Cowards
I blogged on Monday about how Whale Oil was seeking donations so he could win a charity auction (for Westpac Rescue Helicopter) for the prize of 90 minutes in a flight simulator with North Shore Mayor Andrew Williams. Cameron is a relentless critic of Williams, for those who don’t know.
Now this was great for the charity. It pushes up the value of the auction. Cameron was willing to go up to US$1,000 or NZ$1,500 – all of which would go to charity. He said if he was outbid he would donate the money regardless which meant if someone outbid him, the Westpac Rescue Helicopter could end up with more than NZ$3,000.
But in a fit of cowardice, Andrew Williams conspired with Trade Me to disallow bids from Cameron (and it seems from several other bidders), and the auction closed for just $150.
I’m disgusted at Trade Me that they remove valid bids, just because Andrew Williams did not like the bidder. That undermines their integrity greatly. And they helped rip the charity off also.
Williams looks ridiculous also. If Slater had won, Williams could have turned it into great PR – look at what I’m prepared to do for charity. Or if he really could not face the possibility, he should have got somone to outbid Cameron.
Now as it happens the Mayor’s daughter won the auction it seems at $150. And this was after several bids for higher than that were removed. So it looks even worse that they appear to have fixed who would win.
Aaron Bhatnagar blogs:
Slater would be a legitimate bidder, though clearly not one Williams would have appreciated. However, it was for a charity, so there ought to have been an element of goodwill about this. It’s not at all uncommon charity auctions have elements of prank or comical outcomes, but because it’s for charity, you tend to take it all in good humour. After all, Rodney Hide allowed himself to get his head shaved by Williams for charity not long ago.
Which makes the actions hypocritical also.
UPDATE: A reader has commented that the person listing an auction can blacklist or remove bids themselves, without any input from Trade Me. If this is correct, then Trade Me are not to blame. The villain then is Worldflight who acted with Williams to lower the amount donated to charity. There goes the brand.
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:06 am
Fairfax owns Trade Me right??
Is anyone surprised therefore by this cowardice and deceit??
Same old same old from the mainstream media.
This IMHO amounts to fraud and deception. Trade Me have severely damaged their own reputation, and if true, the North Shore mayor has no option but to resign after allegedly organising such a fix.
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:17 am
To be honest, given Whale’s state of mind one has to wonder if William’s personal safety would have been at risk. The guy is clearly not the most stable. Maybe Whale was looking for one last roll of the dice with the provocation defence.
[DPF: And that is 20 demerits.]
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:22 am
Those who have been reading my columns over the past year or so know that I’ve also had heaps of “issues” with TM.
My latest beef was about the million-dollar rort they’re perpetrating on some users and how, if you owe them just $0.01 you have no options but to pay them $10 to clear your account — even if you’re leaving the country and/or closing your account so never intend using TM again.
However, rather than just bitch about it (which I do), I am preparing a TM-killer site that I fully expect will go head-to-head with TM in the online auction marketplace, but with some unique features and some “outside the box” thinking that will make it far more than just another Zillion or TM-clone. This is online trading taken to the *next* level.
It also addresses the criticisms I have with the decline in the MSM’s standards.
Stay tuned… it won’t appear overnight but when it does, Mr Murdoch will *not* be happy with me
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:28 am
I vaguely recall that one of TM’s terms and conditions was that family members could not bid on your auctions.
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:49 am
# You may not bid on an auction that has been listed by a family member, flatmate, friend or any member that is personally known to you, in order to raise the price of that auction.
Is the condition, not sure this actually raised the price of the auction – however dodgy nonetheless.
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:53 am
Indeed David. I guess considering Whale’s (mutual) dislike for Williams, Williams had reason to be concerned, but as MAYOR he could have easily had turned this into a PR exercise. WO showed us he is real on CloseUp, so he’s not irrational by any means. In fact, the hour alone together probably would have resulted in at least a few hatchets being buried. Instead Williams’ conduct over the auction termination will now come under scrutiny. Not surprising really. This explains why he is polling less than 1% for the Auckland supermayor job…
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:56 am
Umm aardvark – Fairfax isn’t owned by Murdoch…
July 23rd, 2009 at 12:01 pm
So because Williams couldn’t sit with Whale Oil for a 90 minute flight session, the rescue helicopter misses out a big donation – they will however get the massive sum of $150.
How pathetic.
July 23rd, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Biblical “Clown” Behavior from the Mayor of North Shore. What a disgrace especially when it was for a charity as important as the Rescue helicopter.
July 23rd, 2009 at 12:05 pm
I’m not sure I could handle 90 minutes sitting next to Whale Oil.
July 23rd, 2009 at 12:05 pm
The last time I looked at the auction the top bid was $250, I think by the “thora3″ whose top bid is now showing as $81. Interestingly, her profile shows her as resident on the North Shore. There was also a bid at $200, and various answered and unanswered questions that have been expunged from the site. The whole conduct of the auction seems highly dodgy at best.
July 23rd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Trade Me has been going to dogs lately but this one takes the cake. Shame on you Trade Me..
July 23rd, 2009 at 12:30 pm
There is a human rights issue here which I consider that fairfax/Trademe were quite entitled to take into account. Being cooped up for one hour with a political enemy determined to make the most of it would be a ‘cruel and unusual’ punishment in terms of the Bill of Rights Act and various UN conventions. Even though I would be more ready to go in to bat for Whaleoil than the North Shore Mayor, I do not consider it something the Mayor shoud have to endure.
July 23rd, 2009 at 12:30 pm
@dpf “Andrew Williams conspired with Trade Me to disallow bids from Cameron”
in fairness to TradeMe David anyone can “blacklist” anyone from bidding on their auction without reason. It is outlined in their Terms & Conditions.
Presumably the C.O.C.B. must have asked the charity running the auction to blacklist Cameron’s account and remove his bids. While unethical it probably doesn’t contravene Trademe’s T & C’s.
Getting his daughter to bid on the auction probably does contravene TradeMe’s T& C’s.
@aardvark – good luck with taking on TradeMe – hope you have very deep pockets. You will need them. Telecom spent a gazillion dollars on Ferrit before pulling the plug on an online disaster.
I deal with Trademe on an almost daily basis and they are the most professional organisation I have ever worked with. No surprise they are so successful – far more successful than ebay.com.au in Australia.
July 23rd, 2009 at 12:44 pm
>>Umm aardvark – Fairfax isn’t owned by Murdoch…
I know, but he’s been so vocal about the effect of people “stealing” his news content and regularly directs his vitriol at bloggers — which means he won’t like one particular aspect of my TM-killer
July 23rd, 2009 at 1:01 pm
There is nothing stopping Cameron Slater still donating the amount he was prepared to bid. If he was genuine in his desire to help the Westpac rescue chopper that is what he should do.
In the meantime, Andrew Williams had every right to take steps to prevent a charity auction being turned into a vehicle for Cameron Slater to pursue one of his petty obsessive-compulsive vendettas.
July 23rd, 2009 at 1:05 pm
IIRC, if a bid of yours is removed by the auction owner, you are given the option of complaining to Trademe if you feel you have been unfairly treated. Conversely, if you wish to have a bid removed, you can request the auction owner to do so, although I do not believe that they are bound to comply. It would be interesting to know what happened to the bids in excess of $150, none of which originated from Whaleoil as far as I can tell.
July 23rd, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Until now I’ve never known this mayor from a bar of soap and never particularly had an opinion, me being from wellington and not remotely interested in JAFA local body politics, but with this feeble, low, and decietful act I actually care enough to dislike him
July 23rd, 2009 at 1:20 pm
The auction host can remove high bids, however they cannot modify responses to answered questions, delete answered questions or delete unanswered questions – only TradeMe staff can do that. There were at least 7 unanswered questions (hell I had one) and at least two answered question (about the flight being at night & a fax machine) were erased.
The whole thing reeks of collusion. I shall try & have a chat to Lewis (the organiser) when I go to do my celeb flight.
July 23rd, 2009 at 1:20 pm
You can tell a person by the company they keep, and the Westpac Rescue Helicopter Trust is as crooked as Williams. If only someone would follow the money and see who is profiting unscrupulously from the big rort.
July 23rd, 2009 at 1:32 pm
As I posted on Whales blog whilst I support Whales raising the money for the Trust why would he want top spend an hour in a helicopter simulator with Williams
Unless Whale was at the controls and knew how to fly the thing to keep Williams spewing all the time
July 23rd, 2009 at 2:51 pm
I wonder why Whale did not keep his powder dry. Wouldn’t it have been a lot more fun to let the auction run its course and then come out of the shadows at the end as the “successful” bidder?
I suppose he had to create some publicity first as part of the fundraising for his bid
July 23rd, 2009 at 2:58 pm
This is the big difference between blogs and the media. Bloggers can post anything they want saying “Shame on Trade Me, blah blah blah”, but the media has to actually fact check things to see if users of Trade Me are able to blacklist certain people from bidding on their auctions. One shoots from the hip and hopes they are right while the other takes the time to make sure they are right first.
July 23rd, 2009 at 3:04 pm
radar – you mean like the way the MSm ran the Burgess sob story yesterday?
July 23rd, 2009 at 3:10 pm
radar – you mean like the way the MSm ran the Burgess sob story yesterday?
Touche Brian.
July 23rd, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Jeez Radar, it almost looks like you didn’t factcheck that claim about the MSM and just shot from the hip and hoped you were right
July 23rd, 2009 at 3:25 pm
one day radar hopes to blog
July 23rd, 2009 at 3:27 pm
radar meets the inevitable troll end…..SPLAT……..
July 23rd, 2009 at 4:44 pm
The honourable thing for Williams now would be to donate from his own money to the Rescue Helicopter Trust the $1,500 – $3,000 which his Whale Oil-avoidance cost the Trust. (He could even claim a rebate of 33% of his donation against his personal tax.)
July 23rd, 2009 at 4:47 pm
While I think it vile for Andrew Williams to have committed a fraud against Whale and the Rescue Helicopter Trust, this is a much bigger issue which I think should be investigated. This is not about the $850 he diddled the trust out of; this is about the content of his character (thank you, Dr. King). If the COCB is willing to perpetrate a fraud of this nature simply because he’s afraid of spending 90 minutes with Whale, what depths could he plumb when it *really* mattered? I mean I have no doubt trying to match wits with Whale for 10 minutes, let alone 90, is enough to get this moron wetting the bed, but seriously when the poor sadsacks on the North Shore get rid of him, this fuckwit could easily become a leftie immigration consultant! If he had any spine whatever he would apologise unreservedly to Whale, the Rescue Helicopter Trust, TradeMe and his daughter for implicating her in this fraud. I wonder, were I to pen a letter to the editor of the North Shore Times Advertiser, would it be published? Then he would resign. But no, he will doubtless try to get Rob Pitney (a good guy, by the way) to invent some spin to get him out of the shitter.
What a shame we don’t have an Independent Commission Against Corruption!
July 23rd, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Boy, they do strange things in Auckland.
July 23rd, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Whaleoil ought to take the moral high ground and donate $1,000 anyway, outshining Williams’ publicity for his auction and showing Westpac Helicopters who has the purer motives.
July 23rd, 2009 at 7:48 pm
I had a bitch to Trademe about this as it looks really bad and brings into question the intergrity of their auction system…
Here is their reply…
Dear XXXXXXXX,
Thanks for contacting us.
We did remove bids from one trader. We watch high profile auctions closely, primarily to protect them from bogus bids. In this instance, we saw bids placed by a brand new trader. We attempted to contact the trader to verify their authenticity, but found that they’d provided a fake phone number. At that point, because the auction was due to close within an hour or so, we removed their bids
If you have further questions regarding this issue please reply and we will answer your email as soon as possible.
Regards,
XXXXXXX
(oh, and BTW those aren’t kisses at the bottom)
I don’t really think this clarifies the situation any further and they completely ignored the point raised about who won the auction – something that’s not hard to work out. It’s in breach of their own rules to sell to someone at the same address, their term is “shill bidding” if someone is at the same address it requires a huge suspension of belief to claim there was no collusion going on.
It appears in this situation Trademe actually assisted in “shill bidding”.
Neither the Mayor or Trademe come out of this looking good.
July 23rd, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Ardvark said…
I am preparing a TM-killer site that I fully expect will go head-to-head with TM in the online auction marketplace,
Good luck Ardvark, but I think that it is a huge huge task for you to try & undo Trade-me. The technology is beatable, no doubt about it, but the brand name is what’s hard to beat. See, Microsoft researchers had beaten Google algorithmic-wise for search engine accuracy, over recent years , but people never abandoned Google to migrate to Microsoft’s search engine in massive numbers. The reason is that Google has got the search brand in people’s minds.
Anyway, if you want to have an informal chat about what you’re doing, then I can point you out to various algorithms that are applicable to online auctions. I have no experience in online auctions development, but I am well versed in algorithms that are being used in online auction system, because I do use these algorithms myself but in a different domain applications. There are tons of computing papers (peer review journals) that have been published on online auction systems .See, mathematical computing is universal. Example, the algorithms that are being used today for text search engines are also being used in evaluating risks & pricing of financial assets (stocks, derivatives, forex, fixed interest, etc) and also a physicist can use them to model fluid flow (fluid dynamic), or etc. Their applications (numerical algorithms) are almost limitless. Most people don’t know that Google founders Page/Brin derived PageRank (the Google algorithm) via a technique originated in thermo-dynamic & fluid dynamic, ie, old math but new application. Those same techniques are applicable in online auctions because I have seen some publications of their use there.
Are you contactable?
July 23rd, 2009 at 8:55 pm
comsumist (32) 1 0 Says:
July 23rd, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Regards,
XXXXXXX
(oh, and BTW those aren’t kisses at the bottom)
ROFLMAO!
July 24th, 2009 at 5:28 am
what I meant is that I used XXXX’s to blank out name, then realised it looked like kisses, and TM isn’t that friendly!
July 24th, 2009 at 8:48 am
We ran into the same problem when I listed the Fitzsimmons EcoFirendly Defolitation Kit – a box of matches after she and her hubby torched a block of scrub during a fire ban.
Four people paid for the privilage of phoning Trademe and getting six different answers, all of them untrue because I harrased them untill they admitted they had been asked by a “high profile individual” to remove the auction.
July 24th, 2009 at 9:00 am
Whale’s ‘chip in’ raised $US430 or $NZ620, so where’s the other $NZ1000? DPF says he has “NZ$1,500″ for charity.
July 24th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Ummm, his own pocket?.