UK Independence Party beats UK Labour

June 8th, 2009 at 2:25 pm by David Farrar

The European elections are not better for . At this stage it looks like Conservatives will get 27% (not great for them either), UKIP 17%, Labour 16%, Lib Dems 14%, Greens 9% and BNP 6%,

The British National Party has won at least one seat in the European Parliament, dismaying many. There is a (understandable IMO) backlash against Islamic immigration. A lot of people are saying we don’t care about your race, but we do care about your religion – if the religion means you reject our basic outlook on human rights and won’t integrate.

The BNP is a racist party. Their new MEP is a former neo-Nazi. It is a shame they got elected, but proportional representation makes it easy for miority parties to gain representation – the good and the bad.

But other parties in the European Union which are anti-Islamic immigration are not in the same league as the BNP. Classifying them all as “far right” is very simplistic.

Any It will be interesting if Brown survives until the election. It is very hard to remove a UK Labour Leader – it is not just a vote of Caucus.

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124 Responses to “UK Independence Party beats UK Labour”

  1. Countess of Cleavage (27 comments) says:

    My moat hasnt been cleaned in years but the trips as partner to Mustique did come in handy. We have to get back to just releasing summaries and yearly totals not the details, the voters just get the wrong impression

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  2. bearhunter (853 comments) says:

    BNP now up to two. Nick Griffin has been elected.

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  3. TCrwdb (242 comments) says:

    This is a natural result of too much liberal “we know better than you” policies being shoved down people’s throats. It was the same in Australia with Pauline Hanson. Islamic migration is a very serious issue for the west.

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  4. Fairfacts Media (372 comments) says:

    As I have argued over at No Minister and the Fairfacts Media Show, the election of two BNP MEPs is to be welcomed.
    It shows democracy at work.
    The mainstream parties have pissed off the British public with their sleaze and dishonesty over the expenses candalas.
    They have also become out of touch on so many issues, such as the EU and immigration.
    Thus, a gap between them and the fringe parties developed, which UKIP and the BNP filled pretty well.
    The election of two BNP MEPs also gives people a chance to better scrutinise the policies of the BNP, rather than they be kept hidden.
    They are a largely left-wing socialist party after all, with beliefs in a strong state and environmentalism after all.
    However, they are most in tune in opposing Islamism, something the UK Tories seem to be failing on.
    There are lessons for the mainstream in this.
    They need to be honest and they need to be more in tune with the wishes of the voters.
    Today’s vote, much as it is upsetting the liberal intelligentsia, shows how the commentariat have become so out of touch.
    Rather than a bad day for democracy like the liberals say, the Euro vote gave us all a good day.
    It shows the ballot box is working and will indeed keep the pollies on their toes, and hopefully make them honest and accountable! Something that hasn’t happened much in Britain in recent years, hence the result of today.
    I am sure our New Zealand politicians might learn something from the results today as well.

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  5. bearhunter (853 comments) says:

    Not exactly a vote against all the incumbents though, (depsite Labour’s shoeing in Wlaes) – the SNP are sprinting away in Scotland and Sinn Fein look to have good numbers in Northern Ireland. Great quote on the BBC blog:

    “I think this is a great personal victory for Michael Foot this evening,” says the Times’s Daniel Finkelstein of the man who led Labour to a crashing defeat in 1983. “He has emerged as not the biggest loser in Labour’s history.

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  6. Jcw (95 comments) says:

    Such a shame that a few people give islam a very bad name. I have lived in several muslim countries, albeit the more liberal ones, and would be happy for >99% of those arabs I meant to immigrate to NZ.

    Also interesting that the Pirate Party got a seat in the european paliment…. not that this is the appropriate palce for copyright discussion

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  7. bearhunter (853 comments) says:

    And an interesting quote from the Guardian’s blog:

    On D-Day, Britain sent an army to Europe to stop the Nazis getting to Britain. It is an absolute insult to the memories to those who fought that 65 years later Britain is now sending Nazis to Europe to represent us

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  8. Simon (727 comments) says:

    Yasmina Siadatan is a honey.

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  9. Rakaia George (313 comments) says:

    @bearhunter – an interesting quote and even more interesting to ponder that both events were occasioned by attempted takeovers by Europe against the will of the British people…

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  10. Ratbiter (1,265 comments) says:

    (Hat tip to Sickipedia for the following)

    What do the Conservative Party and the Atlantic have in common?

    Both have gained 200 seats this week.

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  11. jarbury (464 comments) says:

    That’s a pretty good showing by the Greens. How do these figures compare with last time around?

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  12. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    well said TCrwdb and Fairfacts, the libtards are reaping the whirlwind.

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  13. EverlastingFire (286 comments) says:

    I agree Fairfacts. If the Conservative Party opposed the “Islamification” of Britain and came down hard of asylum seekers, as well as those who seeks to take Britain away from their culture and values (like banning St. Georges day), the BNP wouldn’t be able to capitalize on the Conservatives and Labours weaknesses. They do just enough to please people to stay in power.

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  14. bearhunter (853 comments) says:

    So who banned St George’s Day? And when? I can find no banning of it anywhere. Certainly a few councils raised the issue of whether to celebrate it, but I can’t ifnd a ban anywhere. In any case, would St George actually get into an England ruled by those opposed to “Islamification”? He was Turkish after all.

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  15. MT_Tinman (3,202 comments) says:

    # bearhunter (444) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 1 Says:
    June 8th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    So who banned St George’s Day? And when? I can find no banning of it anywhere. Certainly a few councils raised the issue of whether to celebrate it, but I can’t ifnd a ban anywhere. In any case, would St George actually get into an England ruled by those opposed to “Islamification”? He was Turkish after all.

    “Turkish” is a religion?

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  16. Tom Semmens (79 comments) says:

    The problem in the UK is their hopelessly out of date electoral system.

    Looking at those results, only about one in four of those who bothered to vote voted for the Conservatives, yet it is odds on that at the next election the Tories will score a “crushing” victory based on winning a plurality in most electorate seats and a split protest vote on the left. But looking at those results, the UK “Centre left” would get around 44-45% and the UK Centre-Right around 55-56%. Given that even the Tories wouldn’t want to go into government with the BNP then if the British had a more enlightened and democratic electoral system it would seem probable that even this result would require some sort of accommodation with the Lib-Dems for the Tories to govern.

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  17. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @MT_Tinman

    bearhunter was responding to EverlastingFire’s post about English ‘culture and values’.

    I still maintain that the rise of the BNP has everything to do with the british class system, and ‘islamifaction’ is something of a red herring.

    Labour, traditionally the party which enjoys the support of the working class, has become more ‘middle class’ as Britain has become more prosperous. This Conservative Party lacks a Norman Tebbitt – type figure to capture their imagination, as they did under Thatcher.

    There are a lot of angry working class people, particularly in the north of England who feel neglected by both parties; The Conservatives have all but given up campaigning in places like Liverpool while Labour candidates are parachuted in from London HQ.

    The BNP is opportunistically filling this void by actively campaigning in white working class areas. The Islam thing is an issue requiring examination, but the BNP cynically sells it as the root of all Britain’s problems. Communities who see their own identities mirrored by BNP candidates are lapping it up.

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  18. EverlastingFire (286 comments) says:

    Bearhunter – It’s not banned but it’s definitely being ‘attacked’. Also Dutch MP Geert Wilders was banned from Great Britain for his stance of Islam. Old Churches converted into Mosques. Terrorist threats. Islamic only schools in Britain (some found to be teaching the extreme views). 84% of Citizen applications come from third world countries (most with Islamic populations). Third worlders also have higher fertility rates than white people anywhere, so the face of Britain will change over time and this is how the BNP has been able to capitalize on these issues.

    I don’t support the BNP as a party, just wish Conservatives would have more balls to tackle these issues.

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  19. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @EverlastingFire

    The Conservatives are very. very anxious about coming across as the ‘nasty party’, as they were characterised up until maybe just three-odd years ago, where there was still some stigma to expressing support for the party in public. (I think it was around the time Bob Geldof gave his support to David Cameron that people began opening up again).

    Anyway, my point is that the moment conservatives start voicing strident views on multiculturalism, their opponents quickly dismiss them as racists. In the last general election, Michael Howard campaigned on immigration and it went down like a lead balloon.

    David Cameron is still trying to figure out what will win the public over, and every so often they fly a kite, buy it’s unlikely they will be talking about multiculturalism soon.

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  20. Countess of Cleavage (27 comments) says:

    St George was a middle eastern import, who only figured prominently in England around the time of the crusades. Rather more fitting for the new immigrants that you would think. In fact an ideal choice, who in Arab culture is al-Khadr as he is known

    Wikipedia says . St George is the patron Saint of Aragon, Catalonia, England, Ethiopia, Georgia, Greece, Lithuania, Palestine, Portugal, and Russia, as well as the cities of Amersfoort, Beirut, Bteghrine, Cáceres (Spain), Ferrara, Freiburg, Genoa, Ljubljana, Gozo, Pomorie, Qormi, Lod, Barcelona and Moscow, as well as a wide range of professions, organizations, and disease sufferers.

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  21. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    St George of Beirut has a ring to it

    Wicked username, Countess of Cleavage, BTW :-)

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  22. coolas (115 comments) says:

    Does anyone remember Enoch Powell & his ‘rivers of blood speech’ warning that ‘coloured’ immigration could destroy the UK.
    He was vilified and it ended his political career. But in retrospect he was prophetic event hough Islam was not an issue then and he was talking about African immigrants. Now it’s the Pakastaniis who are the hyped up Isalmic threat. They’re treated badly in the UK and I can understand young men wanting to fight back. I got kidney punched by the Polis one night in Glasgow – stopped for a random drug search. The cop called me a ‘fuckin Paki’ but when I said I was Maori he apologised & wanted to talk about the All Blacks. The UK has bought this upon themselves. So many racist whites. As for the BNP – they should be banned – there’s no place in a civilised society for a political party which aspouses racial hatred.

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  23. EverlastingFire (286 comments) says:

    I suppose that’s the price western countries pay for creating such PC societies. ‘Freedom of speech’ – as long as it doesn’t offend anyone.

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  24. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @coolas

    If you banned the BNP, it would only make them stronger.

    I have also seen -with my own eyes – the UK police beat up on Pakistani kids, which is very unpleasant. These kids need some ‘purchase’ into a British identity which is not being provided by any of the major parties. This could be why there is less integration than there was in previous generations, and might also be an argument against multiculturalism.

    But the BNP’s rhetoric isn’t overtly hateful. They couch everything in ambiguous language, and talk about racial separatism. You have to scrape beneath the surface to see all the ugliness at play.

    One positive to come out of their seats in the euro parliament is that they now have to come up with some kind of policy besides the rhetoric. And that’s when everyone will see what they are really about.

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  25. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    Don’t like something just ban it, that will make the problem go away am i right?

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  26. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @Banana Llama

    Not necessarily, but the BNP poses a conundrum for fans of democracy – the prospect of electing a party which would do away with elections. Or using their right to free speech to curtail the same rights in others. It makes the head hurt :-P

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  27. TCrwdb (242 comments) says:

    ” As for the BNP – they should be banned – there’s no place in a civilised society for a political party which aspouses racial hatred.”

    Fortunately NZ doesn’t have any race-based political parties…

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  28. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    ” The answer is not to stop immigration of course.”

    Maybe not, and one reason is that its far too late for that.

    But what is the answer?

    When those not so enamoured of “multi-culturalism” attempted to warn of the social chaos that would result, we were irrationaly slandered by kneejerk liberals as racists.

    Now its too late.

    Another major foul up thanks to the brain dead liberals.

    Its never been about race. It was always about culture. As usual, the liberals never had the intelligence capability to understand that. They insisted that European culture be used as a door mat by every other culture. All cultures are equal was their mantra.

    Now the lesson they’re learning, at the expense of social cohesion, is that like most of the left’s mantras, it was nonsense.

    Now, who knows what the solution could be. Whatever it may be, its not going to be as easy as stopping immigration.

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  29. sweetd (125 comments) says:

    I think you have to have lived in England to understand the anger towards muslims in UK, in the way that many don’t accept the new country, but openly hate it yet happy to take all that it offers in the way of housing and monies. There is is the very real anger that is in the middle classes, and when I lived there (london, 99-05) was talked about with acceptance of BNP and growing support. For the first time in my life (mid 30’s) I can easily see how a strong figure like (someone I won’t mention for fear for evoking some internet law) could gather the strength of the middle classes towards another ethnic group. I see similar parallels with middle class england now with germany 1930’s. Coupled with a recession/depression and a war on muslims, I can easily see the EU breaking apart, or at the very least member states pulling away, once the see the folly of a continent wide economic and foreign policy.

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  30. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “The problem in the UK is their hopelessly out of date electoral system.”

    Yeah, but funny thing is, there was never anything wrong until the left started losing.

    You think we’re that stupid we fall for that crap??

    Get a life commie, and peddle your half wit propaganda elsewhere.

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  31. EverlastingFire (286 comments) says:

    TCrwdb – Good point. We should clear out our own backyard of socially acceptable race-based policies, racist seats and the racist party before we can take any moral high ground.

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  32. Viking2 (11,484 comments) says:

    Same problem in Holland. 50% of the population are now Muslim. The Dutchies are not amused. Estimated 3 million there without the right to be. Friend had a letter from his sister last week telling him about it.

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  33. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @Viking2, “…in Holland 50% of the population are now Muslim. ”

    I don;t know where you pulled that figure from, but It’s wrong.

    It’s more like 5 or 6% [according to the Dutch census]

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  34. georgedarroch (317 comments) says:

    Same problem in Holland. 50% of the population are now Muslim.

    What? Do you have evidence for that claim? Islam makes up 6%, you scaremongering idiot.

    @ephemera – snap!

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  35. goonix (140 comments) says:

    Dey turk errr jeobs!

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  36. tvb (4,430 comments) says:

    The BNP is strongest where the Labour Party was once strongest, so we know where that party’s roots really lie. Scratch beneath the surface of the Labour Party and there is something as ugly as it gets.

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  37. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “The Dutchies are not amused.”

    They voted for it. Even had one of their politicians who stood against it (a homosexual) assasinated, and still did nothing.

    Gutless brainwashed liberal sheep.

    Led by the nose by traitorous politicians and a treasonist media.

    If they lose their culture and their country, its because they gave it away. More than that, they got down on their knees, and begged for it to be taken.

    Reckon NZ might learn anything from that??

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  38. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @tvb

    You seem to be implying that the BNP is a faction of the Labour Party. If you watch the news, you will see this is not true.

    The BNP Is humiliating Labour right this minute.

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  39. IMF (5 comments) says:

    The headline of the post is likely to be wrong. Labour should beat UKIP. Why? Because Scotland is the one area to declare and politics is different there. Labour should get around 20% in Scotland against around 5% for UKIP. That should just be enough to get Labour into second. Still a terrible result for them though.

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  40. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    If 6% of the population vote for a fascist and racist party like the BNP, then democracy determines (or should determine) that they get 6% of the representation.

    It is up to the rest of us, who believe in participatory democratic politics (whatever their colour), rather than authoritarian politics to keep our political parties clean enough that the fascists and racists never get beyond that level of representation and are never allowed to become part of a Government.

    Whatever Greens and Nats and Labs and even (swallow hard) Actoids may think of each other, the prospect of a genuinely fascist party (the “Family” Party Destiny Church offshoot comes close to one, and NZFirst had real potential to become one) gaining any share of power is far more terrifying than whatever combination of the four main parties may have to work together to govern.

    Hey, that would be the one circumstance I would even support the Greens going into coalition with National and Act if the worse evil was a genuinely fascist party being in Government. Fortunately for New Zealand (unlike Britain with its BNP) I hope and expect the Greens here will never have to.

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  41. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    Redbaiter said: If they lose their culture and their country, its because they gave it away. More than that, they got down on their knees, and begged for it to be taken. Reckon NZ might learn anything from that??

    Yes, but not what you think ‘baiter. DPF made a rule today re the use of the term “national socialist” in response to Jack’s comment on another thread, but I understand (hope) that related only to comparisons of the Nats to national socialist ideology.

    At risk of incurring demerits, ‘baiter, I would suggest that your comments I have quoted, and earlier ones on this thread, are completely consistent with national socialist ideology. You are no libertarian – your comments reveal you as nothing less than a culturally and religiously intolerant bigot – and we all know where that leads us.

    Your real name is not Winston, is it?

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  42. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @toad,

    Thankfully this country lacks the ‘blood and soil’ nationalism European nations like to indulge in from time to time.

    Like the BNP, the Destiny church rely exclusively on personalities and grand visions – without a single page of actual ‘research unit’ policy.

    If you remember when Pauline Hanson gained popularity in Australia, her success was due to a massive cult of personality. The moment she came up with a 2% tax proposal which could be dismantled by any 5th form economics student, her electability evaporated. The larger parties began to co-opt her rhetoric, and she became neutralised.

    This is likely to be what is to happen in the UK. Expect the parties to try and shut the BNP and UKIP out by mimicing their stuff.

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  43. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “It is up to the rest of us, who believe in participatory democratic politics (whatever their colour), rather than authoritarian politics”

    Get the hell outta here.

    How many articles on your ban list is there at the moment?

    Rank damn hypocrite. With your determination to shape markets through legislation, pick favourites and pander to phoney environmental causes, (like Gore who has parleyed his way to a $100 million dollar fortune with his lies) you’re the biggest damn fascist of them all.

    How can you have the utter damn gall to speak such sanctimonious bullshit??

    …and don’t include me in your “us”. You can take your big government bullshit and shove it.

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  44. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “At risk of incurring demerits, ‘baiter, I would suggest that your comments I have quoted, and earlier ones on this thread, are completely consistent with national socialist ideology.”

    Really?? Seeing you started it toad, let me point out that there are others who seek to difffer.

    From the American Building Industry Association magazine 08/03/08-

    “The German Nazi party expressed many of the ecological refrains we hear today. Nazis were the vanguard of conservationism—they sought to remedy the increasing alienation of people from the natural world, deforestation, urban sprawl, the destruction of ecosystem balance, the extinction of species and the indiscriminate slaughter of animals. Hitler himself was a sometime vegetarian and an animal lover, and the Nazi government implemented some of the first laws protecting animal rights.

    The Nazis also blamed capitalism for destroying the European continent and believed environmental holism was the solution. They investigated sustainable forestry and institutionalized organic farming to advance experimental homeopathic cures and medicines. Nazi bio-engineers were also very concerned about construction maintaining harmony with the natural landscape—the autobahn freeway in Germany was designed by Nazis with the utmost ecological care in mind and presented as a way to bring Germans closer to nature. The Nazis also came up with far reaching land use restrictions and centralized environmental planning for the same purposes, and were very zealous about protecting wetlands and other ecological sensitive areas. Thus green building and smart growth ideas are not something new.

    What environmentalists offer today, instead of the racist German National Socialism that defined the Nazi party, is an international environmental socialism, an amalgam of Nazism and communism—an international environmental socialism with a centralized planning scheme.”

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  45. AG (1,827 comments) says:

    So, reddy … does this mean you are an environmentalist?

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  46. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @redbaiter.

    A builder’s newsletter disagrees? Surely Toad deserves a more authoritative telling off?

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  47. AG (1,827 comments) says:

    Also, isn’t a builder’s newsletter part of the leftist, elitist, communist, totalitarian MSM? If not, why not. Discuss.

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  48. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Go away effy, you speak a rhetoric that is uninformed and two decades out of date.

    Actually, you’re so fucken uninformed that if facts were bananas, you’d couldn’t get a fuck in a monkey whorehouse.

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  49. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    …two decades out of date [!!!]

    …rhetoric [!!!]

    I must have missed something.

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  50. AG (1,827 comments) says:

    Yep. Very 1989. The ideological equivalent of shoulder pads and leather ties.

    I think that’s what is meant,

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  51. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “…two decades out of date [!!!]”

    Effy, maybe you don’t understand the comments section. You’re actually mean to make some kind of point, or shut the fuck up.

    What I’m trying to say is that you speak the snivelling pandering sycophantic rhetoric that has underpinned the left’s fifty year assault on traditional Jeudo/ Christian European culture and that culture’s commitment to individual freedom and democracy. Sad thing is you don’t even know that’s what you’re doing.

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  52. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    ‘baiter, link to some references if you really want people to even start to believe your assertions. And so I can debunk them, because you’re doing the usual (far) right wing troll exercise of putting up a whole crock of shit, referencing it to nothing, and hoping some will stick.

    Whatever the evidence you come up with, at least I am not into the cultural intolerance you spewed with If they lose their culture and their country, its because they gave it away. More than that, they got down on their knees, and begged for it to be taken. Reckon NZ might learn anything from that??

    Go down your path ‘baiter, and all of us not of Maori ancestry need to fuck off somewhere else don’t we? Your assertion, not mine, but guess you didn’t think properly about where it would lead in this country.

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  53. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @AG

    That’s good, because 1989 was a golden era for monkey whorehouses

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  54. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Go down your path ‘baiter, and all of us not of Maori ancestry need to fuck off somewhere else don’t we? Your assertion, not mine, but guess you didn’t think properly about where it would lead in this country.”

    Earlier today and on another thread, I posted a link to this video-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO214IFRW1M

    Watch it (its only 58 seconds, just right for your TV dinner attention span) and learn something. You’re the racist, because you think skin colour is more important than ideas.

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  55. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @Redbaiter

    You offer no qualification to your assertions, which is why everyone thinks you are a lightweight with a big mouth.

    What’s the phrase? All swing, no dick?

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  56. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    ‘baiter said: …the snivelling pandering sycophantic rhetoric that has underpinned the left’s fifty year assault on traditional Jeudo/ Christion European culture and that culture’s commitment to individual freedom and democracy.

    Ah, you’ve just confirmed I was right!

    Here you are, ‘baiter, again asserting racial and religious cultural supremacy. Jews, Christians, Europeans good – everyone else bad. Sorry, but every time you comment you sink further into the cesspit the fascist bigots wallow in.

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  57. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “which is why everyone thinks”

    Speak for yourself. Assuming to speak for everybody is the characteristic of an ill mannered ill raised uncouth thug.

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  58. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Here you are, ‘baiter, again asserting racial and religious cultural supremacy.”

    OK toad, here’s a chance to make a name for yourself.

    What is your favourite culture?

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  59. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    “…ill mannered ill raised uncouth thug.”

    The prostitutes at the monkey whorehouse would beg to differ. To them I am charm personified.

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  60. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    Toad, pick Aryan! pick Aryan!

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  61. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “To them I am charm personified.”

    Natural parental affection for their off spring.

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  62. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    Go on Toad, we know you wanna sing Preussens Gloria while marching across the harbor bridge.

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  63. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    “Natural parental affection for their off spring.”

    You are just too easy, Redbaiter. What was that about being ill-mannered?

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  64. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    sorry redbaiter, I’ll answer that for you.

    Blah blah commie blah blah leftist blah snivelling rhetoric.

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  65. s.russell (1,642 comments) says:

    Actually, it is all a socialist plot. Gordon Brown’s plan is to destroy the Labour Party, purging it of all the moderate MPs elected since 1983 in marginal or vauguely middle class constituencies. After the elction the only people left will be the socialists in ultra-safe Labour seats, who will then be able to take control and delete the “New” from Labour – returning it to its proper socialist roots.

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  66. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @s.russell

    “returning it to its proper socialist roots.”

    So never to be elected ever again, then? :-P

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  67. bwakile (757 comments) says:

    “Hey, that would be the one circumstance I would even support the Greens going into coalition with National and Act if the worse evil was a genuinely fascist party being in Government. Fortunately for New Zealand (unlike Britain with its BNP) I hope and expect the Greens here will never have to.”

    Toad you are seriously deluded.
    The only party that would ever contemplate “going into Coalition” with the Greens is Labour. And they would only do that because they needed your scrawny arses to form a government. As NZ showed first last Nov and now Britian is showing, Labour are last centuries has beens, an irrelevent pack of idiots in today’s world. Which puts you water melons even further up shit creek. You are destined to remain in opposition until extinction. Of course that won’t actually worry your beloved MP’s too much because opposition still pays.

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  68. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @bwkile

    Be fair, Toad gave a hypothetical scenario of a fascistic party getting into power. Should that ever happen in NZ, the political landscape will have changed so much we cannot foresee anything.

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  69. reid (16,491 comments) says:

    This is yet again another punch and judy example. Tony set it up, Gordon knocks it down, now wait for a great white conservative to leap into the fray with a catchy phrase like “Hope” or “Yes, we can.”

    And the sheeple will vote for them and think it will make it all better.

    Sad, isn’t it.

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  70. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “now wait for a great white conservative”

    Name one.

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  71. reid (16,491 comments) says:

    Give it time, RB.

    Don’t you know how it works?

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  72. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Name one.

    Go on.

    Stop the issue dodging bullshit and name one.

    Back up your mainstream media driven extreme left rhetoric for once.

    Name one “great white conservative”.

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  73. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    ” that culture’s commitment to individual freedom and democracy.”

    You made a comment yesterday that told us a lot about your commitment to the above redbaiter.

    “They MM [mainstream media] are merely the mouthpiece of a corrupt and self serving elitist class that is at war with NZ’s middle class. These so called journalists will be hung from lamp posts when the revolution comes, as partners in crime to corrupt governments, and that time is getting closer every day. I can’t wait to see their corpses swinging in the wind, with every two lamp posts supporting a twirling politician separated by one mainstream media “journalist” with their neck stretched to the maximum.”

    I think that tells us all we need to know about your “culture”

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  74. Jcw (95 comments) says:

    Whats really ironic is when I was living in the middle east some of the expats I mingled with showed a lack of tolerance/willingness to integrate/respect for the countries culture that directly parallels what I see in some immigrants to NZ and other western countries. And likewise I can a similar anger towards those expats/immigrants from the “natives”.

    Of course that is an oversimplifcation fo teh many issues, but still I guess some aspects of mild xenophobia are universal to all people of all cultures.

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  75. reid (16,491 comments) says:

    “Name one. Go on.”

    What happens if I don’t, RB?

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  76. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    You go on the list for a lampost I think Reid.

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  77. getstaffed (9,186 comments) says:

    For those discussing Muslim populations in Europe upthread a bit… check out this vid. It profiles, albeit briefly, the decline in birthrates attributable to western cultures offset by huge increases in Muslim birthrates

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  78. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    For goodness sake getstaffed, does that video remind you of any other sort of propaganda about “aliens” invading Europe?

    Try this for comparison (then hang your head in shame I would think)

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  79. reid (16,491 comments) says:

    “You go on the list for a lampost I think Reid.”

    I hope I’m already on it, sonic.

    I’ve got my sign made up and everything.

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  80. Kingi (142 comments) says:

    hahahahaha….here they go again, with their bashing of minority ethnicities. Maori of course being a particular target.

    It’s so hard for the right wing to think parties like the BNP which sit on the far right, can be racist and on the same side as them! But unfortunately..ITS TRUE.

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  81. Jcw (95 comments) says:

    Kingi: what on earth makes BNP right wing?

    As far as I can tell their only policies are anti-minorities, no mention of anything else.

    What on earth does that have to do with a right wing party like Act (which is certainly not anti-islamic/sematism/homosexuality etc.)?

    Nothing in common with National either, not that I can tell.

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  82. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    We’re lucky it is just a sad little fantasy Reid, but one to remember the next time he rants on.

    “what on earth makes BNP right wing”

    Lets see, they hate gays, want women to stay at home and work, love the royal family, want to restore the british empire, wish to restore the death penalty, despise the left as “trendy social workers” want asylum seekers deported, wave the union jack and sing rule Brittania.

    Hard to present them as wild eyed trots really.

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  83. Kingi (142 comments) says:

    Well JCW it seems pretty clear to me that this despicable BNP party advocates AGAINST certian groups simply because of their race, or their sexuality, or their gender. I admit my knowledge of their policies is limited (Neo-Nazi parties have policies?) however its clear to me where this group of intolerant, bigoted people sit on the political spectrum…and I can tell you its nowhere near me.

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  84. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Lets see, they hate gays,”

    Lie- see http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090424063206AAGFfpa

    “want women to stay at home and work,”

    Nonsensical and contradictory, However, if some people hold the view that raising a family is a better option for women than selling real estate, so what? They’re entitled to that opinion. The BNP has plenty of woman supporters.

    “love the royal family,”

    There is a good argument for having a head of state who is theoretically above the political fray.

    “want to restore the british empire,”

    Another lie, but even so, the British Empire traditionally had far more respect for freedom than your socialist “nirvanas” with thier collectivist tyranny and mass murders.

    “wish to restore the death penalty,”

    A view shared by many outside the BNP but desperately discredited by a combination of political, academic and media elite.

    “despise the left as “trendy social workers””

    Far too restrained.

    “Want asylum seekers deported,”

    Lie number three. Genuine asylum seekers are welcome, it is the widespread abuse of the privilege that the BNP stands against.

    “wave the union jack”

    Yes of course, it should of course be the emblem of the fist and the rose, and they should sing “The Internationale”.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International

    Despicable little commie liar, coward and hate merchant.

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  85. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “I’ve got my sign made up and everything.”

    What does it say?

    “Here, twisting in the cold wind of revolution, hangs the rotting corpse of a red faced blusterer and fool who willingly propogated the lies of communists and collectivists, a waffler who could not back up his smears with truth, and sought to smokescreen that fact with piffle and drivel”

    If so, well done, and very accurate. When the day comes, I hope you wear it with pride.

    You could have at least given it a shot. John Redwood would have been a reasonable attempt. I have always quite liked him, and might even try to save him if he is ever selected for the rope.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Redwood

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  86. racer1 (352 comments) says:

    “ephemera
    @Banana Llama

    Not necessarily, but the BNP poses a conundrum for fans of democracy – the prospect of electing a party which would do away with elections. Or using their right to free speech to curtail the same rights in others. It makes the head hurt ”

    Strangely enough these are exactly the same problems we face putting redbaiter in charge

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  87. Murray M (455 comments) says:

    Kingi is there a political party in NZ which directs most if not all of it’s energies into securing preferential treatment for members of it’s “race”? If there is, then isn’t this party somewhat racist in it’s outlook? Isn’t this outlook similair to what the BNP stand for?

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  88. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @Murray M

    I agree, but the Maori party would argue that in Britain the indigenous community are in the majority and enjoy overwhelming cultural dominance.

    The BNP cite the imaginary statistics which have been used on this very thread (Holland 50% Muslim) to try and convince people that white people will soon be a minority. This is obviously laughable, if you look at who runs the government and business in the UK, but it is the only way the BNP can achieve the sort of political capital the maori party has.

    I agree that the Maori party is indeed somewhat racist – just listen to Hone Harawira – but I’m sure they allow non-maori members, don’t mind intermarriage, nor advocate white people being thrown out of the country en mass.

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  89. Murray M (455 comments) says:

    “nor advocate white people being thrown out of the country en mass.”
    Turia anybody?

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  90. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    Really? I must plead ignorance, having not been in NZ this past decade!

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  91. WraithX (283 comments) says:

    bearhunter said: “He was Turkish after all.”

    No he wasn’t – he was from Nicomedia (which is now in the country called Turkey which did not exist at the time). Nicomedia was, in fact, the Eastern (and most senior) capital of the Roman Empire at the time that St George was born. At that time Islam had not yet been invented.

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  92. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Turia anybody?”

    Yes, the racist hate monger who compared colonisation with the holocaust, and who now sits with National.

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  93. EverlastingFire (286 comments) says:

    @ephemera

    “I agree, but the Maori party would argue that in Britain the indigenous community are in the majority and enjoy overwhelming cultural dominance.”

    So you think the BNP would be seen as acceptable if white Britons were a minority? I think it’s more of a double standard against those of European extraction.

    “to try and convince people that white people will soon be a minority”

    Fertility rates and current immigration trends will make this a reality within 60 years in Britain. It’s not about convincing people, it’s a fact.

    As I said before, we should clear out our own racist shit in parliament before talking down to any other country or foreign political party.

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  94. Rakaia George (313 comments) says:

    Jesus.H.Christ.On.A.Bicycle. The Monster Raving Loony Party beat Labour in St Ives, Cambridgshire. I can hardly type for laughing (thanks Devil’s Kitchen).

    http://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/council/democracy/elections/elections2009/candidatesandresults/division.htm?division=st_ives

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  95. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @EverlastingFire

    If white Britons were a minority, I don’t know if they would be seen to be acceptable. All I know is that NZ and UK have different political contexts.

    You say that white people will be a minority in UK within 60 years under current birthrates and immigration trends. You are looking at these figures in a vacuum. 60 years before now there was no national health service, divorce law reform, internet, commercial air travel – all these things which have made the world a different place.

    In 60 years time, non-white people in the UK will be 5th, maybe 6th generation descendants of immigrants. We cannot say for sure how Britain or its birthrate will change – after two generations, projections turn to ‘chaos’. So ‘preserving white culture’ is an attitude based on gut feeling, not real-world politick.

    You said “…talking down to any other country or foreign political party.”

    I have spent the past decade in the UK, and feel perfectly comfortable talking down to the BNP. They’re morons.

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  96. Murray M (455 comments) says:

    “I have spent the past decade in the UK, and feel perfectly comfortable talking down to the BNP. They’re morons.”
    And so are the Maori party and the majority of thier voters. The stats speak for themselves.

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  97. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    Maori are inferior beings Murray M, I can see why you like the BNP.

    “Fertility rates and current immigration trends will make this a reality within 60 years in Britain”

    Source?

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  98. EverlastingFire (286 comments) says:

    ephemera – We’re purely talking population numbers not inventions. The whole of Europe has an average fertility rate of 1.6, not enough to sustain a culture or a people. I don’t see how this will escalate above 2.1 in 60 years, and I’ve never read anything to suggest it will. ‘preserving white culture’ is wanting to protect what they know. If anything, more of these luxuries that will be invented in the next 60 years will lower the rates even further. I see white people as very driven for economic success compared to other people, that’s part of why we’ve seen the decline, having children is seen as a burden to economic success.

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  99. bearhunter (853 comments) says:

    “I see white people as very driven for economic success compared to other people, that’s part of why we’ve seen the decline, having children is seen as a burden to economic success.”

    Hasn’t hurt the many thousands of non-white businessmen in Britain then. If, as the BNP have said in the past, all these furriners are coming to Britain and stealing all the jobs, why can’t you find a white shopkeeper who is willing to keep his corner shop open 17 hours a day?

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  100. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    Bearhunter don’t be a racist dick you are no better than those you attempt to ridicule.

    Everlasting, it would only take one generation to increase the population five fold.

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  101. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @EverlastingFire

    I would like to take your word on what you are saying, but could you give us a link to your source on average fertility rates, etc?

    I want us to be on the same page.

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  102. bearhunter (853 comments) says:

    Banana Lama, at least read what I wrote. What is racist about what I have said? The poster said European birthrates were substantially lower than non-European birthrates and this was because economic success was more important than children to Europeans. I disputed that argument, pointing out that there are several thousand successful non-European businessmen in Britain alone and I was commending them on their industry. I fail to see where I tried to ridicule anyone except those who believe the old lie of foreigners coming over and stealing jobs. I’m not a racist, I’ve seen first-hand what mistrust between ethnic groups can do to communities.

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  103. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    EverlastingFire

    I can’t find any information in those links about how birthrates sustain a culture, nor projections of Britain’s ethnic makeup in 2070

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  104. EverlastingFire (286 comments) says:

    Bearhunter – STFU, I said it was part of it. Europeans obviously have different values, culture and religions (at least to the usual invaders) to non-Europeans. Just because a foreigner works in a European country doesn’t mean they will act just like them, as we’ve seen. Your statement wasn’t even relevant to the discussion.

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  105. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    So you where just joking around when you posted, why can’t you find a white shopkeeper who is willing to keep his corner shop open 17 hours a day?

    Good to know.

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  106. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    EverlastingFire,

    I followed those links, but there was no information concerning British ethnic projections nor how birthrates sustain a culture. Those were the two issues at the crux of your point.

    If I can find out more about the relationship between birthrate and culture, and the makeup of Britain’s population in 2070, then I might learn something today!

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  107. bearhunter (853 comments) says:

    BL – what I meant was that the work ethic of the average English shopkeeper is somewhat lacking in comparison with say the average Indian shopkeeper. When I lived in the UK I loved knowing there was a shop open late if I needed one; that was often not the case when the majority of shops were run by “native” English and would shut at 7pm, if indeed they stayed open that long. However, I’ve been told to shut up by someone who clearly knows more about these things than I, so I will say good evening and head for the pub, where I might find a conversation worth having.

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  108. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    Everlastign fire, it might help your case somewhat if you stopped posting neo-nazi propaganda.

    As for predicting to 2060, that assumes trends today will continue for the next 50 years, which any demographer could tell you is laughable.

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  109. EverlastingFire (286 comments) says:

    And whats to suggest they won’t? The governments are obviously doing fuck all otherwise the BNP would have 0 seats. Your posts in this thread, just like in other threads are full of failed commie ideology.

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  110. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    I see someone’s true colours are showing through nicely Everlasting Fire, when do we get to the bit when you start shouting Sieg Heil and telling us the holocaust was a myth.

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  111. EverlastingFire (286 comments) says:

    ephemera – 84% of citizenship accepted by the UK is from third world countries – Pakistan, Bangladesh, India, Afghanistan are the main countries IRC. All with higher birth rates than the UK’s 1.6, which has remained the same for the last 9 years. The video states that 1.9 fertility rate for a culture is impossible to reverse, this was not debunked by your link. To suggest that overtime as these people have more kids than Europeans in Europe, and more immigrants that flood in won’t have an effect on their culture is stupid. We’ve even seen this with Maoris in NZ as their population % has increased faster over recent decades, there has been more of their culture “pushed” on NZ, it’s a numbers game as far as culture goes from what I see. If you can prove that the BNP’s claim is and they won’t be a minority in 60 years with current trends, I’d be interested to see that too.

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  112. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @EverlastingFire

    To find out how birthrates effect culture requires more than a bullet point on a youtube video.

    To make such an assertion, there should be some kind of reasoning – like a study, an academic paper, a conference – something to go on. A narrator on a partisan video saying ‘a culture needs 1.6% to survive” is not enough.

    Otherwise your argument is that this is the case because you heard it on YouTube, or a political party told you. That wouldn’t get you very high marks in a high school essay.

    Please realise I am not trying to attack your beliefs, only point out that I have no way of agreeing or disagreeing with them when there appears to be no authoratative literature for me to make my mind up with.

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  113. EverlastingFire (286 comments) says:

    Well we’ll see as time goes on. It’s a fact that the white British population is decreasing and others are increasing. I believe this will contribute to a decline in culture as times goes on or at least force them to change to adjust. I think we’d know fuck all about Maori culture if fertility rates were reversed, they’ve had to modify their culture since colonisation. In other words, I believe it to be all a numbers game.

    I haven’t seen a high academic paper from some know it all with arguments for or against how numbers effect culture, but perhaps we will in the future.

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  114. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @EverlastingFire

    It isn’t a case of a ‘know it all’ with a paper, it is about making sure we base our opinions on as best quality and widest range of sources as we can. Otherwise we are in danger of simply parroting whatever we have heard at the watercooler as a matter of fact.

    I will agree that we will indeed see as time goes on, but any prediction of the world 60 years in the future had better include flying cars, or else I want my money back :-P

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  115. Murray M (455 comments) says:

    “Maori are inferior beings Murray M, …” Sonic these are your words not mine. I called the members of the party and the majority (ie, not all) of the Maori party voters morons. It is you who are generalising in a condescending fashion. I think there are morons who vote for all political parties. Yourself being a classic example.

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  116. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    Murray M, I’ll leave it for others to judge the someone who defends the neo-nazis of the BNP by comparing them to the Maori party calling anyone a moron.

    Everlasting fire, cultures do change and adjust over 50 year periods, compare Britain in 1959 to today and you might get an idea.

    Or stick with the “OMG the evil muslims are breeding like rats and will kill us all!”

    Up to you really.

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  117. thehawkreturns (162 comments) says:

    When I started primary school in inner city Leicester 1967 – we were all white kids.
    The same primary school in a school photo from 1980 – less than a generation – there were none.

    It is a numbers game.

    Just like voting.

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  118. Murray M (455 comments) says:

    “OMG the evil muslims are breeding like rats and will kill us all!”
    Those words may just come back to bite you in the arse Sonic.

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  119. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    Oh look Murray M is also a believer in the vast muslim conspiracy, why am I not surprised?

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