http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOR1wUqvJS4

But i will say that depression following the murder of a living entity is a just ( and indeed mild ) punishment from The Lord.

If you don’t want to get pregnant, dont have sex. Simple.

I am a virgin and am celibate and happy with that dispute being over 40 years of age.

Well said, and welcome.

Those of us who have been there know that it takes years and years (and usually a whole pile of ‘learning experiences’) before we can even begin to think about that decision and what it has meant.

The problem is, you make a decision in crisis and never go back to it… until next time.

Abortion gives you a ‘get out of jail free’ card. Except, it isn’t free and mentally and emotionally, it takes you into, rather than out of, jail.

I see your 6.49 post as an unrealistic ideal. If parents had sole authority and responsibility over their children, there would be no legal framework available to deal with parents who harm/abuse/neglect their children. As it was when wives and children were chattels of the husband.

What you see as the state imposing their ideology on your family, can also be seen as the state up-holding the individuals’ rights.

Would you permit the state to mandate an age at which your children are considered adults and no longer under your control?

A fair question. It’s not so much control, as it is a right to be involved. Most parents understand that they start relinquishing direct control of their children’s’ lives from very early on. Parenting is about helping your kids learn about the world, how it works, to impart the value system that you’ve found to work guiding your own life.

It’s also a time when cause-effect and action-consequence learnings on initially in trivial life situations are experienced so that children, with their parents help and protection, can become equipped to cope with the inevitable ‘big life’ issues that we all face as adults.

Back to the question, whatever the age it is important that parents are equipped, while being both supported and accountable under law for the welfare of their children until that time. IMO we have far too many parents who fail to accept these responsibilities, and far too many successive governments that have accepted, or worse accelerated, that decay of family structure for ideological purposes. So a complex issue, and one that worth further debate.

Would you permit the state to mandate an age at which your children are considered adults and no longer under your control?

Or would you rather that I adopted your world view with respect to my parenting? Despite being a nice chap [as best I can tell!], as a parent that prospect fills me with dread, in that same as it would you, if the state directed that your children be raised as an EB. (um, which I am not for the record!)

If the law directs that parents have no say in the matter of their young daughter’s pregnancy, then why stop there? Let’s have the state decide what they should be fed, who they should be permitted to associate with, what they should read/view etc. Let’s completely isolate parents from the charter of parenthood, save for the generation of supporting income… and ‘late for school’ notes.

So I say change the law so that parents must be endorse their young daughter’s decision to have an abortion, and put in place systems so that this can be overridden through recourse to the courts. This creates a mandate for parents to be involved, which is right and proper IMO.

The law does not require school girls to have, or school counselors to seek, parental consent for an abortion, but those same parents must write a note if she’s late for school.
…
Anyone else find this incongruous?

No. It’s just an emotively selected juxtaposition of two completely separate issues. Each is designed to serve it’s own purpose. Equating them serves no purpose, but to confuse.

1] Is it sensible that schools require absent students to provide a note? Yes.
2] Is it considered best that the choice to have an abortion should rest alone with the girl/female/woman? On consideration of all the issues, that is what has been decided. I’m sure that part of the law was not considered lightly.

It would be ludicrous to decide 2], based on 1]. Which is what your comparison tries to suggest.

If the law says a female over a certain age can have an abortion without her parents consents, then it doesn’t matter whether she confides in her priest, her school councillor, her doctor, or her friend. If she doesn’t want her parents to know, she’ll only confide in someone she trusts. She’ll only confide in someone who will help, on her terms.

If the law said school councillors must betray the trust of students, then pregnant girls simply wouldn’t go to them. Or were you suggesting that the counsellor would force or coerce the girl into having an abortion?

What I find appalling is that the people that advocate ripping unborn humans limb from limb are the same people that are outraged by someone holding a bloody rodeo.

You’re appalled by made-up and extreme generalisations?

I have nothing against rodeos.

As we have legal abortion on demand and the decision to take up that ‘right’ is a moral one I do not believe it’s appropriate to make it illegal.

Sorry, slow reply. That’s a very principled stand GS. I commend you.

They’re all examples of mankind’s attitude towards the sanctity of life. An unattainable ideal is still an ideal.

Kris, in that example she lost the baby anyway. That was in court last month.

Did you read the article?
“He beat her to within an inch of her life”
“clumps of the woman’s black hair and blood were found “splattered” throughout the house”

Suffered?

Well, he should be done for all crimes against the woman, AND for manslaughter of the baby.

In my book, Pete, nothing justifies the murder of an unborn child – inluding incest, rape, or anything else you may care to dream up. Sorry, but that’s my view.

Hey, I don’t ‘Miss World’ your injection of religion into the discussion.

So you mean to say, Ryan, that your 5:25 pm comment of yesterday was serious ?

Every life is a Buddha-to-be. End abortion, capital punishment, war, starvation and the slaughter of animals for luxury food.

… really?

In that case I stand seriously corrected.

Did you read the article?
“He beat her to within an inch of her life”
“clumps of the woman’s black hair and blood were found “splattered” throughout the house”

Suffered?

Ah yes, your ‘Miss World’ victory speech, Ryan.

Hey, I don’t ‘Miss World’ your injection of religion into the discussion.

getstaffed at 1:12 pm: I have concerns about this too, but it may not always be simple. What if a girl tells the counselor she will be beaten if her parent’s find out she is pregnant? Or if her boyfriend finds out?

On cue the defence “yes, but what about this or that situation” c.f. the 35yr old pregnant woman being beaten (I’m assuming she wasn’t a high-school student so not sure of the contextual relevance here…)

Once again the socialist approach is to deny all parents their responsibility of parental care on the basis that some may abuse that responsibility. Why not just make all kids wards of state at birth?

No, it is very simple: Get the state’s meddling socialist hands off my kids.

An intriguing rational, Pete – Justification for violence to the unborn child to prevent violence to the mother.

I would still argue that the resultant mental illness the mother may suffer for aborting her child would greatly outweigh that which she may suffer, if any, as a result of her father/boyfriend/spouse giving her a beating.