I think the information I cited earlier regarding women who have had abortions and the relationship to their mental health is indicative of the relationship between immorality and mental health in general within society.
Things like drug taking and excessive alcohol consumption no doubt contribute to the mental health of individuals that partake of them. But once again this would reflect upon the general permissive attitude towards these things within society which in and of themselves are moral choices. According to the Bible drug taking opens the individual up to the spiritual realm. This creates a spiritual pathway through which demonic entities can play havoc with the mind often resulting in mental health problems for the individual concerned. This is why drug taking, or sorcery, is condemned in Bible.

The fact that New Zealand leads the world in youth suicide statistics would also be indicative of the increasing mental health problems of young people in our society. Without a moral framework children are cast adrift in a sea of moral relativism and are increasingly encouraged to make bad moral choices. In fact often they do not know the difference between right and wrong.

Fletch’s two posts above highlight many of the mental health issues that women involved in prostitution suffer from:

Further, according to Dr. Farley, “Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)… characterized by anxiety, depression, insomnia, irritability, flashbacks, emotional numbing, and hyper-alertedness commonly occurs among prostituted women and is indicative of their extreme emotional distress. In nine countries, we found that 68% of those in prostitution met criteria for a diagnosis of PTSD…Across widely varying cultures, the traumatic consequences of prostitution were similar.”

Regarding my faith; it is not a matter of wishful thinking on my part to justify my beliefs, but purely observing the evidence that confronts me. No one would doubt in our modern society that we observe increasing mental health problems compared to that of a generation ago. The question is why are these figures increasing? It is my belief that there’s a direct causative link between immoral behaviour and the mental health of those involved in such activities.

It’s not really a matter of getting into positive feedback loops or having an increasingly pessimistic view of society, but rather letting the facts speak for themselves.
You put down many of the problems within our society to being in a result of welfare dependency and our softness on crime. But aren’t these just society’s attempt to treat the symptoms, rather than address the root causes of the degradation of our society. One must ask the question as to why we have increasing welfare dependency along with increasing crime.

Single women are increasingly encouraged by the state to have and raise children Independent of a husband or partner. And do we not see these children who come from welfare dependents homes over represented in statistics in the areas of antisocial behavior, lack of self respects, and lack of respect for others. In later life many of these children become involved and criminal activity, violence, excessive drug and alcohol abuse and suicide. Would we not attribute much of this to the mental health of the individual concerned?

You seem to attribute mental health to stress, drug use, bad luck, family propensity, etc. Why do you distinguish between morals around sex from morality in general? Isn’t much of what we see in society today the result of the changing values and acceptance of lifestyles which would have been frowned upon generation ago? It is my belief that the main victim to these changing values has been family and especially those that do not have the benefit of being raised within a stable family unit. We only need to look it’s the makeup of those that fill our nation’s prisons to see this born out.

And when I mentioned ‘costs’ I was in fact referring to the mental health aspects and not to the subsequent Biblical judgment.

Of course I contend that morals come from God, and that we are given these values for our ultimate protection. One of God’s main concerns is for the family unit and its members. Sex before marriage, outside marriage, or with prostitutes, only leads to the breakdown of the family unit and results in increasing divorce statistics, screwed up kids, and broken men and women. This I believe is one of many major contributing factors towards mental illness in the men, women and children of our society.

Another group we could consider would be homosexuals. Many who choose this lifestyle have a much higher instance of mental health problems when compared to individuals who make up the general populace.

So in summary I believe there’s a reasonable case to link an immoral lifestyle with mental health problems.

And it would be my view that the primary driving force behind our societal increase in mental health issues is EXACTLY paralleled by the increasing immorality within our society.

It would be hard to make that case, given that a lot of mental health problems are strongly attributed to other things (e.g. drug use on top of genetic propensity, runs-in-the-family (a biggie) etc). So even if immorality was causing some mental health problems, it would take a backseat to these known causes. Yet I’m sure you’d agree there is now almost universal immorality (e.g. pre-marital sex), so wouldn’t we see significantly more mental health problems?

I don’t see it. Almost everyone I know in my generation would be considered immoral by your standards (pre-marital sex at least), yet I don’t know anyone with mental health problems more serious than depression (in the one case I know of it’s a runs-in-the-family thing and is treated with lithium). I’m sure there are others but they’re treated to the point that I’m not aware of it. And there was plenty of this in the past – just not diagnosed or treated.

There seems to be an element of wishful thinking on your part. I don’t mean that you wish people problems, but that you feel vindicated in your faith because you can draw a tenuous relationship between mental health problems (something concrete) and our descent into a moral-less sink-hole (something subjective, but which your religion predicts and needs). Social issues are complex and society is changing fast so there are lots of correlations. If you’re so inclined you can see causations which fit your views and ideas. But you’re in danger of getting into a positive feedback loop where you have an increasingly pessimistic view of society and retreat further and further into the apparently clarity and salvation of your religion.

If you’re prepared to take a pass on real evidence then you can find false evidence for almost anything. I know NZ has many problems, most of which I would put down to the blight of welfare dependency and softness on crime. I don’t think they’re caused by harmless immoral behaviour between consenting adults.

Anyway, back to prostitution.

So while you may think Brooke Magnanti is very clever at writing, and perhaps her choice to prostitute herself was just a good business decision, I really do believe that the downstream ‘costs’ to her will far exceed any benefits to date.

Even if working as a prostitute increased your chances of having mental health problems, I wouldn’t think that was a reason to consider it a bad thing. Plenty of jobs and situations cause mental problems (unemployment, stressful employment, bad marriages, drug use, bad luck, family propensity etc). It’s part of life. And plenty of jobs take a toll on people. But ultimately people should make their own judgements on risk and reward without artificial moral judgements. I consider morals around sex to be predominately religious in nature, outdated and baseless. I’m not talking about having kids and not looking after them or cheating on your partner, but just plain old sex between consenting adults when no one else is harmed. For that reason I can’t see any fundamental problem with legalised prostitution.

When you say ‘costs’ I assume you’re referring to your ever-present threat of going to hell? If we put hell and mental health issues aside as unproven, do you have any other objections to Brooke Magnanti having sex in exchange for money?

What really happened in New Zealand after prostitution was
decriminalized in 2003?

1. Violence in prostitution continued after prostitution was
decriminalized in New Zealand, according to the New Zealand Law
Review Committee. The Report is available at
http://www.justice.govt.nz/prostitution-law-review-committee/publications/plrcreport/
index.html
2. Stigma and prejudice against prostitution, and the shame associated
with prostitution, continued since decriminalization of prostitution in
NZ.
3. Street prostitution in New Zealand’s cities increased dramatically
after prostitution was decriminalized in 2003.
4. There is inadequate protection for children against prostitution in
New Zealand since decriminalization.
5. The US State Department has noted trafficking of women and children
since prostitution was decriminalized in New Zealand

You can read more in the PDF HERE

Dr. Melissa Farley, a feminist researcher and clinical psychologist, has written extensively on this topic since 1993. As the current director of Prostitution Research and Education, a non-profit organization in San Francisco, she has researched prostitution and sex trafficking in nine countries. She writes that “U.S. prostitution can be understood in the context of the cultural normalization of prostitution as a glamorous and wealth-producing ‘job’ [as was seen in the media uproar of Spitzer] for girls who lack emotional support, education, and employment opportunities… The sexual exploitation of children and women in prostitution is often indistinguishable from incest, intimate partner violence, and rape…” And, she argues, “sexist and racist economic policies in the United States such as the lack of educational opportunities for poor families and a lack of sustainable income from many jobs contribute to women and girl’s entry into prostitution.

Further, according to Dr. Farley, “Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)… characterized by anxiety, depression, insomnia, irritability, flashbacks, emotional numbing, and hyper-alertedness commonly occurs among prostituted women and is indicative of their extreme emotional distress. In nine countries, we found that 68% of those in prostitution met criteria for a diagnosis of PTSD…Across widely varying cultures, the traumatic consequences of prostitution were similar.”

From Dr Farley’s fact sheet

* 78% of 55 women who sought help in 1991 from the Council for Prostitution Alternatives in Portland, Oregon reported being raped an average of 16 times a year by pimps, and were raped 33 times a year by johns.
* 73% reported having experienced physical assault in prostitution.
* 72% were currently or formerly homeless.
* 92% stated that they wanted to escape prostitution immediately.
* 75% of women in escort prostitution had attempted suicide.
* 67% meet diagnostic criteria for posttraumatic stress disorder.
* Estimates of the prevalence of incest among prostitutes range from 65% to 90%. The Council for Prostitution Alternatives found that 85% of their prostitute clients reported a history of sexual abuse in childhood, while 70% reported incest.

This information makes it clear that the victims of prostitutions are the women themselves. At an individual level, the harm of prostitution is physical, social, emotional, and psychological. This harm extends to all women and humanity as a whole — socially, culturally, and globally. When a human being is reduced to a body, objectified to sexually service another, whether or not there is so-called “consent,” violation of hte human being has taken place. As well as breaching an individual’s human rights, the prostitution system and the trade and commodification of human beings is a violation of the rights and dignity of humankind as a whole.

You can find more info on Dr Farley’s Prostitution Research & Education site.

yeah but with today’s “empowered” young women they could probably get the real kinky stuff for 2 vodkas

Remember SSaSttL, that Belle’s clients are not going to be paying her for the mediocre activities they could get from their wives. Those guys are paying for the really kinky action that most uptight trophy wives wouldn’t touch with a barge pole…

Perhaps they’re just paying for an hour or two with someone who is always pleased to see them and won’t demand anything in return?

It’s easy to imagine that if you marry for looks (trophy wife), your home life might not be the calming sanctuary you might desire..

Yeah, I thought of ‘Alie’ (the woman from Superfreakonomics) as I was reading that too.

Sadly, I get the feeling they are unrepresentative of the ‘real’ face of prostitution – the creme of the crop, as it were.

Well, SF talks about street prostitutes as well.

Levitt and Dubner were criticised that they made prostitution look empowering,

I don’t have my copy handy, but as I recall, they said that 80% of street prostitutes were drug addicts. The wages they commanded were low, they gave freebies to cops to stay out of jail, they used condoms in fewer than half their jobs, and they faced a constant risk of violence from clients. That’s surely not empowering.

Remember SSaSttL, that Belle’s clients are not going to be paying her for the mediocre activities they could get from their wives. Those guys are paying for the really kinky action that most uptight trophy wives wouldn’t touch with a barge pole…

Kris. Thanks for the offer to pick that last conversation up again. As I dropped the ball I’ll try with this one. I know you like a good debate and it’ll probably end up in the same place

Your argument is somewhat self-referencing. You’re saying that prostitution is a bad choice because people will think poorly of you. But why should we think poorly of such people? (I know many people do).

I personally don’t think poorly of Brooke Magnanti. In fact I think she’s very clever, and as a reader of her blog I wish I could write half as well as her.

I guess I do come from the premise that prostitution is at best a ‘bad choice’, and at worst is a ‘sin’ and is self destructive – both to the woman and the recipient of her wares.
No doubt many here will agree with Luc that “sin is pretty well passe these days”. But is it really? We like to think it is, but those who are actively involved in immoral (sinful) behaviour often have many emotional/mental issues as a consequence.
You may remember a recent topic on Kiwiblog where we were considering the mental health issues surrounding women who had had an abortion(s). Women who had aborted their unborn child had significantly higher mental health issues compared to women who had not.
I floated the idea that perhaps there is a direct correlation between immoral behaviour and mental health issues. And it would be my view that the primary driving force behind our societal increase in mental health issues is EXACTLY paralleled by the increasing immorality within our society.

So while you may think Brooke Magnanti is very clever at writing, and perhaps her choice to prostitute herself was just a good business decision, I really do believe that the downstream ‘costs’ to her will far exceed any benefits to date.

In my opinion, even ‘high class’ prostitutes would likely have much a higher degree of mental health issues than women who commit themselves to one man within the bounds of marriage. Many women (and men for that matter) today who are promiscuous are little different to women on the game – giving away or selling yourself for sex must and does stuff with your mind. Our refusal to acknowledge sin does not eliminate the consequence of that sin – worsening mental health issues would be a good barometer to show this.

It might have seemed OK to Brooke, but most women employed this way are kept there by pimps and being hooked on drugs and can’t get out even if they wanted to.

That’s certainly a characteristic of illegal prostitution. Do you think legalisation helps to prevent this? That was one of the stated aims.

It’s nothing more than the use and abuse of women – using them for sex them tossing them away like a used condom.

It might have seemed OK to Brooke, but most women employed this way are kept there by pimps and being hooked on drugs and can’t get out even if they wanted to.

As far as outing herself, well, the concept of sin is pretty well passe these days and there can be a certain glamour attached to those with, shall we say, stories from the twilight world.

Maybe she will run for office one day and bring a bit of realism to some debates.

Perhaps it is pertinent to mention here to those university students (girls) who think prostituting themselves out as a means of subsidising their studies is the easy option, and will have no downstream effects, that ten years down the track when they’re in a well paying job and have developed respect and credibility, that perhaps having their past life as a prostitute come out may not be the best outcome for their career, let alone family, children, friends, etc.

Kris. Thanks for the offer to pick that last conversation up again. As I dropped the ball I’ll try with this one. I know you like a good debate and it’ll probably end up in the same place

Your argument is somewhat self-referencing. You’re saying that prostitution is a bad choice because people will think poorly of you. But why should we think poorly of such people? (I know many people do).

I personally don’t think poorly of Brooke Magnanti. In fact I think she’s very clever, and as a reader of her blog I wish I could write half as well as her.

… your sins will find you out.

While we might like to think our private lives are just that – private, when someone sets up a blog bearing their soul, selling books, etc about their life as a call-girl I consider them to be no more than a victim of their own making.

And not a lot different to Hollywood stars who like the money and the fame, but then complain they’re being hounded by the tabloids and that their lives are no longer their own.

Excuse the pun, but if one makes their own bed then one must also be prepared to lie in it.

Perhaps it is pertinent to mention here to those university students (girls) who think prostituting themselves out as a means of subsidising their studies is the easy option, and will have no downstream effects, that ten years down the track when they’re in a well paying job and have developed respect and credibility, that perhaps having their past life as a prostitute come out may not be the best outcome for their career, let alone family, children, friends, etc.

Scenario:
Child: “Mummy, how did you pay your way through university?
Mother: “Darling, Mummy entertained men for several hundred dollars an hour – much better than flipping burgers at Mac Donalds.”
Child: So Mummy, you would recommend that I take this same course of action when I attend university?
Mother: Of course, darling, what self respecting women wants to work at Mac Donalds.

Yeah, I thought of ‘Alie’ (the woman from Superfreakonomics) as I was reading that too.

Sadly, I get the feeling they are unrepresentative of the ‘real’ face of prostitution – the creme of the crop, as it were.