Save the Basin misnamed
A good editorial from the Wellingtonian:
We have good news for the principals of the Save the Basin trust.
The Basin Reserve, one of Wellington’s premier sports venues, does not need saving. It is as safe as houses.
So why is there a save the basin campaign?
Therefore, it raises the question of the real agenda of the Save the Basin trustees.
The news section of their website deals only marginally with the Basin Reserve.
However, there are mentions of “a huge concrete flyover”, “the roar of trucks and the howl of boy racers from the flyover”, “clouds of pollution and car exhaust”.
It seems possible that the reason for the formation of the Save the Basin trust has more to do with preventing the building of the flyover than protecting “New Zealand’s oldest dedicated cricket pitch”, as the website describes the Basin.
So it is the usual “we like congestion” campaigners.
A Save the Basin protest gathering last week drew about a dozen protesters.
Their banners were focused almost exclusively on preventing the flyover being built. It was hard to find a mention of the Basin.
If Kent Duston, Iona Pannett and company don’t want the proposed flyover, it’s their right to try to stop it being built. If they want to ban cars, get rid of roads and return us to the horse-and-carriage age, it’s their prerogative to so campaign.
Pannett is of course a Green Party City Councillor. Duston was (he was a list candidate for the Green Party last election.
But the way things stand now, some people might feel they are being dishonest about their intentions, tugging at the emotions with their Save the Basin title, while actually running a separate campaign far removed from either the Basin or cricket.
Perhaps Ban the Flyover would not have quite the appeal of Save the Basin.
But at least it might more accurately reflect the trustees’ ambitions.
Indeed. I remember the decade plus campaign of protests against the motorway extension. And now it has happened, you would never go back. I find traffic down that end of town much faster moving now
September 18th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
could always put a h in that – with an opossing campaign;
“Shave the Basin”
September 18th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
“And now it has happened, you would never go back. I find traffic down that end of town much faster moving now” DPF – you may not, but many still feel that the bypass has done very little for traffic flow, but did a whole lot to destroy upper Cuba St and that area of town… Why’s the focus always on trying to improve traffic flow, rather than improving means of public transport or getting people to look at other means of getting around. Shesh.
September 18th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Kent Duston hasn’t had this much publicity since he got that perfectly reasonable Thai brothel shut down in Mt. Vic.
September 18th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
It’s a pity that the bad guys have so much more time on their hands to do this kind of stuff than the good guys have to campaign for things that are really important. The side of the political spectrum consisting of people who don’t raise children and don’t produce valuable goods and services to earn a living really has a huge advantage.
September 18th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
It’ll be hideous:
http://img2.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/0811/2977089f79f6281e6069.jpeg
Of course it will ruin the basin. The basin will go from being a bloody nice place to a park beside a motorway fly-over.
September 18th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Leg Break wrote:
No it’s still there. They just couldn’t increase the number of staff.
September 18th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
“Indeed. I remember the decade plus campaign of protests against the motorway extension. And now it has happened, you would never go back. I find traffic down that end of town much faster moving now”
Damn straight.
I do worry about the road effecting cricket games at the basin though, but I don’t think Cr John Morrison would let something that bad get through without some sort of mitigation.
September 18th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
From my perspective, it has slowed the flow down considerably. However… making Ghuznee St two way again has speeded my travels up considerably, so go figure. I bypass the bypass.
September 18th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Pannett, a member of the same Green Party that will ban construction of any thing and will happily send us back to the Stone Age.
It proves the point the Luddites are extremely dangerous.
Perish the thought these lunatics ever get close to the levers of power.
September 18th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
That flyover is hideous. For god’s sake the Basin is the best cricket ground in the country and one of the nicest anywhere. But hey, if it shaves two minutes off someone’s journey to the window-licker’s paradise of Newtown, then who cares? I’m not a greenie anti-progress type, but this is just shite.
September 18th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Afternoon David.
It is just possible they have a point. What is now perhaps NZ’s best venue for cricket would lose much of it’s attraction if a bloody great motorway were to blot out the skyline, bugger up the light and alter the howling southerly.
Bloody hell man, if Labour was still in power they’d build a three billion dollar tunnel. Don’t worry about the money, just go down to the bottom of the garden ……………………………………….
September 18th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
“So it is the usual “we like congestion” campaigners”
Wrong David. All the parties involved just recognise the science that tells us that building motorways does not relieve congestion. It’s a simple fact that the current government refuses to acknowledge. That’s why maurice Williamson has been sidelined – he’s been saying this since he was Transport Minister. The new Infrastructure Report that Joyce is using to justify his motorway binge says it too – you cannot build your way out of a congestion problem.
the truth is, the more motorways you build, the more traffic you induce. Public Transport and Broadband, and maintain the roads we’ve got to a better standard, optimising the traffic flow.
[DPF: Of course motorways reduce congestion. They have done so in thousands of cities in 100+ countries.
Public Transport is complementary to good roads, not a substitute.]
September 18th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Looks to me like the flyover will greatly improve the access to the Basin from surrounding streets, making it a much more integrated part of the surrounding suburbs. It isn’t clear to me that it will be even especially visible from inside the basin.
Cars leave far greater emissions and noise when they’re jammed up, stopping and starting, and moving slowly than they do when they go past at 80kph. I reckon this will improve the experience at the Basin.
September 18th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Frog – all the science says that building motorways does not relieve congestion? So what does the science say about public transport relieving congestion?
The reality is that people make a trade off between quality of life and congestion. When there are better roads, they travel further to work each day. They presumably have a better quality of life from doing so, else they wouldn’t travel further. I’d guess they’re on a quarter acre block somewhere in the suburbs (maybe with a nice vege garden and some lawn) instead of in an apartment in the city.
So, you’re probably correct in that congestion doesn’t reduce, as we end up with more cars. But, the quality of life for all those people has just improved – they now have a quarter acre instead of an apartment.
Looking forward to the study that shows that public transport reduces congestion – my guess would be that the exact same effect will apply – for everyone who moves to public transport someone else will move to a quarter acre in the suburbs and start driving to work.
The reality is that people would rather drive their car, they only stop driving cars when we force it to be unattractive through failing to alleviate congestion, applying taxes or tolls, or imposing planning restrictions. There is an equilibrium in effect too – so as we force some people into public transport that leads to reduction in congestion, which then draws people back off public transport into driving.
September 18th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Oh – and I have another one for you. Do police induce crime? All the science says that the more police you have the more crime you have….surely this means that police induce crime in a similar way to motorways inducing traffic?
September 18th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Bollocks. Scientists (and economists, policy analysts and statisticians) have very well proven methods for distinguishing between correlation and causation.
One of the best arguments for increased spending on urban public transport is tied to both economics and “quality of life” – better utilisation of expensive real estate. A comprehensive, well-utilised public transport system can carry a greater density of people per square metre than any motorway system, so you can get people into and around the city without knocking down the most productive / most attractive bits of it (or building enormous flyovers over them).
September 18th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Very few things infuriate me more than a fucking pinko (in this case Frog) telling me (a born and bred Wellingtonian) that public transport is the way to go.
It may have escaped Frog but the weather in Wellington is CRAP, as somebody who grew up walking everywhere or taking public transport for longer journeys I can tell that idiot that unless you have public transport that stops at MY door and directly outside the place I wish to travel to then public transport is simply not an option.
Given Wellington’s geography a door to door public transport system is NEVER going to happen, nobody wants to arrive at their destination soaking wet and nobody wants to arrive freezing cold.
Motorways are the way to go, the people want them, it makes ones journey far more pleasurable and the only way that the Greens will ever see mass public transport in use is if they are able to force us onto it.
September 18th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
You seem more than happy to tell everyone else which way to go though.
BTW, how do you manage parking your car door to door?
September 18th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Perhaps Ban the Flyover would not have quite the appeal of Save the Basin.
perhaps banning the flyover would save the Basin?
September 18th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
The massive increase in train usage in Auckland since the services were improved in the last few years seems to contradict you… unless you’re contending that all the users are being “forced” onto the trains somehow.
September 18th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Frog Says
“the truth is, the more motorways you build, the more traffic you induce. Public Transport and Broadband, and maintain the roads we’ve got to a better standard, optimising the traffic flow.”
Interesting thought there Frog. If we carry that thinking on, we should not be investing in Broadband because that just induces more use. We should make people use Dial up Modems and copper wire, nah fuck it, lets make them use semaphore
September 18th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
James – massive increase in train usage. Statistics? Massive in it’s gone from 3 people per day to 6 – therefore a massive 100% increase? Or massive in that 5% of commuters have moved from cars to public transport?
September 18th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
That’s a good analogy, because it’s true in both cases – extra capacity really does induce demand. The difference being, you don’t have to demolish entire neighbourhoods to put in broadband.
September 18th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Your point? Both those figures sound like reasonable and worthwhile increases to me
September 18th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
To put it another way James, with broadband the Greens, who are all knowing, have decided that it is OK to let people have what they want. But with transport, the Greens, who are all knowing, have decided that more roads are bad. Therefore they want us to not build them, thereby forcing people to use public transport that they otherwise wouldn’t use. In other words, the Greens know better than the population what is good for them. That will make an excellent campaign slogan next election, won’t it.
On the statistics – do you know what the number is, or even the ball park, or did you erroneously claim “massive.” My suspicion is that there are very few people using trains even after the long overdue and expensive upgrade, using my taxpayer dollars.
September 18th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
How did this thread become a philosophical discussion on the merits or otherwise of Public transport??
When there are more important things like the future of the northern end of the bank at the Basin to consider…
September 18th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
@PaulL:
Who is this “Population” who don’t want better public transport? My understanding is that there is broad support for at least some increase in PT spending for Auckland in particular, or else why would Steven Joyce be talking up an “ambitious” system?
September 18th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Sorry, I know my priorities are screwed up.
September 18th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Leg Break
A bloody great fly over might deflect some of that horrible northerly that prevails from the north.
September 18th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Wrong end I think bb, but it might deflect the southerly that prevails from the south.
Leg Break, are you an actor or a skier or something?
September 18th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Leg Break, are you an actor or a skier or something?
Both, but not professionally.
Why?
September 18th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
That’s funny (maybe the joke’s on me), with a name like that, three out of three.
September 18th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
This should not be about whether or not to preserve the ambience of the Basin. Hardly anyone ever goes to the Basin. Full house is maybe 10,000 and that occurs about one day a year if the Black Caps are winning, which they’re usually not.
The rest of the time, the Basin is the world’s biggest roundabout.
But many more people than that get stuck in traffic trying to get to the airport or the eastern or southern suburbs every day. If the flyover helps them make progress, go for it. No flyovers are beautiful, but we put up with them because we like to go places.
As far as the by-pass goes, we let the greenies hold that up for 40 years. It’s about a kilometre long – blink and you miss it. But it does its job, and Cuba Street still has charm-aplenty.
My old flat in Arthur Street got bulldozed to make way for that, which saddens me somewhat, but why should my sense of nostalgia impede the public good?
The biggest problem with this proposal is Jesse Ryder smashing a six through some overflying motorist’s windscreen.
September 18th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
@ Cerium
Got you now. Very good.
@John Ansell
Actually the Basin is only full when India or England is touring.
September 18th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Anyone know off the top what NZ Cricket has to say about this whole thing? Would assume they’d get some sort of a say, but as John says the internationals use maybe 10 days a year tops.
September 18th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
NZ Cricket just rent the place so probably don’t carry a lot of clout.
And given there aren’t test grounds in Auckland or Christchurch at the moment, it’s probably the least of their worries. They’re fighting all sorts of fires at the moment.
BTW, just because Morrison say it’s OK, doesn’t mean it is.
September 18th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Actually the Basin is only full when India or England is touring.
There were a few full albeit Graeme Smith filled days a few years back, was great apart from the losing.
September 18th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Tunnel straight under the Basin instead of the flyover. You really can’t beat it on a good day there, would be a shame to have a flyover across the top of it. But I have and never will agree with a hippy /greeny (should all be burnt at the stake for Practicing witchcraft end of story).
September 18th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Bugger it, build 2 bloody great big tunnels all the way from the Terrace Tunnel (which should be duplicated in any case) to the other side of Mt Vic. Problem solved. Oh, wait, it might cost too much. OK, we still need to do something about the traffic problem. Why not a flyover? It’s a lot cheaper and OK, it looks tacky, but so do most of the buildings in Wellington anyway.
Better yet, knock over the Basin, build a big interchange in its place, make a proper motorway between the tunnels and get rid of all the traffic lights. Cambridge Terrace will become the main thoroughfare to the Eastern part of Wellington CBD, Adelaide Road the main route to the hospital, and Taranaki Street only has an overbridge. Then play cricket at Cake Tin Stadium, which is bigger anyway, a lot easier to get to, actually has parking and is right next to a railway station. And if we need a quaint little cricket park with a white picket fence, that is hard to get to, has next to no parking and no public transport use Kelburn Park. Problem solved.
September 18th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
The way the Slack Chaps are hurtling towards Bangladesh and Zimbabwe at the foot of the international ladder maybe we should be conducting the use of The Basin argument, for our AFL team.
September 18th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
BTW please don’t try to justify any subsidy support for Wellington public transport to me. I had to pay compulsory levies on my property situated north of Masterton to keep it affordable for the poor people who COULD USE it, and I suppose that rort is still going strong. Public transport be buggered, it is only for a very few of the public who are levied to pay for it.
September 18th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
I live in Wellington.
I used to take a train and bus to school.
It was crap then, it’s still crap now.
My car is comfortable, even in a traffic jam. Leather seats, stereo, no people with dubious hygiene habits, no school kids, no beards.
Let’s get more roads built – more than happy to pay a toll, if necessary, so long as the public transport takers face their full costs, too.
September 18th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
I keep misreading this as “Save the Bain”
September 18th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Good idea to get rid of the basin entirely, gazzmaniac
It’s a pointless place for a cricket ground….
September 18th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
“And now it has happened, you would never go back. I find traffic down that end of town much faster moving now”
Seems to me that its faster to get out of town heading north, not much different trying to get across town, slower trying to get to Brooklyn or in that direction from downtown.
Definitely slower if you are walking – the main difference just seems to be setting the traffic lights so that pedestrians wait longer while cars go past. If that’s the key to reducing congestion we needn’t have spent all that money or bowled all those houses.
September 18th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Good idea to get rid of the basin entirely, gazzmaniac
It’s a pointless place for a cricket ground….
Peasant
September 18th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
I never understood that rubbish argument against the bypass and the nonsensical argument that upper Cuba Street has some sort of mystical nostalgia.
Lower Cuba and Cuba mall I can understand has atmosphere. Upper Cuba has nothing of which I would like to see saved.
Upper Cuba street is a decrepit dump by first world standards and Mr Buchanan your residence in the area is a blight on the Wellington central landscape. The only disappointment that I had with that project was it didn’t bowl your place.
September 18th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
I tend to agree with jag on this. I tend to think Wellington’s inner city area would be vastly improved by a massive clearance of everything between Vivian St, Webb St, Cambridge Tce and Willis st.
September 18th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
http://transportblog.co.nz/2009/09/04/the-arc-transport-survey/
Summary: 5-fold increase in 6 years. Ridership is still low by world standards, but I’ve seen estimates that in <10 years the system will reach saturation for the current track layout (ie. without a CBD rail loop).
Surely the best compromise is for rail and road for both to be paid for by users of both – this accounts for the fact that increased usage of one leaves more capacity for the other, while allowing for the fact that both modes have different advantages for different people. I guess that's too much like socialism for folks 'round here
September 18th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
“I never understood that rubbish argument against the bypass and the nonsensical argument that upper Cuba Street has some sort of mystical nostalgia.”
Well if you don’t understand it, you’re not very well placed to comment on it are you?
I live about 40km from Cuba Street, by the way.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
From the illustration provided, it hardly seems that the proposed flyover would ruin the Basin. It looks to be located far enough to the north not to affect the cricket or any other activity there.
Every day I use the flyover at Mt Maunganui which has solved the problem of a hideous double roundabout and rail crossing below. Modern flyovers like this have (patterned) concrete sides which provide safety, but also keep the noise upstairs. The Basin flyover would mean less noise at ground level.
What arrant nonsense that more motorways add to congestion. Imagine going to Auckland up the Great South Road. Dopey Greens.
September 18th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
gazza
Stick to softball pal.
September 18th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Well said Jag, upper Willis Street and upper Cuba street has always been a shit hole.
September 18th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
Originally the bypass was supposed to be in a covered trench all the way to Cambridge Tce.
40 years of arguing used up all the money and we were left with the crappy compromise that was built.
September 19th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Emotional nostalga. The basin while nice is in a crap place and is long past its use by date. Impossible to access, expensive to keep and who watches cricket anyway.
Move them to the cake tin.
September 19th, 2009 at 10:20 am
The Newlands flyover made traffic north out of Wellington so much better. As has the double laning from Mana Roundabout to Pukerua Bay. The new Dowse Interchange makes getting to Lower Hutt centre and the Eastern Hutt much easier, as will the proposed Melling and Sh58 Interchanges. So why will improving traffic flow at the basin lead to more congestion?
September 19th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Cost benefit analysis anyone?
September 19th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
Is the Basin actually the bottleneck, or is it the fact that the Mt Victoria tunnel only has two lanes the bottleneck?