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	<title>Comments on: The S92A proposal</title>
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	<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html</link>
	<description>DPF&#039;s Kiwiblog - Fomenting Happy Mischief since 2003</description>
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		<title>By: kiki</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-584343</link>
		<dc:creator>kiki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 12:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-584343</guid>
		<description>http://www.voxy.co.nz/national/internet-filtering-lead/5/18541

So much noise but so quite?

If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.

This may not be connected to copy right but an unpublished list and tracking

You invent a weapon that you and your buddies may-not use but it will be eventually and by people that may-not hold your intentions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.voxy.co.nz/national/internet-filtering-lead/5/18541" rel="nofollow">http://www.voxy.co.nz/national/internet-filtering-lead/5/18541</a></p>
<p>So much noise but so quite?</p>
<p>If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.</p>
<p>This may not be connected to copy right but an unpublished list and tracking</p>
<p>You invent a weapon that you and your buddies may-not use but it will be eventually and by people that may-not hold your intentions.</p>
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		<title>By: GNZ</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583598</link>
		<dc:creator>GNZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583598</guid>
		<description>If yo uare going to compare the costs and benefits since the marginal cost of software and music is 0 then the benefits of piracy are likely to outweigh the costs even before the government spends a cent. That would only not be the case if the lack of sales was forcing the companies under (and does anyone think we have a shortage of movies and music in the world today?) and since the vast majority are non NZ companies that would be unlikely to be very large compared to the costs from a NZ perspective (in this regard it is rather like the global warming debate).

If such a law is to get off the ground it has to be entirely about protection of property rights at any cost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If yo uare going to compare the costs and benefits since the marginal cost of software and music is 0 then the benefits of piracy are likely to outweigh the costs even before the government spends a cent. That would only not be the case if the lack of sales was forcing the companies under (and does anyone think we have a shortage of movies and music in the world today?) and since the vast majority are non NZ companies that would be unlikely to be very large compared to the costs from a NZ perspective (in this regard it is rather like the global warming debate).</p>
<p>If such a law is to get off the ground it has to be entirely about protection of property rights at any cost.</p>
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		<title>By: Blutoof</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583593</link>
		<dc:creator>Blutoof</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583593</guid>
		<description>It’s a **standard** technique, and you must be weary of it.

I think you are right in most cases petal but you picked exactly the wrong example in this case.
I would prefer to live unlawfully before having to carry around any &quot;National ID Card&quot; Smart or otherwise.
But, by putting a persons photo on a license, it removes one big reason for any authority to introduce said ID cards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It’s a **standard** technique, and you must be weary of it.</p>
<p>I think you are right in most cases petal but you picked exactly the wrong example in this case.<br />
I would prefer to live unlawfully before having to carry around any &#8220;National ID Card&#8221; Smart or otherwise.<br />
But, by putting a persons photo on a license, it removes one big reason for any authority to introduce said ID cards.</p>
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		<title>By: thedavincimode</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583581</link>
		<dc:creator>thedavincimode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583581</guid>
		<description>Hagues, its worse than that.  

You&#039;re just chilled out and ready to hit the pit (that would be order to get up in the morning and go to work Phil) and the deadbeat yobbo political neandertal duckman chimes in to remind us not only what a complete and utter arse he is, but also what the last 9 years were like.  If he had half a brain he would lie low so we can try and forget all about him.  At least then he and his cronies would have half a chance next time round.  But no, he&#039;s too  stupid and arrogant to figure out that he should just quietly fuck off into the shadows.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hagues, its worse than that.  </p>
<p>You&#8217;re just chilled out and ready to hit the pit (that would be order to get up in the morning and go to work Phil) and the deadbeat yobbo political neandertal duckman chimes in to remind us not only what a complete and utter arse he is, but also what the last 9 years were like.  If he had half a brain he would lie low so we can try and forget all about him.  At least then he and his cronies would have half a chance next time round.  But no, he&#8217;s too  stupid and arrogant to figure out that he should just quietly fuck off into the shadows.</p>
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		<title>By: Hagues</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583575</link>
		<dc:creator>Hagues</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:26:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583575</guid>
		<description>Trev are you the new Philu with your linkwhoring? If I cared what was said on your communist propaganda website I&#039;d be reading it already.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trev are you the new Philu with your linkwhoring? If I cared what was said on your communist propaganda website I&#8217;d be reading it already.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian (Shadowfoot)</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583560</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian (Shadowfoot)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583560</guid>
		<description>Why stop at cutting infringers off from the internet. They used electricity to download so lets ban them using that as well.

Banning them from using the internet will also mean losing their jobs, as many people who are capable of downloading work with computers with internet access. If the infringing was at home will an employer have to ensure that one employee has no internet access?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why stop at cutting infringers off from the internet. They used electricity to download so lets ban them using that as well.</p>
<p>Banning them from using the internet will also mean losing their jobs, as many people who are capable of downloading work with computers with internet access. If the infringing was at home will an employer have to ensure that one employee has no internet access?</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor Mallard</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583549</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor Mallard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 07:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583549</guid>
		<description>Clare on Red Alert has moved further away from s92A than David. Interesting. http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2009/07/14/not-much-chop-on-copyright-or-anything-else/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clare on Red Alert has moved further away from s92A than David. Interesting. <a href="http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2009/07/14/not-much-chop-on-copyright-or-anything-else/" rel="nofollow">http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2009/07/14/not-much-chop-on-copyright-or-anything-else/</a></p>
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		<title>By: EverlastingFire</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583530</link>
		<dc:creator>EverlastingFire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 06:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583530</guid>
		<description>Anything to come out of the vile Tizard should be thrown out immediately.  During the election National claimed Helen was enforcing a nanny state... so what would we call this? Lesser nanny state?  Other countries have thrown out such proposals, why should we &quot;lead&quot; (riiiight) on this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anything to come out of the vile Tizard should be thrown out immediately.  During the election National claimed Helen was enforcing a nanny state&#8230; so what would we call this? Lesser nanny state?  Other countries have thrown out such proposals, why should we &#8220;lead&#8221; (riiiight) on this?</p>
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		<title>By: petal</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583514</link>
		<dc:creator>petal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 05:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583514</guid>
		<description>Ok listen up class - time to remind most of you, and time to learn something new for you young&#039;uns.

It&#039;s a **standard** technique, and you must be weary of it.  

How do you get a population to accept an unpopular something, called A?
Simple.  Also push for a much more outrageous something, called B.
Populace all up in arms about B.  
Government &quot;caves in&quot; on B, gets A accepted
Government smiles
Population thinks &quot;they won&quot;

Ok, you need a forinstance, ok.

Introduction of credit card picture drivers&#039; licenses.
Unpopular idea, because of privacy and big brother concerns, probably not going to fly
Introduce option B at the same time: NATIONAL ID CARD FOR EVERYONE
Oh my gawd - it IS true, they ARE trying to introduce Nazi like Government control!
&quot;Cave in&quot; on compulsory national id card idea
Accepted: picture drivers license, the original aim.
Public thinks they won.  (of course not, as this is a national id card for 95% of all adults)

Now that you know, you can use this for your own life

1. recognise it when it is happening to you, and learn to derail option A also
2. use it yourself (school board, club committee, meetings at work) to get option A through

Someone once said to me &quot;never ask a question you don&#039;t already know the answer to&quot;

Have fun, and be sure to send Miss Petal a postcard</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok listen up class &#8211; time to remind most of you, and time to learn something new for you young&#8217;uns.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a **standard** technique, and you must be weary of it.  </p>
<p>How do you get a population to accept an unpopular something, called A?<br />
Simple.  Also push for a much more outrageous something, called B.<br />
Populace all up in arms about B.<br />
Government &#8220;caves in&#8221; on B, gets A accepted<br />
Government smiles<br />
Population thinks &#8220;they won&#8221;</p>
<p>Ok, you need a forinstance, ok.</p>
<p>Introduction of credit card picture drivers&#8217; licenses.<br />
Unpopular idea, because of privacy and big brother concerns, probably not going to fly<br />
Introduce option B at the same time: NATIONAL ID CARD FOR EVERYONE<br />
Oh my gawd &#8211; it IS true, they ARE trying to introduce Nazi like Government control!<br />
&#8220;Cave in&#8221; on compulsory national id card idea<br />
Accepted: picture drivers license, the original aim.<br />
Public thinks they won.  (of course not, as this is a national id card for 95% of all adults)</p>
<p>Now that you know, you can use this for your own life</p>
<p>1. recognise it when it is happening to you, and learn to derail option A also<br />
2. use it yourself (school board, club committee, meetings at work) to get option A through</p>
<p>Someone once said to me &#8220;never ask a question you don&#8217;t already know the answer to&#8221;</p>
<p>Have fun, and be sure to send Miss Petal a postcard</p>
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		<title>By: diogratia</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583506</link>
		<dc:creator>diogratia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 05:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583506</guid>
		<description>All this seems rather elaborate for what could be expected to be a civil tort.  It looks like the primary purpose is to reduce the cost to the copyright holders in persecuting a claim of infringement, and probably to a lower level of proof, too.  Creating a new judiciary system and placing burden upon ISPs seems to be cost shifting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All this seems rather elaborate for what could be expected to be a civil tort.  It looks like the primary purpose is to reduce the cost to the copyright holders in persecuting a claim of infringement, and probably to a lower level of proof, too.  Creating a new judiciary system and placing burden upon ISPs seems to be cost shifting.</p>
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		<title>By: Rodders</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583498</link>
		<dc:creator>Rodders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 04:58:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583498</guid>
		<description>If you would like to listen to a programme about copyright and S92A, 
http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/inst/inst-20090712-0812-Insight_for_Sunday_12_July_2009_Copyright-048.mp3</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you would like to listen to a programme about copyright and S92A,<br />
<a href="http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/inst/inst-20090712-0812-Insight_for_Sunday_12_July_2009_Copyright-048.mp3" rel="nofollow">http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/inst/inst-20090712-0812-Insight_for_Sunday_12_July_2009_Copyright-048.mp3</a></p>
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		<title>By: MyNameIsJack</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583494</link>
		<dc:creator>MyNameIsJack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 04:48:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583494</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;NZ Post can’t search letters if they think there’s something illegal going on.

&lt;/i&gt;

And even if there is, one is prosecuted for that offence, not denied a mail service.

Why stop at cutting of the internet? Better also cut off electricity so I can&#039;t burn CDs and listen to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>NZ Post can’t search letters if they think there’s something illegal going on.</p>
<p></i></p>
<p>And even if there is, one is prosecuted for that offence, not denied a mail service.</p>
<p>Why stop at cutting of the internet? Better also cut off electricity so I can&#8217;t burn CDs and listen to them.</p>
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		<title>By: MyNameIsJack</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583491</link>
		<dc:creator>MyNameIsJack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 04:46:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583491</guid>
		<description>Can&#039;t say there&#039;s anyone or anything above to disagree with, except for the proposals for new laws. Laws we don&#039;t need. We already have copyright laws. Enforce those.

Do we want to end up like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goEEbsEDEM4&amp;feature=player_embedded</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t say there&#8217;s anyone or anything above to disagree with, except for the proposals for new laws. Laws we don&#8217;t need. We already have copyright laws. Enforce those.</p>
<p>Do we want to end up like this?</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goEEbsEDEM4&#038;feature=player_embedded" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goEEbsEDEM4&#038;feature=player_embedded</a></p>
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		<title>By: Murray</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583482</link>
		<dc:creator>Murray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 04:37:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583482</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve got a proposal, it invloves a match.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve got a proposal, it invloves a match.</p>
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		<title>By: peteremcc</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583481</link>
		<dc:creator>peteremcc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 04:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583481</guid>
		<description>Sorry, what right does any ISP have to spy on (either themselves or on behalf of a rights holder) what their users are doing?

NZ Post can&#039;t search letters if they think there&#039;s something illegal going on.

If rights holders have evidence of breaches of the law then they should go to police - enforcing the law is the police&#039;s job, not ISPs or rights holders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, what right does any ISP have to spy on (either themselves or on behalf of a rights holder) what their users are doing?</p>
<p>NZ Post can&#8217;t search letters if they think there&#8217;s something illegal going on.</p>
<p>If rights holders have evidence of breaches of the law then they should go to police &#8211; enforcing the law is the police&#8217;s job, not ISPs or rights holders.</p>
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		<title>By: petal</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583476</link>
		<dc:creator>petal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 04:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583476</guid>
		<description>All this is eventually going to lead to a requirement to have an Internet passport or drivers&#039; licence.  One day we will tell incredulous youngsters that it was possible to be anonymous on the Internet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All this is eventually going to lead to a requirement to have an Internet passport or drivers&#8217; licence.  One day we will tell incredulous youngsters that it was possible to be anonymous on the Internet.</p>
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		<title>By: wreck1080</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583474</link>
		<dc:creator>wreck1080</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 04:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583474</guid>
		<description>Does the technology actually exist to get to phase 2? 

How will a RH know if there is a repeat infringement? They will only see the IP address, and that can change each time a user reboots their ADSL modem.  The RH will have to rely on the ISP&#039;s to identify 2nd infringements. But, that does not seem to be addressed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does the technology actually exist to get to phase 2? </p>
<p>How will a RH know if there is a repeat infringement? They will only see the IP address, and that can change each time a user reboots their ADSL modem.  The RH will have to rely on the ISP&#8217;s to identify 2nd infringements. But, that does not seem to be addressed.</p>
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		<title>By: NoCash</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583467</link>
		<dc:creator>NoCash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 04:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583467</guid>
		<description>All good for catching the casual BT users (e.g. via honeypot), but the proposal is no good against newsgroup and file hosting services hosted overseas. Don&#039;t forget most NZers don&#039;t upload or share copyrighted materials illegally, but download them from overseas. Since most file hosting and newsgroup services don&#039;t log user activities, it&#039;s almost impossible for copyright holders to found out which Kiwis are downloading their work, unless the copyright holders first summon the service provider (the newsgroup and file hosting services, not your local ISP) for access log (if they even keep one), before they can contact the NZ ISP to identify the user.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All good for catching the casual BT users (e.g. via honeypot), but the proposal is no good against newsgroup and file hosting services hosted overseas. Don&#8217;t forget most NZers don&#8217;t upload or share copyrighted materials illegally, but download them from overseas. Since most file hosting and newsgroup services don&#8217;t log user activities, it&#8217;s almost impossible for copyright holders to found out which Kiwis are downloading their work, unless the copyright holders first summon the service provider (the newsgroup and file hosting services, not your local ISP) for access log (if they even keep one), before they can contact the NZ ISP to identify the user.</p>
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		<title>By: davidp</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/the_s92a_proposal.html#comment-583450</link>
		<dc:creator>davidp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 03:26:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=34757#comment-583450</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d be interested in a penalty regime for infringement allegations that are based on shonky evidence. In my experience, far more false allegations will be received than ones that are proven by reliable evidence. If a member of the public needs to defend themself against a false allegation, then they should be awarded costs. And the rights holder should have their internet access terminated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d be interested in a penalty regime for infringement allegations that are based on shonky evidence. In my experience, far more false allegations will be received than ones that are proven by reliable evidence. If a member of the public needs to defend themself against a false allegation, then they should be awarded costs. And the rights holder should have their internet access terminated.</p>
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