 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    June 30th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    Maybe Trevor can tell us why he chose to send his children to be educated at Hutt Valley High School instead of Wainuiomata College or Parkway College? He lives in Wainuiomata but couldn’t send his kids to either the two local schools when there were two.”

    Because like many people his kids probably wanted to go to a different school, so they went into the ballot and were lucky enough to be drawn from it. They are no more likely to be able to get to that school under a voucher system, as there will still be just as many people wanting to attend that school, trying to fit into the same number of places.

    “mickysavage
    No because the data collected does not measure the right thing. And letting the data go into the public arena undermines the public network of competent schools model. And collecting the data actually decreases the quality of education provided rather than increasing it.”

    Teaching for tests is a big issue, probably the key issue. Learning to pass a test is most certainly to the detriment of learning a subject. It is why you see private school kids have a higher drop out rate at uni (aside from the fact they can’t look after themselves once they leave home), it is not in the uni’s self interest to bend the rules concerning internal assessment the way that private schools do.

    Maybe a better measure would be how much the ex pupils are earning 25 years down the track? though that would kind of be beside the point, all it would show is kids from rich areas do better than poor areas, highlighting the egalitarian myth, and give you lot a guilty conscience in public (but a good laugh in trusted company)

    It also overstates the effect that teachers have. How do you expect the good schools to stay good schools once poor and dumb people start getting in?

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  45. racer1 (352 comments) says:

    Also, what the hell is with this “all public schools teach is socialism”. I’ve only ever heard it inside the blogosphere?

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  46. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Also, what the hell is with this “all public schools teach is socialism”. I’ve only ever heard it inside the blogosphere?”

    Try crawling out from under your rock a bit more frequently reptile.

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  47. side show bob (3,660 comments) says:

    Gee racer be careful you’ll get blisters on you tongue. How dare us mare mortals question the great Trev. Why would Trev’s kids want to go to a different school when they can get a “suitable” brainwashing from a state indoctrination center. There is a strong whiff of hyprocacy in the air.

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  48. racer1 (352 comments) says:

    “# Redbaiter (6628) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    June 30th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    “Also, what the hell is with this “all public schools teach is socialism”. I’ve only ever heard it inside the blogosphere?”

    Try crawling out from under your rock a bit more frequently reptile.”

    Plenty of time asking people about it too, they either laugh, or say “huh?”

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  49. racer1 (352 comments) says:

    Though I presume what you really mean is if I go out and ask specific redbaiter approved cranks, I will get specific redbaiter approved crank answers in reply.

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  50. jackp (668 comments) says:

    It has been my experience that the schools are constantly trying to keep important information away from the parents. I have tried but kept running into a bureaucratic wall. It was over a test my son took. He said he didn’t do to well. I reacted like most concerned parents and asked him to bring home the test so we could go over it. I could then find his strengths and weaknesses. The school wouldn’t give me his test. They did give me a blank test but not the one he took. Mickeysavage might have a winded answer for this but it is another example how the administration is trying to come between me and my son. The school is covering its ass for some reason. There is a loud hush going through schools that points to some cover up. I know it is there because I keep running into walls when I ask questions. I think the way to go is private.

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  51. Brian Marshall (202 comments) says:

    Racer1 you’re a dick for answering for Trevor. You’re making excuses for him so he doesn’t have to answer the question. I guess you’re some sort of apologist for Labour and it’s short sighted excuse for an education policy.

    I do not always support right wing policies, and am not member of any polical party so I’m free to think for myself and can pick and choose the smartest or best from any side of the polical spectrum, but ranking schools so parent know how well their childrens schools are rating is information, that I as a parent, want to know.

    Anyway Labour made great pains to make Zoning manditory, and I think he’s a hypocrite until I can see an explaination that is anything other than not wanting to send the kids to the local schools.

    (In case anybody thinks I’m some sort of silverspoon rightwing, stuff the poor right winger, I grew up in Wanuiomata, went to the local schools and thanks to the strong emphasis on getting an education from my parents, own my own house as do all my four brothers and one sister).

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