Stupidity

October 20th, 2009 at 7:52 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

A group of School students will apologise to staff at the Auckland War Memorial Museum today and explain why they were bowing and saluting before Nazi symbols.

The photos – uploaded to a social networking website – showed them kissing a swastika, bowing before a Nazi banner and making a Nazi salute at an exhibition.

I don’t know what is more stupid – the bowing and saluting to swastikas, or the uploading of photos showing such activities to the Internet.

The former is incredibly dumb and offensive, while the latter is quite simply moronic. What did they think would happen?

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154 Responses to “Stupidity”

  1. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    This is being blown out of all proportion.
    They are young testosterone filled stupid boys.
    Not a National event.
    How many of those on the trip do they represent and in their school?

    Smack their bums and make their Dads pay a fine to a Jewish charity.
    Worse still force them to have lunch with Joris de whatever and write an essay on the conversation.

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  2. jackp (668 comments) says:

    When Sue Bradford said she will continue fighting, this is what she is fighting for.

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  3. starboard (2,563 comments) says:

    What did they think would happen?

    ..this is the problem now days…they have been dumbed down not to think…thanks Helen..

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  4. dad4justice (6,594 comments) says:

    Blut und Boden. The Herald is good shit paper.

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  5. Murray (8,803 comments) says:

    I’ve seen the photos, this is nothing to do with being a “Nazi stunt” as the media are claiming or anti-semitic. They were being dickheads.

    Part of growing up is learning what is and what isn’t apropriate. These boys need a whoping and some growing up time, preferebly running around the lower field with their school bags held over their heads chanting I am a juvinile dickhead in front of the rest of the school with the girls in the front row. Nothing like a little ritualised public humiliation to help educate.

    Put the Jewish council back in its box, they’re not required.

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  6. the deity formerly known as nigel6888 (717 comments) says:

    They’re from Grammar, they don’t care what you think.

    Daddy will get them a good lawyer, and the Headmaster will look stern and statesmanlike but do nothing whatsoever.

    This is how the scions of the plutocracy have ever behaved. Witness the fiasco at the rugby match a couple of months ago. grammar boys incite an incident, but the other team gets punished.

    tough old world, best we learn the lesson soon.

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  7. menace (402 comments) says:

    Stupid little munters. lol.
    I’m not sure if that generation is quite so well informed or indoctrinated on the subject as some of our older generations were.
    As for it being Helen’s handy work…. I’d say more like they saw a picture of that guy with the mustache and mistook it for key which unfortunately has a little to much to do with kiwi.

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  8. the deity formerly known as nigel6888 (717 comments) says:

    and no, I’m not saying that grammar boys are all secret fascists. I am saying that they are a bunch of chinless born to rule apes with no manners whatsoever. But this is how chinless apes from the aristocracy have always behaved.

    Us peasants aren’t invited to have an opinion, so we can all f++k off.

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  9. radvad (734 comments) says:

    What MikeNZ said. Larriken boys being stupid. Of course none of the self righteous naysayers have never done anything stupid before.

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  10. Danyl Mclauchlan (941 comments) says:

    Give them a break, they’re just a bunch of kids.

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  11. menace (402 comments) says:

    Danyl Mclauchlan: roger.
    as if a bunch of average school kids actually want to go out and incinerate “niggers” and jews

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  12. Put it away (2,872 comments) says:

    Teenagers assume the entire population of the Internet is other teenagers…

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  13. Murray (8,803 comments) says:

    They’ve got their break, we’re not going to lynch them as anti-semites.

    Now they get their lumps for being dickheads in public. Being given a free ride for being “kids” is why we’re in the shit state we are. They have rights, now they get the fun part of that deal which is the responsibilities that go with rights.

    We;come to the real world, gravity not negiotible.

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  14. labrator (1,851 comments) says:

    The naughtier you make something, the more juveniles are going to do it. Like drinking, smoking and joy riding. The whole “you can never dress up as Nazis” thing has gone a bit too far and has now turned into one of those things you’re not supposed to do, hence why it happens all the time. They’ll all get their education when they do their OE.

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  15. Right of way is Way of Right (883 comments) says:

    Each of these kids should be required to give an address at an ANZAC day service next year, which they should research. Then when they address the ranks of the veterans in their own words, that should be humbling enough so that they will never again think that this is an issue to take lightly.

    Yes, they are stupid kids, but they have to learn from this.

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  16. Richard Hurst (885 comments) says:

    Gee whiz, it seems teenage boys from high income families are just as stupid as teenage boys from low income families. What a surprise..not.

    Real question is: Where was the teacher supervision? Grabbing a coffee perhaps? Chatting on a cellphone? Hmmm..I think not just the boys should be getting a talking to from the school principle.

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  17. homepaddock (408 comments) says:

    Children do stupid things. It’s not news.

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  18. Whaleoil (650 comments) says:

    Back in my day at Grammar that would have been “6 of the best” either from John Graham or Johnny Hume, and then the parents called in. Most preferred DJ to little Johnny’s canings.

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  19. beerguts (21 comments) says:

    I tend to agree this has been blown out of proportion – something not unusual in the media these days.

    I’m picking they haven’t been educated on the holocaust and this is an ignorant action boys of that age tend to take part in.

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  20. coventry (322 comments) says:

    No different from the ganster wannabe’s that want to ‘pop a cap in your ass’.

    Just kids being kids, need a good quick swift kick up the arse, pity we can’t do that discipline thing anymore – Thanks Sue !

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  21. Bob (445 comments) says:

    I agree with a lot of the comments that the boys concerned are just being thoughtless teenagers, dickheads if you like. The events of world war 2 were happening 65 years ago. That is ancient history and irrelevant to the lives of young people under 20. I’d like to see an educational party made up of local Jews, ex soldiers, holocaust survivors and others who could go around giving talks at high schools. It might help them appreciate the freedom and rights they have here.

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  22. slightlyrighty (2,096 comments) says:

    Beerguts. One hopes that they have not been educated about the holocaust. It would be so much worse if they had been. Having said that, 14 year old boys have a habit of behaving in inappropriate ways. If we would all think back to when we were that age I’m sure that we could all point to actions taken then that we wish we could take back. Of course, we did not have youtube to give us the opportunity to give our own actions such publicity.

    However, when I was 14, some 28 years ago, we were held much more accountable for our actions than the youth of today.
    (and with that statement, I have now achieved ‘old fart’ status!). It does need to be illustrated how offensive their behaviour has been. Speaking as the son of parents who lived through the German occupation of western Europe during WWII, they have no idea.

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  23. KiwiGreg (3,278 comments) says:

    Major media beat up for a bunch of boys being dickheads.

    They’ve done nothing illegal.

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  24. Mark (10 comments) says:

    At what point does it become OK to have no idea OK about the holocaust. It seems OK for Cantabrians no have no idea about the Crusades. To a teenager, both events are ancient history.

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  25. tvb (4,553 comments) says:

    I think the people making a big fuss out of this prank are the stupidist ones of all.

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  26. Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (743 comments) says:

    Some people in the media saying they should be forced to do this, others saying they should be forced to do that. Can no one see the irony in these statements?

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  27. TimG_Oz (866 comments) says:

    I haven’t seen the photos, and I don’t know the background so I am reserving judgement.

    However, NOT doing anything can be dangerous.

    When I was at Palmerston North Boys High in the late 80s, there were a group of “skinheads” with shaved heads who openly placed PAINTED red white and black swastikas on schoolbags. The teachers did NOTHING. The boys singled out a few other students (like myself) for some special “treatment” (violent bullying). Apparently the ringleader was “proud” of his German heritage.

    I’m not sure that education will ever mean you don’t get idiots or stop this behaviour. But I think keeping quiet as PNBHS did is rotten.

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  28. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    Oh dear…

    “# Danyl Mclauchlan (622) Vote: Add rating 8 Subtract rating 2 Says:
    October 20th, 2009 at 8:15 am

    Give them a break, they’re just a bunch of kids.”

    That statement sums up almost all that is wrong with our country.

    God forbid that ANYBODY should have to take responsibility for their actions, just blame it on somebody else or turn a blind eye.

    Kick the little shits up the backside and make them publicly apologise, that should then be the end of the matter.

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  29. jcuknz (689 comments) says:

    Before we had a frantic competitive media such events would be given the attention they desere … none. It is the same old beat-up with quotes from the obvious sources that we all know will be asked. The headmaster in a sane world would have ensured the withdrawal from Facebook and given them six of the best with a gym shoe or perhaps a couple each with a cane and told them not to be silly idiots again. Sadly that world is long gone and we suffer the consequences.

    Labrator hs bang on target with his comments. We need to remember that there have been one or two films recently featuring the Nazis and ‘Shindler’s List’ is long gone.

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  30. MT_Tinman (3,315 comments) says:

    The story doesn’t give ages so I assume these were children.

    The Hitler, holococost, Nazi thing was over more than 60 fucking years ago.

    It IS fucking ancient history.

    No news here, just children being children.

    On your way out tell the Jew-victim industry to fuck off.

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  31. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    KiwiGreg – They’ve done nothing illegal.

    legal or illegal has nothing to do with it – its not an incident of National interest and shouldn’t be blown up like it is.
    Did you read yesterdays posts about the example from out of parliament of if it isn’t illegal then its ok?

    This just illustrates how pathetic our media are.
    I’d say that there are far more important things we need to discuss as a nation but apart from a simple swipe over by our media, they do not inform us.
    Instead they put a stupid prank on National news for 2 days. Morons all.

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  32. tom hunter (5,133 comments) says:

    Writing reports? Meeting “people they’ve offended”? Welcome to education in the sensitivity training era. I think it will be less learning than an exercise in building resentment.

    If we really want them to learn something from this (what Obama would call a “teachable moment”), they should be made to undertake the following exercise:

    Step 1: Visit Auckland War Memorial Museum

    Step 2: Locate old USSR flag and/or Chinese flag. Kiss Hammer and Sickle and/or the five stars. Salute portraits of Stalin and Mao while wearing Che t-shirts.

    Step 3: Write notes on lack of public outrage. Explain (limit 10,000 words).

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  33. Steve (4,536 comments) says:

    Just kids being stupid huh? big bruv is onto it. These kids need to be thankful to those who died so that they could do stupid things. An apology to the Museum staff? why? an apology at the next ANZAC service is in order.
    Too many soft cocks brush this aside as kids having fun. Fun at my fallen family members I find repugnant.

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  34. tvb (4,553 comments) says:

    I agree this is history. AND the paradox in all this is the State of Israel is treating the Arabs the same way as Hitler treated the jews in the ghettos. They are a disgrace and a total insult to New Zealand.

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  35. Brian Smaller (3,965 comments) says:

    Exactly tom hunter – well said.

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  36. Brian Smaller (3,965 comments) says:

    tvb – really? You mean the Nazis provided health care, fuel, power, food, arms for the ‘police’ and internet services in their ghettos?

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  37. Murray (8,803 comments) says:

    And the stealth nazis appear.

    Never miss an oportunity to shit on the only fuctional democracy in the ME and those evil Jews eh tvb. The kids aren’t the problem, you are. Go to the museum and take a look at the lengths we’ll go to to deliver a cure.

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  38. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    ohh tvb
    lets not go there or I fear we’ll be in the disproportionate poo poo before we know it.
    then we’ll have LUC and KrisK all over it too.

    No they were naughty boys – spank.
    Dad & Mum they represent your family – hand out fine.
    Teacher – where the fck were you?
    Media – move on

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  39. MikeE (439 comments) says:

    DPF – need I remind you about a certain party at an apartment off cuba st ;-)

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  40. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Murray
    That conference looks great fun.
    They had actors manipulating trebuchets at Warwick castle last time I was there and some others explaining one on one warfare too.
    My boy was 9 and loved it as much as dad & mum.

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  41. kD (12 comments) says:

    They were just goofing around, weren’t they? If I came across a huge swastika, I’d throw up a sieg heil for the benefit of the camera too.

    Go watch a few Jewish comedians – they know what satire means.

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  42. James (1,299 comments) says:

    “Some people in the media saying they should be forced to do this, others saying they should be forced to do that. Can no one see the irony in these statements?”

    No….but then Kiwis don’t see the irony in the state forcing businesses to close their doors on ANZAC day either….

    This handwringing PC bullshit is a yawn.They are kids having a lark…..WW2 is ancient history to them.Yes a good bollocking and explanation of why what they did galls people may be in order but not this tut tutting hypocrisy from people who seem to have no issue with state violence being used against their fellow citizens the rest of the time…eg John Key and Paul Holmes re P.I hope these two fascist arseholes have the good grace not to pop up next year on ANZAC day spouting off about our glorious dead and the sacfifice they made for “our freedom”…..I would puke.

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  43. TimG_Oz (866 comments) says:

    MT_Tinman – 60 years? Ancient History???? Didn’t you have Grandparents?

    What an ignorant comment.

    Maybe we should get rid of all the war memorials.

    In fact any kind of funeral service is just an industry. Maybe we should get rid of cemetaries.

    And all those pesky Jews with no relatives to mourn. You think we should get rid of them too?

    Pathetic.

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  44. gravedodger (1,575 comments) says:

    WHY does this sort of incident nearly always come down to the killing of ten million people of jewish blood. IMHO the biggest lesson from Hitler’s rise is the fact that he got himself and his party ELECTED to the German parliament under a constitution that was widely accepted as democratic in the eyes of the world. What he achieved then, from that position of power, gained legally,that then degenerated into the monster that achieved the almost total annihilation of the Jews who could not avoid the Nazis but also allowed the systematic killing of comunists, gypseys, political opponents and the mentally ill, a vast number of whom were CITIZENS of Germany. The consequences that befell the people of Jewish descent must be aknowledged for what it was, but we must always ensure that without adequate vigilance any democracy can be subsumed by a group of unscrupulous people with the support of knowing participents and/or support born out of ignorance or omission.
    I am totally appalled by what happened to the Jews but I fear for how easy democracy can be subverted by determined people as witnessed by the EFA being passed into law in our tidy little democracy by the last Labour government with the help of people blinded to what democracy actually means. That is the BIG LESSON to come from the history of Nazi Germany.

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  45. Scott (1,807 comments) says:

    Agree with much of the above. Just young lads being foolish really and going through that really offensive stage. I think we can blow this out of all proportion.

    Pres George Bush was accused of doing stupid things in his youth. He didn’t excuse himself. He just simply said, “when I was young and foolish, I was young and foolish”.

    In the old days we would have just caned them and got on with it. Still the right thing to do in my opinion.

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  46. James (1,299 comments) says:

    Gravedodger…..maybe the problem is Democracy itself…..which is just dictatorship by a majority rather than the usual few or one.As a Libertarian I reject Democracy because it represses individual freedom.

    Democracy is just the iron fist of dictatorship wearing a velvert glove…

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  47. TripeWryter (716 comments) says:

    I am now in my early 60s. I was born after the war and grewup in that generation where most men around me had been to the war — including uncles and sundry cousins. Many of my teachers had been to war.

    So I grew up hearing all about the war. I saw the documentaries, and I read the books, including Bertrand Russell’s Scourge of the Swastika.

    I was in a Wellington shop several lifetimes ago and a fire engine screamed past on the street outside — the shopowner began to tremble. Even after 30 years a fire engine’s sirens reminded her of the terror of Stuka dive bombers howling down on Belgrade.

    I once boarded with a European woman who remembered the German Army’s arrival in her town one morning, and their threatening, bullying manner. She could not believe that those Germans could be like the Germans she knew just over the border.

    A concentration camp survivor showed me the tattoos on her arm. More than 30 years later the dogs and the shrieks of the women guards still gave her nightmares. Thirty years later she hated hearing women screaming at each other.
    So, what I am saying is, I know a little about the war, and a little bit about it effects on those who survived it, and their families.

    As this story has gone on I have begun to wonder if there has not been a huge-overreaction to these boys’ actions. They’re kids. They might well have thought they were being funny. They were stupid in putting it on Facebook.

    It seems as if the pictures have been there for some time, and that this event happened some months ago, and has come to light because someone saw it.

    But what ACTUALLY was offensive?

    What kid (or adult) hasn’t at some stage given a Hitler salute (with finger under the nose to imitate Hitler’s moustache)? NewstalkZB’s news service seemed to have editorialised into its news coverage the outrage some people have taken over these boys’ actions. These boys’ actions were LEWD, ZB has told us repeatedly.

    The pictures I have seen shows a boy doing a very poor Hitler salute (with finger under his nose), and another boy bowing to a panel of a swastika. But did any of them drop their pants; expose their little boys’ widdlies; shit on the floor? So what was lewd.

    I repeat: WHAT was offensive, and if you are one who was offended, WHY?

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  48. Mike S (177 comments) says:

    Kings Boys would never be so vulgar or stupid. It just goes to show the difference in quality between pseudo-private schools and the real thing.
    *joking folks*

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  49. James (1,299 comments) says:

    You just know now don’t you that having this blown up in the media everyone and his brother will be doing this too when they visit the museum huh?

    They never learn…..meaning Christians and other dickheads…if you don’t want people to notice or do something you hate DON”T draw their attention to it eg South Parks “Bloody Mary” episode.Negative publicity is still publicity.

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  50. RRM (10,097 comments) says:

    They fought for our freedom to be dopey idiots.

    Hear hear to what Tripewryter said.

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  51. trout (953 comments) says:

    I am surprised Children’s Rights have not hired a QC to represent the boys and defend their right to demonstrate.

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  52. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    James
    By other dickheads do you mean atheists/agnostics, all other faiths and National Party supporters or did you just mean to swipe at Christians ? :-)

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  53. James (1,299 comments) says:

    “James
    By other dickheads do you mean atheists/agnostics, all other faiths and National Party supporters or did you just mean to swipe at Christians ? :-)

    Well they are the usual suspects when this sort of issue arises…..as in the Bloody Mary example.But yes they certainly aren’t alone in making the publicity error.

    Christians just happen to piss me off more…..probably because they are more often in my face than others.

    ;-0

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  54. James (1,299 comments) says:

    RRM

    “They fought for our freedom to be dopey idiots.

    Hear hear to what Tripewryter said.”

    Agree totally RRM….but aren’t you usually advocating socialism? Does the the irony of doing so while agreeing that freedom to be dopey idiots (and logically therefore to do anything else that doesn’t violate anothers rights) go right over your head?

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  55. Swiftman the infidel (329 comments) says:

    My wife forces me to watch TV3 news at six.

    I had read on the net of that horrible case in South Auckland involving the black moslems who starved and tortured a little girl to death and I dreaded watching this news item while eating and didn’t want our seven year old to hear it.

    But to my astonishment the lead story was of these silly boys and they never mentioned the case at all!

    The message from TV3 is clear: The really evil ones are white upper middle class males.

    TV3 are disgusting.

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  56. James (1,299 comments) says:

    Who are the 4 idiots (to date) who gave my post on democracy bad Karma? Care to explain why?

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  57. wreck1080 (3,999 comments) says:

    Pathetic, you’d think these children killed the jews themselves judging from the global outcry.

    This will occur again, some other time, some other place. eg, Prince harry a couple of years ago.

    These kids don’t have the maturity or experience to know differently.

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  58. MT_Tinman (3,315 comments) says:

    TinG

    I realise common sense has no bearing on your life but even halfwits should realise that 60 years is damned near three generations.

    Indeed in that period I was born as were my children and grandchildren.

    We now have Rwanda, Bosnia, China under Mao, Russia (indeed the whole USSR), Cambodia and christ knows how many more examples of some form or other of genocide that are newer and closer than the German thing.

    The Jews have collared the victim-industry publicity but their holacost has fuck all relevance to children today, just one example of man’s inhumanity when in pack mentality.

    The only thing that may make the German/Jew thing stand out is that, unlike most others but like so many German exploits, they were so damned efficient at it.

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  59. Scott (1,807 comments) says:

    James — I think you might be getting negative karma because you are being more than usually offensive today. Your swipe at Christians is just coming from nowhere. If you are feeling upset about Christians in your face, perhaps God is in your face. Perhaps you are under conviction from the holy spirit and you are just resisting it?

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  60. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    James – I was the original green you got, but now I’ve given you a red too. so that makes another now.
    Pricks come in all shapes and sizes, just so we know, you named Christians because you don’t like them, not for accuracy for your comment.
    Ohh and I’d have pinged you if it had been black or gender as well.

    Wreck
    You’re absolutely right, it’s not as if they desecrated graves is it?

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  61. James (1,299 comments) says:

    “James — I think you might be getting negative karma because you are being more than usually offensive today. Your swipe at Christians is just coming from nowhere. If you are feeling upset about Christians in your face, perhaps God is in your face. Perhaps you are under conviction from the holy spirit and you are just resisting it?”

    What offence can people take from my post on the evils of democracy?Its the truth.It is dictatorship by a majority and peoples individual rights are violated by it as they are under overt dictatorships……the only difference being the degree of impact.

    The swipe at Christians was valid in the context of this issue.They do tend to be at the front of those inadvertantly arousing peoples intrest in things they want banned/condemmed….dumb.

    Christians want to force their ideas and faith on me via the state as do their lefty socialist brothers…..thats why I dislike them…..as well as their belief in God being retarded.But I respect their right to freedom of belief….even if they don’t support mine.

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  62. starboard (2,563 comments) says:

    Who are the 4 idiots (to date) who gave my post on democracy bad Karma?

    ..make that 5 Jim….

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  63. James (1,299 comments) says:

    “Who are the 4 idiots (to date) who gave my post on democracy bad Karma?

    ..make that 5 Jim….”

    You karma’ed the wrong post knobend…..;-0

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  64. James (1,299 comments) says:

    Still waiting for a reason for the bad karma for that post…..anyone? Hello?

    Ah….I see starboard has added his karma at last.

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  65. starboard (2,563 comments) says:

    ..sorry Jim..hows that…

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  66. Swiftman the infidel (329 comments) says:

    I was the first for bad karma for Jimmy-boy’s last post.

    As Nelson from the Simpsons would say

    HA HA

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  67. starboard (2,563 comments) says:

    maybe …um..well…er…they disagree with it Jimmy…it was offensive dont ya know…

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  68. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    While I agree with many others here that perhaps this was just a prank gone a little too far, I do wonder whether there is a more sinister element to this. In recent years there have been increasing numbers of such ‘pranks’ occuring within NZ (and overseas too). Such ‘pranks’ as grafitti on Jewish graves, anti Jewish/Israeli demonstrations, etc. Of course the Prince Harry Nazi get-up at some party comes to mind also.

    Does anyone recall the case in Invercargill of the Muslim cafe owner refusing to serve two Jewish women? – DPF even blogged about it here on Kiwiblog. I really do feel that we as a society have changed – even from when I was at college in the late 70s. To do what these college boys did would not even have occurred to us when we were at similar ages – not even as a joke. Seriously, as many of us here are over 40 (my estimation), how many of us would have done something similar at the same age – just think about it – would you have?

    I believe, as others do, that this upcoming generation have been raised in a no fault, no consequence, questionable morals/values (certainly subjectively fluid rather than objectively fixed), egocentric environment. So while we may just see this as an harmless ‘prank’, when you look at what others this age are doing, perhaps this is more indicative of the thin end of the wedge.
    For example:
    Teenagers/young men – beating and raping little old ladies; beating and killing a pizza delivery man; raping and killing young women walking home at night; dragging old men out of cars and beating them to (later) death; beating up couples sitting in cars in carparks for no reason; increasingly bullying their peers; increasingly threatening their teachers with violence; beating up their own mothers; totally out of control drunken teen parties; no respect for any form of authority; ad infinitum.

    If the above isn’t an indication of the results of the last nine years of socialist experimentaion, then I don’t know what is.And Bradford’s Bill, if it remains, will just add further fuel to the fire.
    This sort of stuff really does worry me, and gives me great pause as to the future of our nation, and indeed the world.

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  69. James (1,299 comments) says:

    “maybe …um..well…er…they disagree with it Jimmy…it was offensive dont ya know…”

    No I don’t.My statement is fact.Democracy is mob rule and violates individual rights……diddums if you can’t handle the truth.

    So its offensive?Please explain just what makes it offensive…Im interested.Do people think Democracy is some perfect holy grail above critisism?Do tell.

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  70. andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    Selective outrage – if I recall correctly some goof hung a Viet Cong flag on the cenotaph the day Saigon fell and that little action doesn’t seem to have had any long term negative consequences for that particular fellow what-so-ever.

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  71. starboard (2,563 comments) says:

    My statement is fact.Democracy is mob rule and violates individual rights

    ..well there ya go Jim…telling all your statement is FACT and up yours if you dont agree…all Im saying is that maybe the people who bad K’d you dont agree with you silly man…and for what its worth Id rather have democracy anyday over the likes of..oh I dunno..H Klark and co…

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  72. James (1,299 comments) says:

    Good post Kris.When I was young I learned a healty respect for the police.Now I see youngsters with no respect giving the cops a hard time so you are right about the decline of standards in our society.

    Of course it may gust be the law of “every action has an equal and opposite reaction”.People are maybe rebelling against a stifeling PC/Conservative ethos and breaking out to express their individuality and the thoughts in their own minds….?

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  73. Nick Archer (133 comments) says:

    Yeah it is what-so-ever, just dumb kids, dumb kids do dumb things like this all the time and should get ridiculed for being such eggs…

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  74. Leg Break (89 comments) says:

    One factor in the attention this has got is the school involved.

    2009 = Pick on Auckland Grammar Year.

    Not saying that’s a bad thing; just an observation.

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  75. RRM (10,097 comments) says:

    James – perhaps one day you will learn to propose your views without resorting to just abusing everyone else. Oh happy day that will be. But until then, hush because grownups are talking, hmmmmkay?

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  76. James (1,299 comments) says:

    “..well there ya go Jim…telling all your statement is FACT and up yours if you dont agree…all Im saying is that maybe the people who bad K’d you dont agree with you silly man…and for what its worth Id rather have democracy anyday over the likes of..oh I dunno..H Klark and co…”

    Ah we got Helen and co under Democracy smartie…..do try to make an effort,its embarassing.

    So people disagree wth me……but what are their reasons? No one seems able to tell me so I must conclude that I was right….which I know I am.

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  77. KiwiGreg (3,278 comments) says:

    @ Leg Break SNAP – was just going to post as I have seen quite a bit of negative publicity about Grammar since the rugby incident and wondered if anyone else was joining any dots.

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  78. KiwiGreg (3,278 comments) says:

    Of course in democratic Germany (I think in Austria too but not sure), what they did do is in fact illegal (as it is to display swatstikas in other than certain very limited situations)

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  79. Tauhei Notts (1,687 comments) says:

    I think the offensive boys should be sentenced to write a 4000+ word essay on their silly behaviour. The essay must include an apology to the Jewish people which must be delivered to the Jewish people within seven days of the Zionist zealots evacuating the Occupied Territories. The essay should include a comparison between the slaughter of Deir Yassin and similar Nazi atrocities. The essay could also compare the medical attention offered N.Z. prisoners of war by the Germans compared to what the Japanese offered in the way of medical attention to N.Z. prisoners of war.
    Tell me if you want a bibliography for them to look through.

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  80. James (1,299 comments) says:

    “James – perhaps one day you will learn to propose your views without resorting to just abusing everyone else. Oh happy day that will be. But until then, hush because grownups are talking, hmmmmkay?”

    Oh look….another one who can’t answer a question put to him.And as a socialist isn’t it a bit rich of you to accuse me of abusing others when thats what you advocate politically?

    Hmmmmmkay?

    PS….would the “grownups” please talk to me and answer my question re Democracy?

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  81. RRM (10,097 comments) says:

    What would I know about Democracy? I’m just an advocate for socialism, apparently…

    :-D

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  82. James (1,299 comments) says:

    “What would I know about Democracy? I’m just an advocate for socialism, apparently…”

    Close enough….two wolves that both eat sheep.

    ;-)

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  83. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Tauhei
    How about The story of my life by Moshe Dayan?
    isbn – 0 7221 2873 8 autobiography

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  84. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    James 11:48 am,

    Good post Kris.When I was young I learned a healty respect for the police.Now I see youngsters with no respect giving the cops a hard time so you are right about the decline of standards in our society.

    Of course it may gust be the law of “every action has an equal and opposite reaction”.People are maybe rebelling against a stifeling PC/Conservative ethos and breaking out to express their individuality and the thoughts in their own minds….?

    Thanks James, but don’t tell anyone else that I’m one of those “Christians and other dickheads”.
    For me I don’t equate ‘political correctness’ with a ‘conservative ethos’. I think the former is one of the tools used by socialists to control the masses, whereas the latter is more linked to absolute and objective morals and good behaviour – one could go as far as saying Biblical values.

    Of course if the youth of today are not taught a ‘conservative ethos’, and all that entails, then they will indeed throw of the shackles of that which they perceive to oppress them. This is what I believe we are seeing our youth actively doing today. Slack parenting and bad laws only further enhance this reaction by youth.

    In the minds of youth today the individual is king; and damn the rest.

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  85. TripeWryter (716 comments) says:

    I have just read the update on Stuff, and watched the video of the boys arriving at Auckland museum surrounded by TV cameras and busy journalists, one of whom attached herself to one of the boys to demand that he explain himself.

    This is sickening.

    Where is that useless piece of bureaucracy, the Children’s Commissioner, if the school’s headmaster won’t step in and protect them?

    In what other circumstances would adults allow children to be paraded like that? As a father there is no way I would let a child of mine be subjected to that.

    A lynch mob mentality has taken over.

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  86. starboard (2,563 comments) says:

    Ah we got Helen and co under Democracy smartie…..do try to make an effort,its embarassing.

    yes Jim..and democracy wiped her and her followers like a dirty arse…wakey wakey Jim xx

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  87. James (1,299 comments) says:

    “yes Jim..and democracy wiped her and her followers like a dirty arse…wakey wakey Jim xx

    ….and replaced her with the socialist Key…wow…But we still got her thanks to Democracy in the first place.

    If we had a free country instead we would not suffer these nannying dropkicks.

    Democracy is like two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.Its not what our soldiers fought and died for.

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  88. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    If it was my boy, He wouldn’t be there. he would be resting his backside before a private meeting.
    Advertising on National media when and where they would be, sharks frenzy, absolute bollocks.

    As for the Children’s commissioner or families commission don’t make me laugh.

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  89. RRM (10,097 comments) says:

    So James – this free country you speak of… anarchy? I’m intrigued.

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  90. James (1,299 comments) says:

    Im a Libertarian….not an anachist.Government is needed as a referee is needed in a football game and for the same reason.But like the Referee the Government is not playing in the game….it keeps the peace and enforces the rules.

    Freedom means free from other people….not objective reality and the consequences of our actions.

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  91. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Do you guys remember the Destiny Enough is Enough on that Monday at parliament?
    Well on the Tues there was another rally in support of the Jewish community after the desecration of the graves.

    Roger Moses head of Well Coll and Ngati Love spoke so eloquently and make such sense (funny James both are Christians ;-)
    Chris Carter (the traveller) was bloody awful as was the other no name.

    There were 500 bods there as opposed to 5000 the day before and where was the media scrum then?
    As the schuul sent them an invite too
    Nowhere. wankers.

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  92. the deity formerly known as nigel6888 (717 comments) says:

    On reflection, I have a new take on this.

    Its really about moral equivalence. Its very important to have rich white kids behaving badly, because the next time we get some poor kid on poor kid ghetto violence, and we all start tutting about the depravation in the under-class, the left wing and professional do-gooders will pull this out as an example that rich white kids behave badly too.

    therefore we are all the same, and there is nothing to be done, because doing Nazi salutes is really exactly the same as putting toddlers into washing machines.

    The fake outrage is all about desensitising us to real outrages that are going on all around us.

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  93. James (1,299 comments) says:

    “Roger Moses head of Well Coll and Ngati Love spoke so eloquently and make such sense (funny James both are Christians ;-)”

    Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

    ;-)

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  94. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Dearest James
    Ever heard about digging in a trench and the sides falling in?
    Do you not get it yet?
    You’ll end up like Philu, who thankfully is on holiday today.

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  95. david (2,194 comments) says:

    I’m certainly no defender of AG (no connections whatsoever) but I can’t help but consider the entrenched attitudes of some of the posters here venting their outrage and bile over this stupid prank. Things like “privileged white kids”, and upper class twats getting lawyers, abong other remarks. As one who drives past that school most mornings, it would be afair bet that some or all of these kids have English as a second language and come from Guanzschou (spp?) or similar.

    As such it wouldn’t surprise me at all if they knew sweet FA about Nazism and WWII, about Joe Stalin or Che or Pol Pot. Their parents are probably too scared to speak out loud to them about Mao Zedong and even if they did it wouldn’t be about thye deaths on the long march or subsequent purges.

    As someone above said, hands up those who haven’t parodied Adolf at some stage of their lives.

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  96. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Nigel
    I need a grey button for you as I can’t click both at the same time!
    Your satire is far superior to mine, I am chastened.
    either that or you are a bloody genuis

    David
    I can’t put my hand up.

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  97. Jack5 (5,271 comments) says:

    Mark at 8.51 posted: “…It seems OK for Cantabrians no have no idea about the Crusades…”

    Rubbish Mark. Most of us know about the Crusades and the ugly side with its pogroms and mayhem and perhaps being a cause of the downfall of Byzantium. We also know about the Muslims’ conquests of Africa and southern and south-eastern Europe by force and conversion by the sword. Saladdin the Kurd and other Muslims were pretty vicious against the Crusaders, too.

    I can see you are not making some sort of PC dig against the use of “Crusaders” as a theme for a great rugby team. Otherwise I would tell you to put on a burqua and fuck off and blow yourself up.

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  98. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    MikeNZ 12:37 pm,

    Do you guys remember the Destiny Enough is Enough on that Monday at parliament?
    Well on the Tues there was another rally in support of the Jewish community after the desecration of the graves.

    Roger Moses head of Well Coll and Ngati Love spoke so eloquently and make such sense (funny James both are Christians ;-)
    Chris Carter (the traveller) was bloody awful as was the other no name.

    There were 500 bods there as opposed to 5000 the day before and where was the media scrum then?
    As the schuul sent them an invite too
    Nowhere. wankers.

    You know the rules, Mike.
    The media only turn up to ‘Christian’ gatherings when they have an opportunity to show Christianity as nutbar extremists. The image of black shirts en mass marching through the central city fitted in with that perfectly. And I would hazard a guess that the MSM regards Jews/Israel in much the same way – in fact we all know they do. Their non interest in a gathering in support of the Jewish community after the desecration of the graves should also come as no surprise. Anything that makes Jews or Christians look good is ‘non news’ as far as the MSM is concerned.

    And trying to find a strong Christian in the MSM is like trying to find a pork roll at a Jewish wedding.

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  99. James (1,299 comments) says:

    “Dearest James
    Ever heard about digging in a trench and the sides falling in?
    Do you not get it yet?
    You’ll end up like Philu, who thankfully is on holiday today.”

    Mike…..this is a blog run by an atheist….like me.I hardly think Im in any danger of becoming philu here…

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  100. James (1,299 comments) says:

    Heres a blast from Kiwiblogs past..;-)

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2006/02/idiotic_christians.html

    Idiotic Christians

    “The Christian (and other) leaders who are continuing to advocate for the Bloody Mary episode of South Park to be banned are really pretty stupid.

    They have guaranteed that ratings for that episode will be massively higher than normal. And it shows on a TV channel that 95% of the population probably don’t even check out on a regular basis.”

    Well said Mr Farrar!

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  101. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    KrisK
    I took my own :-)

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  102. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    sorry James
    You’ll have to explain this to me in one syllable.

    Because this blog is run by an atheist you have carte blanche to swipe attack Christians (especially) but all people of faith.

    Because, you think it is acceptable, you’re in good company, you’re protected here, or he approves?

    You pick the one or several that you think applies.

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  103. labrator (1,851 comments) says:

    I’ve always found the Crusaders rugby team pre-game theme distasteful. Riding around on horses, the cross of Christianity emblazoned front and back, waving swords around threateningly. I wonder what Muslim rugby supporters think about that?

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  104. Leg Break (89 comments) says:

    @labarator,

    Why stop at the pre-game part?

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  105. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    I’ve thought the same about the Crusaders too. You could say similar about the Warriors. And the Highlanders also seemed weird, especially as they train and play about 10m above sea level and most don’t come from Scotland or Otago. Pigislanders would be closer.

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  106. Jack5 (5,271 comments) says:

    Re Labrator’s tisk-tisking the Crusaders (1.55 post).

    You’ll be concerned then Labrator, about what Muslims think of our netball players’ uniforms? And what they think of our eating pork and bacon, and our having Christmas as an official holiday, and our reading Christian prayers in Parliament?

    However, you will appreciate that we let Muslims proselytise in NZ, including in our prisons, even though Christians can go to jail or suffer even worse for preaching in some Muslim countries.

    And how terrible to wave the Crusaders mascots wave swords threateningly. You’ll dislike fencing, then, and boxing, and judo?

    And what Muslim rugby supporters? How many? Is that why Auckland has such a lousy team?

    It’s nice that we have a democracy in NZ Labrator, where you can express distaste at someone wearing the “cross of Christianity”. If, in say, Saudi Arabia, you expressed similar thoughts about the Crescent, you would likely be beheaded — after having your feet broken.

    And since this string is about NZ schoolboys’ behaviour at the museum Nazi exhibition, you might reflect, Labrator, that some Muslim leaders assert the Holocaust is nothing but a myth, and one leading Muslim, the Mufti of Jerusalem, was an active supporter of Hitler throughout World War II, and that Bosnians and other European Muslims provided a Muslim unit for Germany’s SS.

    Meanwhile Charles Upham and thousands of other Canterbury men were doing their bit fighting the Nazis.

    Go the Crusaders!

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  107. labrator (1,851 comments) says:

    Wow, Jack5, I don’t think you could miss the point in a more spectacular fashion.

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  108. gravedodger (1,575 comments) says:

    Great analysis guys, those bloody Canterbury Crusaders won all those super rugby titles by cheating, intimidation and luck, nothing to do with scoring more points or playing the smarter rugby. Talk about being intimidated just go to Loftus, Ellis Park or Kings Park, just a walk in the park for sure.
    Sorry DPF they INTIMIDATED me.

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  109. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Neither could you Labrator. Jack5 is correct in his summing up.
    Why do you eat halal meat then?

    Come James where’s my answer?

    sorry James
    You’ll have to explain this to me in one syllable.
    Because this blog is run by an atheist you have carte blanche to swipe attack Christians (especially) but all people of faith.
    Because, you think it is acceptable, you’re in good company, you’re protected here, or he approves?

    You pick the one or several that you think applies.

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  110. Leg Break (89 comments) says:

    @gravedodger,

    You left out the bit about playing in the fog / smog, and not letting players transfer; even when they’re not getting game time.

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  111. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Jack5 2:15 pm,

    And since this string is about NZ schoolboys’ behaviour at the museum Nazi exhibition, you might reflect, Labrator, that some Muslim leaders assert the Holocaust is nothing but a myth, and one leading Muslim, the Mufti of Jerusalem, was an active supporter of Hitler throughout World War II, and that Bosnians and other European Muslims provided a Muslim unit for Germany’s SS.

    And of course, don’t forget that Yasser Arafat was this same Mufti of Jerusalem’s nephew.
    Another great supporter of ‘all things Jewish’.

    I too have little sensitivity toward Muslim sensibilities. If I expressed my beliefs in a Muslim nation I’d likely end up with my head being summarily separated from my body. That we allow such people in our country, and then cowtail to their religious sensitivities, really causes me to think that common sense left our nation a long time ago. If you’re a guest in our country then you play by our rules; you assimilate into our society.

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  112. BlackMoss (61 comments) says:

    “If you’re a guest in our country then you play by our rules; you assimilate into our society.”

    Just out of interest, would the same rules apply to Maori ?

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  113. RRM (10,097 comments) says:

    Kris K:

    Do you see any difference at all between hard-line religious authorities in Muslim contries, and individual Muslims that come here to get away from all that?

    Do you see immigrants as “guests” forever, or at some point do you deem they’ve jumped through sufficient hoops and/or paid enough tax to become fellow citizens?

    I would have thought that NZ stance in allowing Muslim immigrants to practise their own religion freely is PRECISELY the reason why our country is better than theirs. It is a distinction I would not want to see thrown away on the back of anti-Islam paranoia.

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  114. labrator (1,851 comments) says:

    Neither could you Labrator. Jack5 is correct in his summing up.
    Why do you eat halal meat then?

    Is this directed at me? Neither could I what? Who eats halal meat?

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  115. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Kris
    I think this doc sums up the background to your 12.09 post
    http://cornerstonevalues.org/pdf/MakingSense.pdf
    Without common values we can’t have common sense.

    RRM
    If you carry the NZ passport you are a citizen and equal before the law or should be no matter how your parents got here or when.

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  116. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    BlackMoss 2:41 pm,

    “If you’re a guest in our country then you play by our rules; you assimilate into our society.”

    Just out of interest, would the same rules apply to Maori ?

    Do you think Maori should leave and go back to Hawaiiki to allow Moriori to re-establish themselves?

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  117. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Blackmoss
    No but they should have no elevated status in society (or law) above any other ethne in NZ.
    We are all citizens if we carry the NZ passport.

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  118. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Maybe we should all just go back to Africa.

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  119. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    RRM 2:42 pm,

    Kris K:
    Do you see any difference at all between hard-line religious authorities in Muslim contries, and individual Muslims that come here to get away from all that?

    Do you see immigrants as “guests” forever, or at some point do you deem they’ve jumped through sufficient hoops and/or paid enough tax to become fellow citizens?

    I would have thought that NZ stance in allowing Muslim immigrants to practise their own religion freely is PRECISELY the reason why our country is better than theirs. It is a distinction I would not want to see thrown away on the back of anti-Islam paranoia.

    In a nutshell:
    The trouble I have with uncontrolled immigration of Muslims is this; even though most Muslims that come here sell themselves as moderates, I have to seriously question their real motives when these same so called ‘moderates’ remain silent when yet another Islamic terrorist act is perpetrated against western nations or Israel. Do you remember all those ‘moderates’ dancing in the streets after 911? Islam is fundamentally an evil philosphy/religion with an end goal of establishing a global Islamic hegemony – including here in good old (the Jewish/Christian’s God, not Allah) Godzone; NZ.

    Secular governments, like our own, refuse to see this – but many of us on the ground see exactly what a threat Islam is to Western Democracy. Islamic immigration is nothing more than an Islamic takeover by stealth. And we let them in.

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  120. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Kris
    This is going way off topic of the boys and Nazi salutes and the media driven storm of the lefty trefties.

    If I may comment, whilst in essence you are correct, I would beg to differ in that people who profess Islam are very like Christians and other people of a faith in that their level of commitment and consequent action in their lives is different.
    You would not characterise a ordinary folk Muslim with an Islamist or a Jihadi surely?

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  121. RRM (10,097 comments) says:

    If you go around expecting any and all Muslim NZ citizens to drop what they are doing every time a bomb goes off in the middle east, and publicly decry it, you are probably asking them for something you wouldn’t bother with yourself.

    When France proposed to ban Muslim headscarfs in their state schools, did freedom-loving Kris K protest in the streets against this affront to freedom? If not, why not?

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  122. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    labrator 2:45 pm,

    Neither could you Labrator. Jack5 is correct in his summing up.
    Why do you eat halal meat then?

    Is this directed at me? Neither could I what? Who eats halal meat?

    You do Labrator, as do most Kiwis without knowing it.

    Having done some engineering work in a few meatworks I can tell you that if a works has any part of its production exported overseas, then ALL of their throughput is killed in accordance with Halal slaughter practices. This includes all local trade (NZ consumption). So basically all the meat (beef and mutton) you eat is Halal.

    Talk about eating meat offered to idols/false gods.

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  123. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    MikeNZ 3:21 pm,

    You would not characterise a ordinary folk Muslim with an Islamist or a Jihadi surely?

    I can only draw my conclusions based on the actions/views of the majority of so called moderate Muslims. The fact that, on the whole, they are silent regarding Islamic terrorism only causes me to think that they implicitly condone such actions – is there any other conclusion one can draw?

    I sadly view most Muslims as nothing more than ‘sleepers’ awaiting for critical Muslim mass to be achieved. One needs only look at London, France, and most of Europe to see the results of uncontrolled Muslim immigartion playing out.

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  124. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Sorry Labrator I thought you understood what I said, apologies.
    It’s part of the plan of Hija & Tafiqyh used by the Ummah in Dawa in the Dar al Harb.

    If you don’t understand that sentence do a Google on all the funny words, just own the info, don’t rely on others, who’s message you can dismiss because you don’t like them, their style or viewpoint.

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  125. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    KrisK
    You are paraphrasing Daniel Pipes, Melanie Phillips, Bat deYeor and others here I take it?
    This is whole different thread which if memory serves me has been done before here.

    It must be said that to speak out inviolves risk.

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  126. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    RRM 3:22 pm,

    When France proposed to ban Muslim headscarfs in their state schools, did freedom-loving Kris K protest in the streets against this affront to freedom? If not, why not?

    Certainly not.
    And if Muslims here pushed for the rights to wear headscarfs in our state schools, then I would be leading the charge to support such a ban by our government. Good on France for making a stand against the ‘religion of peace’. Islam will take all the rights democracy offers it, while reciprocating not one iota in return. When I’m free to preach the gospel in Muslim countries without persecution then perhaps I’ll reconsider my stance, but until such time I will fiercely resist Islam with every fibre of my being.

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  127. RRM (10,097 comments) says:

    Which takes us right back to 2:42 pm. Clearly you don’t differentiate between authoritarian regimes in Muslim countries, and individuals that emigrate from those countries to live here.

    /gives up.

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  128. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    RRM
    I think he has been clear in that he said Muslims aim and wish for Sharia.
    Do you think they come here just to escape authoritarian Muslim regimes?

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  129. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    That’s what critical mass is in Dawa.

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  130. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    MikeNZ 3:39 pm,

    KrisK
    You are paraphrasing Daniel Pipes, Melanie Phillips, Bat deYeor and others here I take it?
    This is whole different thread which if memory serves me has been done before here.

    It must be said that to speak out inviolves risk.

    I certainly agree with much of what Daniel Pipes and Melanie Phillips say – although my views are my own.
    I struggle not to set the record straight when some have views about Islam that I disagree with, that’s all.

    And one of the reasons I comment here anonomously is that I do foresee increasing Islamic opposition within NZ; especially against those that vocally oppose their ideology. If nothing changes then I see us becoming more like Europe in this regard with Islam increasingly revealing its hand within our borders.

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  131. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    What’s different between being suspicious of and opposing all Muslims who live here, and the opposing and putting down of Jews in another country once certain people got into power?

    As you can see Luc, there are parallels

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  132. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I see this thread has morphed from gross overreaction to kids bad behaviour (what’s new about that? Am I the only one here who was in trouble at school?) into rampant Islamaphobia.

    Ah well, in the absence of a dose of Prozac, give yourselves a hug and relax to this:

    “Dance me through the panic till I’m gathered safely in.”

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  133. labrator (1,851 comments) says:

    @MikeNZ, here I was thinking you wanted to participate in a debate around some points. Instead it turns out you don’t. Your presumptions and arrogance blind you. If you could point out where I did any of what you said I did “who’s message you can dismiss because you don’t like them, their style or viewpoint.”, I’d be forever in your favour.

    @Kris K: That’s some interesting information. Good on the meat exporters for incorporating some forethought into their building design so as to increase their available markets. Smart thinking. As for the assumption that I eat halal meat, well that’s pretty wild on MikeNZ’s behalf. First he’d have to know that I ate meat and then in which country I eat meat and then where I source that meat from. He doesn’t know any of that information but that doesn’t suit his view points.

    Also, I’d like to apologise to the rest of the thread readers for mentioning both the word Canterbury and Muslim as that seems to have raised some defensive heckles on certain reader types here.

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  134. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    KrisK
    You are correct to be wary.
    At 30k odd the Islamic community here are in assimilation phase and bridgeheading.
    Though the Swimming pools and Halal foods stages are already in place, the Burqa and Najib hasn’t yet been an issue or seen for what it is.

    Have you read Faith, Power and Territory by Patrick Sookhdeo
    isbn – 978 0 954 7835 8 7
    Obviously it heralds the British experience but the parallels with France, danish, Dutch, Germany and now the USA are interesting.

    LUC
    Thanks for your considered post, not.
    It would be nice to get a thread on Islam and it’s useful idiots the left or liberal.

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  135. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 3:59 pm,

    What’s different between being suspicious of and opposing all Muslims who live here, and the opposing and putting down of Jews in another country once certain people got into power?

    Pete, your refusal to acknowledge that the end goals of Islam and Judaism are entirly different, reveals you are being deliberately obtuse. Islam has openly admitted her desire for an Islamic hegemony where Sharia law is imposed upon the global community. To not resist Islam is both naive and dangerous. Unless a Muslim converts out of Islam (and not necessarily into Christianity), then I will trust them about as far as I can throw them. Their religion stands for everything that is against the values that many of us hold dear in western democracies. And extending those rights to those sought on your destruction is nothing short of cultural (and literal) suicide.

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  136. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Labrator
    Do you know what those Islamic words mean?
    Do you understand them in the context of the sentence?

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  137. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    KrisK
    “Islam has openly”
    The problem is you speak as if you are speaking to people who know or share the same understanding as you.
    They do not or they don’t want to (for some it is because you are Christian but for others it is they don’t have the info or don’t accept the premise).
    That you can show from the 5 central core Hadiths, as well as history that your point is valid means nothing.

    I’m not putting you down, I just want this to be on the table as when I brought this up before I was slammed.
    This discussion neccesarily needs walking through some info, but it becomes a case of showing links (as it did to me before) with the usual rhetoric.
    That’s why my two questions to Labrator.

    I think the Russians response to a request to build a Mosque in Moscow was the best.
    “Yes when you allow us to build an Church or our choosing in Ridyah”.

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  138. Dazzaman (1,082 comments) says:

    James

    Christians just happen to piss me off more…..probably because they are more often in my face than others.

    With muslim fundamentalists on the verge of getting “the bomb”, several wars on the go, the giant hoax of climate change being readied as the latest excuse to pick our pockets & Grammar school boys throwing a few “seig heils” around……James is crying about being surrounded by a few Christians.

    Fuckin sook! LOL

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  139. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    MikeNZ 4:16 pm,

    KrisK
    You are correct to be wary.
    At 30k odd the Islamic community here are in assimilation phase and bridgeheading.
    Though the Swimming pools and Halal foods stages are already in place, the Burqa and Najib hasn’t yet been an issue or seen for what it is.

    Have you read Faith, Power and Territory by Patrick Sookhdeo
    isbn – 978 0 954 7835 8 7
    Obviously it heralds the British experience but the parallels with France, danish, Dutch, Germany and now the USA are interesting.

    The Halal meat was kind of more by default. As most of our export meat goes to Islamic countries, and most meatworks do a mix of export and local trade, it was simply not feasible to run separate throughput to differentiate between the the two markets. Hence all meat, if a component is to be exported, was slaughtered in accordance with Halal practices – a little known fact.

    Like you, I think the Burqa issue will raise itself here soon.

    And I haven’t read Faith, Power and Territory by Patrick Sookhdeo, but I’ll look out for it – thanks.
    Maybe John Key could add it to his reading list? Along with Londonistan by Melanie Phillips.
    One can only hope.

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  140. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    The Halal issue is part of the plan to elevate the faith above the home faiths, it is played out all over the world as that is part of Dawa.
    If the spiritual significance is true then that might help explain the gains Islam is making in different parts of the world.
    I did send him an email with a list of books to read over the year incl Londonistan, whether he has I don’t know.

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  141. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Kris, Hitler was as anti Jew as you sound anti Islam.

    Christianity at times in it’s history stood “for everything that is against the values that many of us hold dear in western democracies.” So should I forever condemn Christianity and be suspicious Christians? For all I know they could be lurking in Kiwiblog trying to convert people.

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  142. labrator (1,851 comments) says:

    @MikeNZ You’re being obtuse for your own benefit, why would I waste my time? I drew a simple parallel, you built a man of straw. You obviously have a cross to bare with the Muslim world. I suggest you take it up with them.

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  143. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    MikeNZ 4:32 pm,

    KrisK
    “Islam has openly”
    The problem is you speak as if you are speaking to people who know or share the same understanding as you.
    They do not or they don’t want to (for some it is because you are Christian but for others it is they don’t have the info or don’t accept the premise).
    That you can show from the 5 central core Hadiths, as well as history that your point is valid means nothing.

    I’m not putting you down, I just want this to be on the table as when I brought this up before I was slammed.
    This discussion neccesarily needs walking through some info, but it becomes a case of showing links (as it did to me before) with the usual rhetoric.
    That’s why my two questions to Labrator.

    I think the Russians response to a request to build a Mosque in Moscow was the best.
    “Yes when you allow us to build an Church or our choosing in Ridyah”.

    Yeah, I know what you’re saying.
    Some will ignore your conclusions no matter how much evidence you furnish – I regard them as ‘willfully ignorant’. Others, if they’re sufficiently interested, will hunt down the truth for themselves – we really have no excuse with Google at our fingertips.

    And I think my response back in my 3:34 pm comment:
    Islam will take all the rights democracy offers it, while reciprocating not one iota in return. When I’m free to preach the gospel in Muslim countries without persecution then perhaps I’ll reconsider my stance, but until such time I will fiercely resist Islam with every fibre of my being.

    – closely agrees with your ‘Russian response’.

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  144. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 4:41 pm,

    For all I know they could be lurking in Kiwiblog trying to convert people.

    Heaven forbid that that should be the case. I can hardly imagine a fate worse than someone showing the degree by which God loves them, and the means by which they can avail themself of that love. Absolutely terrible!

    And I am only against the system of Islam – I’ll happily give the gospel to any Muslim that will listen. My God loves all men, including Muslims.

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  145. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Labrator
    I wouldn’t insult you with a man of Straw.

    Do you know what those Islamic words mean?
    Do you understand them in the context of the sentence?

    It is a simple question and a necessary one.

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  146. Hurf Durf (2,860 comments) says:

    “Islamophobia” is one of the more funniest terms to have been excreted out of the 2000s.

    As for this, what did you expect from Grammar boys?

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  147. joe90 (273 comments) says:

    Here’s a disturbing story on the rise of Pentecostal fundamental Christianity in Africa and the consequences for some young children accused of witchcraft:

    Churches involved in torture, murder of thousands of African children denounced as witches.

    And some information on these churches’ connections with American Pentecostals.

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  148. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Should we be suspicious of all Christians because of that Joe? They have a bit of a history….

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  149. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Scripture for Kris K

    “Everybody knows that the plague is coming”

    And one question from this more earthly being: just how does practicing repression, as you suggest you wish to do, assist in spreading ideals of tolerance and freedom?

    We are under no obligation to succumb to extremist Islam. Like with Exclusive Bretheren, Moonies and Scientology, to name but a few, we should remain vigilant and dig in our toes and, in the words of Obama at his rhetorical best, rather than the example of our power, use the power of our example.

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  150. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen 7:52 pm,

    And one question from this more earthly being: just how does practicing repression, as you suggest you wish to do, assist in spreading ideals of tolerance and freedom?

    Anyone that thinks I’m all about spreading unqualified “tolerance and freedom” has me completely wrong. Tolerance and freedom only exist where there is an accepted and agreed set of standards. Islam fails on all counts. We accept Islam in our midst at our own peril and likely destruction.

    We are under no obligation to succumb to extremist Islam.

    If that is true, then the west (including NZ in the near future) is doing a piss-poor job of not succumbing!

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  151. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Straw man, Kris, introducing ” unqualified.” We have our laws. And we have infinite ability to adjust our laws. But to do so on the blind, unreasoning prejudice you exhibit would be a very poor choice. You simply project your fears onto others.

    According to you, Kris, war is peace. But perpetual war is not peace.

    Here is an extract from a report you can find here: http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/pubs/DUSS_muslims.pdf

    “American Muslim communities as a whole are younger, better educated, and more
    well-off financially than the general public in the United States.The
    percentage of Muslims who have graduated from college (58%) is
    more than double the national rate, and half of American Muslim
    families have an annual income of over $50,000.”

    That was in 2003. Muslims appear to be over-represented in prison but I suspect that is a) the influence of African-American Muslims -locking up blacks is a US hobby) and 2) all the innocent Muslims locked up on spurious charges since 9/11.

    Basically, in a land that offers genuine opportunity, like the US, immigrant Muslims are a welcome addition to society. The contrast with Europe is stark. Makes one wonder just who are the racists in the West, doesn’t it?

    Now admittedly, European immigrants aren’t screened as they are for the US, but that just makes it all the more important to spend, spend, spend and welcome them into society. If that doesn’t happen, then basically it’s not the fault of Muslims.

    Unlike you, I am confident in this country’s ability to absorb Muslim immigrants. My wife’s school ended up with many Tampa kids and they were all great kids, with horrific stories, and most are high achievers.

    And just a note about the Grammar kids, I see they paid their penance today. Let’s leave them alone and move on.

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  152. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen 9:17 pm,

    Straw man, Kris, introducing ” unqualified.” We have our laws. And we have infinite ability to adjust our laws. But to do so on the blind, unreasoning prejudice you exhibit would be a very poor choice. You simply project your fears onto others.

    Don’t you worry Luc, if Islamic immigration continues then our laws will indeed be ‘adjusted’. It’s called Sharia law. And there are pretty good justifications for me ‘projecting my fears onto others’.

    That was in 2003. Muslims appear to be over-represented in prison but I suspect that is a) the influence of African-American Muslims -locking up blacks is a US hobby) and 2) all the innocent Muslims locked up on spurious charges since 9/11.

    And I suspect it’s because a high number of Muslims in prison are terrorists, and deserve to be there. I imagine you also believe the high number of Maori in prison is a result of it being a NZ hobby to lock up Maori – not because they perpetrate a disproportionate number of crimes in NZ.

    Now admittedly, European immigrants aren’t screened as they are for the US, but that just makes it all the more important to spend, spend, spend and welcome them into society. If that doesn’t happen, then basically it’s not the fault of Muslims.

    Your implication that only poor, uneducated Muslims are the root cause for Muslim ‘actions'; that they only act because of Western oppression, is naive. Let’s not forget that most/all of the Muslim terrorists that perpetrated the 911 attacks in the US were highly educated, and came from well to do families. Osama bib Laden is another example of this. As were many of those involved in the attacks in London, etc.

    Islam has always been spread by the sword; one needs only read of Mohammed’s exploits of betrayal and murder. And your wrong; Muslims are entirely at fault and are responsible for their actions. If the west doesn’t hold them to account then Islam will roll over the top of democracy without even the slightest prick of conscience. And you, Luc, will be just another one of their victims in their drive to achieve a global Islamic hegemony. Good luck with that.

    Unlike you, I am confident in this country’s ability to absorb Muslim immigrants. My wife’s school ended up with many Tampa kids and they were all great kids, with horrific stories, and most are high achievers.

    Oh, we will absorb them alright. And once they achieve critical mass they will absorb us, and NZ will become just another country which will have been transformed into an Islamic state. But until such time I will continue to voice my opposition to the ‘religion of peace’ and the Satanically inspired writings of its false prophet. Satanic Verses indeed.

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  153. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Actually Kris, locking up Maori is very definitely a NZ hobby. Why don’t you talk to John Tamihere (no soft touch on Maori issues) about disparities in sentencing for brown and white offenders (Radio Live)

    I like you setting up an argument about poor Muslims I never remotely implied. Good Orwellian tactic. And so patronising.

    Then you just descend once again into fantasy. You actually confuse conquest, a venture the West is well versed in, with the spread of Islam. It’s normal for conquered peoples to convert to the religion of the more powerful occupier. Islam did not force conversion, and was, in fact, reasonably, although not to our standards these days, largely tolerant of other religions, but it was an attractive proposition for the colonised to convert so as to benefit from the advantages available to Muslims.

    Not the least of these advantages was the right to multiple wives. That alone is a damned good reason for conversion, surely. ;-) I could move my two previous wives back in ;-)

    And have you forgotten the wars fought in the name of Christianity? Have you forgotten the Crusades, where the Christian Crusaders slaughtered Jews and Muslims alike? South America?

    Both Christianity and Islam have the same theoretical goal of world domination, as a religion. Both have fanatics like you in their midst. We must resist both, if we need to, but the fact is that Muslim immigrants here only want to succeed in and for their adopted country. Don’t you catch cabs? Just ask a driver.

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