The vileness of the BNP
The BNP is wasting no time reminding us why they are so loathsome. Their new MEP, Andrew Brons, has said that Dame Kelly Holmes is not “fully British”.
So let us look at the respective contributions towards Britain by both individuals. First Dame Kelly:
- Won Olympic gold medals for 800 and 1500 metres in 2004
- Served in the British Army for nine years from age 18
- Born in Kent
- Has been a nursing assistant to disabled patients
- BBC Sports Personality of the Year in 2004
- Made DBE in 2005
- Last month was made President of Commonwealth Games England
And now Andrew Brons:
- Joined the neo-nazi National Socialist Movement at age of 17
- At age 19 joined the then BNP which merged two years later to become the National Front
- Co-edited the NF journal New Nation with Richard Verrall – a holocaust denier
- In 1983 led a march in Leeds where they shouted slogans including “white power” and “death to Jews”
Not much of a contest is there.
1 Total TweetBacks: (Tweet this post)
Tags: Andrew Brons, BNP, Kelly Holmes
June 15th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
my god!
gotta love democracy eh? maybe Lord Vader was right
June 15th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Nah there is tar in there somewhere. Bleedin’ obvious.
Best news was a documentary on the diverse ethnicity of the British at large.
Using DNA and 100 victims, they confirmed that the UK, and Ireland are indeed the mongrel nations.
Seafaring, slave trade, colonisations across the globe.
The funniest bit was the DNA profile of one of these white supremacy fucktards , who had 15% Tar content against a norm of 6%.
He hit the camera!!
so funny.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
One has to shake their head at how politically stupid the BNP is with that vile attack. Hard to get more “British” than military service and representing your country at the highest level.
BNP are getting backlash type support and, to an extent, it is understandable when there are examples of radical groups abusing western freedoms to effectively complain about western freedoms but they should never be confused as a patriotic party. They are little more than a bunch of racist thugs who didn’t get enough hugs as children.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
DPF – you missed this bit from the article
“Police have stepped up security around Mr Brons’s home in Harrogate, North Yorkshire, after threats against him were posted on a football fans’ internet chat room.”
Well, that at least, is very, very British.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
What, she’s not a pasty red-faced lard arse?
Their leader could do with a spell away from the pie cupboard as well. Idiot protesters throwing eggs, though. Looks like he’d have scraped them off his suit and made fried egg sandwich.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
I wonder if this moron questions the ‘British’ purity of the royal family?
June 15th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Apparently these BNP chaps are big enough to make nasty comments about darkies in speeches indoors where it’s nice and safe, but the same website shows how they run when anyone who objects to their views confronts them (Admittedly, with eggs in this case…)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/5487426/Nick-Griffin-pelted-with-eggs-at-BNP-press-conference.html
June 15th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Why is this even a story?
Can we say “media beatup”?
June 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Ratbiter (1144) Vote: 0 0 Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Apparently these BNP chaps are big enough to make nasty comments about darkies in speeches indoors where it’s nice and safe, but the same website shows how they run when anyone who objects to their views confronts them (Admittedly, with eggs in this case…)
That’s right, ratty, violence is the answer, isn’t it?
Reminds me of how a bunch of muslims went all loco over a few cartoons …
June 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Of course Kelly’s not fully British, it stands to reason – she’s actually won something. She used to be far more British when she “only” managed fourth at Atlanta whilst running with a stress fracture in her leg…
MNIJ – when football fans are posting threats against twats like Bron rather than parrotting his idiocy then at least something has changed for the better in my homeland.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
getstaffed – It’s perfectly ok to have generations of cousin marriages, so long as they are white. Honestly where are your priorities?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancestry_of_Elizabeth_II_of_the_United_Kingdom
June 15th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Rakaia George (178) Vote: 0 1 Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
MNIJ – when football fans are posting threats against twats like Bron rather than parrotting his idiocy then at least something has changed for the better in my homeland.
So now the white football fans are peaceful and the black ones are violent, that’s an improvement?
June 15th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Griffin reads almost like some of our favourite friends from these threads:
“We do have a problem with this organised mob which is backed by all three main political parties. It’s a disgrace. They clearly had orders,” he said afterwards.
“They are silly left wing students, lecturers and probably civil service parasites off on their lunch break. This is a mob for hire.”
June 15th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
“That’s right, ratty, violence is the answer, isn’t it?”
This is a man who in his earlier days campaigned for forced repatriation of non-whites from England, MNIJ.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
You have to watch out for the egg wielding terrorists Ratbiter, dangerous object your standard egg, can kill at 100 paces in the hands of an eggspert!
June 15th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
This is a man who in his earlier days campaigned for forced repatriation of non-whites from England, MNIJ.
So that makes violence OK, does it? Well, it may in your book, but not in mine.
I once campaigned against the White Australia policy – experience since has shown me that I was wrong, Arthur Calwell was right when he said “Two Wongs don’t make a White”.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
The Rise of the ‘Idiot’ Right – a series
The ‘Idiot’ right wing – part 2
June 15th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Moderation seems to be holding things up so once again, The Rise of the ‘Idiot’ Right – a series
June 15th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
The ‘Idiot’ right wing – part 2
June 15th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Another day ending in Y, is it? Remember, these are the same charmers who said Lance Corporal Johnson Beharry (who happens to be black) only got the Victoria Cross due to political correctness gone mad. After all, anyone can drive away really fast under fire.
The full citation, too long to quote here, tells a very different story:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/57587/supplements/3369 (PDF)
These arseholes are pure class, but only if you drop the C and the L first.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
If Britain doesn’t want her can we have her? We need more good people in New Zealand.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
MyNameIsJack wrote:
That’s right, ratty, violence is the answer, isn’t it?
No it isn’t, for a start pelting a waste of skin like Nick Griffin with eggs is a waste of good food while children are going hungry.
OTOH, the scum that the BNP is the whitewashed public face of will quite happily dish out a lot worse to people like Kelly Holmes if they had half a chance. Some perspective in order, perhaps?
June 15th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
I think we need to remember that Brons is one voice… it will be his voice that is boo’ed and his face that is egged… but he has 1000′s of people who believe what he believes, and the believe strongly enough to give him their votes. There have been racists and uber nationalists since Adam was a lad. Seeing them gain traction in an open democracy is the real concern.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
While I agree that Andrew Bons comments are disgusting I would like to ask how they differ from some of the things we hear from the Maori party and Hone Harawhira in particular?
It’s all well and good to get hot under the collar about something that is happening twelve thousand miles away yet we have the same shit happening here and nothing is said about it.
If you have sympathy for John Harawhira’s comments then you must agree with the words of Andrew Bons.
[DPF: The Maori Party does not ban whities from joining, and does not advocate the expulsion of all non-Maori from NZ. And they most certainly do not regard someone of mixed ancestry as not fully Maori]
June 15th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
“# petal (364) 1 4 Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Why is this even a story?
Can we say “media beatup”?”
4 thumbs down? What’s wrong with you people? Some neo-nazi goes for the cheap shot and ignoring him isn’t an option?
This wouldn’t even be a story if she hadn’t been “Strikingly beautiful”, right?
June 15th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
I’ve been looking at the media response to the BNP win and Griffin’s egging for Media7, and it’s quite interesting.
Some media organisations have questioned the acceptability of a mob attacking a democratically-elected MP to stop him speaking, but the general tone has been one of gloating.
More particularly, Griffin is now offside with The Sun (which he banned from his follow-up press conference) and The Daily Star (which is offering a cash prize for its ‘Chuck a Chapati’ challenge to nail Griffin with some more food projectiles). They know — as they did during the Danish cartoons furore — that a substantial proportion of their readers are non-white.
I think it’s going to be a long five years in the media for Griffin.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
The response of the Sun was interesting Russell.
“[The] cowardly BNP leader had hoped to revel in his racist party’s Euro poll wins at a triumphant press conference. Instead the yolk-speckled chicken showed his yellow streak when he was sent packing by anti-fascist protesters.”
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2472570/BNP-racists-flee-Commons-protesters.html
The egg game is a UK Tabloid Classic.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
I agree Big Bruv.
“They are silly left wing students, lecturers and probably civil service parasites off on their lunch break. This is a mob for hire.”
Are you sure he wasn’t referring to NZ Labour/Green Party supporters?
June 15th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
A number of points.
The BNP received over a million votes in the recent euro lolly scramble.
Most of these votes came from traditional labour areas and it is commonly believed that most of their supporters are “natural” labour voters.
As Britain is now effectively a dictatorship governed by an unelected leader who has stuffed his cabinet with unelected appointees it is little wonder that many are voting BNP in a retarded protest vote.
The inner city degradation in the midlands and north of England is a tragedy beyond measure. Cities with 20% unemployment rates (and remember these figures will have been “laboured” to hide the real number). Couple that with the fact that to be English living in England these days makes you a lesser being than anybody living in NI or Scotland or Wales where they have direct parliaments and more per capita funding in health and education.
England is ruled by a British parliament made up by a ruling clique of scottish idiots and “lords”. The place is a powder keg. I have not even touched on the islamification of Luton and Coventry and Bradford and many other northern cities and the millions that have poured in from eastern europe and the sub continent.
The place is completely rooted.
Like DPF, I think any comparison between the Maori party and the BNP is unhelpful but David your comment about the Maori party allowing mixed race Maori in is daft. How many bloody members would they have if they didn’t allow mixed race members?
It is a matter of deep personal shame to me that the BNP is most popular in Barnsley, South Yorkshire.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
course the Moari party does talk about the “browning of new zealand”.. like its a goal!
has anyone seen “Kingi” today… i saw a lowlife on tv with that surname.. he is wanted by police. could be our guy!
June 15th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
DPF
Hone is well know for telling constituents to “piss off” unless they are on the Maori electoral role, he has also said on more than one occasion that he is happy for all non Maori to “go home”, how does this differ from the BNP?
Are you making excuses for our own version of the BNP because they are part of the National led government?
June 15th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
“[DPF: The Maori Party does not ban whities from joining"
They might as well ban non-Maori from joining. What non-Maori would join a party that wants privileges/benefits on the basis of race at their expense?
"and does not advocate the expulsion of all non-Maori from NZ"
The BNP are fine with non-British people working there who are contributing and not illegals.
"And they most certainly do not regard someone of mixed ancestry as not fully Maori]”
That’s because there are no “full Maori”.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
@ Petal: “This wouldn’t even be a story if she hadn’t been “Strikingly beautiful”, right?”
Wrong. Considering she won two Olympic gold medals, this would have been a story even if she looked like a bag of hatchets.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Well said Craig. Indeed, there has been more than one comment in military circles that the said Lance Corporal was a little unlucky that his incredible acts of bravery occurred so close together as he might have been up for VC and bar.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
Whatever the BNP guy had to say, there is no justification for attacking him with eggs or any other means. However hideous the BNP is perceived to be, these scum who put such a low value on freedom of political expression (like Sonik and his cohorts) are much more of a threat than the BNP.
These are the same cowardly totalitarian bastards who attacked John Boscowen.
Who screamed down and attacked ACT candidates on so many other occasions.
Who threw bags of urine and feces at Pauline Hanson.
It doesn’t matter who the victim is, it is the principle of freedom of expression that must be protected, and too few remember what has happened in the past when left wingers who think like Sonik and Ratbiter et al managed to quash all opposition and achieve the one party state that is their dream.
One only has to see photographs of the skulls piled in heaps in Cambodia, or remember Stalin’s purges and starvation strategies, the mass murders of Mao, the more recent murders in Tienanmen square to understand that point.
These scum make heroes of murdering filth like Che Guevara and Fidel Castro. Kiss their damn feet, and then go and throw eggs at the BNP??? FFS. What absolute damn hypocrites.
June 15th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
But advocating for hanging people you don’t like from lamp post is still ok?
June 15th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Racer, if stupidity was a hanging offence, your neck would get a damn good stretching every time you posted here.
June 15th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
“Are you making excuses for our own version of the BNP because they are part of the National led government?”
I find it utterly appalling that someone who once equated the European colonisation of NZ with the Holocaust (Turiana Turia) now sits comfortably on the government benches at John Key’s invitation.
June 15th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Interesting how to jump to that chromatic conclusion – as someone who has spent a lot of time on the terraces of English football grounds during and since the successful “Kick Racism out of Football” campaign…I can tell you that you’re flat wrong to characterise it like that.
June 15th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Throwing eggs, communist terrorism
Hanging people- totally justifiable.
Welcome to the crazy world of Redbleater, just be glad you don’t have to live there.
June 15th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
@EverlastingFire
“That’s because there are no “full Maori”.
This is an important point, because European fascists are singularly obsessed with notions of racial purity.
Whatever the Maori Party’s ideology (which we will argue about till the cows come home), it is unhelpful to make the comparison for that reason alone.
June 15th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Sonic;
Freedom with a capital F is a great principle. You can hide behind it whenever all sorts of uncomfortable issues are discussed. Whenever a moral judgement about whether something is in good taste or bad, good or evil, fair or unfair, right or wrong OUGHT to be made, but you are too much of a pussy to do so or you just don’t care.
“He’s perfectly entitled to stand up and say that. It may be the most evil, ugly thing I’ve heard all year, but hey, he’s got his rights so who am I to stand in the way?”
June 15th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
However I also have the perfect right to comment on it then Ratbiter, wouldn’t you agree?
June 15th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
I would have thought so. Lord Mayor Baiter is the sole judge of who is making a fair point and who is an Anti-Freedom commie thug, however.
June 15th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
I’ll await his judgement with due trepidation Ratty!
June 15th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Dame Kelly Holmes is a babe!!
June 15th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
Strikingly beautiful even.
June 15th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
NZ tends to be smug when it looks at the BNP in Britain, but in one sense the Brits are more protected from BNP’s desired racial separation than NZ is.
Britain’s first-past-the-post (FPP) electoral system means the BNP is extremely unlikely ever to gain control of Britain.
NZ abandoned FPP for MMP, the system under which the National Socialists rose to power in Germany, at first as a minority. (The only difference from the 1930s MMP system is the 5 per cent threshold, introduced by the German people after WW2. NZ adopted this threshold)
Under MMP there are more chances of racial separation being implemented at least politically in New Zealand, than in Britain. MMP is about fluid alliances and coalitions — an environment in which the National Socialists were able to take over in 1930s Germany.
The Maori Party wields politiical power well in excess of its electoral vote, and this illustrates the danger MMP creates. As pointed out by DPF and others above, the Maori Party is not racist in the sense that the National Socialists were and the BNP is, but the Maori Party favours racial separation in politics, as evidenced by its stand on Auckland SuperCity voting structure.
If Maori have reserved voting in the super-city, and as has been suggested, so do Pacific Islanders and Asians, this means there must also be “white” voting. Do we want such race-based voting in NZ? MMP makes this more likely in NZ than it is in Britain, BNP or not.
June 15th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
@Jack5
The Nazis swept into power because the direct election of the chancellor to the Reichstag, and the 1933 Enabling Act.
NZ has experienced neither of these things under MMP.
June 15th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
Wow, that’s a great theory Jack5! Except it is total bullshit with no basis in fact whatsoever. Garbled and ignorant history presented as fact to serve an pre-conceived agenda? on kiwiblog? Who would have thought!
The Weimar Republic’s Electoral Law was passed on April 27, 1920, and later enshrined in Article 22 of its constitution.
The Weimar electoral system divided Germany into thirty-five regions in which votes were cast for lists of candidates fielded by the national parties. With the German population at that time being 62.4 million, an electoral districts averaged 1.7 million inhabitants. A party needed to receive either 60,000 votes per district or 60,000 surplus votes garnered from several contiguous regions in order to enter the Reichstag. Then, further seats could be obtained with only 30,000 surplus votes collected from anywhere in the republic. This system ensured that almost no votes were wasted, but it also set the threshold for election at 0.04 percent on average. This effectively guaranteed that almost any political party, however small, would be granted some form of representation, and thus political power, in the Weimar legislature.
By contrast, the MMP system your somewhat confused version of history associates with the Weimar Republic was designed in 1948/49 specifically to try and have a PR system that avoided the splintering of representation that was widely held to have crippled the Wiemar Republic, and the German 5% threshold was specifically designed to keep far-right (or left) parties out of power. indeed, in Germany you must win THREE electoral seats before you trigger the proportional top that you get here.
June 15th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Ephemera… Don’t want to get sidetracked into history of Nazis, but they were elected under MMP, and historian Michael Burleigh describes their accession to power as a “complex process of bargaining and intrigue…”
Sounds like everyday MMP coalition politics to me.
Of course NZ hasn’t experienced an internal Nazi threat. But the point is that it is easier for a small minority to force its goal on the majority under MMP than it is under FPP. If FPP rides roughshod over minorities, MMP rides roughshod over majorities.
There is more danger of a race-based voting system being implemented fully in NZ than there is of the BNP setting national policy in Britain.
June 15th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Also to be considered is the fact that us Poms don’t do extremism. The commie party has always been small and this is the biggest result for the BNP since getting a couple of council seats a decade or more ago…compare that with France and the profile that Jean-Marie Le Pen has.
On the downside it means that whilst being thoroughly shafted by Brown, the British electorate has grumbled on and had another cuppa when the French would have burnt half the livestock trucks in Europe by now…
June 15th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Jack 5 – wtf are you on about? MMP was, effectively, imposed post WWII by the Western allies to prevent another Hitler rising.
June 15th, 2009 at 9:52 pm
Re Tom Semmens at 9.15…
Tom, we were talking about MMP v FPP. The Weimar system was list based, proportional, and under it no single political party gained a majority. You may be right in that electoral seats were added after WW2 to what had been a purely list-based system, as was the threshold. But your statement “no basis in history” is the bullshit. Do you think Hitler was elected under FPP?
You must be one of the Greens who still see no flaws in MMP. It’s the only way that collection of melon-greens, far lefties, vegans, folk dancers, and dope heads could get into the House of Representatives.
Even Greens must grasp that the Maori Party would have a snowball’s chance in hell of getting race-based voting adopted for Auckland super city under FPP? And that under an MMP system in the UK, the BNP would be in Westminster much sooner and on the rise than it could ever be under FPP.
June 15th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
To GPT1 at 9.51….
Not so. In the British Zone, the Brits even tried to introduce FPP.
June 15th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
@Jack5,
I agree wholeheartedly with you about the intrigue MMP brings. There are pros and cons.
But it seems to me you were placing MMP at the heart of race-based politics. I would argue that this style of politics has always been there, but under MMP are laid bare and equips the public to make better choices.
The Maori party will never seize power in NZ, as there will never be enough people to vote for them. They appeal to a electorate which feels the need for specialist representation. I put them on par with the Christian Heritage Party. (Whether the Christians are theocrats or not is another argument).
Under FPP, these tendencies exist, but the intrigue is submerged. We would have a Labour Party with Maori and green wings trying to vy not just for policy, but for outright supremacy within their parties. National might have socially liberal free-marketeers akin to Act doing the same.
Now it is all out in the open, and the ‘Maori wing’ can be more public in its dealings, and not beholden to the doctrine of a larger party. This appeals to conservatives, because it is about choice and breaks the parties into more competitive units in the marketplace of ideas. It becomes less about vast collectivism within a party-political machine.
Although, yes, the Maori Party has a racial component to it (it’s in the name!) It is simply catering to an electorate that participates in Marae and Iwi systems. Just as labour does with trade unions, or National does with business.
We can attack the Maori Party for their policy, but it’s disingenuous to compare their ideology with the BNP. It only brings heat, with no light
June 15th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
Ephemera (10pm)
I don’t and haven’t compared Maori Party ideology with that of BNP except to differentiate them. The Maori Party advocates a race-based voting system for Auckland Super City, but does not (not) advocate the racist views of the BNP, which I believe would be rejected by nearly all New Zealanders.
I repeat what I said in my 6.53 post:”As pointed out by DPF and others above, the Maori Party is not racist in the sense that the National Socialists were and the BNP is, but the Maori Party favours racial separation in politics, as evidenced by its stand on Auckland SuperCity voting structure.”
June 15th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Jack, this is the second time you have been corrected, on kiwiblog, for making exactly the same claim.
June 15th, 2009 at 10:09 pm
Racer 1: I think I was challenged on the origins of MMP but not corrected.
The fact that the solid old British advocated a FPP system for post-war Germany should tell you something about the fairness of MMP.
Hell’s teeth you Greens are sensitive about the weaknesses in MMP.
Come up with another proportional voting system.
Can we get back to the BNP and whether it would fare better under FPP or MMP?
June 15th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
You don’t really know what your talking about do you?
June 15th, 2009 at 10:24 pm
I don’t really care about the BNP. It is the people who matter, enough of them wanted them elected, and that’s what they got. I don’t believe an electoral system should be designed around keeping certain parties out of power. If their ideas are that repulsive, they wouldn’t be elected.
June 15th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Racer1: Your 10.21 post is just a troll comment. Be specific or get back under the bridge.
Re your 10.24. But an electoral system that favours small minorities can unfairly help atrocious political groups into assemblies.
June 15th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
Jack5, if FPP had been used in Germany during the 1930s, the November 1932 election might well have seen the Nazis (with 33% of the vote, more than any other party) gain a majority of seats in the Reichstag. This has happened before in FPP systems.
The proportional system guaranteed that the largest party would not be able to govern alone and would have to seek coalition partners.
The main problem was that the Nazi’s junior coalition partners, the Nationalists, failed to effectively moderate the Nazis’ policies. But this was a lack of spine on their part, not a failure of the proportional system.
But if Germany had had FPP in the 1930s the Nazi’s rise to power would have been smoother. FPP almost always delivers a majority to the largest party, even if they are only marginally larger than the opposition and most of the country doesn’t support them. Look to the 1981 and 1993 NZ elections if you don’t believe me.
June 15th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
@Jack5
I fear I embarked on a massive spiel without taking everything you wrote into account. Please accept my apologies.
I am still trying to get my head around the Maori party’s stand on the super-city voting structure. But there is a certain nuance to this racial separation.
The Maori party know that they will not get all Maori onto the separate electoral roll, and not all Maori people will vote for them.
Also, there are some hard-working Maori politicians in most other parties who have different perspectives and would have Maori interests in mind: Mitiria Turei; Georgina te Heuheu; Paula Bennett; Kelvin Davis.
With regard to separate electoral roll and Maori seats (whether in Auckland or parliament), The Maori Party appears fixated on the preservation of the Maori roll (and by extension the preservation of their own party, one might argue).
The Maori party are active on marae and within iwi, and believe that under the treaty of waitangi, these aspects of kiwi culture hold equal validity to democratic institutions created outside of marae and iwi. I believe it is foolish to assume these systems don’t exist within NZ society simply because we don’t see them in play.
The argument should be over how much purchase we give these aspects of NZ culture. If we don’t desire separation, then a competing vision for the accommodation of maori systems of governance needs to be established.
June 15th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
Pushmepullu at 10.34…
Reasonable argument, but then if Bruning had led a party securely elected under FPP, he may have been able securely to implement the necessary deflationary policy that proved so unpopular and helped the Nazis to rise. By the time of the next FPP election he might then have held off the Nazis. In this scenario, FPP could have kept the Nazis out.
Of the Maori roll. I understand the historic reasons for this. But continued intermarriage, the rise in Maori population, and the ability and confidence of Maori mean they can easily foot it with non-Maori in a non-race-based electoral system.
June 15th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Bruning’s party got 11.8% of the vote. Under an FPP system he would never have become Chancellor. He’d probably never have even made it into the Reichstag.
June 15th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
Sorry Emphemera (10.36). I put my response to your post on the bottom of the response to pushmepullu.
Here is is again: Of the Maori roll. I understand the historic reasons for this. But continued intermarriage, the rise in Maori population, and the ability and confidence of Maori mean they can easily foot it with non-Maori in a non-race-based electoral system.
I think it’s great the fine Maori MPs coming through the parties on the general roll. In fewer generations probably all New Zealanders will be Maori and all New Zealanders will be Pakeha, with also other cultural heritages such as Pasifika and Chinese.
Getting there in a civilised way is the big task.
We’ve strayed well off the BNP, so goodnight, and thanks for the debate.
June 15th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
The “white population” of the UK at the last census was 92.1%, “non white” a giant 7.9%
(http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=455)
Therefore for the BNP to argue that “white people” are being swamped in are in danger of losing their culture through foreign immigration is, on the face of it, nonsense. The technique of the BNP and other nazi groups is to scapegoat a minority group (Jewish people in Germany in the 1930′s, Muslim people in the UK in the 2000′s) and blame them for all of the countries problems.
Fascists also always attempt mobilise a mass movement in the population, especially amongst the middle class, to smash the left and the unions. Don’t relax however moderate conservatives, they will come for you soon enough.
Against all of that someone threw an egg, good luck to them.
June 15th, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Whoops! Pushmepullu (10.50)
If there had been FPP, most of the tiny parties would have been squeezed out. Bruning’s party would have had many of the numbers that were splintered among his coalition partners.
I think that’s one of the points of FPP, it leads to coalition of interests in larger parties.
June 15th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
Sonic:
I am overcome. I agree with you. I must go and have a drink to get over this.
June 15th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
@Jack5,
I agree with you again about increased ability, confidence, intermarriage, etc. That is reflected by the number of Maori MPs in other parties, and the amount of Maori voters willing to voter for other parties.
But this is also why the Maori Party isn’t purely about racial separatism, but the enforcement of distinct maori systems of governance.
If we expect maori to foot it with non-maori, then we need to intermarry marae and tribal systems more effectively. Become more Maori ourselves, perhaps?
June 15th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
Actually Jack, Bruning’s party was one of those tiny parties that would have been squeezed out. His party was the fourth largest in the Reichstag, after the Nazis, the Social Democrats and the Communists. Given FPP’s preference for two large parties, it’s much more likely that voters would have abandoned Bruning’s Centre party for a larger party than vice versa.
The most likely scenario of an FPP Germany in the 1930s is a two-party system divided between Nazis and Social Democrats. Pretty scary huh?
June 15th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
Yes pushmepullu. All of us posters would be sweating in case the jackboot mob got in.
Goodnight.
June 15th, 2009 at 11:05 pm
# Jack5 (599) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Racer1: Your 10.21 post is just a troll comment. Be specific or get back under the bridge.
Re your 10.24. But an electoral system that favours small minorities can unfairly help atrocious political groups into assemblies.
There is the tiniest benefit to small parties in the rounding, which could very easily be fixed, other than that, it is a proportional system, they only get as many seats in Parliament as their vote entitles them to.
June 15th, 2009 at 11:07 pm
My 10.21 comment is in referance to A your assumption that I’m a green voter, and B your suggestion of coming up with another proportional system. If it is proportional, small parties (with sufficient support) are going to get elected. Its as simple as that, it doesn’t matter what name you put on it.
June 15th, 2009 at 11:45 pm
Sonik and his communist friends are as usual lying their heads off.
Today’s fascists are on the left. The evidence of this is in their promotion of big powerful government, their belief that government should control industry, their group think political ideology, their desperate intolerance for the views of others, but most of all, in their determination to smear and discredit and attack anyone who disagrees with them, as in the lying little coward Sonik’s every response to a Redbaiter post being an allegation of insanity.
No group is as big a danger to society and democracy today as the socialists. Their objective is totalitarianism. Always has been. Always will be.
The shame is that in this country, and especially the UK, where the historical foundations of individual liberty were formed, they’re a long way down the round to success.
The socialists have no right to call the BNP fascists or a threat to freedom. To posture as protectors of our rights. As bad as the BNP might be, they’ve got a long way to go before they ever get close to deceit and the terror and murder and suppression of speech and thought that the left has historically engaged in.
June 16th, 2009 at 12:24 am
Here’s quite a good article I’ve just read on the very issue:
http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/2009/06/15/edi_527649.shtml
Check out the comments.
June 16th, 2009 at 7:40 am
1. The pre-war electoral system in Germany was not MMP. A proportional system, certainly, but not MMP.
2. What do you mean, ‘at first as a minority’? The National Socialists never attained a majority – the closest they got was 40-something percent.
3. 40-something percent will often be a majority under FPP.
4. If you’re worried about a minority gaining power because of an electoral system, then FPP is not your answer. Look at New Zealand in 1981: the major parties opposed to Muldoon’s National Party – Labour and Social Credit – got a shade under 60% of the vote, but National’s 38.77% was enough for power.
5. It is unlikely, yes, that the BNP will get control of Britain under FPP, but it would be even less likely under a proportional system. Under a proportional system, they’d need 50%+ of the vote, or a coalition partner. MPs from other parties won’t even share a stage with them. Under FPP, they could turn a minority of support into a majority in the result.
June 16th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Pre-war Germany had a list-based proportional voting system that was amended into the MMP we adopted in NZ. The Nazis rose to power under it.
NZ is evidence of the power to small minorities that MMP gives. Look at the Maori Party, at the Greens, at NZ First. Compare them with how Social Credit struggled under FPP.
If a new right wing party were to gain traction in NZ it would fare far better under MMP than under FPP, under which it would undoubtedly die unseen.
MMP is undemocratic in the power it gives to small minorities. Find another proportional system if you don’t like FPP. Myself, I prefer FPP, which has provided stable democracy in NZ previously and the UK now.
The Greens love MMP because it gives them disproportional power.
June 16th, 2009 at 10:50 am
@Jack5
Please define “disproportional power”. How is a few outer-cabinet posts and policy trade-offs in exchange for supply and confidence disproportional?
June 16th, 2009 at 10:51 am
“In fewer generations probably all New Zealanders will be Maori and all New Zealanders will be Pakeha”
Ethnically, probably yes. But will Pakeha culture and systems continue to overwhelm and marginalise Maori culture and systems? That is the difficult bit.
June 16th, 2009 at 10:57 am
“If a new right wing party were to gain traction in NZ it would fare far better under MMP than under FPP, under which it would undoubtedly die unseen.”
You haven’t countered the argument I made to you about ‘submerged intrigue’, so I will make it again. The Green, Maori and Act voters and politicians won’t suddenly vanish under FPP, they would be co-opted into the larger parties. How will that be any different, except for diminished transparency for voters?
June 16th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Re Sam at 10.51…
I agree with your point. I guess those future generations will decide.
Re Emphera’s point. I think the larger parties generally dilute the influence of factions compared with what those factions would be as standalone parties.
Also “disproportional power” seems to me what tiny coalition partners get with cabinet posts and the like.
June 16th, 2009 at 11:03 am
@ Jack5
“I think the larger parties generally dilute the influence of factions”
But how is their influence diluted? What’s the tradeoff? A few outer cabinet posts and token policies, perhaps?
June 16th, 2009 at 11:11 am
As for the BNP, the question is should the throwing of an egg, as part of good political correction, be a criminal offence in the UK?
June 16th, 2009 at 11:23 am
@Jack5
I guess we will have to agree to disagree over what degree power the factions might weild.
In Britain right now, for example, the British Labour Party is tearing itself apart over the direction it should take. The same as the Conservatives did in the 90s, over Europe.
The BNP could possibly do quite well under an MMP election in Britain, but then British voters would push them out once they got over the teething process. Just like NZ First, Progressives and United Future will die with their leadership.
In NZ, for a far-right group to gain traction would require a unique set of circumstances. Do you think the main political parties, as they stand today, would conceivably go into coalition with a neofascist party?
October 25th, 2009 at 11:45 am
I find it fascinating that the UK Media focused on this vile racist party during this past week, from the BBC decision to have the BNP Griffin on the program Question Time last thursday on BBC1, the uproar on the debate to have them on, the small demonstration outside the BBC before, the total focus on the panel on the BNP and the bullying of all speakers to this rep.
Question time had the biggest audience EVER, the daily newspapers all focussed on the programme and the BNP, BBC World service broadcast to 450M people worldwide are repeating the programme, but what did Griffin say exactly, well not a lot as he was interrupted all the time, he called Islam as a represssive religion of woman, true, he said of Jack Straw, his father was in jail for refusing to fight for the british army, while Griffins dad had been in the RAF, True, not a lot else of major importance, why is everyone so worried and interested at the same time?
The IRA existed and killed, they are now in the Irish government ! crazy or what..
We live in democracies, alleged, everyone has one vote to do with as they may, racist or not, black white, pink, red who cares.. I respect all views…yeh right…
The BNP are offering to fill a void left by Labour & the Cons ignoring the common man, so whos surprised at that ???
October 25th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Griffin and the BNP are a bunch of inbred rednecks.
The BBC who have appointed themselves the defenders of the leftie handwringing middle classes, need to shut the fuck up & but out of playing politics and do their job of reporting the news and stop being the news.
Thanks to the BBC’s idiotic meddling the BNP has now been made martyrs in the eyes of their supporters and those sympathetic to their ’cause’.
I am afraid the score is now 1 Nil to the BNP.
October 25th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
So while the forth estate regale each other with hearty “well met Tarquin”s in the weekend papers they kind of miss the point that outside of their pointy headed urbane circles lives the rest of the normal curve some of whom are idiots who identify with Griffin and now have more of a reason to after seeing a bunch of pointy headed Southern pansies ‘gangup’ on their man Nick.
Ignore the idiot, don’t big him up.