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	<title>Comments on: ETS and Climate Change</title>
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	<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html</link>
	<description>DPF&#039;s Kiwiblog - Fomenting Happy Mischief since 2003</description>
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		<item>
		<title>By: itiswhatitis</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-636868</link>
		<dc:creator>itiswhatitis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 01:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-636868</guid>
		<description>Uh, oh – raw data in New Zealand tells a different story than the “official” one

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/25/uh-oh-raw-data-in-new-zealand-tells-a-different-story-than-the-official-one/

We have discovered that the warming in New Zealand over the past 156 years was indeed man-made, but it had nothing to do with emissions of CO2—it was created by man-made adjustments of the temperature. It’s a disgrace.

About half the adjustments actually created a warming trend where none existed; the other half greatly exaggerated existing warming. All the adjustments increased or even created a warming trend, with only one (Dunedin) going the other way and slightly reducing the original trend.

The shocking truth is that the oldest readings have been cranked way down and later readings artificially lifted to give a false impression of warming,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh, oh – raw data in New Zealand tells a different story than the “official” one</p>
<p><a href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/25/uh-oh-raw-data-in-new-zealand-tells-a-different-story-than-the-official-one/" rel="nofollow">http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/25/uh-oh-raw-data-in-new-zealand-tells-a-different-story-than-the-official-one/</a></p>
<p>We have discovered that the warming in New Zealand over the past 156 years was indeed man-made, but it had nothing to do with emissions of CO2—it was created by man-made adjustments of the temperature. It’s a disgrace.</p>
<p>About half the adjustments actually created a warming trend where none existed; the other half greatly exaggerated existing warming. All the adjustments increased or even created a warming trend, with only one (Dunedin) going the other way and slightly reducing the original trend.</p>
<p>The shocking truth is that the oldest readings have been cranked way down and later readings artificially lifted to give a false impression of warming,</p>
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		<title>By: John Ansell</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-636180</link>
		<dc:creator>John Ansell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-636180</guid>
		<description>This from Richard Treadgold, one of the guys who put out the above expose on NIWA. This time he&#039;s talking about the 100 icebergs said to be heading our way:

&#039;I think it’s exciting that we might see giant icebergs again, because it’s dramatic. However, the assumption that their close approach is connected with warming is odd, since the appearance of ice in my gin and tonic indicates just the opposite—a cooling trend. As you sail to Antarctica, the appearance of icebergs in the sea certainly confirms a cooling trend. A reasonable person, on hearing that icebergs appear because of warming, surely considers enquiring whether it’s actually because of cooling.

&#039;Dr Young’s easy attribution of the calving of these icebergs to “global warming” is unlikeable and unconvincing. More likely is that, as usual, the ice shelf reaches such a length (through continual plentiful production of ice, please note!) that the ocean waves can move it about with sufficient force to snap it off. If warming was causing melting, what would survive to embark on a voyage to anywhere?

&#039;It is equally likely that, because of cooling seas, the icebergs now survive the long voyage to New Zealand!

&#039;I know of no evidence supporting a global rise in temperature recently. Certainly, no more than perhaps 0.2°C, something like that, in the few months which might have influenced the calving. In the Antarctic, such a rise might get you up to around minus eleventy five which is dreadfully chilly and won’t melt anything. There’s nothing abnormal going on here. Might we not reasonably expect the Herald to know this and to question the AFP story?

&#039;They have let us down.&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This from Richard Treadgold, one of the guys who put out the above expose on NIWA. This time he&#8217;s talking about the 100 icebergs said to be heading our way:</p>
<p>&#8216;I think it’s exciting that we might see giant icebergs again, because it’s dramatic. However, the assumption that their close approach is connected with warming is odd, since the appearance of ice in my gin and tonic indicates just the opposite—a cooling trend. As you sail to Antarctica, the appearance of icebergs in the sea certainly confirms a cooling trend. A reasonable person, on hearing that icebergs appear because of warming, surely considers enquiring whether it’s actually because of cooling.</p>
<p>&#8216;Dr Young’s easy attribution of the calving of these icebergs to “global warming” is unlikeable and unconvincing. More likely is that, as usual, the ice shelf reaches such a length (through continual plentiful production of ice, please note!) that the ocean waves can move it about with sufficient force to snap it off. If warming was causing melting, what would survive to embark on a voyage to anywhere?</p>
<p>&#8216;It is equally likely that, because of cooling seas, the icebergs now survive the long voyage to New Zealand!</p>
<p>&#8216;I know of no evidence supporting a global rise in temperature recently. Certainly, no more than perhaps 0.2°C, something like that, in the few months which might have influenced the calving. In the Antarctic, such a rise might get you up to around minus eleventy five which is dreadfully chilly and won’t melt anything. There’s nothing abnormal going on here. Might we not reasonably expect the Herald to know this and to question the AFP story?</p>
<p>&#8216;They have let us down.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: John Ansell</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-636094</link>
		<dc:creator>John Ansell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:58:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-636094</guid>
		<description>LOOK AT THIS FOLKS: http://nzclimatescience.net/images/PDFs/global_warming_nz2.pdf

If true, it&#039;s proof that our own NIWA are card-carrying Climate Scientologists.

How will our media bury this one?

I didn&#039;t know that NIWA&#039;s former messiah Jim Salinger used to work at the now infamous University of East Anglia Climate Research Institute with Jones and co. That explains a lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOOK AT THIS FOLKS: <a href="http://nzclimatescience.net/images/PDFs/global_warming_nz2.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://nzclimatescience.net/images/PDFs/global_warming_nz2.pdf</a></p>
<p>If true, it&#8217;s proof that our own NIWA are card-carrying Climate Scientologists.</p>
<p>How will our media bury this one?</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t know that NIWA&#8217;s former messiah Jim Salinger used to work at the now infamous University of East Anglia Climate Research Institute with Jones and co. That explains a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: John Ansell</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635974</link>
		<dc:creator>John Ansell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635974</guid>
		<description>&quot;Who are you acting for?&quot; is not the right question. &quot;What is the truth?&quot; is the right question.

Whoever can answer that properly is acting for all of humanity.

Luc: I, for one, would like to see the rebuttals you mention to getstaffed&#039;s tight summary of the deceptions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Who are you acting for?&#8221; is not the right question. &#8220;What is the truth?&#8221; is the right question.</p>
<p>Whoever can answer that properly is acting for all of humanity.</p>
<p>Luc: I, for one, would like to see the rebuttals you mention to getstaffed&#8217;s tight summary of the deceptions.</p>
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		<title>By: sbk</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635961</link>
		<dc:creator>sbk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635961</guid>
		<description>&quot;Who are you acting for here&quot;..jeez pete..typical...it is not getstaffed&#039;s agenda we should be worried about..its the climate scientists who have promoted their own agenda..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Who are you acting for here&#8221;..jeez pete..typical&#8230;it is not getstaffed&#8217;s agenda we should be worried about..its the climate scientists who have promoted their own agenda..</p>
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		<title>By: getstaffed</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635950</link>
		<dc:creator>getstaffed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635950</guid>
		<description>Pete - I&#039;m doing what I think is right. No one is directing me. No one is paying me. Actually I&#039;m unemployed right now so have plenty of time. You&#039;ll note that I haven&#039;t asked your motives or questioned your charater. Nor will I.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete &#8211; I&#8217;m doing what I think is right. No one is directing me. No one is paying me. Actually I&#8217;m unemployed right now so have plenty of time. You&#8217;ll note that I haven&#8217;t asked your motives or questioned your charater. Nor will I.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete George</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635946</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635946</guid>
		<description>Another playbook type response. I&#039;ll rephrase the question - who are you acting for here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another playbook type response. I&#8217;ll rephrase the question &#8211; who are you acting for here?</p>
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		<title>By: Spam</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635942</link>
		<dc:creator>Spam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:00:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635942</guid>
		<description>Luc,

Gavin Schmidt is not some credible independent observer.  He is actually embroiled in that mess.  The main things in those e-mails that point to him are the statements about how other scientists are welsome to use RealClimate to publish their rebuttals to points, and that Gavin will actively filter comments to prevent any real challenge.  I.e. RealClimate censors the difficult questions.

In fact, there is a blog set-up specifically to post questions / comments that Gavin Schmidt and his ilk have censored.  RealClimate is a global warming advocacy blog.  

Going there to get a balanced view on Global Warming is about as useful as going to the Standard or Kiwiblog to get a balanced view on NZ politics (but the censorship at RC is probably worse).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luc,</p>
<p>Gavin Schmidt is not some credible independent observer.  He is actually embroiled in that mess.  The main things in those e-mails that point to him are the statements about how other scientists are welsome to use RealClimate to publish their rebuttals to points, and that Gavin will actively filter comments to prevent any real challenge.  I.e. RealClimate censors the difficult questions.</p>
<p>In fact, there is a blog set-up specifically to post questions / comments that Gavin Schmidt and his ilk have censored.  RealClimate is a global warming advocacy blog.  </p>
<p>Going there to get a balanced view on Global Warming is about as useful as going to the Standard or Kiwiblog to get a balanced view on NZ politics (but the censorship at RC is probably worse).</p>
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		<title>By: getstaffed</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635941</link>
		<dc:creator>getstaffed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:58:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635941</guid>
		<description>Truth doesn&#039;t belong to anyone. If it belonged to some and not to others it wouldn&#039;t be truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Truth doesn&#8217;t belong to anyone. If it belonged to some and not to others it wouldn&#8217;t be truth.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete George</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635940</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:54:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635940</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s not the way it comes across from you. Who&#039;s &quot;truth&quot; are you pushing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s not the way it comes across from you. Who&#8217;s &#8220;truth&#8221; are you pushing?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: getstaffed</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635939</link>
		<dc:creator>getstaffed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635939</guid>
		<description>The truth. That&#039;s all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The truth. That&#8217;s all.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete George</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635938</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635938</guid>
		<description>You do plenty of casting aspersions on the character and motives of many scientists.

What are your motives?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You do plenty of casting aspersions on the character and motives of many scientists.</p>
<p>What are your motives?</p>
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		<title>By: getstaffed</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635936</link>
		<dc:creator>getstaffed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635936</guid>
		<description>Pete, Feel free to push back on things I write that you find &#039;extremist&#039; or &#039;grossly exaggerated&#039;, or just cast aspersions on my character and/or motives. The latter seems much more your style. Sadly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete, Feel free to push back on things I write that you find &#8216;extremist&#8217; or &#8216;grossly exaggerated&#8217;, or just cast aspersions on my character and/or motives. The latter seems much more your style. Sadly.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete George</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635929</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:24:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635929</guid>
		<description>getstaffed, you mention Schmidt running interference on Real Climate. Who are you running interference for on Kiwiblog? You seem unnaturally obsessed with pushing only one side of this, often grossly exaggerating, and you have been repetitively parroting the same talking points, often repeating falsities. You talk about discredited evidence yet you have often quoted extremist unqualified &quot;skeptics&quot; who aren&#039;t displaying skepticism but rather blind faithlessness. Your approach is far more extreme than Schmidt&#039;s. Is someone paying you commission?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>getstaffed, you mention Schmidt running interference on Real Climate. Who are you running interference for on Kiwiblog? You seem unnaturally obsessed with pushing only one side of this, often grossly exaggerating, and you have been repetitively parroting the same talking points, often repeating falsities. You talk about discredited evidence yet you have often quoted extremist unqualified &#8220;skeptics&#8221; who aren&#8217;t displaying skepticism but rather blind faithlessness. Your approach is far more extreme than Schmidt&#8217;s. Is someone paying you commission?</p>
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		<title>By: OECD rank 22 kiwi</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635924</link>
		<dc:creator>OECD rank 22 kiwi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635924</guid>
		<description>The BBC isn&#039;t the best source of information on this matter: &lt;a href=&quot;http://burningourmoney.blogspot.com/2007/06/bbc-bias.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;BBC Bias&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The BBC isn&#8217;t the best source of information on this matter: <a href="http://burningourmoney.blogspot.com/2007/06/bbc-bias.html" rel="nofollow">BBC Bias</a></p>
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		<title>By: Luc Hansen</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635923</link>
		<dc:creator>Luc Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635923</guid>
		<description>Well, you guys convince the 192 governments that are sending delegations to Copenhagen.

Good luck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, you guys convince the 192 governments that are sending delegations to Copenhagen.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
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		<title>By: reid</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635921</link>
		<dc:creator>reid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635921</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The politicians usually don’t do controversial stuff like this just for fun!&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You mean like the Saddam-had-WMDs-Patriot-Act-Posse-Comitatus-Repeal-Downing-Street-Memo-Gulf-of-Tonkin-Treaty-of-Lisbon kind of fun, Luc?

You AGW evangelists are being played like a violin. Precisely like those who don&#039;t see through those other example incidents. Shame you and various others who believe one or more of those examples can&#039;t and won&#039;t see that, those who do see it could use your intellects. It&#039;s a real shame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The politicians usually don’t do controversial stuff like this just for fun!</p></blockquote>
<p>You mean like the Saddam-had-WMDs-Patriot-Act-Posse-Comitatus-Repeal-Downing-Street-Memo-Gulf-of-Tonkin-Treaty-of-Lisbon kind of fun, Luc?</p>
<p>You AGW evangelists are being played like a violin. Precisely like those who don&#8217;t see through those other example incidents. Shame you and various others who believe one or more of those examples can&#8217;t and won&#8217;t see that, those who do see it could use your intellects. It&#8217;s a real shame.</p>
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		<title>By: getstaffed</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635919</link>
		<dc:creator>getstaffed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635919</guid>
		<description>Yes, Copenhagen hotels and bars are gearing up for an veritable onslaught of trough-dwellers with their tax-payer funded expense accounts. It&#039;s going to be a talk, eat and drink fest like the Danes have never seen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Copenhagen hotels and bars are gearing up for an veritable onslaught of trough-dwellers with their tax-payer funded expense accounts. It&#8217;s going to be a talk, eat and drink fest like the Danes have never seen.</p>
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		<title>By: Luc Hansen</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635916</link>
		<dc:creator>Luc Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:36:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635916</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s some news:

1. Delegations from 192 nations are attending Copenhagen.  At least 60 leaders will attend, including the leaders of Britain, Germany, France, Spain, Australia, Japan, Indonesia and Brazil (BBC, 24 Nov 2009)

2. The following organisations have now outed themselves as part of the worldwide scientific, tax gathering, and world government conspiracy theory:
   
&quot;The Royal Society, Met Office, and Natural Environment Research Council (Nerc) say the science of climate change is more alarming than ever.

They say the 2007 UK floods, 2003 heatwave in Europe and recent droughts were consistent with emerging patterns.&quot;(BBC, 24 Nov 2009)

That&#039;s a LOT of zero credibility!  

;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s some news:</p>
<p>1. Delegations from 192 nations are attending Copenhagen.  At least 60 leaders will attend, including the leaders of Britain, Germany, France, Spain, Australia, Japan, Indonesia and Brazil (BBC, 24 Nov 2009)</p>
<p>2. The following organisations have now outed themselves as part of the worldwide scientific, tax gathering, and world government conspiracy theory:</p>
<p>&#8220;The Royal Society, Met Office, and Natural Environment Research Council (Nerc) say the science of climate change is more alarming than ever.</p>
<p>They say the 2007 UK floods, 2003 heatwave in Europe and recent droughts were consistent with emerging patterns.&#8221;(BBC, 24 Nov 2009)</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a LOT of zero credibility!<br />
 <img src='http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: getstaffed</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/ets_and_climate_change.html#comment-635912</link>
		<dc:creator>getstaffed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38625#comment-635912</guid>
		<description>Luc, Schmidt&#039;s role was, and remains to run interference for the CRU fraudsters. His replies may be &#039;informed and measured&#039;, but his credibility is zero in my view. However if reading RealClimate makes you feel secure amidst the crumbling temple of climate change then who am I to deny you that comfort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luc, Schmidt&#8217;s role was, and remains to run interference for the CRU fraudsters. His replies may be &#8216;informed and measured&#8217;, but his credibility is zero in my view. However if reading RealClimate makes you feel secure amidst the crumbling temple of climate change then who am I to deny you that comfort.</p>
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