Abortion and Mental Health

November 4th, 2009 at 7:25 am by David Farrar

NZPA report:

Researchers who examined the medical history of more than 500 women have concluded “leads to significant distress in some”.

Women reporting adverse reactions were up to 80 per cent more likely than women not exposed to abortion to have mental health problems, the Otago University study found.

I am not surprised. I can think of few things more challenging that the decision to have an abortion.

I find it interesting that amongst female friends I have discussed abortion with, almost all of them are 100% pro-choice, yet almost all of them say they would not have an abortion if they got pregnant – even if the father was not someone they are in a long-term relationship with.

Professor David Fergusson, of the department of Psychological Medicine, and his team studied data from women who had been interviewed six times between the ages of 15 and 30, each time being asked whether they had been pregnant and, if so, what the outcome of that pregnancy had been.

More than 85 per cent of women reported a least one negative emotional reaction, including sorrow, sadness, guilt, regret, grief and disappointment. …

The study found that women who reported at least one negative reaction had rates of mental health problems “approximately 1.4 to 1.8 times higher than women not exposed to abortion”.

Which sounds significant.

The report concluded: “This evidence raises important questions about the practice of justifying termination of pregnancy on the grounds that this procedure will reduce risks of mental health problems in women having unwanted pregnancy.

“There is no evidence to support the assumptions underlying this practice, and the findings of the present study suggest that abortion may, in fact, increase mental health risks among those women who find seeking and obtaining an abortion a distressing experience.”

The current law is a convenient fiction. We effectively have abortion on demand. I think it would be appropriate to amend the law to reflect the practice.

It said the findings did not support the extremes of either the pro-abortion, or pro-life camps. They were “not consistent with strong pro-life positions that depict unwanted pregnancy terminated by abortion as having devastating consequences for women’s mental health”.

Nor did they “support strong pro-choice positions that claim unwanted pregnancy terminated by abortion is without mental health risks”.

Extremes are rarely right.

Earlier findings from the same study, when the women were aged up to 25, found more than 40 per cent of those who had an abortion suffered depression afterwards, nearly double the rate of those who had never been pregnant.

The comparison I would fin d most interesting is between those who had an unwanted pregnancy and gave birth, and those who had an unwanted pregnancy and had an abortion.

Of course that will merely reflect an average. Each situation is unique, which is why I support it being a personal choice for each woman, not a decision for the state.

Tags:

170 Responses to “Abortion and Mental Health”

  1. Seán (396 comments) says:

    It said the findings did not support the extremes of either the pro-abortion, or pro-life camps. They were “not consistent with strong pro-life positions that depict unwanted pregnancy terminated by abortion as having devastating consequences for women’s mental health”.

    …but they do support the mainstream pro-life camp that having an unwanted pregnancy terminated by abortion does have adverse consequences for women’s mental health.

    Nor did they “support strong pro-choice positions that claim unwanted pregnancy terminated by abortion is without mental health risks”.

    Obviously.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. homepaddock (431 comments) says:

    Macdoctor posts on this too: http://www.macdoctor.co.nz/2009/11/03/abortion-is-maddening/

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. annie (537 comments) says:

    One of the problems here is that alternatives to, and pitfalls associated with, termination of pregnancy are rarely explained to pregnant young women seeking a termination. Pre-termination counselling is usually closer to farce than thought-provoking for the woman.

    A woman seeking termination needs to know that there are 3 alternatives – termination, keeping the baby, and adoption, and how each option works. She also needs to be advised that she needs to be able to look back on her decision and be comfortable that she made the best choice she could under the circumstances, and also needs to be warned that some people deeply regret having had a termination, and that this can trigger depression and grief long-term.

    Admittedly, most women cope very well with termination – but a minority don’t.

    macdoctor’s explanation of the research in the above link is excellent.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. big bruv (13,292 comments) says:

    Please, please please can this thread be about the issue of abortion and not one where the bible bashers and the anti western religion pinko’s trade insults.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Please, please please can this thread be about the issue of abortion and not one where the bible bashers and the anti western religion pinko’s trade insults.

    Agreed bb but I think you’re asking a bit much.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,795 comments) says:

    Putting Christian morality to one side for a moment, it strikes me as more than crazy that we slaughter eighteen thousand of our children each year and then run around the place looking for immigrants because we don’t have enough people.

    [DPF: Immigrants add to economic growth. Children only add to economic growth once they are working and paying taxes. And Freakonomics suggests that allowing abortion, is good for the economy by reducing the welfare bill. Now that is not a reason to allow abortion, but neither is the need for a higher population a reason to ban it]

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. NeilM (370 comments) says:

    “The current law is a convenient fiction. We effectively have abortion on demand. I think it would be appropriate to amend the law to reflect the practice.”

    Ideally yes, but it’s a fiction for a reason and it’s a fiction that works. It was how politicians on both the Left and Right kicked the issue into touch. Much like what happened with S59. Amending the law to relfect reality would lead to a very nasty debate that would consume to and energy better spent eslewhere.

    Just like S59. Perhaps NZ could patent the Fictional Method of dealing with the culture wars and sell it overseas.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. nickb (3,659 comments) says:

    “Please, please please can this thread be about the issue of abortion and not one where the bible bashers and the anti western religion pinko’s trade insults.”

    haha. what cha said

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. dad4justice (7,776 comments) says:

    Oh, poor big blouse wants the thread free of bible bashers and pinko’s. Of course, any other requests Miss Blouse? Talking about an abortion and bad mental health, haha.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. Pete George (22,839 comments) says:

    Maybe it’s working ok now. The underclass have virtual abortion on demand. And the rest have enough intelligence to make sensible decisions and will end up having their 2.3 kids regardless, at optimum timing.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. tvb (4,205 comments) says:

    An unplanned pregnancy especially where there is no supportive partner must be a daunting prospect. The financial implications for a single working mother must be huge, so the temptation for an abortion must be great. And I suppose many women go through with it and suffer consequences afterwards. I do not know what the answer is but counselling BEFORE the procedure must be available. I think a women in her 20s would need to think very carefully before undergoing an abortion. I can accept the very young, the old and the usual reasons such as rape, incest, risk to mother’s health and deformity.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. big bruv (13,292 comments) says:

    Yeah righto D4J, a thread where one side quotes the bible and the other their hard left agenda is really going to help aye.

    As it happens I did not ask for bible bashers and pinko’s not to comment, I asked it it might be possible for them to leave their agenda’s aside.

    Not that I expect an idiot like you to understand.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. dad4justice (7,776 comments) says:

    More insults big blouse, how about you save them for our meeting.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    We’ve seen plenty of what happens to unwanted babies that get born…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. andrei (2,500 comments) says:

    The current law is a convenient fiction.

    And the real fiction is that abortion is not the murder of an innocent human being.

    Of course the mother knows this deep down which is why there are mental health consequences are as reported.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. peterwn (3,160 comments) says:

    This needs creative thinking. Perhaps such mums who choose not to have an abortion can go in a draw for a free overseas holiday to Italy, free admission to the Vatican Museum and an audience with His Holiness. Trip can be deferred for 10 years until kids grow up (they are included).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. stephen (4,063 comments) says:

    The financial implications for a single working mother must be huge, so the temptation for an abortion must be great.

    You forget that battling to raise a kid by yourself for close to two decades entitles one to a life of luxury on the DPB, and so why would anyone want an abortion?! ;-)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. John Cawston (909 comments) says:

    “Putting Christian morality to one side for a moment, it strikes me as more than crazy that we slaughter eighteen thousand of our children each year and then run around the place looking for immigrants because we don’t have enough people.”

    And (rounded figures) about half those abortions apply to the 25% of ethnic minorities, 4000 for Maori, 2000 PI and 3000 Asian. So 25% account for 50% of the abortions.

    On a different tack, ACC covers the “accident” of rape with counseling, so how long before ACC also covers the “accident” of abortion and associated counseling?

    And just to be bloody minded.. why would you, as an Atheist and/or libertarian, allow the state to determine whether you can have an abortion and when?

    And as a religious person, why would you allow the state to determine whether its right to kill an unborn child?

    In both cases, we allow the State to determine matters of life or death and totally degrade the concepts of freedom, religion and the notion that an individual is a sovereign being with its own inalienable rights that are independent of Government.

    JC

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. itsallapriori (31 comments) says:

    @John – “[W]hy would you, as an Atheist and/or libertarian, allow the state to determine whether you can have an abortion and when? And as a religious person, why would you allow the state to determine whether its right to kill an unborn child?”

    It’s rather simple. Abortion should always be available, free, and safe, and accompanied with adequate and responsive counseling and, if necessary, psychiatric support. And the state does get to determine when its right to kill in the name of preserving freedom; most people consider defensive war to be a state’s right: so why should the justified killing in the name of freedom not be a right for women? Religious people have wars all the time.

    If we are worried about the psychological effects, then we should have legislation that doesn’t tell women they have to be mentally or physically endangered by the foetus. We should have a societal openness about abortion, rather than a culture of shunning and shame.

    I question the validity of the conclusion that abortion is causally related to psychological harm. Perhaps it is an INUS condition, but I would imagine, much like a recent article written on the psychological benefits of unprotected sex for women, that there is more going on in terms of social meaning attached to certain events than anything intrinsic about the event itself. In the unprotected sex article, it has been posited that there is more evidence to suggest that the deeply catholic society the research was conducted in, the people using condoms were mostly engaging in premarital sex, for which the woman is given the social meaning of shame and valuelessness. I imagine there is a similar comment that could be made about abortion in NZ society- so long as we have a discourse of “murder” and shame, then these meanings will be attached to the event of abortion, coinciding with the difficulties of the decision process to have the abortion.

    Also, the comment about “underclass” abortion on demand. Research this a bit more, eh. Most abortions are performed on middle aged women who already have children, and feel their families cannot sustain having more children.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Abortion always stops a beating heat, sometimes two.

    That’s why women almost always (even years later at the guilt) have depression after having them.
    As they have killed another human being which left alone would come out of their bodies and grace the world with their presence.
    That is why your female mates David say they wouldn’t have an abortion.

    Don’t you think the both the child’s parents should have a say, perhaps even the grandparents and whanau even?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. itsallapriori (31 comments) says:

    @MikeNZ “Don’t you think the both the child’s parents should have a say, perhaps even the grandparents and whanau even?”

    No. Not unless we develop a method of transferring the foetus from the female to another deciding party.

    Bodily integrity: women have it too.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Annie
    Admittedly, most women cope very well with termination – but a minority don’t.

    McDoctors point is clear.

    That isn’t so, most women have depression and for many it is reoccurring on the anniversaries.
    personally I think that is healthy as it is their humanity showing and whilst we don’t agree with lifestyle abortion, we would and do support women we know who suffer.

    Adolf
    lets not forget the fiction of closing schools because of falling rolls.
    18,000 kids a year are aborted, that 330 new entrant classrooms a year!
    It makes you think doesn’t it?

    I think we don’t do enough to support these woman that to have an adoption as their (and ours) best choice.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    I haven’t read the study, however an overlap between abortion and mental health problems could be for one or both of two possible reasons:

    1] Abortion can cause/exacerbate mental health problems.
    2] Women with mental health problems are more likely to terminate a pregnancy.

    The article tries to pin it all on case 1. There’s no mention of why that causation is favoured over the obverse. It’s entirely possible that women with mental health problems are more likely to choose a termination (and not necessarily as a direct result of the mental problems).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “so long as we have a discourse of “murder” and shame, then these meanings will be attached to the event of abortion,”

    ..and there is a good reason for that. Not the least that the white European is being increasingly out bred by other cultures, and their daughters will soon not have the choices they maintain they are ‘entitled’ to for all who think that way will have been replaced by those who see woman as strictly subordinate in social stratas.

    The daughters of white liberals will have nobody to progenerate with other than men who despise their ideas.

    Most (not all) women university graduates are brain washed receptacles of left wing social mores, and too blind to see that their aversion to off spring is signalling the defeat of the western world and all of the liberal ideas that are part of that world.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. big bruv (13,292 comments) says:

    Given the findings of this study there can be few justifications for what amounts to our “abortion on demand” policy.

    While no political party has the guts to have this debate again it is time that we did, the “right” to choose should be called for what it really is, state sanctioned murder.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. itsallapriori (31 comments) says:

    Hahahahahahaha Redbaiter.

    You assume that “white liberal women” would feel compelled to marry men who despise their ideas? Wherefore?

    That’s possibly the funniest anti-abortion argument I’ve ever read.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Malcolm
    Did you leave out option 3 deliberately?

    3. That women have depression because they had an abortion (and killed a growing kid inside them)!

    I’d like to think that Human bein gs wouldn’t just kill another without some downside to their mental health.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    RedBaiter, I’m having trouble following your point. It’s somewhat veiled. Are you saying:

    White European women shouldn’t have the choice of abortion (or use abortion), as that will allow other cultures to take over (by out-breeding white Europeans) and thus white European women will eventually have no choice but to breed with males from cultures which do not tolerate women’s rights, including the right to abortion?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Wherefore?”

    Are you completely thick?? Because they will have failed to breed men who think like them. They do not even have enough children to meet the required replacement rate. Then just compare the birth rates of the Muslim community to the traditional Jeudo Christian community. Do the demographics. Is so simple. There will be no choice, that’s “wherefore”.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “RedBaiter, I’m having trouble following your point.”

    Good. Fuck off and don’t worry about it. I don’t have time for loons driven mainly by narcissism.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    MikeNZ, your 3 is basically the same as my 1, except in your statement you’ve mixed correlation and causation:

    1] Abortion can cause/exacerbate mental health problems.
    ..
    3] That women have depression because they had an abortion (and killed a growing kid inside them)!

    I’m guessing this study only shows a correlation (i.e. mental health problems are more common in women who have had abortion). Causation is much harder to pin down. Causation could run either way. Your statement says that abortion causes the depression. It could be that mental health problems make a women more likely to have an abortion.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    I am not surprised that many women suffer depression both immediately after and years later after they have had abortions.

    They are joined to this other human not just physically but soul to soul and possibly spirit to spirit and deep down in their minds or heart they know and understand that they have killed another human being, despite all the denials and justifications by all those with a political and ideological interest in the issue.

    More importantly they understand that they could have carried that person to fruition and shared their world and life with them which is one of the biggest reasons they are alive and that little person with the world.

    Motherhood is core to being a woman in the main, it is very precious and we should be wary of belittling or ignoring it in this conversation.

    That they chose not to do that, is a very deep emotional decision even allowing for all the issues going on and around the decision at that time in their lives.

    This is a deep issue, so having depression is a normal reaction for a healthy woman which for someone with underlying issues or at risk that is exacerbated and quite devastatingly too sometimes.

    I have the greatest empathy for women having to come to grips with this in their lives.
    But lets think of the kids who die through abortion and all the Whanau and us as a society who lose out too.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. Mr Nobody NZ (397 comments) says:

    It would be interesting to know how much these mental illnesses are costing society in the form of Sickness Benefits, ACC Claims etc.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. Pete George (22,839 comments) says:

    Natural pregnancy problems such as miscarriages, death in utero and having sick and handicapped babies can be very traumatic as well, I suspect often with more effect on mental health than abortions.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    Good. Fuck off and don’t worry about it. I don’t have time for loons driven mainly by narcissism.

    Actually I think I understand your comment now. Correct me if I’m wrong, but basically you’re saying:

    White European women should breed with people like RedBaiter, otherwise there won’t be enough new people like RedBaiter, then those womens’ daughters will be sorry as they’ll be forced to breed with people like………… RedBaiter.

    It’s a little circular. But I can see your point. Kind of.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Pete
    Without actually being a woman/mother who has gone through either a natural death or unnatural I can’t say which is worse if either is.

    The effect (on the person) is affected by the perception of being a natural event (as a opposed to an unnatural one ) might ameliorate the pain/emotion over time better than the unnatural event (that is abortion) I would think.
    Part of that is the actual decision the mother made to kill the baby within her, can be buried in the rationalising within the event period and only be brought to the surface at a later time.

    But who can say? we know people who have lost their children from miscarriage to 17yrs and they all have a grief some years later.

    I know how much I love my family and can’t equate what I feel now to what my feelings of loss would be later on. I can only think the same is true for others.

    Either way ( a little death) there is a cost and depression is I think a natural outcome of the process and of being human.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. John Cawston (909 comments) says:

    “Most abortions are performed on middle aged women who already have children, and feel their families cannot sustain having more children.”

    Not so. Heres the ages of women having abortions:

    http://www.abortion.gen.nz/information/statistics.html

    As you can see, the bulk of abortions are between ages 15 and 30. Also, two thirds of the abortions are first time.

    JC

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    John
    Thank you that I had meant to reply to it and forgot in the writing.

    Mr Nobody
    It would wouldn’t it, from my point for interest not to use in argument?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    It’s a little circular. But I can see your point. Kind of

    Not quite Malcolm, Redbaiter wants to control other peoples wombs, in his own lovable totalitarian way.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    MikeNZ, there’s no such thing as a “soul” or “spirit”! And there’s not a “kid” inside them, it’s a collection of cells that can’t think yet.

    You’re entitled to your crazy beliefs, but there’s no truth to them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Tristanb
    That’s your belief of course :-)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Not quite Malcolm, Redbaiter wants to control other peoples wombs, in his own lovable totalitarian way.”

    I’ll bet you oppose the death penalty for solid murder convictions right Cha?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. John Cawston (909 comments) says:

    “MikeNZ, there’s no such thing as a “soul” or “spirit”! And there’s not a “kid” inside them, it’s a collection of cells that can’t think yet.”

    Regardless, you require permission from the State to remove them.. that technically requires you to come up with a self diagnosis of potential mental illness, in most cases.

    If its just a cancerous growth of cells inside, why do you require the permission of the State to remove them?

    JC

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    Yes, well, you all probably already know my opinion of abortion, and I agree with others that of course a woman is going to suffer depression – she can’t not really, knowing that she’s ended the life of her son or daughter.

    DPF may say “extremes are rarely right”, but I think there is an obvious winner in the kill/don’t kill debate.
    I find it really quite strange that we don’t have the death penalty anymore because it’s somehow not humane or somehow not befitting that society should kill anyone at all, even convicted murderers like Weatherston, yet somehow it’s OK to kill our unborn children who haven’t even had a chance to perform any act, right or wrong. It’s killing for convenience, and yet the same people who get upset at animals being dumped at Christmastime because they aren’t convenient to look after, have no trouble with disposing of unborn babies for practically the same reasoning.

    ps, check out this video on youtube – Planned Parenthood Director Resigns After Watching Ultrasound of Abortion Procedure

    Good on her. It’s good to see someone get a conscience, after being told she needed to get “more abortions in the door” because of the bad economy. Planned Parenthood has issued a restraining order because they could be “irreparably harmed by the disclosure of certain information” – makes you wonder what that is, ey?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. Scott (1,707 comments) says:

    Ah — the philosophical depth of today’s poorly educated Western liberal. Let’s not think about Christian morality or anything like that in making this decision about abortion.
    What pray tell, philosophical or spiritual tools would you suggest for considering this question?

    DPF says he thinks the law should reflect the practice (of abortion on demand). What is your reasoning DPF? Please explain yourself.

    Please explain how the death of 18,000 unborn New Zealanders doesn’t move you? How is it that Liberals can mourn the death of young seals in Canada and blue whales in the great Southern Ocean, crying buckets of tears, and are unmoved by the death of young New Zealanders, many who would survive outside of the womb?

    Like I try and be a reasonable bloke on this blog. But I must admit this gets me angry. Don’t you people care? If you don’t think it’s a person, look at a scan. Little hands, little feet, even a beating heart — there is irrefutably a baby in there.

    I have to be honest. I think many New Zealanders are a selfish bunch who don’t care about anything but themselves. Do you actually care about “a woman’s right to choose”. Or do you just care about having sex with whoever you want, whenever you want, with no thought about anybody else?

    Are we the hardest hearted people in the world or what?

    Is there anybody out there who actually cares?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. big bruv (13,292 comments) says:

    Scott

    I am not a liberal but even the idea of clubbing to death a baby seal or the wholesale slaughter of Whales in the southern ocean drives me into a rage.

    The fairer question for the liberal “abortion of demand” (and the low life partial birth abortion supporters) is the death penalty question, Pinko’s will defend abortion on demand all day long yet they think putting a bullet into the brain of Graham Burton and William Bell is a bad thing.

    Where is the logic in that argument?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. dad4justice (7,776 comments) says:

    “Is there anybody out there who actually cares?”

    Yes I care about the slaughtered children Scott.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. getstaffed (9,189 comments) says:

    it’s a collection of cells that can’t think yet.

    That’s a description of many lefties who comment here.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. LiberalismIsASin (288 comments) says:

    “I find it interesting that amongst female friends I have discussed abortion with, almost all of them are 100% pro-choice, yet almost all of them say they would not have an abortion if they got pregnant – even if the father was not someone they are in a long-term relationship with.”

    In other words, abortion is only fine for other people, not me. This comment is very revealing of the corrupt mindset that supports abortion.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. Angus (536 comments) says:

    And there’s not a “kid” inside them, it’s a collection of cells that can’t think yet.”

    Tristan, take a butchers at this:

    http://www.whatyouknowmightnotbeso.com/22-weeks.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. getstaffed (9,189 comments) says:

    Angus, evidence like that is quite alarming – and there’s plenty more of course. Expectant mothers (and fathers) know instinctively that their child’s life starts at conception. No amount of re-defining ‘life’ to suit the lifestyle-wishes of the mother can change that.

    Whether one opposed abortion of religious grounds (God says it’s wrong) or on atheistic grounds (It’s contra-evolutionary to kill one’s young) it’s still wrong IMO.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Religious points of view, usually based in this country on a particular 2000 year old, thereabouts, scientifically ignorant and ethically delinquent, worldview have no place in informing the laws of our secular state.

    Prohibiting abortion, as some here would seem to advocate, is counterproductive if one wants to reduce crime and increase the overall well being of our country. One reason for this is the the wealthy can always obtain a safe abortion somewhere, while the poor are forced into self-service or back streets. Those who fail to find the abortion they desire will then be trying to raise a child in an unforgiving environment where minimal support is only grudgingly provided, and even this support is subject to the whims of politicians who periodically impose punitive measures on the mother and, by extension, the child.

    I would actually be more inclined to not prohibit abortion but to actively, respectfully discourage it by by providing generous financial support and other assistance, such as encouraging further education for the mother and ensuring that meaningful, well paid jobs await her on completion. And most of all, somehow remove the mean minded prejudice exhibited by so many supposedly “right thinking” bigots.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. andrei (2,500 comments) says:

    Religious points of view, usually based in this country on a particular 2000 year old, thereabouts, scientifically ignorant and ethically delinquent, worldview have no place in informing the laws of our secular state.

    Unbelievable – what could be more “ethically delinquent” than murdering a child just because he or she poses an inconvenience to his or her parents? Hmmmm

    And as for ignorant well the so called enlightened have been responsible for more death and human misery than any other group in the history of mankind – starting with the Reign of Terror that ushered in “the Age of Reason”.

    You are, to put it bluntly Mr Hansen, a fool.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. Jeff83 (771 comments) says:

    “The fairer question for the liberal “abortion of demand” (and the low life partial birth abortion supporters) is the death penalty question, Pinko’s will defend abortion on demand all day long yet they think putting a bullet into the brain of Graham Burton and William Bell is a bad thing.”

    One would argue the logic lies in one being human and the other a featus. Where that featus becomes a human is really the point of debate, a strong pro lifer would argue that it begins at conception, a strong “pro choicer” at birth and the rest some where inbetween.

    Personally I have less issues with abortion being avaliable for the first 3 months (trimester) when the featus does not have many of things that are required to make it human. I have issues with it at any point after that except in the case of rape.

    I have respect for those who are more moderate in their anti abort stances (i.e. the Get Staffed’s of the world) but I disagree for the first period based on I think it is an individual morialistic choice.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    Luc, irregardless of religion, most societies recognize that killing is morally wrong – whatever they base those morals on.

    Whether you believe that what is growing inside the woman is a “collection of cells” or a developing baby, you can’t get past the fact that if it is not interfered with then it will eventually end up a person: perform the abortion and that person is gone from this world. That’s not religion, that is logic.

    Using your argument that poor people shouldn’t have children because they’re more likely to commit crime is distasteful to me. You are prejudging. How many of history’s great people grew up poor? Abraham Lincoln for example. One of those babies we’ve aborted already could have cured AIDS or done any number of wonderful things.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. chiz (1,119 comments) says:

    Andrei:And as for ignorant well the so called enlightened have been responsible for more death and human misery than any other group in the history of mankind – starting with the Reign of Terror that ushered in “the Age of Reason”.

    As opposed to all the people killed by religious nutters?

    Fletch:Whether you believe that what is growing inside the woman is a “collection of cells” or a developing baby, you can’t get past the fact that if it is not interfered with then it will eventually end up a person: perform the abortion and that person is gone from this world. That’s not religion, that is logic.

    That isn’t logic. It isn’t even true. An embryo does not always end up as a person. There is no one-to-one mapping between embryos and persons.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. Pete George (22,839 comments) says:

    My preference if looking at things in isolation is not to terminate or kill anything. But the realities of nature and of modern living can’t be discounted.

    If we still had birth rates of a hundred years ago and infant, child and young adult death rates of today we would have a huge population problem, far greater than the rapidly growing population problem we have.

    There are many ways of controlling birth rates – contraception, abstention, abortion – and all of these can deny possible lives. Most adults make choices that limit the number of lives they will create. If a couple decide they want, say, two children, then does it really matter to the end result what mix of methods they use to achieve this?

    Letting nature (or god’s will) take it’s course today would result in huge problems and could easily be a lot worse than the decisions that are currently made.

    In other words, open slather breeding could be morally wrong in it’s own way.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. MrTips (144 comments) says:

    [DPF: Immigrants add to economic growth. Children only add to economic growth once they are working and paying taxes. And Freakonomics suggests that allowing abortion, is good for the economy by reducing the welfare bill. Now that is not a reason to allow abortion, but neither is the need for a higher population a reason to ban it]

    Chiz : care to elaborate how embryos don’t become persons? Are you saying our understanding of basic biology is wrong?

    Oh yes, children create no demand at all for services, consumables and education. Yeah right. And Freaknomics likes the eugenist idea of aborting potential welfare recipients? Seriously, DPF, very lame and very unconvincing. Methinks you need to re-read your Econ 101.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. GPT1 (2,090 comments) says:

    current law is a convenient fiction. We effectively have abortion on demand. I think it would be appropriate to amend the law to reflect the practice.

    Society as a whole is a convenient fiction only upheld because the silent majority fear the alternative so I don’t see anything wrong with a few laws being convenient fictions.

    Hell’s teeth, you don’t go around poking ant hills with sticks just for shits and giggles.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. RRM (9,453 comments) says:

    If pregnant mother trips and falls, and the trauma of this leads to miscarriage, should she be guilty of charges of negligence or “failing to provide the necessities of life”?

    (Question for those expounding abortion = murder, full stop.)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  61. chiz (1,119 comments) says:

    Sometimes embryo don’t develop to term. Sometimes they split into two and become two persons. SOmetimes they fuse with another embryo to become a single person. In the latter case each embryo is only half a person. There is at least one documented case I know of where an embryo that would, categorically, have not been viable on its own (it was parthenogenic) did become viable by fusing with another embryo.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  62. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Andrei, a fetus is not a child, so your argument is based on a false premise. And neither is one’s religion an accurate indicator of propensity to evil, as any even cursory examination of history’s greatest slaughterer shows.

    Fletch, I do wish you would just ask instead of attributing to me worldviews I do not share. The simple fact is that if you read my previous post carefully, you wilI ascertain I simply asserted prohibiting abortion is counterproductive and that I prefer that society supports generously and fully mothers contemplating abortion. I recognise that my disapproval of abortion is purely an individual, emotionally grounded stance, so do not project that onto others. Instead I provide a rational solution to what is justifiably exercising your mind, maximising births and minimising abortions.

    And Fletch statistics do show that children from deprived backgrounds are less likely to succeed in life. My comment was an observation that you twist into a perverse conclusion, albeit one likely to draw no objection from many here, I suspect.

    I see no one so far has objected to my description of current attitudes to supporting poor or sole parents.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  63. Scott (1,707 comments) says:

    To give Luc Hanson his due he is trying to think of ways to minimise abortion — so good on you Luc for that. The problem is his constructive comments are so book ended by anti-Christian sideswipes such as “religion has no place in a secular state” and “right-thinking bigots”, that it is hard to sort the wheat from the chaff.

    The difficulty is the assertion that the fetus is not a baby. Many, many years ago when I was young and foolish, I was at an abortion clinic with my pregnant girlfriend. She asked “what is actually there?”
    The abortion councillor measured off her thumb and said it is just a lump of tissue the size of my thumb.
    My girlfriend seemed comforted by that.

    Afterwards I just knew what had been done was wrong. I just knew that I knew. Somewhere deep in our gut we just know when something we have done is wrong.

    However I put that thought aside until many years later. On a much happier occasion, this time with my wife, we visited the doctor to get a scan of our first baby, at about 12 weeks gestation. We saw little hands, little feet, I swear she was waving at us. “Looking forward to seeing you mum and dad, I will be out soon”, she seemed to be gesturing to us.

    But here is the thought that struck me. I remembered the visit to the abortion clinic and I realised that I had been lied to. It is not a collection of cells, it’s a baby in there. Once again, if you don’t believe me — just look at a scan. I had seen the scan — there is a baby in there.

    Any discussion of any abortion law needs to start from that premise. You don’t have to be a Christian to see that there is a baby in there. Just look at the scan and see the evidence with your own eyes

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  64. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    NZPA report:

    Researchers who examined the medical history of more than 500 women have concluded abortion “leads to significant distress in some”.

    Women reporting adverse reactions were up to 80 per cent more likely than women not exposed to abortion to have mental health problems, the Otago University study found.

    These findings provide further evidence that every individual KNOWS that abortion is nothing short of murder.
    No matter how much we may rationalise abortion, in our heart of hearts, ALL of us KNOW the truth.
    We have each been given a conscience; and our conscience bears testimony to the sanctity of ALL human life.

    And it is by our response to the voice of our conscience that each of us will be held to account.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  65. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Every life is a Buddha-to-be. End abortion, capital punishment, war, starvation and the slaughter of animals for luxury food.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  66. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Scotty, I always take the view that those loony godbotherers should be cut off at the knees, so I get my retaliation in first :-)

    And although I feel exactly as you do, I do not translate this personal emotion into potentially further criminalising the least fortunate in our society. At home, our children are spaced over a little more than 38 years, with our youngest being very much a surprise some 13 mths ago, and we were grateful for the fact that although we did not avail ourselves of the opportunity, the alternative of a termination was readily available.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  67. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    In Afghanistan Karzai said he will root out corruption.

    If I could draw, I would picture the newspaper report extract above his image being showered in dollar notes from the Americans, warlords and poppy farmers.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  68. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull 5:21 pm,

    I hope you’ve got your swim suit ensamble sorted out for your Miss World entry.

    And I take it the above is part of your acceptance speech should you receive the crown?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  69. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    That isn’t logic. It isn’t even true. An embryo does not always end up as a person. There is no one-to-one mapping between embryos and persons.

    chiz, that isn’t logical. If there were no embryo which could potentially become a baby, then there would be no decision needed by the mother as to whether to keep it or not: in the cases we’re talking about, we can assume that 100% of women who are deciding to have an abortion or not have an embryo that will be carried to term and produce a baby: that is the decision. So yes, an embryo DOES always end up a person ni the cases we’re talking about, unless there is an accident.

    So on one hand if the mother decides to do nothing, the outcome is a person: on the other hand if there is human interference, the person will never be. To me it’s that simple.

    Not to say that ‘imaginary’ embryos don’t happen. I saw a documentary on TV a few weeks back where a woman was interviewed who used to work at a clinic in the US, and she was saying there was a scam where women would go to the GP to test for pregnancy, and the GP would send them on for a procedure even though they weren’t pregnant; the things people will do to make money….

    Luc, sorry if I read the wrong thing in to what you were saying, but I still don’t subscribe to the ‘less poor children = less crime” argument. The Govt has a lot more to do with that, taking away discipline in schools and at home is causing more crime to my mind. I only have to think back to when i was growing up – what is the difference between then (when there was less crime perpetrated by children) and now?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  70. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    I believe abortion should be legal, simply because, on balance it causes less suffering to have abortion available than to make it a crime. I could easily be convinced that the 20 week limit is too high.

    Is abortion the same as killing a child. Yes, if you like. Is an embryo a baby? Not initially. But as it grows it slowly becomes a baby. If abortion is legal, then that point must be called. Maybe 20 weeks is far too long.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  71. Pete George (22,839 comments) says:

    egg+sperm becomes embryo, becomes fetus at about 8 weeks, becomes baby when it is born. Then infant (typically 1-12 months), then child.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  72. getstaffed (9,189 comments) says:

    Pete, what you’ve chronicled there is a progression of agreed names and stages of life.

    We could equally define and agree that life doesn’t commence until one starts paying tax, opening up a world of opportunities around a philu’s place.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  73. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    I’ve always wondered how the “life begins at conception and god hates abortion” brigade deal with the fact that about 50% of all human conceptions spontaneously abort ( most of them before the mother ever knew she was pregnant), thus making god the greatest abortionist in the world ? About 50% of the population of heaven must be made up of tiny blobs of embryonic cells. Or is it 50% of the population of hell ? After all you can’t get into heaven without being baptised so I guess the blobs are fucked…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  74. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete 7:22 pm,

    … and here I was thinking life didn’t begin ’til forty.

    You really are just playing with semantics, Pete.

    … embryo … fetus … are just convenient terms by which we try to de-humanise the unborn child in an attempt to salve our consciences when we take their innocent lives.

    Increased mental illness in those women who abort their own child bears testimony to this.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  75. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Put it away 7:29 pm,

    I’d more worry about the fact that about 100% of the population of the globe are going to die (I guess you’ll blame God for that too). And that you are included in that number; and whether or not you were baptised as an infant, without Christ, you’re the one that is f@#ked …

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  76. getstaffed (9,189 comments) says:

    Put it away – I think that’s more of a ‘manufacturers recall’ situation, rather than after-sale willful damage.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  77. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Kris, so in other words you don’t have an answer to the question ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  78. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Getstaffed – LOL at god’s 50% manufacturer’s failure rate, I’d have more confidence in chinese electrical appliances from the Warehouse

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  79. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    Anybody pontificating about the rights and wrongs of abortion necessarily needs to first know exactly what it is and what those “blobs of cells” really are.
    It would also be necessary for every teenager to know these things as part of sex education to be properly informed of the decision they may have to make.
    There is a wealth of material that can be used for this purpose.
    The following was very useful for me to understand this issue a little better:

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  80. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    “Kris, so in other words you don’t have an answer to the question ?”

    I do.
    Scripture makes it clear that death and suffering will increase as the end of the age approaches, the sin that entered creation through the actions of people has had a devastating effect on all life including human.
    The viability and reliability of human health is entirely consistent with scripture, so your faulty God argument is irrelevant.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  81. Pete George (22,839 comments) says:

    A fetus cannot be a viable life until about 22 weeks, until then it must remain in the womb attached to and part of the mother.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  82. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Shunda – ahhh so it’s the blobs of cells fault their ancestors “sinned” a few thousand years previously and thus it’s entirely justified that 50% of the population of hell were damned without even getting the chance to be born, baptised and saved by the blood of Jeeeeeesus-ah !!! ? Wonderful person this god of yours, where do I sign up.
    You sure god and the devil didn’t swap places at some point ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  83. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Put it away 8:13 pm,

    Kris, so in other words you don’t have an answer to the question ?

    I believe the Bible shows that all those that die in the womb, and including children up to the age of accountability (say perhaps 5-6 years old) who die, go to be with God in heaven. The trouble begins when we get to an age where we are aware of our sinful nature – it is at this point where we require redemption for our sin.

    Probably not the answer you wanted, but there it is.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  84. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 8:25 pm,

    A fetus cannot be a viable life until about 22 weeks, until then it must remain in the womb attached to and part of the mother.

    And an infant is not viable without the care and nurture of its parents up until say 4 years old.

    More semantics, Pete.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  85. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Kris, but how can that be, everyone’s loaded up with original sin at conception, inheriting the sin of the human race, and the only way to clear that is apparently to repent your sins and accept Jayyyyysus-ah !, neither of which a blob of cells is capable of…
    Which bible verse do you belive says that the blobs are in heaven ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  86. Pete George (22,839 comments) says:

    Once a bay is born it can survive with the help of any number of people. Until it about 22 weeks there is one person that the fetus is totally reliant on. That isn’t semantics, it is biological facts.

    Anyway, we are just a bunch of theorising guys. We ‘t really have no idea what it is like to be pregnant.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  87. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    Put it away it sounds like you think you are pretty clever but honestly your points are easily explained by scripture, they are not strong evidence against the good character of God as you suppose they are.
    So back to the topic, do you believe that the termination of viable human beings is a positive trait of a civilised society? Is it good for the human species to encourage “smart” women to terminate their young? would that make society smarter in the long run?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  88. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Do you believe that the termination of 50% of unborn babies is a positive trait of a civilised god ? Just take a second to think about that. Read it slowly. Fif-ty per-cent of all un-born ba-bies. You think it’s fine to casually wave that away as unimportant to the argument ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  89. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Put it away 8:35 pm,

    Kris, but how can that be, everyone’s loaded up with original sin at conception, inheriting the sin of the human race, and the only way to clear that is apparently to repent your sins and accept Jayyyyysus-ah !, neither of which a blob of cells is capable of…

    If you REALLY want the answers then I suggest you get a good Bible and read it!

    Specifically read about King David and his attitude towards the death of his son Absalom, and contrast that with his attitude toward his infant son (he had with Bathsheeba) who died. When you have mastered that you will better understand my 8:28 pm comment.

    Or you can choose to ignore my advice.
    The dilemma of a God-given free will.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  90. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Chapter and verse Kris, where does it say the blobs of cells are in heaven, wwhich would be contrary to everything else said about the new testament about the requirements for getting in there, if they haven’t repented, been baptised, and accepted jaysus-ah !

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  91. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    “Do you believe that the termination of 50% of unborn babies is a positive trait of a civilised god”

    Where did you get the 50% figure from?
    One thing we do know is the overwhelming majority of clinical abortions are terminating perfectly viable human beings, most of that 50% you quote disappear unnoticed, you said so yourself, which would suggest the overwhelming majority of that figure were not viable to start with.
    Thank God that he spares women the mental trauma that our health system inflicts on them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  92. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Put it away 8:50 pm,

    You’ve made your choice – I’ll bid you good night.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  93. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Kris – as usual your answer to the tricky questions is a rather childish “nya nya nya, you’re going to hell !”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  94. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    Put it a way, smart women terminating there pregnancies, a good thing?
    Think a-bout it very care-ful-ly.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  95. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    “Kris – as usual your answer to the tricky questions is a rather childish “nya nya nya, you’re going to hell !”

    Where did he say that? all he asked you to do was study a reference to better help you understand his position.
    You don’t like Christains, fine, but really honestly a compelling argument against terminating viable human beings does not require Christian faith at all.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  96. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Shunda – so you praise god for providing convenient abortion for the 50% ? Interesting….

    You can find many references to the 50% figure by googling, e.g. http://www.medicinenet.com/miscarriage/article.htm
    The wikipeida article on miscarriage references a study that “found that 61.9% of conceptuses were lost prior to 12 weeks, and 91.7% of these losses occurred subclinically, without the knowledge of the once pregnant woman” ( ^ Edmonds DK, Lindsay KS, Miller JF, Williamson E, Wood PJ (1982). “Early embryonic mortality in women”. Fertil. Steril. 38 (4): 447–453. PMID 7117572.)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  97. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Shunda what makes you think “smart women” are terminating pregnancies, unless it’s the ethnic stats on pregnancy, if so please do elaborate…
    “Smart” women are more likely not getting pregnant in the first place if they don’t want to be pregnant. It seems to me someone uneducated or unintelligent is more likely to have an unwanted pregnancy, by your own argument therefore abortion is a good thing for the population.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  98. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    Does it say why they were lost? trying to draw some conclusion on this as evidence of a malicious God is ridiculous.
    What we do know is that humans are killing a viable human being in almost every clinical abortion performed and they have no fore knowledge of that potential humans life or the worth thereof.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  99. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    So put it away, you are seriously suggesting that only stupid people are getting abortions? none done for career reasons? I think you will find that certain sectors of society are more likely to whip there daughter off for an abortion than others.
    the falling IQ of the western world would seem to indicate that we have in fact aborted a few geniuses.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  100. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Shunda you’re trying to wave it away and make it dissapear again. Think about it, for every one born, one ( and possibly even more) was created and spontaneously aborted by your loving god. 6 billion people currently on earth, so at least 6 billion blobs of unbabtised, unforgiven, cells in Hell. What kind of evil and/or incompetence makes your god do want to do that to probably the *majority* of all the souls he ever created ? And you praise this god ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  101. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Shunda do have a problem with reading comprehension ? How do you read “more likely” as “only” ? Please pay attention. This isn’t the bible – you’re expected to make sense here…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  102. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    “It seems to me someone uneducated or unintelligent is more likely to have an unwanted pregnancy,”

    I agree, abstinence clearly needs to be taught during sex ed classes.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  103. dad4justice (7,776 comments) says:

    “Sense” in an abortion thread, put it away in a sky rocket fool.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  104. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Shunda “I agree, abstinence clearly needs to be taught during sex ed classes.”

    So now you *want* the “smart women” not to have babies ? Make your mind up, are smart women’s babies a good thing or not ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  105. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    “Think about it, for every one born, one ( and possibly even more) was created and spontaneously aborted by your loving god. ”

    If you are going to persist with a spiritual cause for these “abortions” you need to tell me how you have ruled out the interaction of the other spiritual beings mentioned in scripture.

    “6 billion people currently on earth, so at least 6 billion blobs of unbabtised, unforgiven, cells in Hell. ”

    You presuppose the existence of such a place for your argument so lets discuss it as if the bible is in fact true.
    The “hell” mentioned in the bible is a spiritual realm outside of time as we know it in our existence, the bible makes it clear that Christ descended into this place after his death and preached the gospel in order that justice was made available for all who were in that place due to not partaking of the atonement.
    At the end of the day God claims that he is just and fair to all people regardless of the state or time of their existence, I have faith that he is true to his word.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  106. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    “So now you *want* the “smart women” not to have babies ? Make your mind up, are smart women’s babies a good thing or not ?”

    It is not good for kids to get pregnant, I don’t recall there being many adults in sex ed when I was at school.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  107. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    LOL and the blobs of cells were listening attentively to this gospel despite lacking ears, a brain ?
    What other spiritual beings are you talking about, are you saying someone other than god created these lifeforms ? If he made a foetus that was going to die in the first few days, hours, minutes or seconds since conception, that’s his responsibility. If it’s not his fault for making them that way, who’s is it ? Are you claiming demons create life as well ? Bit of an encroachment on god’s traditional turf don’t you think ?

    And the bible says nothing about being fair, it says certain souls were “elect” from the dawn of time, entirely at god’s discretion. Looks like the blobs were out of luck.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  108. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    It’s a crock of shit to claim as Kris does, and you seem to, that the bible says the souls of the unborn go to heaven. It doesn’t. That’s why xtian “thinkers” have been arguing the point since Augustine onwards. Why do you think the catholics invented Limbo Infantum ? Would they have bothered if the bible had something nice to say about fate of the unborn ? There’s nothing in the bible that excepts the unborn from the usual rules of salvation – baptism, repentence and believing in jayyyyyysus-ah.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  109. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    I am sure if God is just as he claims, he is capable of sorting it out.
    You seem to think you have got the smoking gun, I just don’t see it. But lets be honest, you have had a crack at the Jayyyyyysus-ah freaks, and it makes you feel gooooood.
    Glad to assist.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  110. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Shunda – “It is not good for kids to get pregnant, I don’t recall there being many adults in sex ed when I was at school.”

    Shunda you can’t keep your argument straight for five minutes at a time. You introduced the idea of abstinence education when we were talking about preventing pregnancy in adult “smart women”, and now you take a rhetorical position that you were talking about kids and not adults. Make your mind up.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  111. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Shunda “I am sure if God is just as he claims, he is capable of sorting it out.”

    The only way he can “sort it out” is if all the things he said on the topic in the bible are bullshit. If the bible is true, you’re stuck with an extremely ugly situation and an appalling monster of a god. And if the bible is bullshit, you’ve got to ask yourself why did he write it ? Warped sense of humour ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  112. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    “The only way he can “sort it out” is if all the things he said on the topic in the bible are bullshit. ”

    I am sorry I wasn’t listening, what things did he say on the topic?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  113. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    “You introduced the idea of abstinence education when we were talking about preventing pregnancy in adult “smart women”, and now you take a rhetorical position that you were talking about kids and not adults. Make your mind up.”

    Sorry dude I just presumed that would happen at school, mybad.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  114. julia9 (2 comments) says:

    It’s quite interesting reading this discussion. It seems that most of the people who post here are men…?

    What I think everyone needs to acknowledge is that unplanned pregnancies happen. Whether this is due to rape or consensual sex, no matter which society we live in sex happens and, inevitably, a pregnancy may result. (As a side note, I am concerned that of the women who had abortions performed in 2008, 53.4 per cent were not using any form of contraception… Perhaps there needs to be a concerted effort to look into this?)

    It’s what we do about unplanned pregnancies that this discussion is really about… I think it is difficult to take a black and white view on the matter of abortion. For example, should a woman be forced to continue a pregnancy if it is a result of incest or rape? Or what about if a woman falls pregnant in an abusive relationship? Or, indeed, if the pregnant female is an underage girl?

    It seems that the many of the people are posting here seem to deny the woman their voice. What right do you have to demand that I carry a pregnancy to term? Oh, right, you’re looking after the unborn child. Ok, well do I have your permission to abort this growth in my womb if it’s a danger to a mental health? My physical health? Or what about if I discover that the foetus suffers from anencephaly (google it), will you be so cruel to demand that I live for four more months (after tests have indicated that the child will survive, at most, days) carrying this foetus inside me? Yeah, I understand that you might have certain views as to what constitutes “life”… But, I’m not asking YOU to have an abortion. If you’re against abortion, don’t have one. Why should YOUR view dictate my right to reproductive autonomy?

    If you can’t trust a woman with a choice, how can you trust a woman with a baby?

    It’s my fucking choice.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  115. Haiku Dave (273 comments) says:

    julia has a
    womb, so her word is worth more
    than most of you fucks

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  116. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    No Julia has a “growth” in her womb.
    And what about the little girl Julia could be aborting at some stage?
    The Murder of human beings is an issue that affects all people. Abortion is an uncivilised procedure to deal with a problem that no one wants to deal with.
    Perhaps if people like Julia took more responsibility for their lives BEFORE they take their knickers off things would improve some what.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  117. A.N. Onamus (22,839 comments) says:

    The patron saints of hypocrisy

    - thou shalt not abort, oh, it’s my daughter, I’ll kill that randy bastard once I get home from the war!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  118. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    So a woman can take responsibility for ending the life once it’s in there but is not expected to take responsibility for putting it there in the first place.
    Less than one percent of abortions are for rape or incest.
    If you are grown up enough to kill the baby you are grown up enough to understand how it got there, shut zee legs.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  119. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    The problem with many kiwi females is that they actually resent being women, they seem to be evolving into men in a sense.
    “I don’t wana carry this bloody thing around for 9 months” is a fairly “male” attitude.
    Funny how the feminist movement only results in turning girls into promiscuous females with a male mind, results in the death of kids, and causes mental illness in genuine females.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  120. getstaffed (9,189 comments) says:

    Hands up anyone who thinks rapes, incest or ther other commonly-trotted out justifications for abortion account for more than 1% of the abortions in NZ? Anybody? Yes these things happen, but in the context of establishing a justification for abortion they are statistically irrelevant.

    The ‘it’s my body’ line is also interesting. Our statutes are overflowing with laws that direct what I can and can’t do with my body, usually out of concern for the impact that of actions on me, and/or on others. I can’t use my body to drive at 120km/h because of the perceived danger to others. I can’t use my body to import narcotics because of the perceived danger to others. I can’t use my body to hug someone else’s child because that could be interpreted as abuse. And so on.

    We effectively have abortion on demand in NZ. But we all know ‘legal’ doesn’t mean ‘right’ (think slavery..). Humans know instinctively that it’s wrong to end another life, irrespective of liberal efforts to redefine the term ‘life’ to something more conscience-friendly.

    This study simply highlights the mental health consequence of overriding our moral instincts.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  121. A.N. Onamus (22,839 comments) says:

    Humans know instinctively that it’s wrong to end another life

    Sounds good in theory but hasn’t been the case in practice. Wars, executions, murders – humans have been responsible for hundreds of millions of lives ending at least.

    Even in today’s civilised society there are reasonable arguments for some abortions (whether they are “a life” or not is another debate), euthenasia and mercy killings, removing life support.

    So the instinct case is not very strong.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  122. A.N. Onamus (22,839 comments) says:

    Julia makes a good point – all you blokes are free to choose not to have abortions.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  123. getstaffed (9,189 comments) says:

    So the instinct case is not very strong

    My contention is that overriding our moral instincts gives rise to mental health consequence. I suspect, but have no concrete evidence, that people involved in wars, murders, executions all suffer from mental health consequences.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  124. A.N. Onamus (22,839 comments) says:

    The Moral Instinct
    Which of the following people would you say is the most admirable: Mother Teresa, Bill Gates or Norman Borlaug?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/magazine/13Psychology-t.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  125. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    Julia, and what about the baby’s choice?

    I’m sorry, you can throw up all the excuses you want (and you have done just that) to rationalize it, but it all comes down to the fact that the ‘solution’ is killing a child in what is supposed to be the safest place in the world – the mothers womb.

    When a couple have sex and the sperm and the egg meet you’ve set about a chain of events that culminates in a new life and you can choose to leave it be or to interfere and kill it; it doesn’t matter where along the time-line that killing happens.
    I find the term “abortion” to be kind of inaccurate in this sense. If NASA are going to ‘abort’ a mission they cancel the countdown and try another day, but once those rockets have fired baby, you’re on your way. It’s the same with sex – BANG, once you’ve lit the touchpaper you’re on your way. That’s where the woman’s choice happens – she can choose whether or not to have sex. If you 100% don’t want to have a baby then don’t have sex.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  126. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    Getstaffed, irrespective of the % of pregnancies which arise from rape/incest, would you permit abortion in those circumstances?

    Humans know instinctively that it’s wrong to end another life, irrespective of liberal efforts to redefine the term ‘life’ to something more conscience-friendly.

    Ultimately the best measure of what people think is OK, is their actions. By that measure a lot of people think that abortion is acceptable. Otherwise there wouldn’t be any abortions. You’re trying to put words in their mouths, but their actions say otherwise.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  127. A.N. Onamus (22,839 comments) says:

    If you 100% don’t want to have a baby then don’t have sex.

    Sounds good in theory, but there is another instinct – the sexual instinct.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  128. getstaffed (9,189 comments) says:

    malcolm, It’s not up to me to permit anything. As I’ve mentioned before, I don’t believe we can codify what amounts to moral decisions.

    On the point of acceptability, plenty of people have been convinced that something is acceptable, but does that make it right? More to the point, does that widely embraced acceptablity switch off our insticts to the extent that no mental health issues ensue? The study suggests otherwise.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  129. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    Fletch, do you have any objection to the so-called “day-after” pill, as this works before conception (which typically happens well after intercourse)?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  130. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    malcolm, It’s not up to me to permit anything. As I’ve mentioned before, I don’t believe we can codify what amounts to moral decisions.

    That’s an interesting viewpoint. So am I correct to take it that you’re an advocate of legal abortion, as that gives everyone (except the foetus, of course) a free moral choice?

    On the point of acceptability, plenty of people have been convinced that something is acceptable, but does that make it right?

    That would be that whole morality discussion again, which goes nowhere. My point was just that you’re trying to claim a position (“Humans know instinctively that it’s wrong to end another life”) yet the actions of many people (in the case of abortion) would suggest that they do not.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  131. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Put it away [November 4th, 2009 at 9:58 pm],

    It’s a crock of shit to claim as Kris does, and you seem to, that the bible says the souls of the unborn go to heaven.

    As outlined in my 8:28 pm comment:
    I believe the Bible shows that all those that die in the womb, and including children up to the age of accountability (say perhaps 5-6 years old) who die, go to be with God in heaven. The trouble begins when we get to an age where we are aware of our sinful nature – it is at this point where we require redemption for our sin.

    As outlined in my 8:44 pm comment:
    Specifically read about King David and his attitude towards the death of his son Absalom, and contrast that with his attitude toward his infant son (he had with Bathsheeba) who died. When you have mastered that you will better understand my 8:28 pm comment.

    The case for infants and the unborn who die going directly to be with God in heaven:

    As I mentioned above – King David had an interesting response when his young infant son (to Bathsheba) died. While the child yet lived he besought God that He might save the sick child’s life. Yet once the child died David’s response is very interesting:

    2Sa 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
    2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

    David knew that he would join his infant son in heaven when he in turn died and went to be with God. Just as David was saved by his faith in God, so too are New Testament Christians saved by faith in Christ [God]. In the NT Christians are described as ‘believers’ – and this is important. Salvation for the Christian is founded upon ‘belief’ in Christ; His death, burial, and resurrection; His deity. ‘Belief’ requires understanding and knowledge.

    We see this embodied in the practice of Christian baptism; or Believers baptism. To be water baptised one had to first believe and understand who Christ was; it was only after this that they were water baptised. Infants were never baptised (as believers) in the New Testament. Infant baptism is a non Biblical Roman Catholic contrivance.

    As I mentioned earlier – salvation is based upon belief/knowledge, and this requires a cartain degree of maturity. An infant of two or three years cannot understand, and therefore believe, the gospel message. They therefore cannot receive salvation based on belief. Just as David knew his dead infant son would be in heaven, NT Christians know that those younger than the age of understanding (or accountability) have special grace extended to them by their Creator. NT teaching is entirely consistent with OT writings in this respect.

    Therefore, as the Bible teaches that life begins at conception, and as infants who die go to be with God in heaven, we can know that those who die in the womb also go directly to be with God.

    This is the only upside to those infants who are murdered in the womb; they go directly to be with their Creator in heaven. So, in this regard, New Zealand sends over 18,000 infants to be with their Maker each year – perhaps a praiseworthy consolation given the alternative for most of them (birth, life, reject Christ, die, eternity in hell).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  132. getstaffed (9,189 comments) says:

    malcolm, were abortion illegal I would not want to see it legalised purely because legalisation of anything is seen as a moral/ethical endorsement of something. As we have legal abortion on demand and the decision to take up that ‘right’ is a moral one I do not believe it’s appropriate to make it illegal.

    re instincts – We have them. Taking the creationist angle, they’re God given. Taking the evolutionist angle they’ve evolved over eons. Instinctively knowing that it’s wrong to end a life doesn’t stop people doing just this. Despots crave power more than a clear conscience, so they make a calculated judgment to kill in pursuit of that power.

    We can and do override our instincts. My point remains that there are usually personal consequences when we do.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  133. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    So, in this regard, New Zealand sends over 18,000 infants to be with their Maker each year – perhaps a praiseworthy consolation given the alternative for most of them (birth, life, reject Christ, die, eternity in hell).

    Which raises an interesting theological question. If you weight a life on earth by 100 years, and an eternity in Hell by infinite years, the time on earth counts for infinitely little. So would it not be better for a foetus to be aborted and thus guaranteed an eternity with it’s Creator, than to be born and run the risk of rejecting Christ and thus spend an eternity in Hell?

    A kind of Pascal’s Wager on Abortion.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  134. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    malcolm 11:42 am,

    So, in this regard, New Zealand sends over 18,000 infants to be with their Maker each year – perhaps a praiseworthy consolation given the alternative for most of them (birth, life, reject Christ, die, eternity in hell).

    Which raises an interesting theological question. If you weight a life on earth by 100 years, and an eternity in Hell by infinite years, the time on earth counts for infinitely little. So would it not be better for a foetus to be aborted and thus guaranteed an eternity with it’s Creator, than to be born and run the risk of rejecting Christ and thus spend an eternity in Hell?

    Probably in an essentially Godless society like NZ this could be argued as a preferable outcome for a child who dies in the womb. Of course, from a Christian perspective, to take a life is a right that God alone has. [NB I believe there is a difference between murdering and killing someone (eg fighting in a just war).]

    Also, from a Biblical perspective, once someone reaches the age of understanding (accountability) the choice they make, in their life on earth, regarding Christ has eternal “weight” in regards to their eternal state after death.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  135. Pete George (22,839 comments) says:

    If God alone can decide who should live or die are doctors and medicines anti-Christian?

    Is God in control and allowing abortions to take place?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  136. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    getstaffed [November 5th, 2009 at 10:47 am],

    My contention is that overriding our moral instincts gives rise to mental health consequence. I suspect, but have no concrete evidence, that people involved in wars, murders, executions all suffer from mental health consequences.

    I agree with your contention, GS.
    This would be a very interesting study: “overriding our moral instincts” versus “mental health consequences”.

    Perhaps this is the primary reason that we observe increasing ‘Mental Illness’ in a modern society where we have thrown off, and redefined, our morality. As moral relativism increases, and absolute morals increasingly become a quaint belief system of the past, we observe a direct correlation with increasing mental illness. And perhaps this further points to the fact that society is increasingly divorced from the God given values as espoused in the Bible. I can’t see a governmental study on that happening any time soon, but this would be my contention.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  137. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 12:11 pm ,

    Come on Pete, you’re better than that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  138. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    “By that measure a lot of people think that abortion is acceptable. Otherwise there wouldn’t be any abortions. You’re trying to put words in their mouths, but their actions say otherwise.”

    What bull crap. People trust health professionals, perhaps naively, but they do trust them only to find later that they have been mislead.
    The school councillor whipping kids of for an abortion without the consent of the parents is a prime example. Not even the chance to talk to their own daughter before a major traumatic event.
    You seem to ignore the topic of the thread, abortion is screwing with these peoples lives, it seems that mashing humans is not good for the soul.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  139. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    “Is God in control and allowing abortions to take place?”

    No, but selfish people that refuse to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions has something to do with it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  140. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    The school councillor whipping kids of for an abortion without the consent of the parents is a prime example.

    Reference Shunda, or are you pulling things out of your arse?.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  141. Pete George (22,839 comments) says:

    Humans know instinctively that it’s wrong to end another life

    Something else that contradicts this is self defence. Sometimes principals csn overrule survival, is in the case of the Morioris, but I suspect that in most cases the natural instinct is to kill if it means protecting yourself, your family or your community.

    Shunda, a lot of things screw with people’s lives and with their heads (post natal depression for one).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  142. getstaffed (9,189 comments) says:

    cha – The law does not require school girls to have, or school counselors to seek, parental consent for an abortion, but those same parents must write a note if she’s late for school.

    The former is an action of medical and emotional significance and, on topic, one with the potential for negative mental health consequences.

    The latter is about sleeping in, or missing a bus.

    Anyone else find this incongruous?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  143. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    What I find appalling is that the people that advocate ripping unborn humans limb from limb are the same people that are outraged by someone holding a bloody rodeo.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  144. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Shunda barunda 1:29 pm,

    … or barbequing their pet dog.
    … or eating meat full stop (come in Phool).
    … or carrying drug tests out on animals.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  145. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Shunnda cant provide any reference to substantiate his claim that school employees are arranging abortions.

    So he’s making shit up.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  146. Pete George (22,839 comments) says:

    getstaffed at 1:12 pm: I have concerns about this too, but it may not always be simple. What if a girl tells the counselor she will be beaten if her parent’s find out she is pregnant? Or if her boyfriend finds out?

    A man used a large piece of wood and an axe handle to viciously beat his pregnant partner “to within an inch of her life”.
    She lost her baby while in Rotorua Hospital’s intensive care unit fighting for her life.

    http://www.rotoruadailypost.co.nz/local/news/pregnant-woman-brutally-beaten/3905184/

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  147. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    … or barbequing their pet dog.
    … or eating meat full stop (come in Phool).
    … or carrying drug tests out on animals.

    I believe I covered those above.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  148. Pete George (22,839 comments) says:

    This has some interesting facts.

    Partner violence has huge impact on women’s reproductive health

    * Almost 10% of ever-pregnant women had experienced violence during pregnancy

    * Violence during pregnancy was associated with both women and their partners being less likely to want the pregnancy

    * Almost one in three women reported having at least one miscarriage

    * At least one in 10 women had terminated a pregnancy.

    * Asian women (30%) were 3.5 times more likely to have an abortion compared with Pakeha women (12%).

    * Women’s experience of intimate partner violence was associated with both increased risk of miscarriage (1.4 times more likely), and increased likelihood of abortion (2.5 times more likely).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  149. Pete George (22,839 comments) says:

    http://www.uniservices.co.nz/pageloader.aspx?page=1463d3d0d76

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  150. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull 2:04 pm,

    I believe I covered those above.

    Ah yes, your ‘Miss World’ victory speech, Ryan.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  151. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 2:01 & 2:09 pm,

    An intriguing rational, Pete – Justification for violence to the unborn child to prevent violence to the mother.

    I would still argue that the resultant mental illness the mother may suffer for aborting her child would greatly outweigh that which she may suffer, if any, as a result of her father/boyfriend/spouse giving her a beating.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  152. getstaffed (9,189 comments) says:

    getstaffed at 1:12 pm: I have concerns about this too, but it may not always be simple. What if a girl tells the counselor she will be beaten if her parent’s find out she is pregnant? Or if her boyfriend finds out?

    On cue the defence “yes, but what about this or that situation” c.f. the 35yr old pregnant woman being beaten (I’m assuming she wasn’t a high-school student so not sure of the contextual relevance here…)

    Once again the socialist approach is to deny all parents their responsibility of parental care on the basis that some may abuse that responsibility. Why not just make all kids wards of state at birth?

    No, it is very simple: Get the state’s meddling socialist hands off my kids.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  153. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Ah yes, your ‘Miss World’ victory speech, Ryan.

    Hey, I don’t ‘Miss World’ your injection of religion into the discussion.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  154. Pete George (22,839 comments) says:

    Kris, in that example she lost the baby anyway. That was in court last month.

    Did you read the article?
    “He beat her to within an inch of her life”
    “clumps of the woman’s black hair and blood were found “splattered” throughout the house”

    Suffered?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  155. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull 2:48 pm,

    Hey, I don’t ‘Miss World’ your injection of religion into the discussion.

    So you mean to say, Ryan, that your 5:25 pm comment of yesterday was serious ?

    Every life is a Buddha-to-be. End abortion, capital punishment, war, starvation and the slaughter of animals for luxury food.

    … really?

    In that case I stand seriously corrected.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  156. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 2:49 pm,

    Kris, in that example she lost the baby anyway. That was in court last month.

    Did you read the article?
    “He beat her to within an inch of her life”
    “clumps of the woman’s black hair and blood were found “splattered” throughout the house”

    Suffered?

    Well, he should be done for all crimes against the woman, AND for manslaughter of the baby.

    In my book, Pete, nothing justifies the murder of an unborn child – inluding incest, rape, or anything else you may care to dream up. Sorry, but that’s my view.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  157. Ryan Sproull (7,030 comments) says:

    Kris,

    They’re all examples of mankind’s attitude towards the sanctity of life. An unattainable ideal is still an ideal.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  158. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    As we have legal abortion on demand and the decision to take up that ‘right’ is a moral one I do not believe it’s appropriate to make it illegal.

    Sorry, slow reply. That’s a very principled stand GS. I commend you.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  159. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    What I find appalling is that the people that advocate ripping unborn humans limb from limb are the same people that are outraged by someone holding a bloody rodeo.

    You’re appalled by made-up and extreme generalisations?

    I have nothing against rodeos.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  160. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    The law does not require school girls to have, or school counselors to seek, parental consent for an abortion, but those same parents must write a note if she’s late for school.

    Anyone else find this incongruous?

    No. It’s just an emotively selected juxtaposition of two completely separate issues. Each is designed to serve it’s own purpose. Equating them serves no purpose, but to confuse.

    1] Is it sensible that schools require absent students to provide a note? Yes.
    2] Is it considered best that the choice to have an abortion should rest alone with the girl/female/woman? On consideration of all the issues, that is what has been decided. I’m sure that part of the law was not considered lightly.

    It would be ludicrous to decide 2], based on 1]. Which is what your comparison tries to suggest.

    If the law says a female over a certain age can have an abortion without her parents consents, then it doesn’t matter whether she confides in her priest, her school councillor, her doctor, or her friend. If she doesn’t want her parents to know, she’ll only confide in someone she trusts. She’ll only confide in someone who will help, on her terms.

    If the law said school councillors must betray the trust of students, then pregnant girls simply wouldn’t go to them. Or were you suggesting that the counsellor would force or coerce the girl into having an abortion?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  161. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    All this is just further proof that many liberal people simply have a cold hard adherence to ideology even when a logical position would still be to minimise such a destructive procedure as much as possible.
    There is nothing noble about killing unborn children, the experience is not pleasant for the woman and is clearly damaging emotionally to a great many of them.
    Abortion at best should be considered a stop gap measure until we can deal with the real issues, but pro choice people seem quite happy to establish it as basically another form of birth control regardless of the consequences.
    But the real issue is promiscuity being promoted as fun and safe so long as you take precautions, clearly it isn’t safe, the epidemic STD rate in NZ and our growing abortion rate testify to this.
    But we are still telling kids to go f@%k your brains out, it’s all good fun after all.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  162. getstaffed (9,189 comments) says:

    malcolm, the issue comes down to the moral imperative that exists for parents to raise their children free of state intervention and/or forced ideologies. As a parent it is my world view, my set of values and my standards that are to be imparted to my daughter until she becomes an adult and is free to make independent, adult decisions.

    Or would you rather that I adopted your world view with respect to my parenting? Despite being a nice chap [as best I can tell!], as a parent that prospect fills me with dread, in that same as it would you, if the state directed that your children be raised as an EB. (um, which I am not for the record!)

    If the law directs that parents have no say in the matter of their young daughter’s pregnancy, then why stop there? Let’s have the state decide what they should be fed, who they should be permitted to associate with, what they should read/view etc. Let’s completely isolate parents from the charter of parenthood, save for the generation of supporting income… and ‘late for school’ notes.

    So I say change the law so that parents must be endorse their young daughter’s decision to have an abortion, and put in place systems so that this can be overridden through recourse to the courts. This creates a mandate for parents to be involved, which is right and proper IMO.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  163. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    Well if you’re going to give thoughtful and reasonable responses like that, I can see this conversation going nowhere.

    Would you permit the state to mandate an age at which your children are considered adults and no longer under your control?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  164. getstaffed (9,189 comments) says:

    Would you permit the state to mandate an age at which your children are considered adults and no longer under your control?

    A fair question. It’s not so much control, as it is a right to be involved. Most parents understand that they start relinquishing direct control of their children’s’ lives from very early on. Parenting is about helping your kids learn about the world, how it works, to impart the value system that you’ve found to work guiding your own life.

    It’s also a time when cause-effect and action-consequence learnings on initially in trivial life situations are experienced so that children, with their parents help and protection, can become equipped to cope with the inevitable ‘big life’ issues that we all face as adults.

    Back to the question, whatever the age it is important that parents are equipped, while being both supported and accountable under law for the welfare of their children until that time. IMO we have far too many parents who fail to accept these responsibilities, and far too many successive governments that have accepted, or worse accelerated, that decay of family structure for ideological purposes. So a complex issue, and one that worth further debate.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  165. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    Yes, I think this thread as done it’s dash. Interesting discussion though.

    I see your 6.49 post as an unrealistic ideal. If parents had sole authority and responsibility over their children, there would be no legal framework available to deal with parents who harm/abuse/neglect their children. As it was when wives and children were chattels of the husband.

    What you see as the state imposing their ideology on your family, can also be seen as the state up-holding the individuals’ rights.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  166. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    ..individuals['] rights. What’s going on with a ajax edit thingy.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  167. WellChick (1 comment) says:

    This is the first bit of research that even acknowledges there is a downside to abortion. About time.

    Those of us who have been there know that it takes years and years (and usually a whole pile of ‘learning experiences’) before we can even begin to think about that decision and what it has meant.

    The problem is, you make a decision in crisis and never go back to it… until next time.

    Abortion gives you a ‘get out of jail free’ card. Except, it isn’t free and mentally and emotionally, it takes you into, rather than out of, jail.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  168. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    WellChick 1:25 pm,

    Well said, and welcome.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  169. kiwichristian (15 comments) says:

    One person suggested we keep biblical standpoints out of this.

    But i will say that depression following the murder of a living entity is a just ( and indeed mild ) punishment from The Lord.

    If you don’t want to get pregnant, dont have sex. Simple.

    I am a virgin and am celibate and happy with that dispute being over 40 years of age.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  170. kiwichristian (15 comments) says:

    PLEASE, i encourage EVERYONE reading this blog to watch this 12 year old girl speaking on abortion.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.