Plan for dealing with disruptive kids too late says PPTA

October 1st, 2009 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

The Dom Post reports:

Education Minister unveiled plans at the Post Primary Teachers’ Association () national conference in Wellington yesterday to put 12,000 parents of disruptive kids through parenting courses and give 5000 teachers from low-income areas extra training to deal with violence.

PPTA president Kate Gainsford said the plan was “a step in the right direction” but was not enough to help secondary teachers already dealing with disturbed and violent students.

“It’s a great idea, we won’t see the results for another decade, and that’s just too late,” she said.

Hmmn, who has been in Government for the last decade? Is the PPTA saying Labour should have done this in their first year of office, rather than leave it to National to come up with solutions in their first year of office?

“It needs to be supplemented at the adolescent level now.”

That would be nice, and it is tough for teachers with disruptive adolescents. But in an era of limited funding, the targeting of the scheme at kids when they are much younger will have the most impact in the long term.

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35 Responses to “Plan for dealing with disruptive kids too late says PPTA”

  1. andrei (2,547 comments) says:

    I wish this was satire but it isn’t. Typical ivory tower stuff – night classes on parenting for those deemed to be lacking in skills in this area by virtue of the fact their children are “disruptive” in class.

    Is wimen like Kate Gainsford who have feminized education to such an extent that school is just about irrelevant to many red blooded boys that have a lot to answer for and here is National pandering to them in another useless “initiative” that will soak up tax payers money with no tangible result.

    Sigh

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  2. Mike S (229 comments) says:

    So Anne Tolley wants to have parents trained, just as Nanny did… the return of the Nanny State?

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  3. stephen (4,063 comments) says:

    But in an era of limited funding,

    What’s the alternative again!? ;-)

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  4. RightNow (6,973 comments) says:

    I’m for it. We’re pushing for parents to be responsible for their children, and if they need lessons in how to do it then this is one way of doing it. One of the issues is identifying the parents who need the training, and this seems as good a criteria as any. Let’s face it, not all parents are good at parenting, and since parenting skills seem mostly to be learned from our own parents then this would seem a way to make a change across a generation so that the next generations will learn the improved parenting too. Rather than just keep laying the blame on bad parents this could be an effective way of making a change. I see it as likely to be far more effective than Bradford’s changes to S59.
    The real worry is what the parents will be taught. Fingers crossed its practical lessons about budgeting, healthy lifestyles, respect and the value of work, and not a curriculum of PC nonsense.

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  5. PaulL (5,943 comments) says:

    Rightnow: hopefully it will be more practical still. How to discipline a child consistently, and in particular how to discipline without a smack and why. What is reasonable behaviour, and what is not.

    An initiative like this will be great for the parents that are really trying, but just don’t know how. And there are probably a decent number of them, so an investment to help them is worthwhile.

    What it won’t help are the parents who don’t care. We need something else to help them.

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  6. Colonel Masters (409 comments) says:

    What it won’t help are the parents who don’t care. We need something else to help them.

    The snip?

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  7. malcolm (1,952 comments) says:

    Waste of money.

    Many in NZ see no benefit in education or being decent people. Why bother? The state will support you unconditionally. No need to be employable. They pass that attitude onto their kids. We need to let people fail utterly and completely if they do nothing to help themselves.

    The social welfare system has created this problem. We’ve created an underclass by helping people who don’t really need help (and not really helping the much smaller number who do need help). Only by dismantling it will people see that they are owed nothing and need to add something to society. One only need look at the gormless mongrel mob dick and his son in this article to see the problem:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2915265/Housing-NZ-wins-fight-to-evict-gang-families

    A few generations ago people would do anything to get their kids educated. Now we have to bribe and coerce people to think about their kids. Something is very wrong.

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  8. Elijah Lineberry (306 comments) says:

    “Six of the best” would be the most effective way of dealing with these children…

    http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com

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  9. Chuck Bird (4,835 comments) says:

    Sue Bradford will soon be in need of a job. Seriously, how qualified will those who those who are to teach parents how to parent be?

    I recall many years ago visiting the home of a school principal. His young daughter was an disciplined brat.

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  10. dad4justice (8,078 comments) says:

    How long before police are permanently stationed in all our schools? Primary Schools in Christchurch East are recruitment agencies for both the mob and dark power gangs, meanwhile the slippery parasite MP Lieanne Dalzeel gets her hair done and turns a blind eye to the mayhem. Government agencies have created this nightmare for children by implementing nanny state ideologies which have made the word discipline a no go in the fairy hairy liberal staffrooms.I do wonder how many young sexually abused girls are forced to visit the Cambridge Clinic this week? What a sick country run by retards who couldn’t give a flying fuck about anybody other than their pig headed egotistical selves. It is little wonder, we as a dysfunctional country head child abuse and infanticide statistics. Poor kids never get a chance in a sad country. Get a grip kiwi, for the kids sake!!

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  11. side show bob (3,660 comments) says:

    What a fucking load of sanctimonious liberal nonsense. For Gods sake it’s not parents that should be blamed it’s the left leaning suckholes, their limp wrist-ed view of the world and their belief the state knows best. We don’t need to spend millions sorting this out, we need the wankers that constitute the state to get out of our lives. Fuck these tossers are clueless dickheads, let parents be parents again, let teachers kick the odd arse now and then. Anne Tolley wants to get a life and grow a brain, when will these liberal tossers admit they have screwed up. No better to start a program, form a new agency etc etc etc. Why does government have to complicate every aspect of our lives? But it’s probably to late to turn back now as the damage done to our society is like cancer, I fear the outcome will be terminal.

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  12. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Education Minister Anne Tolley unveiled plans at the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) national conference in Wellington yesterday to put 12,000 parents of disruptive kids through parenting courses …

    And, of course, the obvious unasked question is; how many of those children (of the 12,000 parents) come from loving, two parent families where they have been taught good moral values, self control, respect for others, and were disciplined thereby teaching them there are consequences for their actions?

    Or indeed, how many have no father involved in their lives; live in a household where mum has numerous ‘uncles’ coming and going; have been physically/sexually abused by various step ‘dads'; have been shunted around numerous foster homes; live in a welfare dependent household; have no one that loves them or is concerned for their welfare; were never taught any value system?

    And there may be some who are simply the result of socialist indoctrination; where they are the centre of their own little universe, have little empathy for others (future sociopaths?), and certainly no respect for parents/teachers/authority figures?

    More ambulance at the bottom of the cliff stuff I fear, without really addressing the real issues?
    But at least it’s a start inasmuch as it acknowledges the issue; out of control youth. Something the previous government never even acknowledged, and, I believe, are largely responsible for.

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  13. Brian Smaller (4,007 comments) says:

    One only need look at the gormless mongrel mob dick and his son in this article to see the problem:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2915265/Housing-NZ-wins-fight-to-evict-gang-families

    I can imagine that staunch kid probably isn’t top of his class in English. Can you get NCEA credits in intimidation? So, these stupid parasite women whose “partners” are in gangs getting benefits? i would say almost certainly. Disgusting.

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  14. Pete George (23,434 comments) says:

    “For Gods sake it’s not parents that should be blamed it’s….”
    “Something the previous government never even acknowledged, and, I believe, are largely responsible for.”

    Yeah, right. Not the parents fault. Not the wide family’s fault. Not the community’s fault.
    It’s all the lefties and the government’s fault – for not doing enough, or interfering, one or the other depending on the accusation of the day. Why are there so few good righty parents with any influence? The ones that aren’t trying to scare the little twerps into obedience and respect.

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  15. s.russell (1,599 comments) says:

    Yes, yes, yes. You right-wing fanatics can rant all you like about what has caused parents to become so hopeless. But however right you may be about the historical causes of this generation of parents being so hopeless, what is of more importance is doing something to fix the problem NOW. That is what this initiative does. It is trying to break the cycle that you so lament, and I suspect this one action will do more to achieve that than anything the Labour Govt did in nine years.

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  16. Chuck Bird (4,835 comments) says:

    That is what this initiative does. It is trying to break the cycle that you so lament, and I suspect this one action will do more to achieve that than anything the Labour Govt did in nine years.

    I suspect it will do as much good as micro chipping dogs did to stop dog attacks.

    Previous governments over the last 30 to 40 years created the problem by devaluing and undermining marriage.

    I wonder what percentage of these disruptive kids are from two parent families with both their parents married to each other and not on a benefit?

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  17. bchapman (649 comments) says:

    This is way too big a topic to reduce to a few talk back radio type sound bites. One thing is true- kids copy their parents behaviour. Until we tackle the NZ macho culture of violence, alcohol and individual rights we will keep churning out aggressive kids.

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  18. Elijah Lineberry (306 comments) says:

    What I cannot understand about this proposal to send 12,000 bad working class people to parenting courses is this – if these chappies failed at school and learning the first time around why would they take any notice now?

    The other thing about which I am curious (I being someone widely criticised for dismissively sneering at working class people all the time) is why there is no extra training for teachers from ‘high income’ areas?

    Could it be that I sum certain groups of people (both rich and poor) up quite accurately? ;)

    http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com

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  19. Pete George (23,434 comments) says:

    “Previous governments over the last 30 to 40 years created the problem by devaluing and undermining marriage.”

    Yes, they made them do it. If only the government would fix everything, then parents wouldn’t have to do anything except enjoy good stable marriages and well behaved kids.

    Blame it on the government, it’s something we all have, God isn’t universal enough to be the chief scapegoat any more.

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  20. Lipo (229 comments) says:

    I would like to put my two cents worth in.
    I am a father of 2 children. Mr daughter is top of he class, has no behavioral problems and is doing well. My Son is the exact opposite. Struggles in class academically, behaves badly, and is generally troublesome. He is diagnosed and on medication for ADHD. He gets sent to the “thinking room” constantly, seems to be the only form of discipline the school has
    I have had numerous meetings with the school. The principal has told me that as a family we need to sort him out and get help.
    We have taken him to every person suggested.
    My gripe with Anne Tolley’s plan is
    1. My kids spends 6hrs at school, 6 waking hrs at home. The school has the same or if not more influence in his upbringing as I do
    2. Discipline is lacking at school. I asked the principle why they keep send him to the “thinking room” because it’s not working. I told him in my profession if something is not working, you don’t keep repeating the think that does not work. He had no answer.
    3. I have 2 kids, 1 great, 1 in trouble. Some how this parenting class will fix me?

    I trace all the problems back to removal of corporal punishment. School behaviour has deteriorated since then with aggressive kids, suspension etc all increasing.
    I do not think anything will change until the left wing liberals can see this
    Schools need to stand up and start advocating for change or otherwise thing are just going to get worse

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  21. Brian Smaller (4,007 comments) says:

    Until we tackle the NZ macho culture of violence, alcohol and individual rights we will keep churning out aggressive kids.

    I hope you mean rights without repsonibility or some other thing, because individual rights is what makes a free society.

    I think to your list though, we could add, clean up and change welfare.

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  22. getstaffed (9,186 comments) says:

    Careful and considerate discipline works, even here at kiwiblog.

    Greenfly repeatedly acted like a tsetse-fly maggot and was [at that stage permanently] banned.

    DPF’s punishment changed his/her behaviour and aforementioned commenter sneaked back, and is much improved… well for a leftie pseudo-troll that is.

    So suck it up social liberals – The discipline that you so fiercely reject works a treat on you… and it’ll work for kids when parents are given guidance of how help set workable boundaries.

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  23. getstaffed (9,186 comments) says:

    Lipo – re your son/daughter. Side issue I know, but something most of our schools don’t do at all well is implement gender-dependent teaching practices. Optimum leading for girls is in a room that is warmer than is optimum for boys. Boys need physical activity (pref short and quite energetic) every hour if their brains are to be optimally prepared to learn, while girls are fine learning in a sedentary state for longer. Notwithstanding this, all kids learn better when their brains are oxygenated via exercise.

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  24. s.russell (1,599 comments) says:

    Lipo,
    You are right that schools are part of the problem, and things should be done there too. But there are many parents who contribute as much if not more to their kids’ bad behaviour. You may not be one of them, but let’s do something about those who ARE a problem.
    Also: think through your own argument. If one kid is good and one bad but both have the same environment, then the lack of discipline at school is probably not the answer. If discipline is not working on him at home, then more at school is not likely to help.
    As for whacking kids with a strap. If only it were that simple…
    The abolition of corporal punishment is only one of a huge number of environmental changes that have affected child behavior. Most are irreversible. We need some new solutions here, not old ones.

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  25. backster (2,141 comments) says:

    LIPO is right. Governments and Education reformist have created this problem.. The proposal will be very expensive and will achieve very little, the parents selected will be mainly white and motivated by the law preventing them from doing their job properly. The last comment “No results will be seen for a decade” will ensure that the Government will herald it as an outstanding success right from the start, just as they will with the courts going onto the Marae and as they have done with the ridiculous ‘Family Group Conference’ scheme.. Same old, same old, fuzzy feel good, expensive bullshit.

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  26. Chuck Bird (4,835 comments) says:

    “I trace all the problems back to removal of corporal punishment. School behaviour has deteriorated since then with aggressive kids, suspension etc all increasing.”

    Corporal punishment will never be restored in schools so there is no point in trying to change that.

    This scheme seems like the government wants to appear to be doing something.

    I would like to know what parenting experience the teachers have and if they have had any how successful they have been in raising their own children. The same would apply to those who are meant to be teaching the teachers.

    For a start anyone who does know the difference between a smack on the bum and abuse has no business trying to tell other parents how to parent.

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  27. Alistair Miller (495 comments) says:

    Chuck, i think you meant “…anyone who DOESN”T know the difference…”

    There’s nothing like parking an ambulance at the bottom of a cliff, huh? It’s too late by the time they get to school. Here’s a counter proposal:

    The minute any parent afflicts any child with SFNS (Silly First Name Syndrome), CFYS immediately removes the child(ren) from the dangerous situation and the parent(s) are immediately sentenced to this type of parental training. The children are returned when the parents achieve a pass-mark for the parenting course, stop spending their benefits on booze/drugs/pokies and agree to ongoing spot-checks for a period (say, 3 years). The kids’ names are, of course, immediately changed to something sensible by Court Order.

    This would have the dual benefits of improving parenting skills and eradicating SFNS from society.

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  28. scanner (340 comments) says:

    Three words will solve the entire problem – Contraception – Sterilization – Abortion
    Most of these “problem” kids are the result of inbreds breeding with inbreds, as long as these typecast losers don’t have the brains to roll on a rubber, and we have have an upside down welfare system that actually encourages these muppets to breed, you will have “problem” kids
    As long as parental responsibility is on the list under smoking, drinking, and rooting we will live with this problem.
    The entire welfare system needs a frontal lobotomy to remove the cardy wearing tossers running it, it is meant to be a hand UP, not a hand OUT.
    Stop fucking around and go back to the root cause of the problems, more fences = less ambulances

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  29. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    scanner 4:13 pm,

    Three words will solve the entire problem – Contraception – Sterilization – Abortion

    That’s crap Scanner!
    Under the same regime, even if we hadn’t aborted 370,000 children, we would still suffer from disruptive kids at school (and elsewhere) – we would just have more of them. The problem isn’t primarily the parents, it’s the system that sets them up to fail.

    Parents have been systematically disempowered in the raising of their children. First corporal punishment was removed from schools, and now Bradford’s Bill has removed it from the home. Children are taught (in schools) to challenge ALL authority, especially of parents; they are encouraged to drink by dropping the drinking age; to have ‘safe sex’ with ready access to contraceptives, including abortion without their parents knowledge; encouraged to embrace other ‘lifestyle choices’ (homosexuality) as normal by the (re)education system, even if against their parents’ wishes; are NEVER told that abstinance until marriage is an option, or that sex outside marriage is WRONG, even if against their parents’ wishes. Do I need to go on?

    We have thrown out any pretense of morality as a society, and we wonder why our kids have no moral foundation, don’t respect authority, and are leading the world in youth suicide rates.

    Most of us over ~40, if we really think about it, know exactly where society has gone wrong – we had the benefit of growing up in an earlier age which is almost the opposite to the one confronting the youth of today. To simply reinstitute the system we grew up in would address 90% of the youth issues that confront us today.

    If this government is truly concerned about disruptive youths in school (and society in general) then they would chuck out Bradford’s Bill as a first step in giving power back to parents. Next would be to reintroduce an objective moral foundation and thereby ‘teach’ absolute right and wrong to our young people (and many adults) who have lost their way in a morally relativistic world.

    This stuff isn’t rocket science!

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  30. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    bchapman 2:15 pm,

    This is way too big a topic to reduce to a few talk back radio type sound bites. One thing is true- kids copy their parents behaviour. Until we tackle the NZ macho culture of violence, alcohol and individual rights we will keep churning out aggressive kids.

    I believe violence in children is primarily a result of ‘no consequence’ parenting (and teaching in schools).
    If boundaries aren’t rigorously enforced for children, then they go off the rails.

    Ready access to alcohol, and the emphasis of individual rights over the rights of others only builds upon the foundation of no consequence parenting.

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  31. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George (Cerium) 2:28 pm,

    “Previous governments over the last 30 to 40 years created the problem by devaluing and undermining marriage.”

    Yes, they made them do it. If only the government would fix everything, then parents wouldn’t have to do anything except enjoy good stable marriages and well behaved kids.
    Blame it on the government, it’s something we all have, God isn’t universal enough to be the chief scapegoat any more.

    Parents, while holding some responsibility, are still a subset of ‘the system’. The system sets them up to fail from the very start. Successive governments (especially the one we had for the last nine years) have removed any negative stigma associated with pregnancy outside of marriage; we have devalued marriage (de facto, civil union, same sex); promoted promiscuity by the ‘safe sex’ lie; abortion is just another means of contraception; we pay single mothers to become ‘baby factories'; we have removed men form their responsiblities as fathers and role models; and removed corporal punishment from first the schools and then the home.

    So yes, we can, I believe, blame it on government(s).
    And your reference to God highlights the fact that society has turned its back on Him and His word; so rather than God being a scapegoat for the predicament we find ourselves in, it is more likely because we have removed Him from society that we are where we are today. IMHO.

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  32. scanner (340 comments) says:

    Kris, Abortion may have a wee bit harsh,
    This problem is not new, 3 or 4 decades of interference beginning with the Dr Spock generation (whose dubious parenting skills resulted in his sons suicide) are finally coming home to roost in our yard.
    Sadly many of these kids are either the “by-product” of sex, or are bred as “meal tickets” for yet another generation of welfare dependent parents.
    We can be proud of our welfare system, it has created 2nd & 3rd generation beneficiaries and we just keep getting better at it.
    How many posters on this blog would comfortably walk through the center of our major cities late at night ? the bulk of the scum that cause the problems in our society are welfare dependent – why?
    Disciplining children at school is an exercise in futility if the moment they walk out the gate it stops.
    Time to go back to the start on the whole welfare state crap, before it destroys the little we have left, some one must have the balls to break this cycle, before we consign another generation to the bin.

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  33. Fletch (6,253 comments) says:

    I agree with Lipo – there has been a gradual behavioral decline ever since corporal punishment was removed from schools.
    I’m not surprised it’s the boy playing up; years of feminism have contributed to a style of teaching children that benefits girls more than boys in the classroom. There are hardly any male role models that boys can look to as teachers, either. The male teacher is a dying breed.

    The proposed parental classes are not compulsory, either. So the parents who should be going, won’t.

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  34. Pete George (23,434 comments) says:

    They should have the right role models and the right behavioural habits before they get to school. Then they wouldn’t be a problem. The government can’t be a role model. It has to be parents foremost, with the support and help of family and friends. And maybe with a bit of state assistance. Maybe Plunket nurses could be utilised a lot more.

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  35. DJP6-25 (1,362 comments) says:

    Kris K (571) As to the primary cause, you’ve hit the nail on the head in your last paragraph.

    cheers

    Dasvid Prosser

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