This is what Winston and the Greens oppossed
October 1st, 2009 at 5:45 am by David FarrarThe Herald reports:
A year ago today New Zealand’s free trade agreement with China came into effect.
The results so far show it to be a big success, says New Zealand Trade and Enterprise’s general manager for North Asia, Rod McKenzie.
New Zealand exports to China climbed to more than $3.3 billion in the year to June 30 – an increase of 61 per cent on the previous year.
Clark and Goff did very very well with the China FTA. I regard it as their finest foreign policy achievement, even though their own Foreign Minister campaigned against it.
Related posts:
- US v China
- What the Greens and Winston voted against
- Growing exports
- Peters must vote for the FTA or resign
October 1st, 2009 at 5:59 am
The Greens?, the Greens?, the Greens?, the Greens?, the Greens?
No, doesn’t ring a bell with respect relevant political parties.
It does however ring a bell with respect investment properties paid for by the taxpayer.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 6:14 am
It’s worth noting an example under MMP where the dog succeeded with a significant policy despite it’s tail wagging in opposition.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 6:47 am
That is because ol Winnie is a r….d (word meaning not that bright) who managed to learn how to manipulate the New Zealand weak people through the New Zealand media.
Like that would be hard to do.
If I was on a law case and they said the opposing party was represented by Winnie, first I would ask, what media coverage has he managed to get?
The retarded journalistic community of NZ allowed and built up Winston, then when they were being embarrassed by Winnie they turned the knives on him.
I hope fatally this time.
He is a sleezy joke, so please bury him once and for all, TVNZ, after all he is your abomination creation.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 6:50 am
The Greens keep calling for fair trade. They don’t understand the only fair trade is free trade.
Vote:Ele Ludemann
October 1st, 2009 at 7:08 am
That means please no more interviews with our genius cutting edge ex political editor.
Ineffective walrus journalist: But Winston you are alive?
Winnie: Well, yes I am.
Walrus: But hang on Winston, people say…don’t you think…?
Winnie: I totally deny that in fact (holding up sign that says “No!”).
Walrus: Oh Winston, you are always a tough man to interview but always a pleasure to interview, you rascal you!
Winnie: Thanks my pleasure as always.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 7:28 am
…their own Foreign Minister campaigned against it.
As did various dim-bulb right-wing bloggers, who would have been proclaiming it a great achievement if a National govt had achieved it. Stupid comes in a variety of political flavours.
[DPF: Name them! The only RW blogger I know against it was I think Trevor Loudon. But that is because he doesn't like communist states and his stance is the same regardless of Government in NZ]
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 7:58 am
Yay! Dealing with totalitarian communists!
[DPF: Communist in name only nowadays]
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 8:01 am
“Yay! Dealing with totalitarian communists!”
Not in my experience, well maybe a little bit totalitarian but not much communist.
Note that most of the increase in trade was milk powder, largely in response to the melamine scandal and not much to do with the FTA (as dairy doesnt yet benefit fully from that) so a little bit of lies, damn lies and statistics…
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 8:16 am
[DPF: Communist in name only nowadays]
So..we forgive those who are “Communists in name only nowadays”?
Looking foward to your edit everytime someone here calls Locke or Bradford ‘communist’
Guess not though, eh!
It is really something though, to listen to the rabid anti-communists here on Kiwiblog, turning themselves inside out to defend commies-that-are-worth-alot-of-money-to-us!
Commie-lovers!
[DPF: Engagement and trade with China has resulted in more freedom for the Chinese people, and more prosperity for China and the world.
Bradford and Locke both advocate policies more socialist than the Chinese Communist Party, so I'll leave it to you to work out the correct label]
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 8:24 am
Well they are still communist in the “state owns a crap load of productive assets and regulates a fair chunk of the economy” sense (although there is a huge privatisation wave going on at the moment) but not in the “command economy no private sector sense”.
Incidently in China they have no issues with things like toll roads, charging for access to public parks, market pricing, private provision of health care and so on which engage the citizens of so-called “market economies”.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 8:35 am
Incidently in China they have no issues with things like toll roads, charging for access to public parks, market pricing, private provision of health care and so on which engage the citizens of so-called “market economies”.
Or else they’d vote for the other guy?
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 8:46 am
@ stephen LOL, you are of course correct there isnt democracy as we know it but the parks and roads, for instance, are owned by the local authorities and so can do whatever they want and they tend to be very market responsive.
People I talk to are typically quite supportive of things like that, often wondering why it would even be controversial (you are using it, why shouoldnt you pay for it?).
I remain optimistic the Chinese people will get a democracy in time, although they have never known one (at least of the type we have) through their entire history so perhaps I am just naive.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 9:14 am
21st century China is probably one of the least communist economies in the world. It has more parallels with late 19th century early 20th century US than it does with (say) soviet Russia. One exception is the banking system but the rest of their economy is either third world agrarian or highly responsive to market impulses. The laws governing the coastal economic zones would have the most rabid right wing US industrialist salivating. I would imagine we have politicians in NZ (mostly in the Greens and Young Labour) who believe more in Marx and Engels than do any of the top Chinese leadership.
Its certainly not a democracy, but its even less of a communist economic system. The democratic bit will eventually happen driven by rising living standards.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 9:35 am
Astonishing! Learned today that China is not communist!
Can someone please contact the Communist Party of China and let them know!
(You’d think someone would’ve given them the ‘heads-up’!)
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 9:39 am
You think if something is called something it must BE something? Like the Green party should be Green or the Labour party should actually be about people who work?
Most people I deal with are members of the Communist Party. It’s just a club you need to be in (without the compulsion of a New Zealand student union of course). None of them are communists.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 9:46 am
Communist or not ..(they may be Communists but they were never that into it).. the fact remains that a lot of chaps here in New Zealand are earning a quid from the Free Trade Agreement and that will only continue and increase.
One of the good things about trading with China is that New Zealand hardline anti communist consumers can ‘choose’ whether to purchase good made in China, but I strongly suspect these fellows are too broke (the likely situation) or parsimonious to buy more expensive NZ made products and regularly slink into the Warehouse and buy a cheap Chinese made equivalent.
http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 9:50 am
Well Done Robert Black, to continue to ignore W Peters, unemployed of Herne Bay is the only sensible option.
Vote:Eventually this boil on the bum of the nation will fester and pop, then all the pain will be over, as long as the media reincarnates him he will never disappear.
October 1st, 2009 at 9:53 am
KiwiGreg, Re: user pays, yeah it seems pretty simple – i have no idea what their tax system is like, so if they’re getting er communist/socialist taxes but also with user pays it could be a bit of a rort. Officials may be ‘market responsive’ but also sound notoriously corrupt and without scruples – land grabs to raise money and all that jazz. Democracy would be nice, but some sort of folloing of ‘rule of law’ would be good too!
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 10:05 am
@ Stephen I worked on their tax reforms in 2000/2001, it’s a fairly orthodox system. Rates are fairly low, particularly for the “average” worker. There is a degree of corruption (not as bad as, say, Indonesia) and of course a huge amount gets done because of relationships. Once you get off the eastern seaboard, the world changes and the local officials have larger amounts of power.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 10:06 am
Anyone know what China ‘gets’ out of the deal? As in, what has come our way as a result of the deal, apart from the cash? I recall there was something about more working migrants or some damn thing.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 10:09 am
Thousand of more useless chinese knicknacks and piss poor quality tools, toiletries and so on are now sold in the growing discount stores’ markets.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 10:16 am
Yeah stuff people want at prices they can afford. Much better if we kept it all out and only bought quality New Zealand made products. Shame everyone doesnt feel that way, then we could eat all our own dairy products as well.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 10:22 am
Kiwi Greg – just don’t use the aftershave that the kids get you for Christmas from the $2 Shop. It is like battery acid.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 10:29 am
Brian I think that counts as ‘cash’. Not that we didn’t have that stuff already I thought. Sounds like you should tell the kids they don’t get to keep the money left over from the $10 you gave them!
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 10:36 am
LOL Brian – I wouldn’t use it. I also wouldn’t buy food products made in China as a general rule either (particularly peanut butter); I’m a big fan but I’m not totally stupid.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 10:53 am
China’s system these days is tyranny with selected capitalist elements. Its not something little old NZ could ever change through a narrow minded policy of non-engagement. On that basis we couldn’t trade with over half the world.
Frankly Chinese trade has and will continue to save our collective arses.
KiwiGreg: You probably have been buying food products from China for years but you just don’t know it. Next time you see “made from local and imported ingredients” on a product label in your kitchen have a wee think about what that means.
Vote:As for Chinese Peanut butter- have a look at the lab test results from a recent TV3 Target programme which tested peanut butter from both Aussie and Chinese sourced peanuts looking for pesticide residue. You might be surprised. I’m sure the Green party were bitterly disappointed.
October 1st, 2009 at 10:56 am
“China’s system these days is tyranny ”
I cant agree. I dont pretend my experience is typical or my sample size necessarily meaningful but the Chinese government in my experience has broad popular support.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 10:58 am
How good to see some people still have such terrible misconceptions about modern day China. The same China that despite its human rights records, has a more aggressive capitialist agenda than NZ does… mind you that isn’t too difficult these days
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 11:09 am
stephen – They get $20 to buy all their presents for the family. The $2 is their favourite place. I have more Glasses repair kits, packets of superglue and hacksaw blades than you can shake a stick at.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 11:27 am
Genuine question – anyone know how much imports from China increased by? I think we need to hear that before we break out the champagne.
btw you guys are funny. You’re like Lewis Carroll’s Queen of Hearts – words mean what you what them to mean, and nothing else.
[DPF: I view imports increasing as also a good thing. It means fewer Chinese in poverty, and NZers are getting more affordable goods. It is about where our competitive advantage is, not about being the cheapest.]
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 11:28 am
Kiwi Greg: When a govt shuts down a support group and website started by parents whose children died in the earthquake last year and arrests selected members of this group who had been demanding an investigation into the contract awarding of poorly constructed state schools and they have no protection under the law from this action by state officials…well what do you call that if not a tyranny (with selected capitalist elements as I originally said)?
We all benefit from trade with China but we do need to at least be honest about what the Chinese govt is even if we can’t change it.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Clint (10:58am) is correct – China has more of a capitalist agenda than there is in New Zealand!
Surely that is a disgrace? surely under a National government our Country would be focused on creating wealth rather than thinking of ways to borrow and spend it?
There needs to be a substantial re-think of priorities in my opinion; we need tax cuts, red tape abolition, a business focused (rather than simply business ‘friendly’) approach from Government and the media and we need it urgently.
http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Of course it is good to see an increase in our exports, but as NANDOR states the report is one sided by how much did their exports to us increase. It’s the effect on balance of payments that matter.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Elijah
Vote:Cleaning out the Labour Augean stables that had accumulated corruption waste & evil over 9 years is a Herculean task that may take a decade or more to complete – I understand that a new stench has appeared in New York to complement the one emanating from a tall building in that city.
October 1st, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Shame they are a totalitarian state i would be happy to hear this news otherwise.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 5:01 pm
DPF – the question is not whether imports increased, but by how much. If (as seems likely) the gap between what we export and what we import widened in China’s favour, then it hardly seems like an economic benefit to NZ. Or maybe you can explain why increasing our trade deficit is a good thing?
Your comment in my post above, though, suggests you see it as some kind of foreign aid program?
ps KiwiGreg – maybe the Chinese Gov does have broad popular support. So did Hitler, Stalin and Milosevic.
[DPF: Exports to China increased 60% and imports from China increased 15% lowering the trade deficit.
And trading with a country is not aid. It is far far better than aid as it lifts people out of absolute poverty]
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 5:52 pm
From what I’ve seen exports of goods to China have increased much more than imports of goods from China. But this is only part of the story – I’ve no idea what has happened in terms of services, asset ownership and financial flows.
It will be interesting to see if China pulls out the clauses allowing it to slow down tariff reductions if they can demonstrate that a surge in dairy imports from NZ has hurt their own dairy industry.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Yeah let’s compare the two systems to show New Zealand is far better:
NEW ZEALAND – ridicilous political system, VOTED IN BY THE MAJORITY – a so called free “democracy” where all the retarded poilticians argue and nothing ever gets done so even when the country is prospering the money dissipates out of the economy.
Controlled media – totally controlled by money and individuals with little or no real objectivity (except blogging).
Controlled UNFREE MARKET depending upon who is making the rules at the time. Controlled by outside markets, currency value impossible to fight as NZ has nothing to fight it with.
Fruit, vegetables, fish meat and dairy products must be cheap in a country where they are so abundant right?
Ever tried bargaining for a piece of clothing in a New Zealand shop? Or any shop for that? That’s a free market there in ol Kiwiland?
CHINA – Totalitarian, monopolistic…ie., Things get done quickly.
Controlled media by the government, well, at least money isn’t the driving factor.
Free market – absolutely. Buy what you want where you want at a price you can bargain and that is not controlled.
Vote:October 1st, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Oh I forgot to add:
NEW ZEALAND – dangerous place to live, very high violent crime rate, cultural unrest.
CHINA – very safe place to live, cultural unrest in two or three provinces.
Vote:October 2nd, 2009 at 9:38 am
@ Richard I dont know anything about the case you cite. Certainly the Chinese government ruthlessly suppresses the Falun gong, local government officials exploit peasants through land grabs, minorities are diluted through internal han migrations and such like. However there is rule of law (not everyone can afford it) and the average Chinese person is better off now than at any other time in history I would think. They are certainly richer, definately safer and probably no less “free” than they have been in the past.
@ Nandor Your comparison with Hitler and Stalin was valid when Mao was in power as all three of them were murderous thugs but it’s not valid today. The Chinese government isn’t mass murdering people.
Vote:October 2nd, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Look how many Chinese are driving tourists around. many don’t get wages, they make a good living on tips and commissions. One company Sky Tours does a roaring trade providing for local (new) Chinese and Australian Chinese.
Then there are the land bankers…..
http://nbr.infometrics.co.nz/column.php?id=409
Vote:October 4th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Yeah the Greens opposed the free trade agreement, but not because of the increase in trade it would bring, as DPF seems to insinuate.
They raised a number of issues around human rights, environmental protection, impacts on local manufacturers, tibet, fair trade and so on. If anyone here feels like getting the other side of the story, have a browse of this.
[DPF: So you think Tibet will be better off if we export less to China? You think China will be able to do more to protect the environment if they are poorer not richer?]
Vote:October 4th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Economic growth has made a lot of difference to Chinese attitudes to the environment, and prosperity has meant that more funding has become available for endangered species projects.
A good example of this has been the remarkable turn around in the fortunes of the Chinese alligator. 10 years ago we were picking that this would be the first large vertebrate in years to become extinct. Decline has been arrested and a successful reserve established near Shanghai. Note that because this was a crocodilian, the support of the international NGO community was somewhat lacking. This was a recovery achieved largely out of Chinese efforts with some support of the IUCN Crocodile Specialist Group.
It is an interesting time to be working on conservation in China.
Vote: