Protesting against no more free silk scarf painting classes
October 21st, 2009 at 10:00 am by David FarrarThe Herald reports:
About 70 people, including 20 Opposition MPs, protested outside Parliament yesterday over the cuts to adult and community education funding. …
In May’s Budget, funding for adult community education was cut from $16 million to $3 million, with the Government saying it paid for hobby courses. There has been intense criticism of the cut, with opponents saying courses will be slashed.
Of course if people wish to still learn how to dye their silk scarves, or learn Moroccan cooking, they can still do so. But they will pay for the course, instead of forcing everyone else to fund it for them.
Education Minister Anne Tolley said that with the recession the Government was focusing on foundation skills such as literacy, numeracy and language courses.
Focusing on literacy and numeracy instead of Moroccan cooking. What is the world coming to.
October 21st, 2009 at 10:08 am
In parliament yesterday Tolley also criticised relationship courses – does she think they are a waste of time/money too?
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 10:08 am
DPF
you do the ACE people a great disservice as you know full well the courses aren’t just Thai cooking and silk scarf dyeing.
I agree that $40 million is a lot of money.
But I also wonder how much, our MP’s have rorted us of in the last 10yrs that we’ll never know about?
Maybe if parliamentary services is open to the OIA retrospectively, I might believe them a little more.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 10:12 am
Freeloaders of the world, unite!
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 10:18 am
53k+ signatures. I am prejudiced. I worked in the field of rural adult education in a programme set up by an enlightened National Minister of Education Les Gandar. Continued by Merv Wellington, Lockwood Smith, Wyatt Creech and Nick Smith. And most of the stories I am seeing are not middle class. Have a look at this one :- http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2009/10/17/dont-forget-the-night-class-cuts/
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 10:25 am
The social capital nationally of the ACE finding is being ignored by National to save $40million.
Vote:How much is John Key’s cycleway going to cost?
October 21st, 2009 at 10:28 am
I’ve been teaching ECE classes in Spanish – there are lots of benefits from them but the benefits don’t justify taxpayers paying for them.
Ele Ludemann
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 10:35 am
Go National!
Here I was thinking they’re a spineless and unprincipled bunch who would rather sink NZ’s future at the rate of $1B a month, than do what is required to put us on the road to prosperity.
How wrong I was. $13M. A full 4 hours worth of accumulating National debt. Well done John Keyless. Easy though, little steps Johnny, you’ve got to walk before you can run.
You do want to run, don’t you, Johnny?
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 10:40 am
So Mike, your thesis is that when you are having to borrow $250m a week to balance the books what’s another $40m between friends.
And while we’re at it why don’t we just double ACC ‘entitlements’ which of course are written in stone.
Plonker
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 10:43 am
The sycophantic applause in parliament yesterday when every petition announced in Parliament in support of adult education courses was quite frankly sickening.
The focus on literacy and numeracy is correct. Should a person want to take up a hobby course, then they can do so. A local library is a veritable goldmine of information on cooking and other hobbies. The internet is another. Any literate person can learn anything at a minimal cost. In some cases, the only cost is time. The current fiscal situation of the country is such that we can only focus on what is needed. Most people understand this.
Trevor, you may have 53000 signatures on a petition, but please understand that many of these courses are a luxury that we cannot afford. The money should go where it is needed, not where it is wanted. I know not all courses are Hobby Courses, but music appreciation courses, foreign language courses, cooking courses, relationship courses, craft courses, DIY workshops. These are not a necessity.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 10:43 am
Well Trevor, if those people want to continue their adult education, then they are free to pay for it themselves.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 10:43 am
I appreciated the TV news pointing out that the protesters were almost outnumbered by Labour MPs.
53,000 wouldn’t have been that hard to get given how much taxpayer money was spent flying Labour MPs to ever town in the country to stand in the High St and drum up support for their petition by telling whopping great fibs.
I was alarmed to see Rick Barker in my own local village eliciting support for the petition, some hundreds of kilometres from his own (former) electorate.
Hey Trevor, if there’s such a groundswell of emotional support for your ACE campaign then why is Labour suffering so badly in the polls?
The answer is: you’ve backed a pup.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 10:48 am
Here’s some of the ACE courses that taxpayers currently fund:-
1. Oamaru Limestone Sculpture and Design
2. Embroidery – Hardanger
3. Floristry – Bunches and Bouquets
4. Leadlight
5. Scrapbooking for Beginners
6. Zany Knitters
7. Art Enthusiasts Workshop
8. Adventures in Acrylic Painting
9. Ferro Cement Sculpture
10. Introduction to Espresso
11. Treaty of Waitangi
12. Community Fitness with Pole (Nordic) Walking (Advanced)
13. Women’s ‘Fix your Own Car’
14. Flax Root Documentary
15. Belly dance
16. Cake Decorating
17. Indian Folk Dance – Bollywood style
18. Model Boat Building
19. Tai Chi – Advanced (Wu style)
.. and the list could go on. If 100 people want to learn Belly Dancing then let them pay their ‘training’, and not expect 2 million taxpayers to pick up the cost.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 10:54 am
10. Introduction to Espresso
Shit I have to make my own each morning. I could have taken a class and you guys could have paid for it.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 10:55 am
Why the hell should I fund adult numeracy and literacy courses?
I already pay for education, I already subsidise tertiary education, I already subsidise student loans.
If there are Kiwi’s who did not take advantage of their free education then that is tough luck, I am stuffed if I want to pay for them to have a second crack at it.
[DPF: Someone who can not read or write will probably spend most of their life in prison or on welfare and cost taxpayers a six to seven figure sum. Unless you inhabit a fantasy world where the welfare state is abolished, it will save taxpayers a huge amount of money teaching illiterate adults how to read and write]
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 10:58 am
Roger
Got the first part but the second part has no bearing as I support a restructuring of ACC but not for future sale.
There must be a course somewhere for making plonk, try it you may be surprised.
Big bruv
Vote:I can see your position clearly, does that mean you wouldn’t support trade and education in prisons?
October 21st, 2009 at 10:58 am
I love this issue… Every time the TV News people talk to someone pissed about the cuts, it turns out that they’re “studying” belly dancing or something similarly ludicrous. It’s almost free advertising for the National government… An issue where 99% of the population will be cheering the government on for eliminating waste and making people pay for their own hobbies, while the 1% opposed are mostly Labour MPs, hangers on, and the terminally hopeless.
Then, just when it couldn’t get any better, Trevor wades in here with a link to someone moaning because the government isn’t going to subsidise their hobby courses in digital “camera” (presumably photography, rather than the camera itself) and Oamaru stone carving. He is beyond parody and if I were National’s communications staff I’d be calling the media and trying to set up an on air interview with Trevor’s student of camera.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:00 am
A vocal minority moan and whinge. The (vast) silent majority shakes their heads. Labour rushes to support the former.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:06 am
Vladimir Mallard and the charge by the 53,000. Balaclava revisited.
Trevor, there were only forty thousand casualties at Waterloo. You’ve excelled yourself. Now off you go and bury your dead.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:10 am
Trevor, you could get 100k signatures for “free beer every friday”. Doesn’t make it a good idea.
I wonder how many of those 53k+ signatories are net tax payers? NZ is in serious danger of doing an Easter Island. So many bludgers and so few producers.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:14 am
All very fair points. Nice optional extras are just less important than heart operations during a recession.
This would have been easier to swallow if Nats had not just massively increased public top-up funding of expensive private schools, so that the very rich can now send their little dears to EVEN BETTER schools than those the rest of us hardworking taxpayers can afford, courtesy of me. Nice optional extras for the rich National voting set are clearly not off the agenda just because of the recession.
DPF’s repetitive and jeering comments about “scarf dyeing” would be easier to swallow is the man showed some signs that he has any interests AT ALL beyond his work and his occasional weekends on the Barrier… ANYTHING that would suggest he has any perspective AT ALL from which to judge the worth or worthlessness of some of these things that he is so outspokenly pooh-pooing.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:17 am
I agree with Trevor.
Although by mutual consent I do not support or endorse him.
I invite anyone to actually find out which courses are being cut and how many people who are trying to get themselves off benefits are being dumped part way through their courses before jumping on the DPF party line bandwagon. you’ll are looking a lot like NuLabour to me.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:17 am
You right wing fruit loop bastards. Community Fitness with Pole (Nordic) Walking (Advanced) is a basic human right.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:22 am
[DPF: Someone who can not read or write will probably spend most of their life in prison or on welfare and cost taxpayers a six to seven figure sum. Unless you inhabit a fantasy world where the welfare state is abolished, it will save taxpayers a huge amount of money teaching illiterate adults how to read and write]
Then what we need in this rapidly emerging third world nation is a bloody good dose of personal responsibility, at the moment one can cruise through school safe in the knowledge that if they do not take advantage of he education I pay for they can spend their life on the dole.
Why should we just accept that we have no option?, why should we accept that nothing will change?
Give me a leader or a political party brave enough to make a real attempt to change our national mindset, we can change things, all it takes is somebody brave enough and somebody who does not have the name John.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:29 am
I agree with Murray and Brian Smaller.
RRM
We pay 12k a year per child after 39% and 12% and all the money in education taxes we get no benefit off of.
I think Key didn’t go far enough.
He should have allowed either a reimbursement of the state tax we pay per child or allowed a tax rebate per child that doesn’t cost the state anything because we pay for it.
$40 million was peanuts.
Besides which state schools are deliberately underfunded which is a travesty.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:31 am
MikeNZ – are you saying it was an increase from Zero to $40 million???
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:32 am
Big bruv
I can see your position clearly, does that mean you wouldn’t support trade and education in prisons?
Damn right.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:34 am
What is funny – is that only 70 people turned up to the protest including 20 Opposition MPs. Who were the other 50? nion Hacks and Labour Party staffers. The reality is that no one cares too much about these courses or having ot pay a bit more to attend a course for their hobby.
More evidence of Labour not connecting – no wonder they are headed for 20.8% in the next election.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:38 am
9 years of labour inspired debaucherous excess has given people an expectation of free entitlements paid for by others.
Labour really did believe money grows on trees.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:50 am
Yeah, when you highlight cases like belly dancying, scarf painting etc, it certainly sounds like wasted funding. But you can’t disregard some of the difficult to pinpoint benefits. I listened to an inspiring young Maori or Pacific island woman on the radio the other day (yes, RadioNZ…) who was noting the benefits of adult education in impoverished communities in encouraging younger generations to learn. By cutting all programs the government may have destroyed some programmes that were actually achieving results. Plus, perhaps a long shot, one of those scarf painters could set up a business one day. Finally, finding activities for people to do might not be a bad thing. Depression cost’s a lot to society — activities like this are a way for people to get together and learn new skills. I mean does anybody have the figures on this adult education in terms of actual cost. Its probably a pittance compared to what we spend on consultants in the health industry for example.
Lets not forget the fact the the Young Achievers scholarship has also been scrapped — this scholarship was awarded to litererally the brightest scholars in the country — but it seems that we don’t want to support these people either…
And back on a socialist rant, again from the tainted RadioNZ source, why cut a program for free fruit in some schools, or get rid of Enviroschools — a program which encouraged students to network, think innovatively and apply their minds to real world problems. I work in science, and this is the kind of person everyone (FoRST people etc.) is saying we need– hello!! Literacy and numeracy are of course important but we live in a different world now, we shouldn’t be afraid of new programs — the traditional school education system is not exactly a utopia, is it??
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:51 am
RRM
Vote:I didn’t state anything but $40 million was peanuts.
October 21st, 2009 at 11:52 am
Most people do understand this, in respect of ACE courses… but how many of those people have entitlement elsewhere? How many are currently supping on widened welfare entitlements, ACC, WFF etc etc?
Labour’s last decade has seen a bourgeoning “what’s in it for me” entitlement class. Each person hooked on one or more entitlement is less likely to vote what best for the long term of the country, and more likely to vote what’s most comfortable for them short term.
This ACE issue only scratches the surface of a now-cultural problem that must be addressed if we are to arrest our now measurable slide into a dreamy, poor South Pacific economy.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:53 am
Question for BlackMoss.
Why does it have to be the Government that bears responsibility for every aspect of a citizen’s life. Their health, education, employment, training, weight, nutrition etc etc? Where do YOU draw the line where peronal responsibility stops and community responsibility begins?
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 11:54 am
This would have been easier to swallow if Nats had not just massively increased public top-up funding of expensive private schools, so that the very rich can now send their little dears to EVEN BETTER schools
Well we could subsidise education slightly for those in private schools, or pay for it fully in public schools. Which would cost the taxpayer more? I believe the argument was that in this recission, a lot of private school kids have been withdrawn and sent to public schools, and if this were to continue the costs to the taxpayer would just be too much.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 12:05 pm
recession. I don’t type like i talk, yet.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 12:07 pm
David,
Well, it doesn’t I suppose, but it becomes hard to distinguish when one thing does come to impact on a core government service (we could argue about core government services too I spose). So lets take health and nutrition — diabetes, heart attacks, diet related illnesses clearly cost the health system a lot of money. Therefore it makes sense to spend on preventative medicine rather than the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. Or, compulsory wearing of helmets — it saves people getting brain damaged, which is a big cost to society.
I accept if you’re an independent type, able to make your own way, it probably seems like a whole lot of rules and money taken from your hard earned wages. I guess it comes down to how much you accept you’re part of a society, and whether we have a responsibility to help everyone in that society.
I do think you have to be careful though in encouraging a hand-out mentality. I think we have to do both, we have to encourage personal responsibility and try to educate people. But then things like adult education do imply some individual responsibility — the person finds out about the course and goes along to it, I think its acceptable to provide money that allows that to happen. Its a hard equation — I am aware of the propensity of people to tap into a gravy train when one is provided. Maybe a grant system for people with bright ideas, but then you have the beuracracy…
Questions for you:
Vote:Do you feel you are part of a society?
Do you have a responsibility to help all those in society?
October 21st, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Stephen
“Well we could subsidise education slightly for those in private schools, or pay for it fully in public schools. Which would cost the taxpayer more? I believe the argument was that in this recession, a lot of private school kids have been withdrawn and sent to public schools, and if this were to continue the costs to the taxpayer would just be too much”.
Your position doesn’t make logical sense.
Those parents who have moved their children to state schools from private schools were paying twice and now they are only paying once, but they are paying!
If you’re going down the what costs the taxpayer more route?
Who costs more, people who pay 39% tax and then pay for private schools or people who don’t earn and have kids in school?
The fairest thing would be for parents of private school children to be able to claim that costs (fees) off of their taxable income.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 12:12 pm
“Do you feel you are part of a society?
Do you have a responsibility to help all those in society?”
This first question isnt a question, it is a pre-emptive accusation which will apply if you answer the second question incorrectly.
The second question is a bit silly too. I do feel a responsibility to help those in society who need help. But your question doesnt ask that. It states that we should feel responsible for ALL people in society. It is exactly that kind of mindset that leads to universal welfare, such as WFF, and makes the government the default provider.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 12:12 pm
“The fairest thing would be for parents of private school children to be able to claim that costs (fees) off of their taxable income.”
RRM likes this
Simple and fair.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 12:14 pm
What about adding a free do-it-youself lobotomy course for politicians
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 12:17 pm
When are all the useless courses at university going to be slashed?
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 12:20 pm
sorry typing to fast for my brain and trying to email at the same time. silly.
should have been – their
Also I don’t mean all the extras (just the fees) which can be $300 a term a child for us.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Scanner
but to think carefully and vote even more so.
Vote:I don’t want them to be lobotomised
After thinking through the intended and unintended consequences of the law they are voting on, whilst applying common sense.
Surely that is not too much to ask do you think?
October 21st, 2009 at 12:23 pm
What’s useless Pete?
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 12:29 pm
You mean those course that people PAY for?
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 12:54 pm
there are some other side-effects to all of this.
My sister-in-law runs an ACE center. The problems they are seeing is that by removing funding, the courses are then considered by the ACE people to be too expensive (I disagree). However when you consider what the adult students were paying when subsidised (like $20 a term) vs what they would need to pay without state subsidy (about $150) then the obvious question is “how serious about these classes are the students if they won’t pay a measly $150 for them” and “why should the taxpayer pay for something the student isn’t willing to pay for even though the student gets the benefit of it”, etc.
So one must conclude that if students aren’t serious enough about the courses to actually pay for them, then they must indeed be hobby courses.
So I fully support this move and argued with my wife about this, however the side-effect will likely be job-losses in the ACE infrastructure. This will lessen the savings from the cuts, since the ACE tutors will go on the dole. There are thousands of those…
Or they could get real and charge realistically for their services, which would then force commercial reality on it. If the courses are really worth while, they should be paid for, if they aren’t deemed worth-while enough for students to pay for, then they don’t deserve to exist and certainly don’t deserve to drain the taxpayer. Mind you applying the same argument to tertiary study doesn’t work.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Kimble,
C’mon, the first question is definitely a question and one that everyone can find their own answer to. I’m not trying to set people up through some socratic trick or anything. I’m genuinely interested in how people view the world. I think the “all” in the second question is important, it means we extend our responsibility beyond a certain in-group to include ‘all’. I’m not necessarily talking about anything practical here, its a philosophical question, how do you place yourself in the world? From another angle, is individualism valid?
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 1:10 pm
ADC
Vote:why not?
October 21st, 2009 at 1:19 pm
BlackMoss said
“Questions for you:
Do you feel you are part of a society?
Do you have a responsibility to help all those in society?”
Answers – absolutely. Regardless of their level of participation, everyone is part of “society”
– No. They key lies in the word all. If i was devout Christian I might have been tempted to consider “yes” as an answer (Brother’s keeper etc) but I believe firmly in personal and familial responsibility. It is a parent’s responsibility to encourage their child to raise its education levels by taking full advantage of the facilities provided by the state. If they are really keen and are willing to put in more, they will find a way to make it happen. Too many don’t however just as they don’t give adequate attention to their child’s nutrician and general welfare. Does this mean that poorly cared for children should be left to die in squalor? Of course not They should be taqken from their parents and given to someone who will care fior them and love them and see to their needs. Does it mean that I should fund taxpayer support for someone who wants to feel good by taking a course as an adult that is not directly associated with them getting a job (ie becoming a contributing member of society)? then a resounding no would be my answer.
My line then falls in a different place to yours.
On a related issue thencan you answer this.
Should the taxpayer fund brothel visits for unmarried and unemployed persons who have low self esteem on he grounds that it makes them feel worthwhile and good about themselves?
For the full description of “feelgood” see the post of a “constituent” by Trevor Mallard at Red Alert.
Warning … logic rather than personal attitudes towards prostitutes and the sex industry should be considered carefully when framing your answer.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 1:22 pm
David
Vote:Shame on you, why discriminate against married and employed people as ACE doesn’t?
October 21st, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Typical for the Labour party to state via Phil Goff… “Community night classes were a tradition in New Zealand, he said” does he not remember his party actively trying to do the same thing four years ago.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Bachelor of Arts
Ancient History | Anthropology | Art History | Asian Studies | Chinese | Classical Studies | Criminology | Dance* | Drama | Economics | Education | Employment Relations and Organisation Studies | English | English Language Acquisition and Linguistics | Ethics | Ethnomusicology* | European Studies | Film, Television and Media Studies | French | Geography | German | Greek | History | Italian | Japanese | Korean | Latin | Latin American Studies* | Linguistics | Linguistics and English Language Teaching | Logic and Computation | Māori Studies | Mathematics | Medieval and Early Modern European Studies* | Music | Music Education* | Pacific Studies | Philosophy | Political Studies | Psychology | Samoan* | Social Science for Public Health | Sociology | Spanish | Statistics | Tongan* | Women’s Studies | Writing Studies
Oh, look, some foreign languages. And old old stuff. Music (not ukulele though).
Biblical Studies | Christian Thought and History | Practical Theology
etc etc
If they paid for them universities wouldn’t need funding would they? Wouldn’t need to fund loans. Wouldn’t need student allowances.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 1:56 pm
If they will pay for those courses, will they pay for my soccer club fees? I learn ball skills, surely that is justifiable for taxpayer funding?????
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 2:00 pm
If you’re going down the what costs the taxpayer more route?
Who costs more, people who pay 39% tax and then pay for private schools or people who don’t earn and have kids in school?
The fairest thing would be for parents of private school children to be able to claim that costs (fees) off of their taxable income.
Yes I should’ve differentiated between ‘taxpayer’ and ‘government’ in this case.
Tricksy tax stuff – what does the second point mean? Does it mean you get the cost of fees back? Think Brash wanted to do the equivalent with student loans, not that I knew what that meant then either.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 2:01 pm
RRM at 11:14 am
“This would have been easier to swallow if Nats had not just massively increased public top-up funding of expensive private schools, so that the very rich can now send their little dears to EVEN BETTER schools than those the rest of us hardworking taxpayers can afford, courtesy of me. Nice optional extras for the rich National voting set are clearly not off the agenda just because of the recession. ”
You don’t get it do you????? The parents of those children pay taxes too and they get less money spent on those children than the public school children. You’re preaching envy politics.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Brian Marshall at 2:01pm:
Cry me a river. I don’t have children and I pay tax too. Also:
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/10/protesting_against_no_more_free_silk_scarf_painting_classes.html#comment-622149
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 2:31 pm
David,
Couldn’t find the “feel good” blog on the Red Alert, try to steer clear of that propaganda anyway. On the strictly logical argument I would have to say OK to the prostititutes for self-esteem if it was shown to work and get people productive in their jobs or happier and I guess at the same time its supporting an industry of a kind. The specifics of the situation may be arguable however. I would guess that in our current society people would feel some measure of guilt or deviance in visiting a prostitute so it wouldn’t necessarily boost the self esteem IMO.
I accept your answer on the bottom line question regarding people’s responsibility to supporting, or trying to make life better for others. On one level, it does seem bizarre to fund an education program for someone else on something that may be frivilous at best. My arguments about these things aren’t particularly well thought out necessarily. I do believe though that it would be better, simply for our own happiness, to care more about the situation of others, particularly people who have had a tough start. $150 is simply beyond the expendable income of many poor people or elderly. Too much of an individual approach gives rise to too much competitiveness — it seems like different demographics are all fighting for resources — older people are saving for retirement, younger people want to buy a house and get established, immigrant groups fighting for the scraps at the bottom, people want to buy in a certain area to get access to a certain school, the elderly are just viewed as an economic drain… sometimes I feel like I’m in some kind of battle… It’s all a bit of self-fulfilling prophesy, we look out for ourselves thus creating a world where it only pays to look after ourselves.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Based on figures supplied by the Labour party the cost per person is $59 on average for an ACE course. Most of those bitching about losing their subsidy were the ones ” learning ” sword fighting or belly dancing but my favourite was the old guy who could afford to have holidays in Italy but wanted me to pay for him to learn how to cook Italian meals. Bloody parasites.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 3:01 pm
And that BlackMoss is a really good reason why I should be allowed to express my generosity (or otherwise) through my own charitable acts and you should be allowed to express yours and that the state should back off. I am positing that a lesser Gummint involvement does not preclude assistance being offered by individuals who feel the need.
My point about personal responsibility remains however and I suppose it is a response to a feeling that the welfare dependancy/entitlement mentality pendulum has swung too far and is in need of a correction. The upshot may well be that it might swing back too far the other way (as pendulums/pendula?) are wont to do in which case either another branch of the welfare state will pick up the pieces or there will be another correction to the generosity of funding from the state.
Somehow we need to increase the willingness of the population to care for their own needs. Talking about it doesn’t help so the withdrawal of support may well be a requirement to sheet home that responsibility. At the risk of being deemed a racist, this does appear to be correlated to certain racial groups who impose a larger burden on the state per head of population than others. Perhaps therein also lies one of the difficulties with dealing with it but that part of the debate is wandering away from the fluffy issues surrounding adult education.
BTW the post on Red Alert I was referring to was Trevor Mallard’s posting of a letter from a constituent who had run the full gamut of courses over many years in what appeared to be a rather aimless exercise in self discovery.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 3:19 pm
I’m with you on personal responsibility for sure. And the public sector does have to be watched very closely because there are no external imperatives as with business.
To wander away from the fluffy issues just to say my perspective on the racial inequivalence, I’m hoping that with respect to Maori participation in our society, the recent rise of the Maori party, a separate ministry, and redressing of land grievances should theoretically start to give results, as long as the people involved are prepared to take the long view, and don’t just spread the money amongst a few. I have generally heard good stories about Ngai Tahu in this respect. Interestingly, some of the successful Maori (musicians, scientists) I have met have come from Maori immersion schools, which I would not automatically agree with. But if it gives results, then maybe its the way forward… We have to look at the way our culture is geared, and why some groups choose not to buy into it. I would also support basic Maori in schools for everybody to learn, but that’s just a personal fancy not something I would want to force on anybody.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Just noticed that Trev “the Muss” has removed the post from Red Alert that I was referring to. Perhaps he got someone to read it out loud to him and realised what it was actually saying.
Sorry to have sent you on a chase for a goose BlackMoss
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Interesting that you zero on Moari BlackMoss, was thinking more of immigrants from near Pacific States, many of whom have not had suffucient exposure to education themselves to appreciate where it can lead and thus fail to make it an imperative in their children’s upbringing.
Vote:Perhaps it is another case where something that is free has no perceived value. Please note I am generalising here and do not categorise every PI as uneducated. Just a higher proportion than say Asian immigrants.
October 21st, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Yeah, for some reason, I seem to notice pacific islanders that are doing well in some form, perhaps because of sports or music. I always took it to be the fact that pacific island communities can maintain a strong community outlook with church events and such and so people growing up have some structure and feel part of things. I’ve thought immigrants in general tend to show initiative– I mean, they’ve already made a move to try to improve their situation. Shows how difficult it is to argue from anecdotal observations though I spose…
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Pete George at 1.55 asked what’s useless from a range of subjects for BA.
In Pete’s list women’s studies are obviously useless and politically motivated crap. Social science for public health is a waste. It might be justified as an add-on course for medical schools, otherwise it’s just helping to bloat the bureaucracy that chokes our health system. Employment relations and organisation belongs at most in a polytechnic, but why should the state train trade unionists even in polytechnics?
You would have to query “film, television, and media studies” (how many film and media critics jobs are there in NZ?). I’ve always thought art history a bit of a luxury given how many gallery curators and art critic jobs the country has, but then Denis Dutton of Arts & Letters Daily teaches this so perhaps I’m wrong. I would throw out writing studies in favour of literature, but on the other hand some people think the English-speaking world needs scores of thousands of new novels to be pulped every year, with average readership of 20 to 40. We all know that Shakespeare and Milton wouldn’t have made it if they were self-taught, don’t we?
Dance and drama are fine but ought to be in specialist schools.
NZ lags in language skills, but Samoan, with stuff all literature and a tiny population belongs in polytechnics and night classes rather than a university.
Education was better in the specialist teachers’ colleges before Labour, the party of teachers, consolidated these in universities as part of its drive to upgrade primary teacher pay and status.
Junk courses in Pete’s list create junk BAs with bugger all job prospects and big chips on their shoulders – and a lot of student debt.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 5:34 pm
A very good question. Why couldn’t we chart a course to offer world-leading Uni education is a small set of disciplines (Agriculture, Livestock genetics, Digital animation & movie industry, and a few others?) and drop everything else from the state-funded menu?
If we stopped being generalists in a world that collectively produces better grads in almost every area, and concentrated our effort in being global experts in just a few domains, would this be better for our future? I suspect so.
Try reading The Dip by Seth Godin. Some great stuff in there about specialist vs generalist, and the physiology of winning. Targeted at individuals, but principles therein equally relevant for businesses and whole countries.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Oops. That should read “and the psychology of winning”.
Vote:October 21st, 2009 at 9:48 pm
So, are we going to the ask for the money back from private schools, such as King’s and St Cuth’s? That was the same amount as ACE cuts
Vote:October 22nd, 2009 at 8:31 am
Tolley BANS Art, Science, and PE in schools (physical education that is, not pseudo ephedrine). Hahaha, I hope you’re joking.
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