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267 Responses to “General Debate 20 November 2009”
Phil Goff is correct in addressing the Reserve Bank’s statutorily imposed obsession with inflation. The exchange rate is killing kiwi businesses and we will never get out of debt unless something is done.
New consensus anyone?
English should also stop telling lies. Labour drove crown debt DOWN not up.
Copenhagen is DOA. President Zero can’t get support back home just yet and needs another six months. Zero needs to show Congress a Coalition of the Stupid of which NZ will be a member.
National are directly supporting Zero. (This is what Zero and Key talk about over breakfast even if it is for 4 minutes.) National’s drive to get ETS through is led by Nick Smith who is running secret deals to get the numbers. Secret deals which invlove massive transfer of weath from taxpayers to a small number of families. (Forget iwis it is the people at the top that control and benefit from the Treaty settlements)
Climate change it pollutes and corrupts everyone it touches.
Hone Harawira was born angry, from the womb of an angry woman. And what his latest outburst reveals is that there is among many Maori an abiding and malevolent antipathy towards Pakeha, which is far more widespread than we’re prepared to acknowledge, and which no amount of monetary and land compensation, special treatment and political cuddle-ups is going to change.
To make matters worse, there is a corresponding bitter antagonism to Maori on the part of many Pakeha, who deeply resent the money, land and special treatment given to Maori and whose anger grows exponentially with every new concession. This, too, is far more widespread than most people care to admit.
And don’t tell me I exaggerate: I have a finely tuned intuition and live in a city where at least a third of the population is Maori.
Yet we continue with a policy of separatism – you might even call it apartheid – the latest example of which is Tariana Turia’s Whanau Ora scheme to give Maori sole control of their community services.
The problem is that in their niavite’ the greens and their accolytes haven’t read the ‘fine print’ which is that UNLESS (and only unless) you are a muslim, when the take-over has occured, irrespective of how nice and supportive you have been towards islam at any point in the past, you are in line for extermination.
It’s always the fine print which is the important stuff – ‘the devil is in the detail’; the Greens simply don’t want to know, evidently believing that giaia will protect them, no matter what.
Herald Editorial: Major pitfalls in making votes binding
Tomorrow’s march organisers are advocating a different sort of democracy: “direct democracy” in which binding decisions are made by a majority of citizens who bother to vote in referendums.
The issue, in short, was not as straight-forward as the citizens’ initiative pretended. It was a subject better left to elected representatives with the time and interest to study the legal subtleties and social implications.
Rule by referendum would be far more rigid, which is why it is suitable for constitutional arrangements but not for the ordinary grind of good government.
If non-binding referendums have been a recipe for disappointment, binding polls in California have been a fiscal disaster. Many of those marching for direct democracy tomorrow would be the first to regret it.
Islam is quite explicit. You are either a Muslim, a slave or dead. Ask any Arab Christian or Zorastrian how much fun it is living as a dhimmi in a Muslim majority country.
1. JK reverting to the old Tina argument, you know,the old whore who rose to fame as a pretty youngster with Maggie Thatcher and who we all though had gone into a well deserved retirement. JK also complained, with stunning insight, that it is a complex problem. Well, currently we resolve a complex problem with a simple solution – the OCR. JK would do well to study this Menckenism: “For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.”
2. Blair officially goneburger from the EU presidency role. Just deserts? Maybe not quite yet. Kick him out of the ME would be a big plus.
3. Talking about the ME, Bibi doing a Blair and talking up a non-existent threat from Iran. Pretty risible stuff from the leader of country with enough legal and extra-legal weaponry to wipe out half the world.
4. Some REALLY good news: evolution, including human evolution, is alive and well and ongoing. But don’t hold your breath for any
more news soon
5. A question really: is the University of Auckland going to be shamed into sacking Witi as they would any student who tried the same thing in a paper?
It was interesting to hear Jolisa Gracewood on National Radio this morning. She said the 16 pieces of plagiarised work in Witi Ihimaera’s Trowenna Sea – which the author has been saying amount to only 0.4% of the work in an effort to dampen down the controversy – were only what she had identified when the issue of the Listener concerned went to press. She has subsequently found others, but didn’t say how many.
I will read this week’s issue of the Listener with great interest. And I await the University of Auckland’s backflip on its so-far inadequate sanctioning of Ihimaera’s actions.
“…anchor Gregg Jarrett waxed on about the crowds former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin had been getting on her book tour. Except it turned out the footage Fox was using at the time was from the 2008 campaign.”
Who woulda thort it – FOX News lying? Where will it end?
5. A question really: is the University of Auckland going to be shamed into sacking Witi as they would any student who tried the same thing in a paper?
I support the democracy we have Red (with some improvements). A democracy where people and parties with views right across the spectrum have a reasonably equal opportunity to take part. I support the right of Act and the Greens and all other parties to have a say.
I think the lefties’ love of muslims is purely because they (lefties and muslims) are anti-christian, and this is why I will always think they’re a bunch of hypocrites. With regard to freedom of religion they don’t believe in it at all.
Yes, because there is no democracy. A choice between tweedle dumb and tweedle dumber. Progressive party A or Progressive Party B. You’re a socialist totalitarian. Of course you support it.
“I think the lefties’ love of muslims is purely because they (lefties and muslims) are anti-christian,”
Partly right. The left’s strategy is to break us up into small groups and while we argue amongst ourselves over trifles, they beaver away in the background on their master plan.
Rightnow, do you think there are no leftie Christians? And no Muslim righties?
Here I am often put in the left box, although the majority of my views match those of DPF who claims to be right.
I am not anti-Christian.
I am not pro-Muslim (I don’t know any Muslims let alone love any).
I believe in freedom of religion and in freedom of non-religion.
You seem to believe in putting all those groups you disagree with in one box. Is that being simple, simplistic or simply a shotgun putdown?
The All Whites to SA, I noticed some yank living in NZ wrote to a newspaper complaining about the white power signs at the cake tin.
Good thing that sensitive septic did not come across the black is thicker than blood signs.
Jeez, I wish people would find out the bloody context of those signs before whining about them.
Heh, wonder how the white power signs will go in SA when the NZ soccer team is playing.
White is thicker than blood ?
True to form Red you avoid saying what “democracy” you want but sticking to your usual baseless attacks. You seem to be too busy (for the past ten years) attacking what you don’t like so you don’t think about what you do like. Or you haven’t the courage to come out and say what it is you want.
# RightNow (421) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 3 Says:
November 20th, 2009 at 10:06 am
I think the lefties’ love of muslims is purely because they (lefties and muslims) are anti-christian, and this is why I will always think they’re a bunch of hypocrites. With regard to freedom of religion they don’t believe in it at all.
*********************************************
Interesting POV – a belief in religious freedom allied with hatred of another religion. To me, it’s just racism wrapped up in in plain packaging.
It’s not religion, stupid, it’s human rights (Hat tip to Bill)
Yep, what we need is direct democracy in NZ, then we can all vote for a 2% total tax take.
Of course libertarians bludging at our universities would then whine that the tax rate needs to be raised to pay for their education.
NZ, our motto, let hypocrisy reign.
No, Hassleblad (or ‘blad to afficiendos) is merely a medium-format system. It uses a large sensor than SLRs (36×24). The advantage of such systems is typically that they create images that can be printed to a very large size, free of noise (the pixel-sensors can be larger). The catch is that the cameras aren’t very portable, and are often restricted to studio type settings.
Full-frame DSLRs are already operating at 21-25MP, so 40-50 on medium format is fine. You need a lot of computing power however.
Note that just adding more mega-pixels has effects on image quality. The individual pixel sensors have to get smaller, which means the image has more ‘noise’ (random colour artifacts). This effect can be reduced by applying a stronger AA filter in front of the sensor. But the filtering of the noise also reduces the captured detail. Some of the latest APS DSLRs that are at 15-18MP are in fact, worse off for noise than older models.
Pete, actually I know a lot of christians that are politically oriented to the left and who have no hesitation in engaging with muslims and other religions (my parents are prime examples). It is possible to have many viewpoints and still reconcile them, I do it myself with my parents’ christian beliefs against my atheism.
I maintain though that irrational anti-christian sentiment is rife in hardline lefties.
” me, it’s just racism wrapped up in in plain packaging. ”
Of course you would see it that way, but that’s because you’re an indoctrinated fool falling over yourself in frantic and mindless obeisance to PC Progressive doctrine, and hence too stupid to know the difference between race and religion.
” I maintain though that irrational anti-christian sentiment is rife in hardline lefties.”
They’re called Secular Progressives, and they’re the Third Reich without the Panzer brigades and the Stukas, but with the same desperate obsession of enforcing conformity of thought and speech.
Oh just medium format allright then. Who the hell would use one of these things?
If you want to produce a very large billboard with your product advertised on it, you’re not going to manage it with a point-and-shoot digicam. So MF is pretty much a studio type system. A lot of landscape photographers also use them. But it is a very expensive and heavy way to do photography. They also have quite low shooting speeds.
Sport and wildlife photographers aren’t so keen on MF systems, as they’re too slow and too heavy.
Haven’t seen them Ryan- do you have a link? I hang around a couple of photography forums, but obviously miss a lot.
Motion sensors used to trigger cameras have been around for a while, but digital technology is really letting people explore new ways to take photographs. I like film in many ways, but it’s less amenable to some of these experiments.
Grumpy, I also have rational anti religious beliefs (and in fact I’m not quite sure what your point is). Freedom from religion is something I believe in too, which makes me all the more dubious of left wingers embracing muslims when it is clear that their religion advocates killing or enslaving non-muslims.
Freedom from religion is something I believe in too, which makes me all the more dubious of left wingers embracing muslims when it is clear that their religion advocates killing or enslaving non-muslims.
You are aware, are you not, the Judaism, and thus xtianity, also advocate the same?
I think the point of agreement between Left Wingers/Progressives and Islam is that they both share the common goal of the destruction of Western Judeo-Christian Democracies.
The fact that democracy only really works within a Judeo-Christian framework is also perhaps ONE of the reasons why Christianity and Judaism also come in for attention from those sought on the destruction of western democracy.
RightNow as a old fashioned lefty I dislike ALL religions, the whole bloody lot are just a bunch of sects.
Yet, we have right wingers and no doubt some left wingers in this country who believe speaking in tongues is good form.
I would like the to pick the snakes those types believe they should handle, a few Taipans come to mind.
As for the welfare class who belong to the bloody Mormons I would cut their welfare payments by the amounts they give of taxpayers’ money to Salt Lake city.
All Muslims want to kill non believers, I wonder why that bloke from the SI who is a Muslim born in NZ and who served as a rear gunner during WW2 did not take the opportunity to slaughter a few non believers on the airfield when he was seated behind four Browning MGs ?
We better watch that Pakistani cricket team.
Strange how a good Christian who bombed a building in the US is never bought up, why is that ?
ETS – Do Nothing Option (my comment on DPF’s article)
• Do nothing and face trade sanctions (and also risk the world actually does heat up quickly as projected) with exports dropping.
The fact that the ETS is based on pseudo science, is being pushed by the corrupt UN, and by socialist ideologues is MORE than reason enough to do nothing. NZers are idiots if we think we have to lead the charge on this. Ultimately the ETS is just a means of funding a non elected, non representative global government which will, among others things, remove the national sovereignty of nation states.
Reject the ETS if you value your freedom and independence!
Anyone notice the Government appointing a top MSM executive to a power position on the key committee on its broadband policy (link below).
Matthews is a capable guy in this field, and it wasn’t his fault the cable network he began (Saturn) didn’t expand through the cities.
However, after all the cronyism of Labour, and Clark stacking Government boards with party lackeys, we were expecting better of National. This appointment harnesses to the Govt wagon one of the two key MSM forces in NZ.
Grumpy, I don’t actually believe that “All Muslims want to kill non believers”. The problem is that while most may be happy to live side by side with non-muslims, there will be some who do want to kill the infidels.
Now can you explain to me how with your distaste for all religion you’ve become an advocate for Islam?
MNIJ, why would I want to do that? You presented the fallacy, it’s not up to me to read a book because you can’t string two premises together to reach a valid conclusion. I suggest you need to read up on validity of arguments http://philosophy.hku.hk/think/arg/valid1.php
November 20th, 2009 at 11:47 am
MNIJ, why would I want to do that? You presented the fallacy, it’s not up to me to read a book because you can’t string two premises together to reach a valid conclusion
As i thouht, you’ve never read the bible, so you don’t know shit.
The Muslim apologists are out again today in General Debate.
Let’s cut to the key problem between Islam and the West: the treatment of the half of the human race that is female.
Burquas, veils, women shut out of schooling in fundamentalist Islam countries….
Barbarians! But where are the militant feminists on this? Like other stunted leftists they hate the West more than they hate Islam’s moral and intellectual enslavement of women.
Also, when the Muslim apologists among leftist Westies dredge up the Dark Ages, and ignore the role of Byzantium and even Irish monasteries in keeping the flames of Western civilisation alive, they imply Islam provides a reasonable milieu for science.
Yet Islam does not accept Darwin’s theory of evolution, and Islamists have problems with the theory that is shared within Christianity only by the most fundamental sects.
How many books are being translated from the bubbling West’s core language, English, into Arabic, the core language of Islam? I bet it’s far fewer than are being translated into Braille.
Face it: communism is dead, socialism is dying, so the political retards are toying with Islam.
Leviticus 25:44-46: “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”
Deuteronomy 21:10-14: “When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.”
Phil Goff is correct in addressing the Reserve Bank’s statutorily imposed obsession with inflation.
I wouldn’t leave Phil Goff in charge of the kid’s lunch money. No one can take his vacuous piffle seriously, more so when it relates the principles that underpin our economic performance.
Grumpy, I don’t actually believe that “All Muslims want to kill non believers”. The problem is that while most may be happy to live side by side with non-muslims, there will be some who do want to kill the infidels.
Now can you explain to me how with your distaste for all religion you’ve become an advocate for Islam?
While I agree with you that APPARENTLY ‘not all Muslims want to kill non believers’, I would argue that if they were Christians we would call them luke warm Christians (perhaps even non Christians). Or those that reject the fundamentals of their faith. All good Muslims MUST adhere to the teachings of the Koran, and the example set by Mohammed.
This is all so called radical, or good, Muslims are doing – adhering to the teachings of their faith. Islam also practices ‘peace’ with their enemies until such time as they become a force to be reckoned with. So our moderate, or ‘luke warm’, Muslims are perhaps really just radicals awaiting to reach critical mass within the societies which host them.
I tend to think that most Muslims fit into this latter category – sleeper radicals biding their time.
We found that female short-nosed fruit bats C. sphinx lick their mate’s penis regularly during copulation, and that each second of licking results in approximately 6 extra seconds of copulation. Copulations also last longer if licking occurs than when no licking takes place.
And if you want to bypass the article and go straight to the bat porn here’s the video.
“Building peace needs work at every level. It is not just the absence of violence, but the presence of justice and freedom. It will not happen between nations and religions until we have learned to build it between people. And that does not just happen – it needs to be worked at.”
Jeanette Fitzsimons 12/9/01
“New Zealand should condemn the dawn raids on Australia’s Muslim community, Green Party Foreign Affairs spokesperson Keith Locke said today.”The Bali bombing cannot justify Australian police terrorising Muslim families in Australia,” said Mr Locke. New Zealand should caution Australia about being caught up in the anti-Islamic hysteria flowing out of recent terrorist incidents. It was a huge over-reaction for the Australian police to sledgehammer their way into people’s homes waving around pistols and sub-machine guns. It seems people are being raided merely because of allegations they have associated with Islamic fundamentalists.”
Keith Locke 2002
“There’s really no difference between providing a mosque and, say, a cricket pavilion,” said Ms Turei, the Green Party Spokesperson on Education, Ethnic Affairs and Immigration. Not everyone plays cricket, not everyone is Muslim – but both are extra-curricular needs that can be met by schools so students can develop as rounded and un-alienated individuals… Ms Turei insists that the provision of a prayer room does not disturb the principle of secular education because students are not being given religious instruction. A room for people to practice their religion is not the provision of religious education, which is not appropriate in state schools.”
Metiria Turei 2004
“Whether the London bombings were carried out by Christians, Moslems or atheists is beside the point. They came out of extremist politics, not the tenets of any world religion. The London atrocities had nothing to do with the Islamic religion, which is a peaceful creed…We must unflinchingly support the Moslem people of New Zealand…
Keith Locke 2005
“Muslims in Australia feel under siege today, and we do not want to see that happen here. We have a much more tolerant climate in New Zealand. Tomorrow there will be a celebration in Parliament marking the end of Ramadan – a month of prayer and positive reflection; one of whose themes is peace. However, we cannot rest on our laurels…Prejudice towards Muslims is a by-product of the so-called war on terror spearheaded by the Bush administration and implemented in a repressive legislative form by George Bush’s allies, particularly John Howard and Tony Blair. We have some bad legislation of our own, such as the Terrorism Suppression Act of 2002 that is now being reviewed by this Parliament… A second and related goal of the Green Party will be to promote racial and religious tolerance, particularly towards Muslim people whose religion has been so negatively portrayed by such people as the leader of New Zealand First, Winston Peters. Associated with this, we will be trying to get people to understand the roots of small group terrorism of the al-Qaeda type. That has nothing to do with religion itself, but very unfortunately it draws adherents out of the political, social, and economic crisis – and injustice suffered by many people in the Islamic world, particularly in places like Palestine.”
Keith Locke 2005
“The Green Party has condemned Peters’ call for Islamic leaders to dob in dangerous members of their community. This is an insult to the Muslim community,” Human Rights Spokesperson Keith Locke says. There is no more evidence of ‘extremism’ among Muslims than there is among Christians, Jews, Hindus or atheists. Mr Peters slanders Muslim leaders when he accuses them of tolerating dangerous people in their community.”
Keith Locke 2005
“The Immigration Service must stop targeting Muslim New Zealanders when they return to the country, Green Party Immigration Spokesperson Keith Locke says.”
Keith Locke 2005
It hurts Muslims deeply that Islam is being portrayed as a violent religion… Muslims are no different from any other religious community in that they are more open to criticism when it comes from those sympathetic to the way Islam, like other world religions, contributes positively to community life. Unfortunately, most New Zealanders still treat Islam as a somewhat backward religion, and little appreciate its goodness and diversity… They were hardly alone in the community in not fully appreciating the international context of the Muslim reaction — of Muslims being put down by the governments, armies and, indeed, people of the West.
Keith Locke 2006
Luc Hansen, at 10.21, dredges up the old chestnut of racism as the reason people oppose Islam.
Yeah, that’s why white Muslims and white non-Muslims slaughtered each other in Bosnia.
That’s why white infidel Russians and white, Muslim Chechens slaughtered each other. (As an African American observed, people don’t come more Caucasian than Chechens and other peoples from the Caucasus).
Luc Hansen repeatedly sidesteps and dodges questions about Islam’s treatment of females as second class people, then denies he has avoided answering before makaing a new post.
Luc surely you aren’t into Islam for the bullshit about a sex squad of virgins awaiting you on the Other Side?
An on the racism, Luc, tell us where the derogatory word for black Africans, “kaffir”, comes from?
Kris K preached “The fact that democracy only really works within a Judeo-Christian framework …” try telling that to the ancient Greeks.
Most functional modern day democratic societies spring from a Judeo-Christian foundation.
For example; Israel – the only democracy in the Middle East, and most of what are/were Christian nations – Europe, the US, etc., form the backbone of western type democracies.
As these nations throw off their Judeo-Christian heritage they also start to flounder as democracies and become ripe for takeover by other ideologies (Socialism, Communism, Islam, etc.).
Don’t we see this process at work in our very own nation?
Oooo, I can do that. They’re in the Old Testament. Being a Christian is all about becoming more like Christ. The story of his life and followers is in the New Testament. I think the world would be a better place if more of us became more like Him: Humble, honest, compassionate, real etc
But if you do insist on picking our single verses in a lame attempt to discredit Christianity then why not use the New Testament, Matthew 27:5 (‘Judas hung himself in the potters field’) as an endorsement of suicide.
It’s interesting how people are so eager to claim commonly valued people and institutions for their own, in arguments of ideology. And eager to associate the other with commonly hated people and institutions.
“We all like democracy, yes? Well, democracy comes from people agreeing with me about God. We all hate Hitler, yes? Well, Hitler comes from people disagreeing with me about God.”
Those words could be spoken by an atheist or a Christian with equal conviction. (Not every atheist, of course, nor every Christian.)
The passage neither states nor implies rape. Just the opposite. The required waiting/mourning period before MARRYING her would seem to indicate that the woman was not exactly struggling – though as a captive she is ipso-facto not free but under compulsion.
Interestingly, the same law also forbids the man from ever selling her, enslaving her, or even divorcing her against her will under any circumstances. What’s more, the whole tenor of the passage evinces a dim view of the practice, discouraging it while granting it as a concession to human nature and the desperate circumstances of the times.
The long one –
The author would seem to think that the mere record of an act implies that God condones the act.
-He seemes to think that punishing sin is sinful.
Punishing sin does not make God unjust, but just. Punishing sin in kind, where people reap what they sow, and reap with interest, is not only just, but profoundly (and poetically) just.
-He only sees sin in individualistic terms. There is, however, always a corporate/group-aspect to sin as well as salvation in this life, and consequently a corporate/group-aspect to Divine justice in this life.
-He is ignorant of ancient economic and natural circumstances, assuming that slavery is never a necessary evil. However, slavery in ancient subsistence societies was the merciful alternative to genocide or abandonment to death by depravation.
-He simply assumes that all female slaves were sex-slaves, raped at will. Historically, taking female captives as bound maid-servants does not indicate rape, or even sexual relations with their master – though a woman needed children as her old-age pension and if the master would not take her as a concubine or wife for himself or one of his sons – thereby giving her children – she’d try persuade him to give her as a wife to one of his male servants. In Israel, Deuteronomy 21 put significant restrictions on the treatment of female captives: there was no dragging them off to your tent and forcing their legs apart. The master could only bed them if he wed them; he had to let them mourn their dead relatives for a month before wedding them, and he could never divorce a captive-bride against her will. There is no indication that Israelites ever believed that physically forcing a woman to have sex against her will was ever appropriate or righteous.
Also, a marriage or concubinage contract that the bride refused to consummate would be annulled. A wife or concubine who later denied her husband’s conjugal rights and gave no indication of relenting would be divorced.
- “Take” does not imply force or lack of cooperation. Last night I took my wife to the movies and then carried her off to bed. The author of the article would insist that means I abducted her and raped her, never mind the fact that it was a chick-flick she begged me to take her to see, and she fell asleep in the car on the way home and I literally had to carry her to bed.
- The author assumes marriage to captives were always forced (a form of bride-stealing) and were ipso-facto rape, and that as such can never be justified. However, there are many things worse than compulsory concubinage and marriage, most notably death, damnation and the Old Testament equivalent of damnation: extinction – the end of a bloodline. I’m sorry ladies, Biblically posterity trumps “choice” as a greater good, and it is better that a woman live and bear children (whether she wants to or not) by her captor/master who provides for her and their children, than that she should be killed, die of want, or survive as a temple-prostitute. (Please note the comparative clause at the end. Ancient choices were severely limited by the harshest economic and natural realities. I’m not suggesting it would be better for a girl to marry and have children by the varsity FOOLback who date-raped her on prom-night, than to go to college, study medicine, and become a top-flight neurosurgeon – it would, however, be better than her going to Law School and becoming another shrill feminist attorney :p )
- Forced marriage and even forced sex within marriage – however deplorable by modern standards – is not rape, at least in an age where reproduction and provision and protection of one’s young is the first duty of every man and woman not just to each other but to all their ancestors, relatives, and descendants. And then, as now, both spouses had conjugal rights – i.e., neither’s body was entirely his or her own, but both belonged to both.
- Marriage and (for the unmarriageable) concubinage were practical matters and necessities of life, not personal lifestyle choices or matters of romance. People generally had fairly few options as to who they would or could be mated with, and the final decision was usually up to others, and marriages were between families and whole lineages, not individuals.
- Sexual needs are real; sexual desires in both sexes are relentless and have little to do with love and compatibility and everything to do with fertility and genetic programming, and, in an age before effective contraception, satisfying them invariably led to children – children who needed both mother and a father desperately. Ancient women understood this even better than ancient men.
- In ancient times, virtually all virgins knew themselves to be in the same predicament as most 40-something female divorcees with kids are today: their criteria for a husband: “You’ve got a job, a house, a car, a Gold Card, no communicable diseases, you’re not a drunk, and you won’t beat me? GREAT! You’re hired!”
- At the heart of the author’s objections is the presumption of a feminist value system, that women should not be expected (or expect themselves) to submit to and yield to their husbands and parents (bosses, employers, professors, policemen, bureaucrats, government agents, officials and office-holders are okay though) and that being married, having sex, and having a baby are all independent of each other, and that all (especially the last one) are exclusively the woman’s own choice and solely subject to her own plans, whims, desires, ambitions, fantasies, and convenience. This is but a modern luxury that less affluent societies could in no way afford. It may in fact soon prove that this one can’t afford it either.
Kris K You seem confused, parts of Turkey are in the Middle East, Turkey is a democracy.
I do admit that the Turks are a touch annoyed at the Israelis for using Gaza women and children as target practice even though the majority were only Muslims.
Maybe Israel will have a crack at the Turks, now that would be amusing.
I don’t really see the point you’re trying to make in your 12:36 pm comment.
Perhaps you would clarify for us.
I’ve just often observed this phenomenon. People want big hitters on their side, and no matter what their belief, they will find a way to argue those big hitters on to their side. Christians say Jesus was God, Hindus say Jesus was one of many incarnations of God, Muslims say Jesus was a prophet of Allah, secular humanists say Jesus was a human moral teacher, and so on. Everyone does the opposite with Hitler.
And they also seem to do it with things like democracy. Because democracy is another big hitter in these arguments – it’s something people on both sides of arguments value. So Christians say democracy came from Christianity and secularists say democracy came from breaking free of Christianity, and so on.
MNIJ, you seem to think I lend some credence to what it written in the OT. I can’t think of anything I may have said (posted) to lead you to this conclusion. I have read the bible cover to cover three times, admittedly over 25 years ago, and I have no reason to re-read it because as I have pointed out, I am an atheist. However, I still am amazed that anti-christians keep quoting OT verses. IMO christianity is founded on the teachings of Christ and nothing to do with the OT. Real christians (again IMO) are those that hold one principle above all – love one another. There’s a lot of people out there who call themselves christians who would do well to think about that, and likewise there’s a lot of people out there who also believe in that principle who don’t call themselves christians.
And they also seem to do it with things like democracy. Because democracy is another big hitter in these arguments – it’s something people on both sides of arguments value. So Christians say democracy came from Christianity and secularists say democracy came from breaking free of Christianity, and so on.
So where do you stand, Ryan?
Surely, even you’ll admit that modern day democracies are founded upon Judeo-Christian values and principles; and that our laws and justice system were (at least originally) based on the ten commandments. Modern day democracies acknowledged (past tense) the God of the Bible, and their ultimate accountability to Him.
That would be wise. However, even though I don’t know anyone who owns a submarine, that doesn’t mean submarine owners don’t exist.
True, but if you knew a great many submarine owners and you told me that none of them wear hats, that would be of value in a conversation where someone made generalisation about the hat-wearing tendencies of submarine owners.
MNIJ – give it a rest man. Who cares. Are christians reading these things and flying planes into buildings or massacring half a million people in Darfur? If they were you would have a point.
Surely, even you’ll admit that modern day democracies are founded upon Judeo-Christian values and principles; and that our laws and justice system were (at least originally) based on the ten commandments. Modern day democracies acknowledged (past tense) the God of the Bible, and their ultimate accountability to Him.
I think it’s too complex an issue to be simplified into either “based on Christianity” or “based on breaking free of religion”.
I do disagree that our laws and justice system were based on the 10 Commandments. It is more that laws and justice systems tend to be many things, one of which are the behaviours necessary for a group to operate effectively (don’t kill each other, don’t steal from each other, etc.), and that the 10 Commandments are an example of laws fulfilling those necessities in the the context they were written.
The 10 Commandments, and other Judaic laws, were the law of the Hebrew people. They bear similarities to Confucian law and ancient Greek law and Buddhist monastic law and playground rules and employee codes of conduct because: they are all laws, and what is conducive to cooperation in groups of humans doesn’t vary all that wildly throughout time or place.
I don’t really think they believe in religious freedom at all, and that is my point.
**********************************
Well your point is wrong. It is well recognised in history that the spread of Islam was aided by the enlightened (for the times) treatment of the conquered peoples. Conversion to Islam was encouraged, and brought benefits, but adherence to other religions was certainly tolerated (but they had to pay tax). 17% of the West Bank, for example, even in the face of intense enmity with the nominally Jewish State busy occupying, oppressing and dispossessing it, are Jewish (CIA Factbook). And these are not settler Jews, who are not counted as part of the West Bank population.
This is not to say that some Muslim extremists do preach death to infidels but that has to be seen in the context of the modern era, just as the extremists in the US sometimes actually kill for the sake of their religion.
Human rights apply to all. I actually fail to see any rational endpoint to your and Kris’ rantings. You believe SOME Muslims want to kill non-Muslims (lets leave to one side for the moment all the wild chat talk from Christians that Islam needs, hence all Muslims, need to be eliminated).
So what’s your game? Do you advocate killing all Muslims because of the sins of a few?
Nearly every serial killer in US history is Christian. The worst home grown terrorist was a fundamentalist Christian. Should we kill all Christians in the US?
Jack5, I don’t sidestep anything. The treatment of women in Islam is grossly offensive to our western values, but that is not a reason to go to war. Just as old writings are no reason to do to war, and just as past sins of Christians are no reason to go to war. This is always my main point. Of the three Abrahamic religions, two retain the savagery of those ancient writings and one actually specialised in practicing the same for a long, long time even if expunging that aspect from their texts.
And Jack, if you are not Islamophobic, you are racist. If you are not racist, you are Islamophobic. Many of the same defining principles apply to both terms, and you comments fulfill them, so take your choice.
Kris K You seem confused, parts of Turkey are in the Middle East, Turkey is a democracy.
Turkey requires an army to uphold the fiercely secular constitution. To stay secular, they have to remove freedoms that seem pretty fundamental (eg, private religious schools). In fact, you cannot even have family that bear Islamic cover if you want to be in the army. Without such a fiercely secular constitution, Turkey would end up like Saudi Arabia.
Perhaps a democracy in name only; and not the freedoms we would associate with a truly free western democracy.
Turkey’s pretty tough, too, on the quarter or more of its population that is Kurdish. Until recently, and perhaps still, Christians were allowed to teach in primary schools but not secondary schools, and Christians could not be officers in the army.
Still by Middle East standards it’s quite progressive, though Muslim extremists are trying to turn it back, such as by bringing back head coverings for women.
Perhaps Ryan, but the flipside is that because you don’t know any “secular left-wingers who “embrace Muslims” in any way that condones killing or enslaving non-Muslims” that doesn’t support a conclusion that there aren’t any.
What would constitute ‘condones’ in your statement? In my opinion any muslim who adheres strictly to the religion is ultimately going to have to reconcile the teaching to kill and enslave non-muslims. Under the umbrella of cultural sensitivity many are tacitly condoning this.
Muslims follow the teachings of Mohammed, and look to his life as an example.
Christians follow the teachings of Christ, and look to His life as an example.
Mohammed and his followers kill[ed] their enemies.
Christ died for His enemies; and his followers are not to murder even their enemies, but show them God’s love.
Your examples of so called ‘Christian’ terrorists were following neither the teachings of Christ, nor the example He set. By the Biblical definition they were not Christians.
The Roman Cotholic crusades were also non Biblical, and anti Christian activities.
It would appear Lebanon, Iran, Afghanistan, are not democracies. I know I’ll get shit for including Iran but although it is not our idea of democracy, they are working on it. And many other ME states are developing democracies. Democracy is a relatively new concept in these lands. The white supremacists here forget that it took the West centuries to develop reasonably functional democracies.
Luc Hansen ignores my question about the origins of the word “kaffir” to brand me either a racist or Islamophobe. By this standard, Hansen is a woman hater.
Hansen brushes off the question about Islam’s treatment of women. The question was how does Hansen defend Islam’s treatment of women as second-class citizens and Hansen yet again replied: it’s no reason to go to war. That’s no answer at all. No-one said it was a reason to go to war.
On Hansen’s throwing around of the word “racism”, how about he answer the question of how he reconciles this claim with white Muslims fighting non-Muslim whites in what was Yugoslavia and in Russia?
I’m also still waiting for Hansen to explain the derivation of “kaffir”, a derogatory word for black Africans. (Hansen won’t so here it is: “kaffir” a derogatory word legally actionable in South Africa is the Arab word for Muslim unbeliever, and comes from the Arab slave traders who even today enslave and deal in black Africans.)
Hansen might also like to explain Arab Muslims’ persecution, genocide, and frequently enslavement, of black Africans, usually non-Muslim, across North Africa. As a defender of such racism, Hansen himself may meet the definition of racist.
Also remember that while the Atlantic slave trade is used as a stick to beat Europeans with even now, the Arab slave trade which continues to this day in Africa hardly warrants a mention, depsite the fact that as many, if not more, actual humans were enslaved. I guess tens of thousands of blacks dying in slave coffles trekking across Africa doesn’t have the4 same visual appeal as the same people dying in the holds of slave ships.
Luc, you’ve completely missed the point again. My contention is that for many hardline lefties they are very pro-muslim under the guise of inclusiveness, cultural sensitivity and freedom of religion, yet they are vehemently anti-christian. You only have to look at MNIJ who seems to perpetually be on an anti-christian rampage. I have no problem with people adhering to a religion as long as it doesn’t interfere with my freedoms, and ultimately that is the goal of islam.
I believe Islam is a real threat. It is a religion that has the end-goal of dominating the world and killing or enslaving all those that don’t adhere to it. Meanwhile the genuine christians I see around the place are all busy doing social work.
So Israel is not a proper democracy for the only people who have an absolute right of return to Israel are Jews.
Of course that includes that kiwi who committed treason against NZ.
Would you white supremacists want him strung up if we get our hands on him ?
Luc Hansen at 1.29 posted: “…he white supremacists here forget that it took the West centuries to develop reasonably functional democracies.”
Bullshit, Hansen. The Ancient Greeks, the founders of the West, invented democracy and had democratic states more than 2000 years ago.
What are you suggesting any way, that Middle Easterners aren’t intellectually capable of adopting a new political system, namely democracy? You seem to be saying it will take them generations to master it.
More Hansen racism, eh?
And Grumpy joins with the “white supremist” chorus.
Anyone who questions Islam a racial supremist Grumpy? C’mon.
Perhaps Ryan, but the flipside is that because you don’t know any “secular left-wingers who “embrace Muslims” in any way that condones killing or enslaving non-Muslims” that doesn’t support a conclusion that there aren’t any.
No, I would have to know all of them to say that there are none, but the statements to which I was responding seemed to imply something a bit more general than one or two of them hidden around the world.
What would constitute ‘condones’ in your statement? In my opinion any muslim who adheres strictly to the religion is ultimately going to have to reconcile the teaching to kill and enslave non-muslims. Under the umbrella of cultural sensitivity many are tacitly condoning this.
My use of the word “condone” was only an attempt to sum up whatever it was I and other leftists seemed to be accused of. You say, “Under the umbrella of cultural sensitivity many are tacitly condoning this.” Again I say, I know a great many secular leftists and I don’t know any who condone slavery, murder or the lack of religious freedom, tacitly or otherwise.
Give me an example of a secular leftist condoning the slavery and/or murder of non-Muslims. They would be condoning their own enslavement or murder for a start.
Jack, I don’t need to explain anything. You keep going off on tangents and introducing red herrings. Oh, and of course, keeping up the personal abuse. Let’s just tone that down, OK.
I answered your question on Islamic treatment of women openly and clearly. But what do you want me to do about it?
All races have their dark sides in history. Periods of tolerance and periods of intolerance. Good points, bad points, although it’s all relative.
I am still waiting for you and Kris to tell me what it is that you want. Just what is your point? Keep it straight and simple, if you can. At the moment, you are just preaching hatred of Muslims.
Jack5, I don’t sidestep anything. The treatment of women in Islam is grossly offensive to our western values
Luc does sidestep the question with a lame call to moral relativism. Let me help you out Luc – you seem to struggle with this. The treatment of woman in Islam is grossly offensive. Period.
I know you have a weird view of Catholicism, but the First Crusade was ordered by Pope Urban II. Catholics adhere to Christianity.
You’d better hope so, Luc. Of course, if you’re wrong there will be no ‘getting over it’.
Roman Catholics follow the latest edicts from the latest pope; who they believe is ‘God on earth’. Whatever blasphemy comes out of the vatican/pope always over-rides Biblical teaching and the example Christ set for His followers.
Roman Catholicism is an unbiblical, ungodly cult which leads millions to a Christless eternity. I guess you’ll have lots of time to compare notes after the fact.
Of course that includes that kiwi who committed treason against NZ.
Would you white supremacists want him strung up if we get our hands on him ?
Seems this white supremacist stuff is spreading fast:
In one of a series of TV interviews during his trip to Asia, Obama said those offended by the legal privileges given to Muhammed by virtue of getting a civilian trial rather than a military tribunal won’t find it: “offensive at all when he’s convicted and when the death penalty is applied to him.”
The extra-judicial approach is the cream on top.
I’t’s another one of those “what if Bush had said that” chuckle moments.
Personal abuse, Luc Hansen? When you are calling posters who disagree with you white supremists? You can abuse others for racism when you apparently defend racist actions? And accuse us of preaching hatred of Muslims.
You did not, have not, and apparently cannot answer questions about Islam’s treatment of women. You have answered only that it’s not a cause for war (when no-one suggested it was), and said “all races have their dark sides in history”, when we were discussing adherents of a religion and their beliefs and practices, not members of a race.
You are clearly unable to reconcile a Western citizen’s conscience with Islam’s treatment of women and attitudes to them.
It is insufficient to be unable to answer a question then demand to know what the question is. In effect you are repeatedly saying: “I cannot answer that question, what is the question?”
Ryan, going back to the statement I made “Freedom from religion is something I believe in too, which makes me all the more dubious of left wingers embracing muslims when it is clear that their religion advocates killing or enslaving non-muslims.”
I think there are two parts to it that you take issue with. First, left wingers embracing muslims. It is easy to see examples of this (e.g. the post from Swiftman the Infidel at 12.18pm). Second, “it is clear that their religion advocates the killing or enslaving of non-muslims”. I think that is a given, the question really is how many muslims are devout enough to adhere to that part of their religion, and if the answer is anything other than zero then it’s too many.
Back to your statement of “I don’t know any secular left-wingers who “embrace Muslims” in any way that condones killing or enslaving non-Muslims”. This is actually not what I said at all, is it?
What we want Luc is for you to justify your position as a defender of Islam, specifically in relation to its treatment of women.
We’ve asked you scores of times and you pretend you don’t understand.
“I tend to think that most Muslims fit into this latter category – sleeper radicals biding their time.”
Have you considered that non-Christians might think that most Christians are sleeper Crusaders.
I don’t think they are, but others might.
Democracies have grown and strengthened as more people get better educated and the influence and control of the churches have waned (ironically churches have often been instrumental in educating).
Jack, …
I am still waiting for you and Kris to tell me what it is that you want. Just what is your point? Keep it straight and simple, if you can. At the moment, you are just preaching hatred of Muslims.
Your comment more highlights your lack of comprehension skills, than our ability to put forward our views clearly.
Or is it feigned ignorance?
Pointing out the reality of Islam is just that. While I hate the system of Islam, I feel compassion and sorrow for those caught up in it. I’m happy to testify of Christ’s death on their behalf just as much as I would any other individual. But I refuse to keep quiet about the Satanic nature of Islam, and the very real threat it is to all those that love freedom.
If we were as illogical as Luc Hansen we would describe Pete George”s suggestion Muslims might think Christians are “sleeper Crusaders” as Christian bashing.
Luc Hansen sees any questioning or criticism of Islam as Muslim bashing.
That might be the view in Saudi Arabia, Luc, but it doesn’t apply here.
Pointless stuff. Haven’t you realised I think all religions are foolish delusions? What I am defending is the Muslims right to work through their own issues, in their own lands. I recognise that antagonising and radicalising Muslims in their own lands is not going to help the people we all want to help. Every single Muslim I have met here (including my ex-next door neighbours of nearly a decade) have been lovely, peaceful people, aghast at the goings on in their former homelands, but passionate advocates of non-interference.
You need to examine our definitions of racism and Islamophobia, carefully, and I am sure you will find that many of your above comments fit the bill.
And now you turn your plentiful vitriol on me. Well, I’m proud I have resisted the very strong urge to respond in kind. Take a break. Have a Kit Kat.
Ryan, going back to the statement I made “Freedom from religion is something I believe in too, which makes me all the more dubious of left wingers embracing muslims when it is clear that their religion advocates killing or enslaving non-muslims.”
I think there are two parts to it that you take issue with. First, left wingers embracing muslims. It is easy to see examples of this (e.g. the post from Swiftman the Infidel at 12.18pm).
I certainly didn’t deny that there are left-wingers who defend Muslims’ rights to equality and respectful treatment. I was more specific precisely for this reason.
Second, “it is clear that their religion advocates the killing or enslaving of non-muslims”. I think that is a given, the question really is how many muslims are devout enough to adhere to that part of their religion, and if the answer is anything other than zero then it’s too many.
It is not a given. Religions evolve. Certainly there are interpretations on Islam that are incompatible with liberal secular democracy, just as there are interpretations of Christianity that are incompatible with liberal secular democracy.
Again, this is why I was more specific. There are left-wingers defending Muslims’ rights to equal and respectful treatment. That does not equate to agreeing with or condoning any part of those human beings’ religion, murderous interpretation or otherwise.
Back to your statement of “I don’t know any secular left-wingers who “embrace Muslims” in any way that condones killing or enslaving non-Muslims”. This is actually not what I said at all, is it?
Not until 1.25. Could you explain what you meant by this?
“In my opinion any muslim who adheres strictly to the religion is ultimately going to have to reconcile the teaching to kill and enslave non-muslims. Under the umbrella of cultural sensitivity many are tacitly condoning this.”
What exactly were you saying that “many are tacitly condoning”?
“I tend to think that most Muslims fit into this latter category – sleeper radicals biding their time.”
Have you considered that non-Christians might think that most Christians are sleeper Crusaders.
I don’t think they are, but others might.
I’m glad you’re not in that group, Pete.
To those that may hold this view I would ask them to compare recent history where Islam is/has essentially taking over Europe, Africa, many of the Russian states, etc. And contrast that with the occurance of the last (Roman Catholic) Crusade.
Of course, as I said before, Roman Catholicism is not representative of Biblical Christianity. The RC Crusades would be one of many examples of this.
Remember many of the victims of the RC Crusades were actually Biblical Christians who refused to bow to the authority of Rome. Have a read of Fox’s Book of the Martyrs which highlights this.
Stop posing as a cool, rational, civilised debater Luc. You have been labelling everyone you disagree with as racists, white supremists, and Islamophobes.
And you’re worried about radicalising and antagonising people in their own lands? For goodness sake, this is Kiwiblog, not Al Jazeera or the BBC.
Watch out in case there’s pork-fat derivative in your Kit Kat.
Luc claims that anything he disagrees with is a distortion, and further, that anyone who writes something disagrees with is guilty of personal abuse. Odd, but back to the topic:
Your position is “The treatment of women in Islam is grossly offensive to our western values.”
My position is “The treatment of women in Islam is grossly offensive.”
“Roman Catholicism is an unbiblical, ungodly cult which leads millions to a Christless eternity.”
Fuck. You don’t say!! Man my dead mother must be really pissed off about now.
Kris K – you are as bad as MNIJ.
I am not trying to offend you or Roman Catholics, and I apologise if I have offended you.
It’s just that the teaching of the RC Church doesn’t line up with Biblical teaching, and I would be dishonest not to point that out, especially when Luc keeps grouping them together, and tainting Biblical Christianity with the actions of Rome.
Brian Smaller 2:12 pm,
Kris K – I don’t believe Islam is a satanic cult – to me it is just a political/religious ideology that actively preaches the death of people like me.
And I believe the motivation behind Islam is a Satanic hatred of ALL that is outside of Islam; especially Christianity and Judaism. Their hatred goes beyond the realms of natural dislike; there is a definite supernatural component to their hatred IMHO.
Ryan, just from what I understand (from news reports etc) the warning signs were all there prior to the event but were ignored largely out of ‘cultural sensitivity’. But also the reaction, in that the primary concern appears to be fear of an ‘anti-Islam’ backlash.
RightNow – Yeah – the feared anti-Islam backlash that never eventuated. More concern shown over a “possible” backlash than over the actual deed that might have provoked it.
I am not trying to offend you or Roman Catholics, and I apologise if I have offended you.
You should not apologise for offending me (actually you didn’t because all us deveil worshippers know the truth behind the Papacy anyway). Being offended is the price I gladly pay to live in a free society. Unfortunately, being ‘offended’ is used to justify censorship. Usually self-censorship as people become more and more afraid to say anything for fear of offending someone.
Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names can never hurt me – An oldy but a goody. I am more than happy for a Islamist to hurl abuse at little ol’ infidel me, but when he starts hurling bombs I get pissed off.
But if you do insist on picking our single verses in a lame attempt to discredit Christianity then why not use the New Testament, Matthew 27:5 (’Judas hung himself in the potters field’) as an endorsement of suicide.
It always amuses me how well some atheists know the Bible (or, certain bits of the Bible, anyway) ..
While people are debating some real or phantom menace (Russians, Muslims, whatever is fear of the month) there are a couple of things happening under your noses that don’t seem to concern anyone very much. Beware of the problems within.
There is a regular poster here who expresses hatred at a large proportion of the population, who tries to talk up revolt, who wants to oust all of our MPs etc etc and he gets a certain level of direct or tacit support on this blog. What if he managed to rev up some sort of group that was prepared to actually do something? Who speaks against him?
At the same time, possibly unrelated, there is a movement taking place that aims to change our democracy to make it easier for special interests with money and the already proven ability to influence significant numbers of people to push through issues that they want changed. Who is really behind all this? I don’t think it is the “Progressives” or the communists or the Muslims.
Keep worrying about the possible foreign threats if you like, but think about what is going on around you too.
Harriet Harman is to face prosecution after allegedly crashing her car while on a mobile phone.
Witnesses claimed that although Labour’s deputy leader stopped briefly after hitting the parked vehicle, she drove off without leaving details of her insurance company or her car’s registration.
But she will only be prosecuted for the driving offences, rather than leaving the scene, which could have left her with a possible six-month jail term.
When approached, she is alleged to have told a witness: ‘I’m Harriet Harman… you know where you can get hold of me.’
The 59-year-old is said to have struck the car in her constituency of Peckham, south east London, in July.
Earlier this month Miss Harman, who is also Leader of the Commons, was questioned by police about the incident and a file was sent to the Crown Prosecution Service.
Yesterday the CPS announced there was enough evidence to prosecute her.
She will be summoned to court by police, a method of bringing someone before a court without formally charging them.
She is accused of driving without due care and attention and using a hand-held mobile telephone.
Ryan, just from what I understand (from news reports etc) the warning signs were all there prior to the event but were ignored largely out of ‘cultural sensitivity’. But also the reaction, in that the primary concern appears to be fear of an ‘anti-Islam’ backlash.
I agree that that could be a problem. I don’t know the full details of the warning signs, so I can’t comment on the specific instance, but I see the concern.
If you had bothered to notice what I have said you would know that I have never supported Bradford, and I don’t think her bill end up doing the right thing.
But then you may know that and could be attacking to avoid the issue.
While people are debating some real or phantom menace (Russians, Muslims, whatever is fear of the month) there are a couple of things happening under your noses that don’t seem to concern anyone very much. Beware of the problems within.
…
Keep worrying about the possible foreign threats if you like, but think about what is going on around you too.
I think most regulars here are more than aware of REAL threats; both foreign and domestic, that attack our freedoms and way of life. This blog covers all possible scenarios, that’s for sure.
Remember many of the victims of the RC Crusades were actually Biblical Christians who refused to bow to the authority of Rome. Have a read of Fox’s Book of the Martyrs which highlights this.
Though I think it’s time to ignore mouthbreathers like Puke “RAM voter” Hansen and sillyold “mah cuzzie’s a Marxist” twat and start a new subject. Like just how well Modern Warfare 2’s done.
NEW YORK – The video game Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 is blasting its way into entertainment history.
After hauling in the biggest-ever first-day sales total last week, the game continues to break records.
Activision Blizzard, which released the game Nov. 10, said the latest game in its Call of Duty franchise made $550 ($750) million in worldwide sales during its first five days.
That would put it over the $500 million record set last year by Grand Theft Auto IV, from Take-Two Interactive Software.
Activision didn’t say how many units it has shipped. But Lazard Capital Markets analyst Colin Sebastian estimates the company sold between 8.5 million and 9 million copies.
I thought it was great until it went down into moronic conspiracy plotlines. Still, 90% right is excellent for the entertainment industry. Multiplayer’s decent too.
At the same time, possibly unrelated, there is a movement taking place that aims to change our democracy to make it easier for special interests with money and the already proven ability to influence significant numbers of people to push through issues that they want changed.
Yeah, we voted them out last election. Although the unions still have a pretty strong hold on the political landscape, I don’t expect the Labour party to be back in for a while. I hope not, after all – they bought one election and tried to buy another.
It always amuses me how well some atheists know the Bible (or, certain bits of the Bible, anyway) ..
Reading the Bible could’ve been what pushed them into agnosticism or atheism. I’m always amused by how many Christians haven’t read the Bible. But let’s not mention the Catholics.
Speaking of Catholics, Kris, I will reply to your most excellent comments on Belle de Jour. I’ve been busy refactoring some horrible code and as you can see I’ve only had time for snipey comments.
Arnaud Amalric, or Arnau Amalric, (died 1225) was a Cistercian monk remembered for giving advice during the Albigensian Crusade to a soldier wondering how to distinguish the Catholic friendlies from the Cathar enemies to just “Kill them all. For the Lord knows them that are His.”
In 1204, he was named a papal legate and inquisitor and was sent by Innocent III with Peter of Castelnau and Arnoul to attempt the conversion of the Albigensians. Failing in this, he distinguished himself by the zeal with which he incited men by his preaching to the crusade against these heretics.
Just another good Catholic following orders from the pope.
NB Albigensians were early Christians who refused the authority of Rome.
All I have seen here today, with the obvious and welcome exceptions, is Muslim bashing which in many countries would be illegal. I’m not sure about in this supposedly excessively PC land. I’ll send the link through to Joris and see what he says, although it seems that anonymity covers a multitude of sins. At least I put my money where my mouth is.
There has been not one constructive post from all you Islamophobes who tomorrow are going to cheer to get back the right to assault your kids.
A quick squizz through today’s news:
1. Prostitute customer and child sex addict, the PM of Italy, goes up in the polls in the heart of Catholicism.
2. The president of the ” Leader of the Free World” gloats over the impending revenge execution of a terrorist. So much for Christian values. Even more amusing is that a few more years in Indonesia and he undoubtedly would be Muslim. But not president, no doubt.
3. Israeli police arrest a Jewish woman at the Western Wall for wearing a prayer shawl. In Orthodox Judaism, evidently, this is the preserve of men only.
4. In Australia, a 12 year old aboriginal boy was dragged out of school and into court and about to be criminalised for receiving a stolen article valued at 30c. He was saved by the intervention of the State Commissioner.
5. In LA, a 10 year old girl was tasered in her own home at the behest of her mother. She was throwing a 10 year olds tantrum.
Speaking of Catholics, Kris, I will reply to your most excellent comments on Belle de Jour. I’ve been busy refactoring some horrible code and as you can see I’ve only had time for snipey comments.
Look forward to it, Malcolm.
Just so long as you don’t try “refactoring some horrible” Christian.
I’ve already been ‘refactored’, thanks very much.
PS I have read the entire Bible (generally RCs do not, and are actually quite ignorant of God’s word – they’re discouraged from doing so, and rely on priests and the pope for their latest ’spiritual’ insight).
Whoops, I notice a Muslim has joined the NZ army, should he be chucked out ?
Should all Muslims be chucked out of NZ ?
Amusing to notice the godly in the US whining about a US soldier being interned in Arlington, being good xtians they do not want a Muslim who died in action in Iraq being buried among xtians.
What a bunch of wimps so many of you are about members of a certain sect, if a bunch of Muslims swam ashore at the Hokianga they would be invited to be lunch.
You ask a question of me with three answers to choose from.
The obvious answer is C, something else, though on security and identification grounds I would ban women with faces hidden in burquas from driving, from accessing ATMs, clearing airports, from entering banks, or from appearing before courts.
My “something else” answer is:
We need to keep pressing Muslims to explain why they think women are so inferior that they can be regarded as a second class of people, why some Muslims think female human beings, unlike males, have no souls. We should ask why some Muslim nations deny girls education.
We need Muslims who wish to live in New Zealand to abjure any beliefs that women shouldn’t have equal rights with men, and to promise to adhere to our values and beliefs in regard to women and women’s standing in the community and to uphold our legal safeguards for women and their rights and place in society.
We need to press Muslims to explain why they think they should be allowed to proselytise in our countries, as in NZ prisons, while in many, perhaps most Muslim countries, Christians can be jailed or killed for trying to convert Muslims.
We need to ask why Muslims feel they can impose death sentences on citizens of Western countries for expressing their opinions, as in novelists and cartoonists.
We need to press Muslims to explain how Islam justifies holding out the “promise” of after-death rewards to suicide killers, specifically suicide bombers.
We need to ask Islamicists why some Muslims who migrate to Western countries then want to impose their own theological legal systems atop the legal systems of their host countries.
We need to keep gentle pressure on Muslims everywhere to examine and re-examine their religion and their tenets, so there will be the same evolution towards liberalism of Islam as has occurred in Christianity. The more extremist Muslim states are theocracies, with all the weakness this entails. If we can prod them into more open societies, they will heal themselves.
Repton: of your 3.25 post saying …”f any group is going to dominate the world in my life time, it’ll be the Chinese, not the Muslims..”
You compare a race or a nationality with a religion. Apples and oranges.
Accuses people here of ‘Muslim bashing’, and then goes on to bash what he (falsely) believes is representative of Judeo-Christian values. Of course, none of his five examples above were by Christians (RCs, yes) and he must have been scratching to find that Israeli example. Why don’t you find a few example of Muslim atrocities while your at it, Luc, you know, just to be balanced and all.
You really are a one eyed, hypocritical, head in the sand, bigot!
Must be nice in Luc’s little fantasy land. Meanwhile, back in the real world … (where most of the rest of us live)
Luc Hansen come on be fair, the Aboriginal kid was not kicked to death by the cops.
Hell he got off lightly, I’m sure if he had been a whiter shade of pale the book would have been thrown at him.
Luc Hansen at 3.51:”……slim bashing which in many countries would be illegal. I’m not sure about in this supposedly excessively PC land. I’ll send the link through to Joris and see what he says.”
Please teacher we were playing and they were mean to me.
Grumpy at 4.01:”… a bunch of Muslims swam ashore at the Hokianga they would be invited to be lunch…”
Hell Grumpy, if they had jumped off the dhow and sum ashore 150 years ago at Whangaroa they might invited for lunch rather than invited to lunch.
One thing that has not been discussed here about Islam is that it is a religion that is also – explicitly – a political project, in a way that modern Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism are not.
Most religions will wield political power if they have the votes in a democracy or influence in the elites of an undemocratic regime. But all of that is considered incidental to the pursuit of theological aims. State power can contribute to, but is not essential to, those aims.
But in Islam there is no separation of church and state. It never had a “render unto Ceaser….” moment, upon which a Reformation could build, let alone a New Testament break. Being an Islamic society does not just mean that a majority of the population are Muslim but being a society whose civil institutions are Muslin.
Several years ago the apostate Ibn Warraq made an important distinction: there are moderate Muslims, but no moderate Islam.
Around the world Islam, like Christianity, has adapted itself to local customs, from the Balkans to Indonesia. Those syncretist types of Islam endured for years, but they got their “moderate” character from the surrounding cultures, not from any particular school of Islam. All of the official schools of Islamic jurisprudence approve of sharia law and violent jihad (bad luck for the Sufis).
That’s rather a tough nut to crack if you’re a moderate Muslim who just wants to get on with life in the West, as most 1st generation Muslims did and most Muslims still do. It’s especially tough if you’re trying to stand up to such institutions made flesh in the form of men like Shaker Elsayed, leader of the Dar al Hijrah, one of America’s larger mosques, who told his coreligionists in blunt terms: “The call to reform Islam is an alien call”
It’s even tougher when a moderate Muslim looks around at the likes of Luc and MNIJ, and most of the Western political and media elites, and sees people who not only refuse to take on the Imams and their teachings, but actually pander to them and condemn those who do take them on as being “racist” (an epithet that won’t die despite being basely moronic), “Islamophobic”, and so forth.
You can just see Salman Rushdie – in hiding for a decade with an official fatwa from Ayatollah Khomeini on his head – being lectured by Luc that his fear of death is “Islamaphobic”.
Re Luc Hansen’s quote about the Aboriginal lad at 3.51 and Grump’s comment…
Luc in the context of the debate on Islam in this thread you point out an apparently nasty incident in a Western country.
This is fairly mild compared with the Pashtun warlords building up harems of little boys, and the Gulf states use of Pakistani boys as camel-race jockeys.
What is your point? Are you pointing to motes (dust particles) in Western eyes in response to beams in Muslim eyes?
phluc, you should really get your anger under control. Watch out tomorrow if you’re going to the march, I’ll keep an eye on the news for you, I expect you’re the sort of guy that attracts trouble.
Imagine, for a moment, that you have been elected Prime Minister of New Zealand and your party has an absolute majority. And what’s more — glory be! — you have discovered a long-lost twin brother who thinks exactly as you do. You appoint this twin-brother Minister of Foreign Affairs. Between the two of you, you will determine New Zealand’s immigration policies, citizenship tests, refugee intakes, foreign policy, and so on.
Sticking to the subject of “islam” (including New Zealand’s relationship to Islamic states and New Zealand’s acceptance and treatment of Islamic immigrants), what would you do with this power?
It’s even tougher when a moderate Muslim looks around at the likes of Luc and MNIJ, and most of the Western political and media elites, and sees people who not only refuse to take on the Imams and their teachings, but actually pander to them
Tom, you got +1 from me, but I wonder if that would have any benefit?
I’m not great student of human nature, but my feeling is that if the west pushes on the hardline Imams, they’ll just get more hardline. We could bomb them, sure, but as we’ve seen in Iraq that just drives more people to the religion and makes them more radical.
If I was in charge of the aid budget to an Islamic country, I’d say to them, hey, I’ll build and run a school. And I’ll fix your water supply so you’ve got clean water on tap. But on the condition that everyone comes to school — boys and girls.
[I'd also set up a TV room showing football, but that's 'cause I've been reading superfreakonomics ]
If Islam’s going to change, it won’t be through force; it’ll be through trade. We need to raise an educated generation that would rather trade with the west than bomb them.
Jack5 lived in Australia ?
Now I realise that schools today are pretty poor on history, but even you must have been taught about those good xtian Aussies holding drives to shoot Aboriginals for sport.
The Muslims were worse in NZ or Aussie, when was that ?
In answer to Repton’s further question at 4.42… What the fuck is this, 20 questions? Or are you some reincarnation of Socrates?
It sounds like you are asking what I would do if I was more or less a dictator of NZ.
Well first of all I’d have Philu subjected to shock treatment to bring him back to the real world… Then I would seek unification with Australia, because I think NZ is too small to have viable, high-living-standard modern economy.
Seriously, on Islam, and as you have suggested immigration, we will for a few minutes assume I don’t want merger with Australia and am the head honcho after a coup.
As Aotearoa big kahuna I would set an immigration policy heavily biased to economic needs. I would bias it heavily towards skilled, and preferably very highly skilled, highly educated migrants, with health that wasn’t going to impose a burden on the welfare/health system. I would seek a way to attract ambitious, work-oriented people rather than lifestylers.
I would link number of migrants closely to economic need. The economy would be much more highly export focused, and jobs and thus migrants would be linked closely to our export sector.
In the unlikely event that there was such a huge pool of such highly educated, highly skilled talent to draw on, I would require reasonable skill in English, the main language of the country. I would prefer a mix of sources to make assimilation easier. There would be tighter controls on immigration of extended family members. This is because though I favour an ethnically tolerant country, I favour this in parallel with assimilation, American style.
I wouldn’t tolerate migrants who threatened internal violence, be they Wahhabis, Doukhobors, neo-Nazis or whatever. I would rescind citizenship of naturalised citizens who failed to live law abiding lives.
Refugee intakes would be minimal – less than now. I would use foreign aid to help refugees in their own countries or in neighbouring countries of their own.
The highly elitist policy on migration, where the elite are the most skilled and most highly educated does not entail any special requirements for Islamic immigration.
If, instead of dictator, I were the Prime Minister as you suggest, with a twin brother as Minister of Foreign Affairs, I would still do my best to steer immigration to the upper end of skilled people, but of course heed political realities and demands. I would put MFAT on a tight leash and orient 98 per cent towards trade.
Within this political reality, I would try to encourage debate on migration policy, so the majority of citizens would have the chance to approve and medium and long-term ethnic change, and also to get a feeling for what change and rate of change was acceptable to citizens.
Sorry Repton, but addressing Islam would not be a dominating part of the Jack5 and Jack6 twinship administration.
I defend the right of Muslim countries to their religion and to self determination, which means we get out of there, stop killing or causing to be killed tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of Muslims in their own lands, all in the name of geo-political strategy that can be summed as: Why is our oil under their sand.
Or, in the case of Afghanistan (Pipelanistan), we are running our natural gas pipeline through your territory whether you like it or not.
I no more defend Muslim human rights abuses than those of China, Russia, or wherever. But demonising them, alienating them, killing them is not the path to enlightenment. Recognise their rights, protest by all means, but don’t use stereotypes to condemn over 1 billion people.
To the best of my knowledge, and correcting a rather excited comment the other day, European imperialism has blighted the Middle East since 1798. That’s 200 years, and we wonder why they haven’t developed more. They have just been too busy fighting us off.
All I’ve seen from Jack, Tom, RightNow, getstaffed, is their usual noise and filth. But if they have a better strategy, let’s hear it.
Grumpy at 4.50…sorry I’m not sure how we got to Ockers shooting Aboriginals for sport.
Luc Hansen at 5.24: you’re so down on European imperialism, perhaps you had better stuff off and give your chunk of the country back to the tangata whenua. The UN would probably give you a good job as a mediator in a Middle-East country. Go for it.
@getstaffed 2:25: Luc claims that anything he disagrees with is a distortion, and further, that anyone who writes something disagrees with is guilty of personal abuse
To the best of my knowledge, and correcting a rather excited comment the other day, European imperialism has blighted the Middle East since 1798. That’s 200 years, and we wonder why they haven’t developed more.
Yeah, that’s what I hear them all complaining about in Dubai.
Technically, I think progress in the Muslim world hit the wall in the wake of the Mongol invasions. Before then the medieval Muslim world was quite advanced, made brilliant progress in the fields of astronomy, mathematics (algebra anyone), medicine and political philosophy.
The Mongol invasions effectively split the old Abbasid caliphate into a Mongol (Ilkhanid) then Persian (12er Shi’te) area, based in Khurasan, and a more Sunni Turco-Arab area. The increase in military conflict caused a massive diversion of resources away from learning and culture. In Salah al-Din’s time, Egypt supported about 5000 professional cavalry (ghilman, or toassin). The 12th-13th C saw an expansion in hospitals and colleges (madras). By the Mameluke era in the 15th C, Egypt was supporting 40,000 professional cavalry and the taxation was oppressive. But such military expansion was necessary to confront the Mongol khanates.
Within that context however, the Muslim world still threatened eastern Europe. Hungary fell after Mohacs in the early 16th C, whilst major expeditions were still organised into the 17th C against Vienna (and the Hapsburg empire). The relationship between the Muslim world of the NE and Christian Europe is complex and multi-faceted. It is rather simplistic to label one side as more imperialistic that the other.
Don’t worry, I’m just as down on Greek imperialism, Roman Imperialism, Ottoman imperialism, Chinese imperialism…but the most recent is, of course, European and I am European. And I might say, I’m damned glad to be European after what we have been up to for the last few centuries!
Still waiting to see what you want to do about Islam that’s different to what I advocate, which is, first and foremost, freedom from us.
I defend the right of Muslim countries to their religion and to self determination
I certainly don’t. If another culture or nation stones women to death for silly reasons or threatens the lives of others then they must be stopped. And if the coercion they require to stop is death then so be it.
Where we have the power we should sort this behaviour out. Just because it doesn’t directly affect me doesn’t make it acceptable.
The argument of being able to find crimes by others is rather silly, if a criminal identifies a wrong by another, it does not make either wrong ok. And if you say why fix some of the world instead of all of the world then you will never fix any of it.
Acceptance of barbarism is not cultural tolerance, it is turning the other cheek out of cowardice and indecision.
Luc, I just can be bothered with your hatred and bigotry. At one stage I took you seriously (even if not agreeing), but not now.
If anyone who expresses an opinion that you disagree with with to be lambasted with insults (c.f. “All I’ve seen from Jack, Tom, RightNow, getstaffed, is their usual noise and filth”, “The white supremacists here…”) then your ranting will just have to go unanswered.
Here’s a suggestion: Open your other eye and find fault where there is fault to be found (eg Islam’s mandated treatment of women) and then perhaps, just perhaps, you’ll be taken more seriously.
“If anyone who expresses an opinion that you disagree with with to be lambasted with insults (c.f. “All I’ve seen from Jack, Tom, RightNow, getstaffed, is their usual noise and filth”, “The white supremacists here…”) then your ranting will just have to go unanswered.”
Don’t be such a fucking wimp. Go after these arrogant sneering condescending bastards. They have no shame. You want them to keep winning? No. So go after them.
“..Last time you showed your face in public I hear you had to scuttle off like a cowardly rat..”
do tell..!
Short memory phil? Read about it here. You will recall that you’re the ‘obnoxious ass‘ in the story.
The story concludes:
The reaction from aforementioned obnoxious ass was simply spectacular. He stood up called us all racists and anti-semites, forgetting that he had just 5 minutes before been telling how evil the Jewish State was for killing innocent Palestinians. He then stormed off muttering and screaming to resounding applause and high fives from all the rest of us.
Smuggling into the Gaza Strip from Egypt beneath the Philadelphi Corridor has returned to the busy levels that prevailed before Operation Cast Lead last winter, The Jerusalem Post has learned. Estimates of how many tunnels are now functioning range from several hundred to 1,000, although the most authoritative figures indicate that between 350 and 500 are currently operating. The IDF claimed to have destroyed about 300 tunnels duringCast Lead. Israel has long asserted that the Egyptians could put an end to the entire smuggling industry within 24 hours if they wanted to, using military obstructions along the length of the Philadelphi Corridor.
Israel will object to the international community. That objection will be ignored. Then the IAF will have to launch one of their periodic anti-tunnel bombing raids. That’s how it’s been since the end of Cast Lead, as far back as March: rocket fire that eventually hit a synagogue, followed by a complaint to the UN, followed by nothing, followed by the inevitable. And when it happens again I have no doubt that the international community will react with exactly the self-reflection and fairness that we’ve all come to expect.
Don’t be such a fucking wimp. Go after these arrogant sneering condescending bastards. They have no shame. You want them to keep winning? No. So go after them.
*sigh* You’re right of couse red. It’s just sometimes I don’t have the time and/or energy to fight defensive battles, and in Luc’s case he is well read on Middle East history coupled with a creative imagination and a well honed revisionist translation ability. Jack5 continues to knowledgeably push back against his hatred, which is good.
getstaffed said ” Here’s a suggestion: Open your other eye and find fault where there is fault to be found (eg Islam’s mandated treatment of women) and then perhaps, just perhaps, you’ll be taken more seriously.”
Open your own eyes and actually read what I write. Above you will find that I said find all religion foolish – I should have added tragic. I said, or thought I said, I dislike and reject much of Islam’s practices, not just the treatment of women. I wish they would disown the violence inherent in the Koran, but most Muslims do by their actions, anyway. I do not demonise over 1b people for the actions of a few. I support military action against Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups. I do not support military action against civilians.
I repeat, I uphold equal human rights for all, including the freedom from attack from their parents for Kiwi kids, and including Muslims.
C’mon Philu, have a laugh at yourself occasionally.
From your reported performance at the outing (Hurf Durf’s 7.11 link), what would happen if you were caught short at a border post between Israel and Palestine? You would pee yourself while you jigged from one leg to the other trying to decide whether to go to the Palestine WC or the Israel one.
I said, or thought I said, I dislike and reject much of Islam’s practices, not just the treatment of women
No Luc. You are a terminal apologist for Islam’s heinous value system. Only when cornered in a rate like a cage you do quickly jumble together a fictitious ’statement of belief’ like your 7:37 comment citing what you dislike (presumably hoping no one will actually read it…). That’s your ‘Personal Brand’ pal. Have the guts to admit it. I guess you’ll call this a tanget. Go right ahead.
getstaffed, you have simply fulfilled my expectations. Well done.
Now I think I have sussed out all the Muslim bashers here today and the only conclusion I can come to is that you are all seriously deluded. You equate my defence of Arabs and Muslim human rights, which we advocate for ourselves, to support for all they do. That is distortion, writ large.
Just what do you have against my suggestion that we get out of their lands? It would be instructive to hear.
But I won’t hold my breath. You and the others I have mentioned just don’t present a serious argument. It’s all totally destructive; nothing at all constructive.
Except Sonny. His option is genocide. At least he is upfront and doesn’t appear to cower behind a pseudonym.
Hurf, your point? Is it that because Hamas fire rockets, this justifies wholesale slaughter of civilians? Please answer.
By the way, I just watched a news item that showed Palestinians in Gaza stocking up on tinned and preserved food in anticipation of the next Israeli onslaught. They say they got caught by surprise last time, but they are already resigned to the next massacre. I wonder what Israel’s excuse will be this time, not that it really matters. Impunity comes with US protection in the Security Council.
Anyone want to change the subject and get back to where we started, morning sex?
Maori Party co-leader Pita Sharples appeared to today indicate Mr Harawira would be allowed to stay in the party, saying it had coped with disagreements before.
Who would have thought: A racist man being given quarter by a racist party.
Pita: This is not a about a ‘disagreement’. This is about you condoning blatant racism from one of your representatives. Hang your head in shame.
Luc, I just can’t be bothered with your hatred and bigotry. At one stage I took you seriously (even if not agreeing), but not now.
Indeed. Soon after Luc turned up in early October, quoting Fisk, Finklestein, et al, I commented that:
I think that you’ve attempted to indulge in their debating style – the misdirections, the throwaway soundbites, the refusal to argue on point, and of course the constant implication that your debating opponent operates from the most base of motives while indulging in special pleading about the need for civility.
But given your sad attempts here it would seem that you just don’t have the chops to pull it off.
And it has not changed. The lawyer F.E Smith – mostly known on this site for his passionate defense of the current criminal justice system (e.g not exactly a fire-breathing right-winger) – took Luc to the woodshed a few nights ago over his puddle-deep knowledge of the last 1000 years of Islamic history and the Crusades. I believe he applied the word “bigot”, which seemed entirely earned.
Today we witnessed the hilarity of the Pilger-driven “pipeline conspiracy” of 2001 – an idea so detached from reality that it never even gained traction in far-left groups inclined to believe it was possible.
But when Luc’s under debating pressure he’ll pull anything out of his arse.
From now on I’ll stick with mockery:
“The president of the ” Leader of the Free World” gloats over the impending revenge execution of a terrorist.”
Racist.
“Let’s ignore sex with young girls. Many many countries allow sex nowadays with girls as young as 13″
Misogynist – at a minimum.
“…I’m going to forward your comment to the Human Rights Commission for their opinion”
Liberal Progressive.
What I am defending is the Muslims South Africans right to work through their own issues, in their own lands.
Bold Defender of Global Human Rights.
And of course, there’s always the idea of Gazans not supporting Hamas thuggery – that they’re just “hostages” of Zionist aggression. Bollocks writ large. Always conveniently ignoring that the “mass slaughter” of Cast Lead was a few thousand out of a million people.
Billions of dollars of Western aid to “rebuild” – for what? So they could spend all that money on dozens of missiles? Imagine where Hamas would be if it weren’t for their Western water carriers.
Read the lines, Hone has leverage. He will not go independent as I thought.
Hone will crash anyone who stops him fro Supreme Leader of the Maori Party.
Little deal with Tainui and Hone will be President of Aotearoa.
In your dreams HARAWIRA, you racist germ
At least he is upfront and doesn’t appear to cower behind a pseudonym
Luc, care to post up your full name, address and phone number? Or are you hypocritically cowering behind a pseudonym while attempting to belittle those that choose to keep their private details private?
Hint: ‘Luc Hansen’ doesn’t appear in Whitepages and your blog doesn’t have any personal details, save for an email address of luchansen@live.com. In the spirit of equal disclosure, mine is getstaffed@live.com , and my photo is here
Steve – yes. Hone just says, rather undiplomatically, what most of the racist Maori party members think, but won’t say. At least he doesn’t try to cloak his racism is delicate political prose. Yellow bag has yummy Boerewors
A bit late in the day to add some “breaking news”, but I couldn’t hold back…
Climate scam busted wide open!
Someone has hacked/released 62MB of private correspondence and files from the climate alarmists at East Anglia’s CRU.
It was uploaded to a Russian FTP server, and it is spreading around file-sharing sites.
Now their scheming and data-fudging is no longer hearsay. You can see them discussing it.
Phool, go fuck yourself.
Devil dodgers can do the same, you wankers need a room to spit the religious bullshit into.
Yeah you you you.
Never has there been so much bloodshed as in the kingdom of God.
Stick it where the Global Sun don’t shine
The director of Britain’s leading Climate Research Unit, Phil Jones, has told Investigate magazine’s TGIF Edition tonight that his organization has been hacked, and the data flying all over the internet appears to be genuine.
In an exclusive interview, Jones told TGIF, “It was a hacker. We were aware of this about three or four days ago that someone had hacked into our system and taken and copied loads of data files and emails.”
From Hurf: Always conveniently ignoring that the “mass slaughter” of Cast Lead was a few thousand out of a million people.
So Hurf, what’s your definition of mass slaughter? Is 3000 dead, out of around 320 million, in the Twin Towers mass slaughter? Was 168 dead in the Oklahoma bombing , mass slaughter? Hell, was 5 killed in the Bain family in Dunedin mass slaughter? In my book, yes to all. Maybe to you only if you were one of the victims. It’s always just so much easier when it never happens to us, isn’t it?
But it is refreshing that you do see the Zionist aggression that is always evident. I think, in fact, that that term is becoming increasingly passe. Over 50% of non-Arab Israelis are Israel born. I have no idea of the proportion of Palestinians outside Israel born since 1948, or even 1967 (Khalid Meshal vividly remembers the trek into the West Bank from his centuries old village to escape Israeli bullets), but it must be much, much higher. These future generations will one day usher in peace and coexistence and I wish them all well.
From Tom: The lawyer F.E Smith – mostly known on this site for his passionate defense of the current criminal justice system (e.g not exactly a fire-breathing right-winger) – took Luc to the woodshed a few nights ago over his puddle-deep knowledge of the last 1000 years of Islamic history and the Crusades.
Yep, too many wines that night and I got sprung good and proper. But what struck me is that that is all your passionate lawyer got me on: a misspeak, as Hillary would say. I feel pretty good about that
Bigot: from Wikipedia “The correct use of the term requires the elements of obstinacy, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing devotion.” If advocacy of equal human rights for all, including mad fundamentalist Pastors and Mullahs, so be it. But maybe you should look in the mirror. it’s called projection.
And Tom, yes, I supported the right of South Africans to work through their own problems, in their own lands. The majority South Africans. Like 30,000,000 to 3,000,000 majority. Yes, black South Africans.
getstaffed, don’t you worry, I am sure if you were a debt collector you would find me, no problem. If you really want reassurance about my bona fides, ask DPF to contact me so he can then set your little mind at rest while retaining security for my family.
National Examiner – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
17 Oct 2009 … The National Examiner is a supermarket tabloid owned by the American Media Corporation. Like other tabloids, its contents have often come …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Examiner – Cached – Similar –
You claim to be posting under your own name, while hiding behind a pseudonym. You are the only commenter I’ve seen here at Kiwiblog who’s lied like this.
Is 3000 dead, out of around 320 million, in the Twin Towers mass slaughter? Was 168 dead in the Oklahoma bombing , mass slaughter? Hell, was 5 killed in the Bain family in Dunedin mass slaughter? In my book, yes to all. Maybe to you only if you were one of the victims. It’s always just so much easier when it never happens to us, isn’t it?
Considering that most of the people involved in that were killed, whereas most of the people in Gaza were not killed, those are three pretty bad examples.
And if by “Zionist aggression,” you mean “Israel’s right to self-defence” then yes I do see it.
Over 50% of non-Arab Israelis are Israel born. I have no idea of the proportion of Palestinians outside Israel born since 1948, or even 1967 (Khalid Meshal vividly remembers the trek into the West Bank from his centuries old village to escape Israeli bullets), but it must be much, much higher. These future generations will one day usher in peace and coexistence and I wish them all well.
Blaming dem immigrunts? How progressive.
while retaining security for my family.
How cute, Puke wants to retain security for his family. Of course, people in Beersheba aren’t afforded that luxury because they’re racist imperialist Zionists.
That everyone, including women and children, in Gaza were a target?
In a warzone, potentially everyone is a target. The IDF’s attempts to minimise civilian casualties in an Egyptian-created ghetto are admirable and should be congratulated.
The people in Beersheba could try what we are doing over here – return land to the indigenous people.
Oh yes? Does that include the land on which your house is situated?
And, of course, after you show them the deeds you’ll more than approve when the Army of the People of the Land start firing missiles at your house because, after all, they’re fighting for justice!
Hurf said: The IDF’s attempts to minimise civilian casualties in an Egyptian-created ghetto are admirable.
Whatever delusion takes your fancy. Opening the war by killing traffic cops and kids leaving school. The modern napalm, white phosphorous, used against schools, hospitals, UN buildings. Have you actually read any of the Goldstone report? It takes a strong stomach.
Gaza has actually existed since time immemorial. Modern Egypt has never claimed ownership of the land or granted the people Egyptian citizenship. Unlike Jordan and the West Bank, it never annexed Gaza after 1948.
And unlike Israel and Palestinians, we have arrived at a peaceful process of reconciliation and reparation with Maori, so long as we continue that process for as long as it takes.
And also unlike you, I don’t see the issue of historic Palestine as an either/or scenario. History is replete with examples of former bitter enemies reconciling.
The Goldstone Report? Sorry, I know agitprop when I see it. And considering the UN is made up of third world shitholes, much like “Palestine,” I have no truck with such organisations.
Yep, too many wines that night and I got sprung good and proper. But what struck me is that that is all your passionate lawyer got me on: a misspeak, as Hillary would say. I feel pretty good about that
Oh please. Smith referenced merely the last of several of your ignorant rants about Crusades vs. Jihad and the 1095 date, all of which were equally hysterical in the style of your hero Fisk. Each of those were rants several sentences long. A “misspeak” is when a word is misplaced (someone meant Iran not Iraq).
But why should I be surprised. I wasted time checking one of your rebuttal links to a story in the JPost and I wrote up the results last night in a quick post. But since you seem to read little of your material or links, let alone the responses, I’ll put it up to you again.
The enduringamerica link is about exposing the story of a rape-before-execution sanction, supposedly issued by some key religious adviser in Iran – as having started as a piece of black comedy satire on an Iranian website.
The JPost story is a reporter talking by telephone to a member of the Iranian Basiji militia, who had just been released from jail for having set free two kids – a 13-year-old boy and a 15-year-old girl – who had been arrested during those protests against the rigged elections in June. He talks about the rapes he has performed.
Even though Ryan provided the link to the latter story I figure I have to tell you the gist because if you had actually read the article you would have realised that they’re about two completely different stories. I’ve bolded that last as an additional attention getter for you
Israel retains its current borders and also absorbs the Golan Heights. Gaza is annexed by Egypt, West Bank by Jordan. Both countries take over administration and security of their new territories. Egyptian and Jordanian security forces and police take over. Direct rule by central authorities is enacted. The old leadership is purged, the terrorists among them arrested and dealt with, and they inject (with US, EU and Israeli financial support if proven to be 100% abiding by these rules) economic and infrastructure development into the new territories. Families shown to have no connection to Pali terrorism given financial incentives to move into Egypt or Jordan proper to reduce the population density. Local government gradually enacted if extremism seen to be properly expunged.
These are just off the top of my head. If done properly, Israel/Palestine won’t be an issue in five years.
Thanks Tom. I stand by my postings except for that one sentence. Tell FE Smith to by all means return. There are three sides to every story, as we know. I only ever lay claim to one.
And we are supposed to believe that a Basiji militia member just happened to contact a JPost reporter, or vice versa.
You may believe in fairies, I don’t.
I believe lots of bad things about Muslim and Iranian practices but nothing emanating from JPost. Did it make Haaretz?
The back/front cover opens out to show a picture of the Earth, complete with hurricanes and Arctic ice as shown in the first photo, which is from the Amazon press release. One hurricane and plenty of Arctic ice.
Now the great profit Algore (All credits be to him)™ must have decided that the photo needed some work before the public release, so out came photoshop and, as shown in the second photo, lots of scary hurricanes and, hey, where’s the Arctic ice?!? BTW, hurricanes are at a 30 years low positively confounding those who claim they are somehow connect to CO2 emmissions.
The great profit Algore (All credits be to him)™ is a fraud, a charlatan and is completely bereft of integrity.
There are just a couple of problems with your scenario, Hurf.
First, there is the overwhelming international consensus of the two state solution based on the June 4 1967 armistice lines.
Second, Egypt has never shown any interest in annexing Gaza, and Jordan has agreed to borders with Israel and relinquished all claims to the West Bank.
I am not getting into the rest of your post because the points I have raised make them irrelevant.
My final point is this: Palestinians, in spite of the constant Israeli occupation, dispossession and oppression, are hanging in there. It took Maori in NZ a long time to start to get redress and I think you will find Palestinians just as resilient.
I’m basing it on what’s most practical and sensible, not on what’s “fair” or “just.”
As for the Palis, 12.26am sums it up best. They’re only “hanging in there” because Israel has chosen to exercise phenomenal restraint and haven’t kicked all of them out of there for being incapable of governing them sensibly and because Egypt and Jordan has seen what happens when a shitload of Palis move in (see Lebanon and Jordan in the 1970s) to know they want them to keep the fuck away. So the best thing for both? Keep them locked up in a pair of ghettoes. That’s politics for you.
getstaffed, what is the basis for your assertion and straw man argument?
This is from Pew research:
Is the frequency of hurricanes increasing?
Globally (not just in the North Atlantic), there is an average of about 90 tropical storms every year. According to the 2007 Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC-AR4), globally “[t]here is no clear trend in the annual numbers [i.e. frequency] of tropical cyclones.”
However, in the North Atlantic there has been a clear increase in the frequency of tropical storms and major hurricanes. From 1850-1990, the long-term average number of tropical storms was about 10, including about 5 hurricanes. For the period of 1998-2007, the average is about 15 tropical storms per year, including about 8 hurricanes. This increase in frequency correlates strongly with the rise in North Atlantic sea surface temperature, and recent peer-reviewed scientific studies link this temperature increase to global warming.
There is an ongoing scientific debate about the link between increased North Atlantic hurricane activity and global warming. The 2007 report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change rates the probability of such a link as “more likely than not.” (end quote)
If Al Gore presented “more likely than not” as a cast iron certainty then he is certainly in the wrong. But so are you, it seems.
The IPCC say there is no direct link between specific weather events and global warming but, over time, trends emerge consistent with global warming projections.
South African whites tried that and look what happened there.
Israel has not exercised “phenomenal restraint” as you say; rather, it is constrained by the international community from completing the ethnic cleansing/genocide it really wishes for. And that constraint will always be a constant.
The periodic massacres of Lebanese and Palestinians Israel is so fond of will only serve to increase the resolve of the international community and when the US finally swings into line, Israel will have to get real.
However, I expect a lot more Arab blood to flow before this is resolved, so sad.
Israel is not South Africa, no matter how much you progressives want it to be.
Also completing something implies that it has started. I hope you have some evidence for that phenomenal claim or I shall be forwarding your comments to the Human Rights Commission.
November 20th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Just a quick couple of shots before the mayhem begins.
The Jabiru is Australia’s only native stork species-
#1
http://chthoniid.zenfolio.com/img/v8/p225019018-5.jpg
#2
http://chthoniid.zenfolio.com/img/v6/p122250670-5.jpg
Enjoy your coffees/beverage of choice, and hopefully a decent Friday
November 20th, 2009 at 8:17 am
Phil Goff is correct in addressing the Reserve Bank’s statutorily imposed obsession with inflation. The exchange rate is killing kiwi businesses and we will never get out of debt unless something is done.
New consensus anyone?
English should also stop telling lies. Labour drove crown debt DOWN not up.
November 20th, 2009 at 8:19 am
Dear Santa
This year for Christmas I would like an ignore function. I promise I’ve been good.
Ta
Hollywood.
November 20th, 2009 at 8:21 am
Remind me again how much we paid for that train set Micky.
November 20th, 2009 at 8:23 am
Dear Santa, here is my list.
It’s a hit list.
November 20th, 2009 at 8:36 am
those cheating Frogs .. le hand of Henry”
November 20th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Go to the Greens website, key into the search bar ‘religion of peace’, and read all the lovely things those nit-wits have to say about Islam.
GO British National Party!!!
November 20th, 2009 at 8:41 am
Copenhagen is DOA. President Zero can’t get support back home just yet and needs another six months. Zero needs to show Congress a Coalition of the Stupid of which NZ will be a member.
National are directly supporting Zero. (This is what Zero and Key talk about over breakfast even if it is for 4 minutes.) National’s drive to get ETS through is led by Nick Smith who is running secret deals to get the numbers. Secret deals which invlove massive transfer of weath from taxpayers to a small number of families. (Forget iwis it is the people at the top that control and benefit from the Treaty settlements)
Climate change it pollutes and corrupts everyone it touches.
November 20th, 2009 at 8:43 am
Great photos Chthoniid
The phool is going to be green with envy
Hopefully he will spew up his lentil brekkie.
November 20th, 2009 at 8:57 am
Greens formula:
Western values = evil
Everything else = good
November 20th, 2009 at 9:00 am
Listening to Obama and his counterpart in China this week it was hard to tell who was Hu.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:07 am
From Garth George’s column in the Herald yesterday: pretty much spot on.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:10 am
Chthoniid – I am not sure what type of bird that is but it should be called an ETS Bird – it comes with a huge bill.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Yes Tauhei, you could tell there was a strong Bond between them. Treasury Bond that is…
November 20th, 2009 at 9:21 am
hey mickey, i like how you use the old left wing trick of speaking for “kiwis”.
the exchange rate is killing kiwi businesses?? do you mean exporters?? cause Dime the importer is a happy chappy!
i think we have both made the same posts before?!?! is the 20th of every month “the exchange rate is too high” day?
imo 65 cents would be nice for both importers and exporters…
November 20th, 2009 at 9:22 am
A “finely tuned intuition” which means I don’t have to give you any actual data, I’m just right.
Try that with an academic paper and see how far you get.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:24 am
I think he might be exaggerating about the fineness of the tuning of his intuition.
Don’t tell me I’m wrong. I have a nose for these things.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Swiftman
The problem is that in their niavite’ the greens and their accolytes haven’t read the ‘fine print’ which is that UNLESS (and only unless) you are a muslim, when the take-over has occured, irrespective of how nice and supportive you have been towards islam at any point in the past, you are in line for extermination.
It’s always the fine print which is the important stuff – ‘the devil is in the detail’; the Greens simply don’t want to know, evidently believing that giaia will protect them, no matter what.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Herald Editorial: Major pitfalls in making votes binding
November 20th, 2009 at 9:37 am
Islam is quite explicit. You are either a Muslim, a slave or dead. Ask any Arab Christian or Zorastrian how much fun it is living as a dhimmi in a Muslim majority country.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:37 am
Who’s going to be marching tomorrow on the March For Democracy?
November 20th, 2009 at 9:38 am
My finely tuned BS alarm is going beep beep as well.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:41 am
Once again the slogans are simplistic and misleading. It isn’t actually a March for Democracy. It is a:
March For A Different Sort of Democracy Where Different (Unelected) People Will Have More Influence
November 20th, 2009 at 9:56 am
I wasn’t saying thhe March is BS… I was just trying to get a feel for people’s thoughts. I think I’ll be going, though….
November 20th, 2009 at 9:57 am
A quick roundup of news:
1. JK reverting to the old Tina argument, you know,the old whore who rose to fame as a pretty youngster with Maggie Thatcher and who we all though had gone into a well deserved retirement. JK also complained, with stunning insight, that it is a complex problem. Well, currently we resolve a complex problem with a simple solution – the OCR. JK would do well to study this Menckenism: “For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.”
2. Blair officially goneburger from the EU presidency role. Just deserts? Maybe not quite yet. Kick him out of the ME would be a big plus.
3. Talking about the ME, Bibi doing a Blair and talking up a non-existent threat from Iran. Pretty risible stuff from the leader of country with enough legal and extra-legal weaponry to wipe out half the world.
4. Some REALLY good news: evolution, including human evolution, is alive and well and ongoing. But don’t hold your breath for any
more news soon
5. A question really: is the University of Auckland going to be shamed into sacking Witi as they would any student who tried the same thing in a paper?
Gotta go – grizzly baby
November 20th, 2009 at 9:57 am
It was interesting to hear Jolisa Gracewood on National Radio this morning. She said the 16 pieces of plagiarised work in Witi Ihimaera’s Trowenna Sea – which the author has been saying amount to only 0.4% of the work in an effort to dampen down the controversy – were only what she had identified when the issue of the Listener concerned went to press. She has subsequently found others, but didn’t say how many.
I will read this week’s issue of the Listener with great interest. And I await the University of Auckland’s backflip on its so-far inadequate sanctioning of Ihimaera’s actions.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:58 am
I’ll be particpating in the Roll Over and go Back to Sleepathon for Democracy Dave.
I’d do the same if some Hollywood B actor who just happens to have been born here knocked on my door as well.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:59 am
Thanks for that opinion Pete. As usual, its worthless left wing bullshit.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Here’s one for me old mate redbaiter -
“…anchor Gregg Jarrett waxed on about the crowds former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin had been getting on her book tour. Except it turned out the footage Fox was using at the time was from the 2008 campaign.”
Who woulda thort it – FOX News lying? Where will it end?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/11/fox-news-rolls-wrong-video-of-palin-crowds-will-heads-roll-too.html
November 20th, 2009 at 10:03 am
5. A question really: is the University of Auckland going to be shamed into sacking Witi as they would any student who tried the same thing in a paper?
Well, no student is ’sacked’.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Hone Harawira must have woke up on Sunday and thought how fantastic that All Whites were going to South Africa.
And speaking of All Whites the All Blacks forwards named to play England are All White – that hasn’t happened for awhile
November 20th, 2009 at 10:06 am
I support the democracy we have Red (with some improvements). A democracy where people and parties with views right across the spectrum have a reasonably equal opportunity to take part. I support the right of Act and the Greens and all other parties to have a say.
What sort of democracy do you want?
November 20th, 2009 at 10:06 am
I think the lefties’ love of muslims is purely because they (lefties and muslims) are anti-christian, and this is why I will always think they’re a bunch of hypocrites. With regard to freedom of religion they don’t believe in it at all.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:10 am
i’m gonna go and watch it…
to see the eyes/faces of the rabidly pro-smacking crowd..
(the gimlet-eyed ones..)
i guess the usual suspects will be there..
the destiny church..?..’bishop brian’..?
i wouldn’t be surprised if not many turned up..
it has all the feel/dynamics of an anti-climax/a ‘fizzer’..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 20th, 2009 at 10:11 am
“I support the democracy we have Red”
Yes, because there is no democracy. A choice between tweedle dumb and tweedle dumber. Progressive party A or Progressive Party B. You’re a socialist totalitarian. Of course you support it.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:14 am
“I think the lefties’ love of muslims is purely because they (lefties and muslims) are anti-christian,”
Partly right. The left’s strategy is to break us up into small groups and while we argue amongst ourselves over trifles, they beaver away in the background on their master plan.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Rightnow, do you think there are no leftie Christians? And no Muslim righties?
Here I am often put in the left box, although the majority of my views match those of DPF who claims to be right.
I am not anti-Christian.
I am not pro-Muslim (I don’t know any Muslims let alone love any).
I believe in freedom of religion and in freedom of non-religion.
You seem to believe in putting all those groups you disagree with in one box. Is that being simple, simplistic or simply a shotgun putdown?
November 20th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Red, believe me, leftists are always breaking up into small groups and arguing over trifles.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:20 am
The All Whites to SA, I noticed some yank living in NZ wrote to a newspaper complaining about the white power signs at the cake tin.
Good thing that sensitive septic did not come across the black is thicker than blood signs.
Jeez, I wish people would find out the bloody context of those signs before whining about them.
Heh, wonder how the white power signs will go in SA when the NZ soccer team is playing.
White is thicker than blood ?
November 20th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Hasselblad introduces 50 megapixel camera holy crap
Is this what they strap onto satellites?
November 20th, 2009 at 10:20 am
“Swiftman the infidel (89) Vote: Add rating 6 Subtract rating 3 Says:
November 20th, 2009 at 8:57 am
Greens formula:
Western values = evil
Everything else = good”
Just thought I’d mention it.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:21 am
True to form Red you avoid saying what “democracy” you want but sticking to your usual baseless attacks. You seem to be too busy (for the past ten years) attacking what you don’t like so you don’t think about what you do like. Or you haven’t the courage to come out and say what it is you want.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:21 am
# RightNow (421) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 3 Says:
November 20th, 2009 at 10:06 am
I think the lefties’ love of muslims is purely because they (lefties and muslims) are anti-christian, and this is why I will always think they’re a bunch of hypocrites. With regard to freedom of religion they don’t believe in it at all.
*********************************************
Interesting POV – a belief in religious freedom allied with hatred of another religion. To me, it’s just racism wrapped up in in plain packaging.
It’s not religion, stupid, it’s human rights (Hat tip to Bill)
November 20th, 2009 at 10:23 am
“You seem to believe in putting all those groups you disagree with in one box. Is that being simple, simplistic or simply a shotgun putdown?”
- whereas Pete is offering 3 boxes
November 20th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Obama claims to have saved many many jobs in the US with his stimulus programs, but has been caught out.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/jobs-saved-created-congressional-districts-exist/story?id=9097853
November 20th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Luc Hansen – not sure I get your last post. Are you sayig that being anti-Islam is a cover for racism?
November 20th, 2009 at 10:25 am
He could always put his own explanation on it Patrick. If he has one to offer. Or his he also too busy attacking to have thought that far?
November 20th, 2009 at 10:27 am
Yep, what we need is direct democracy in NZ, then we can all vote for a 2% total tax take.
Of course libertarians bludging at our universities would then whine that the tax rate needs to be raised to pay for their education.
NZ, our motto, let hypocrisy reign.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:28 am
No, Hassleblad (or ‘blad to afficiendos) is merely a medium-format system. It uses a large sensor than SLRs (36×24). The advantage of such systems is typically that they create images that can be printed to a very large size, free of noise (the pixel-sensors can be larger). The catch is that the cameras aren’t very portable, and are often restricted to studio type settings.
Full-frame DSLRs are already operating at 21-25MP, so 40-50 on medium format is fine. You need a lot of computing power however.
Note that just adding more mega-pixels has effects on image quality. The individual pixel sensors have to get smaller, which means the image has more ‘noise’ (random colour artifacts). This effect can be reduced by applying a stronger AA filter in front of the sensor. But the filtering of the noise also reduces the captured detail. Some of the latest APS DSLRs that are at 15-18MP are in fact, worse off for noise than older models.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:34 am
mmmmm… trifles…..
November 20th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Pete, actually I know a lot of christians that are politically oriented to the left and who have no hesitation in engaging with muslims and other religions (my parents are prime examples). It is possible to have many viewpoints and still reconcile them, I do it myself with my parents’ christian beliefs against my atheism.
I maintain though that irrational anti-christian sentiment is rife in hardline lefties.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Luc,”interesting POV – a belief in religious freedom allied with hatred of another religion. To me, it’s just racism wrapped up in in plain packaging.
It’s not religion, stupid, it’s human rights (Hat tip to Bill)”
I don’t really think they believe in religious freedom at all, and that is my point. It’s not human rights, it’s hypocrisy. (Hats off to (Roy) Harper)
November 20th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Oh just medium format allright then. Who the hell would use one of these things?
November 20th, 2009 at 10:44 am
” me, it’s just racism wrapped up in in plain packaging. ”
Of course you would see it that way, but that’s because you’re an indoctrinated fool falling over yourself in frantic and mindless obeisance to PC Progressive doctrine, and hence too stupid to know the difference between race and religion.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:49 am
RightNow nope dear boy, I have rational anti religious beliefs.
Far too many in this country believe that others should not have freedom from relgion.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:49 am
There could be (I don’t know) – but that is quite different from your previous statement.
Irrational anti-ism seems rife in hardliners no matter what their political spectrum.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:52 am
” I maintain though that irrational anti-christian sentiment is rife in hardline lefties.”
They’re called Secular Progressives, and they’re the Third Reich without the Panzer brigades and the Stukas, but with the same desperate obsession of enforcing conformity of thought and speech.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:55 am
If you want to produce a very large billboard with your product advertised on it, you’re not going to manage it with a point-and-shoot digicam. So MF is pretty much a studio type system. A lot of landscape photographers also use them. But it is a very expensive and heavy way to do photography. They also have quite low shooting speeds.
Sport and wildlife photographers aren’t so keen on MF systems, as they’re too slow and too heavy.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:56 am
I found out where Redbaiter gets his inspiration from: http://www.randominsults.net/
November 20th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Cthoniid, did you see the photos of the bats sipping from the pond that an amateur got with motion detectors in his backyard?
November 20th, 2009 at 11:02 am
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1213851/Stunning-shots-thirsty-bats-swooping-lick-water-garden-pond.html
November 20th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Haven’t seen them Ryan- do you have a link? I hang around a couple of photography forums, but obviously miss a lot.
Motion sensors used to trigger cameras have been around for a while, but digital technology is really letting people explore new ways to take photographs. I like film in many ways, but it’s less amenable to some of these experiments.
EDIT: Thanks Pete
November 20th, 2009 at 11:07 am
HE ASKED ME PETE IS YOUR NAME RYAN
November 20th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Grumpy, I also have rational anti religious beliefs (and in fact I’m not quite sure what your point is). Freedom from religion is something I believe in too, which makes me all the more dubious of left wingers embracing muslims when it is clear that their religion advocates killing or enslaving non-muslims.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Freedom from religion is something I believe in too, which makes me all the more dubious of left wingers embracing muslims when it is clear that their religion advocates killing or enslaving non-muslims.
You are aware, are you not, the Judaism, and thus xtianity, also advocate the same?
November 20th, 2009 at 11:17 am
I don’t know any secular left-wingers who “embrace Muslims” in any way that condones killing or enslaving non-Muslims.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:21 am
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1229340/Harriet-Harman-prosecuted-driving-using-mobile-phone.html
“The law banning motorists from using hand-held phones while driving was introduced by the Labour government in 2003.”
Nice catch. I am sure the members of our very disappointing nanny state government will not be similarly embarrassed in the future.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:24 am
MNIJ, what a completely retarded statement, in fact it is a fallacy.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:25 am
Ryan, I don’t know anyone who owns a submarine.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:32 am
I think the point of agreement between Left Wingers/Progressives and Islam is that they both share the common goal of the destruction of Western Judeo-Christian Democracies.
The fact that democracy only really works within a Judeo-Christian framework is also perhaps ONE of the reasons why Christianity and Judaism also come in for attention from those sought on the destruction of western democracy.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:34 am
RightNow as a old fashioned lefty I dislike ALL religions, the whole bloody lot are just a bunch of sects.
Yet, we have right wingers and no doubt some left wingers in this country who believe speaking in tongues is good form.
I would like the to pick the snakes those types believe they should handle, a few Taipans come to mind.
As for the welfare class who belong to the bloody Mormons I would cut their welfare payments by the amounts they give of taxpayers’ money to Salt Lake city.
All Muslims want to kill non believers, I wonder why that bloke from the SI who is a Muslim born in NZ and who served as a rear gunner during WW2 did not take the opportunity to slaughter a few non believers on the airfield when he was seated behind four Browning MGs ?
We better watch that Pakistani cricket team.
Strange how a good Christian who bombed a building in the US is never bought up, why is that ?
November 20th, 2009 at 11:41 am
David Farrar: ETS a balancing act – NBR Opinion Piece
http://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/david-farrar/david-farrar-ets-a-balancing-act#comment-35651
ETS – Do Nothing Option (my comment on DPF’s article)
The fact that the ETS is based on pseudo science, is being pushed by the corrupt UN, and by socialist ideologues is MORE than reason enough to do nothing. NZers are idiots if we think we have to lead the charge on this. Ultimately the ETS is just a means of funding a non elected, non representative global government which will, among others things, remove the national sovereignty of nation states.
Reject the ETS if you value your freedom and independence!
November 20th, 2009 at 11:41 am
New topic for a moment if I may…
Anyone notice the Government appointing a top MSM executive to a power position on the key committee on its broadband policy (link below).
Matthews is a capable guy in this field, and it wasn’t his fault the cable network he began (Saturn) didn’t expand through the cities.
However, after all the cronyism of Labour, and Clark stacking Government boards with party lackeys, we were expecting better of National. This appointment harnesses to the Govt wagon one of the two key MSM forces in NZ.
The link:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/3081635/Fairfax-exec-joins-Crown-Fibre-board
November 20th, 2009 at 11:42 am
RightNow (427) Vote: 0 0 Says:
November 20th, 2009 at 11:24 am
MNIJ, what a completely retarded statement, in fact it is a fallacy.
I suggest you go and do what few xtians have ever done – read the bible.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Grumpy, I don’t actually believe that “All Muslims want to kill non believers”. The problem is that while most may be happy to live side by side with non-muslims, there will be some who do want to kill the infidels.
Now can you explain to me how with your distaste for all religion you’ve become an advocate for Islam?
November 20th, 2009 at 11:45 am
…how with your distaste for all religion you’ve become an advocate for Islam
You’d have to try pretty hard to set the bar any lower for ataining ‘Advocate’ status.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:47 am
MNIJ, why would I want to do that? You presented the fallacy, it’s not up to me to read a book because you can’t string two premises together to reach a valid conclusion. I suggest you need to read up on validity of arguments http://philosophy.hku.hk/think/arg/valid1.php
November 20th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Whoops! in my 11.41 post I misread Matthews’ job as chief executive of Fairfax, rather than chief executive of Fairfax’s digital set-up.
Not as blatant an appointment as I thought, but I still think it’s wrong to appoint MSM key staff to such related Govt posts.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Kris K preached “The fact that democracy only really works within a Judeo-Christian framework …” try telling that to the ancient Greeks.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:49 am
RightNow (429) Vote: 0 0 Says:
November 20th, 2009 at 11:47 am
MNIJ, why would I want to do that? You presented the fallacy, it’s not up to me to read a book because you can’t string two premises together to reach a valid conclusion
As i thouht, you’ve never read the bible, so you don’t know shit.
How many citations would you like?
November 20th, 2009 at 11:52 am
“as a old fashioned lefty I dislike ALL religions”
Except for the religion of Socialism.
That fraudulent ideology that promises its gormless believers Utopia and in the end, brings them death starvation poverty and destruction.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:53 am
MNIJ, another wrong conclusion. Why don’t you buy a clue?
November 20th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
The Muslim apologists are out again today in General Debate.
Let’s cut to the key problem between Islam and the West: the treatment of the half of the human race that is female.
Burquas, veils, women shut out of schooling in fundamentalist Islam countries….
Barbarians! But where are the militant feminists on this? Like other stunted leftists they hate the West more than they hate Islam’s moral and intellectual enslavement of women.
Also, when the Muslim apologists among leftist Westies dredge up the Dark Ages, and ignore the role of Byzantium and even Irish monasteries in keeping the flames of Western civilisation alive, they imply Islam provides a reasonable milieu for science.
Yet Islam does not accept Darwin’s theory of evolution, and Islamists have problems with the theory that is shared within Christianity only by the most fundamental sects.
How many books are being translated from the bubbling West’s core language, English, into Arabic, the core language of Islam? I bet it’s far fewer than are being translated into Braille.
Face it: communism is dead, socialism is dying, so the political retards are toying with Islam.
November 20th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
RightNow, explain these passages.
Leviticus 25:44-46: “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”
Deuteronomy 21:10-14: “When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.”
November 20th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
I wouldn’t leave Phil Goff in charge of the kid’s lunch money. No one can take his vacuous piffle seriously, more so when it relates the principles that underpin our economic performance.
November 20th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
RightNow 11:42 am,
While I agree with you that APPARENTLY ‘not all Muslims want to kill non believers’, I would argue that if they were Christians we would call them luke warm Christians (perhaps even non Christians). Or those that reject the fundamentals of their faith. All good Muslims MUST adhere to the teachings of the Koran, and the example set by Mohammed.
This is all so called radical, or good, Muslims are doing – adhering to the teachings of their faith. Islam also practices ‘peace’ with their enemies until such time as they become a force to be reckoned with. So our moderate, or ‘luke warm’, Muslims are perhaps really just radicals awaiting to reach critical mass within the societies which host them.
I tend to think that most Muslims fit into this latter category – sleeper radicals biding their time.
November 20th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
No, but fellatio by fruit bats prolongs copulation time.
We found that female short-nosed fruit bats C. sphinx lick their mate’s penis regularly during copulation, and that each second of licking results in approximately 6 extra seconds of copulation. Copulations also last longer if licking occurs than when no licking takes place.
And if you want to bypass the article and go straight to the bat porn here’s the video.
November 20th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
This is just a TINY sample:
“Building peace needs work at every level. It is not just the absence of violence, but the presence of justice and freedom. It will not happen between nations and religions until we have learned to build it between people. And that does not just happen – it needs to be worked at.”
Jeanette Fitzsimons 12/9/01
“New Zealand should condemn the dawn raids on Australia’s Muslim community, Green Party Foreign Affairs spokesperson Keith Locke said today.”The Bali bombing cannot justify Australian police terrorising Muslim families in Australia,” said Mr Locke. New Zealand should caution Australia about being caught up in the anti-Islamic hysteria flowing out of recent terrorist incidents. It was a huge over-reaction for the Australian police to sledgehammer their way into people’s homes waving around pistols and sub-machine guns. It seems people are being raided merely because of allegations they have associated with Islamic fundamentalists.”
Keith Locke 2002
“There’s really no difference between providing a mosque and, say, a cricket pavilion,” said Ms Turei, the Green Party Spokesperson on Education, Ethnic Affairs and Immigration. Not everyone plays cricket, not everyone is Muslim – but both are extra-curricular needs that can be met by schools so students can develop as rounded and un-alienated individuals… Ms Turei insists that the provision of a prayer room does not disturb the principle of secular education because students are not being given religious instruction. A room for people to practice their religion is not the provision of religious education, which is not appropriate in state schools.”
Metiria Turei 2004
“Whether the London bombings were carried out by Christians, Moslems or atheists is beside the point. They came out of extremist politics, not the tenets of any world religion. The London atrocities had nothing to do with the Islamic religion, which is a peaceful creed…We must unflinchingly support the Moslem people of New Zealand…
Keith Locke 2005
“Muslims in Australia feel under siege today, and we do not want to see that happen here. We have a much more tolerant climate in New Zealand. Tomorrow there will be a celebration in Parliament marking the end of Ramadan – a month of prayer and positive reflection; one of whose themes is peace. However, we cannot rest on our laurels…Prejudice towards Muslims is a by-product of the so-called war on terror spearheaded by the Bush administration and implemented in a repressive legislative form by George Bush’s allies, particularly John Howard and Tony Blair. We have some bad legislation of our own, such as the Terrorism Suppression Act of 2002 that is now being reviewed by this Parliament… A second and related goal of the Green Party will be to promote racial and religious tolerance, particularly towards Muslim people whose religion has been so negatively portrayed by such people as the leader of New Zealand First, Winston Peters. Associated with this, we will be trying to get people to understand the roots of small group terrorism of the al-Qaeda type. That has nothing to do with religion itself, but very unfortunately it draws adherents out of the political, social, and economic crisis – and injustice suffered by many people in the Islamic world, particularly in places like Palestine.”
Keith Locke 2005
“The Green Party has condemned Peters’ call for Islamic leaders to dob in dangerous members of their community. This is an insult to the Muslim community,” Human Rights Spokesperson Keith Locke says. There is no more evidence of ‘extremism’ among Muslims than there is among Christians, Jews, Hindus or atheists. Mr Peters slanders Muslim leaders when he accuses them of tolerating dangerous people in their community.”
Keith Locke 2005
“The Immigration Service must stop targeting Muslim New Zealanders when they return to the country, Green Party Immigration Spokesperson Keith Locke says.”
Keith Locke 2005
It hurts Muslims deeply that Islam is being portrayed as a violent religion… Muslims are no different from any other religious community in that they are more open to criticism when it comes from those sympathetic to the way Islam, like other world religions, contributes positively to community life. Unfortunately, most New Zealanders still treat Islam as a somewhat backward religion, and little appreciate its goodness and diversity… They were hardly alone in the community in not fully appreciating the international context of the Muslim reaction — of Muslims being put down by the governments, armies and, indeed, people of the West.
Keith Locke 2006
November 20th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Luc Hansen, at 10.21, dredges up the old chestnut of racism as the reason people oppose Islam.
Yeah, that’s why white Muslims and white non-Muslims slaughtered each other in Bosnia.
That’s why white infidel Russians and white, Muslim Chechens slaughtered each other. (As an African American observed, people don’t come more Caucasian than Chechens and other peoples from the Caucasus).
Luc Hansen repeatedly sidesteps and dodges questions about Islam’s treatment of females as second class people, then denies he has avoided answering before makaing a new post.
Luc surely you aren’t into Islam for the bullshit about a sex squad of virgins awaiting you on the Other Side?
An on the racism, Luc, tell us where the derogatory word for black Africans, “kaffir”, comes from?
November 20th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
The bat post appeared almost a month ago in sciblogs (http://sciblogs.co.nz/code-for-life/2009/10/28/fellatio-by-fruit-bats-prolongs-copulation-time/)
November 20th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
MyNameIsJack 11:47 am,
Most functional modern day democratic societies spring from a Judeo-Christian foundation.
For example; Israel – the only democracy in the Middle East, and most of what are/were Christian nations – Europe, the US, etc., form the backbone of western type democracies.
As these nations throw off their Judeo-Christian heritage they also start to flounder as democracies and become ripe for takeover by other ideologies (Socialism, Communism, Islam, etc.).
Don’t we see this process at work in our very own nation?
November 20th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Oooo, I can do that. They’re in the Old Testament. Being a Christian is all about becoming more like Christ. The story of his life and followers is in the New Testament. I think the world would be a better place if more of us became more like Him: Humble, honest, compassionate, real etc
But if you do insist on picking our single verses in a lame attempt to discredit Christianity then why not use the New Testament, Matthew 27:5 (‘Judas hung himself in the potters field’) as an endorsement of suicide.
November 20th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Re Cha and Chthoniid’s fellating fruit bats!
Is that why they hang upside down? They’re just thoroughly satisfied?
November 20th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
I won’t ask you about the habits and beliefs of submarine owners, then.
November 20th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
It’s interesting how people are so eager to claim commonly valued people and institutions for their own, in arguments of ideology. And eager to associate the other with commonly hated people and institutions.
“We all like democracy, yes? Well, democracy comes from people agreeing with me about God. We all hate Hitler, yes? Well, Hitler comes from people disagreeing with me about God.”
Those words could be spoken by an atheist or a Christian with equal conviction. (Not every atheist, of course, nor every Christian.)
November 20th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
The short one –
The long one –
November 20th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Kris K You seem confused, parts of Turkey are in the Middle East, Turkey is a democracy.
I do admit that the Turks are a touch annoyed at the Israelis for using Gaza women and children as target practice even though the majority were only Muslims.
Maybe Israel will have a crack at the Turks, now that would be amusing.
November 20th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Ryan,
I don’t really see the point you’re trying to make in your 12:36 pm comment.
Perhaps you would clarify for us.
November 20th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
New topic for a minute….
Witi Ihimaera’s copying seems even worse than first revealed (see link below).
C’mon Witi, give back the $50,000 Arts Foundation “laureate” award.
Ihimaera is a professor of English and a “Distinguished Creative Fellow in Maori Literature” at the University of Auckland.
The link:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10610510
November 20th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
I’ve just often observed this phenomenon. People want big hitters on their side, and no matter what their belief, they will find a way to argue those big hitters on to their side. Christians say Jesus was God, Hindus say Jesus was one of many incarnations of God, Muslims say Jesus was a prophet of Allah, secular humanists say Jesus was a human moral teacher, and so on. Everyone does the opposite with Hitler.
And they also seem to do it with things like democracy. Because democracy is another big hitter in these arguments – it’s something people on both sides of arguments value. So Christians say democracy came from Christianity and secularists say democracy came from breaking free of Christianity, and so on.
It’s just fascinating.
November 20th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
MNIJ, you seem to think I lend some credence to what it written in the OT. I can’t think of anything I may have said (posted) to lead you to this conclusion. I have read the bible cover to cover three times, admittedly over 25 years ago, and I have no reason to re-read it because as I have pointed out, I am an atheist. However, I still am amazed that anti-christians keep quoting OT verses. IMO christianity is founded on the teachings of Christ and nothing to do with the OT. Real christians (again IMO) are those that hold one principle above all – love one another. There’s a lot of people out there who call themselves christians who would do well to think about that, and likewise there’s a lot of people out there who also believe in that principle who don’t call themselves christians.
November 20th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
# Ryan Sproull (3017) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 20th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Ryan, I don’t know anyone who owns a submarine.
I won’t ask you about the habits and beliefs of submarine owners, then.
That would be wise. However, even though I don’t know anyone who owns a submarine, that doesn’t mean submarine owners don’t exist.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Ryan Sproull 12:50 pm,
So where do you stand, Ryan?
Surely, even you’ll admit that modern day democracies are founded upon Judeo-Christian values and principles; and that our laws and justice system were (at least originally) based on the ten commandments. Modern day democracies acknowledged (past tense) the God of the Bible, and their ultimate accountability to Him.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
True, but if you knew a great many submarine owners and you told me that none of them wear hats, that would be of value in a conversation where someone made generalisation about the hat-wearing tendencies of submarine owners.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
MNIJ – give it a rest man. Who cares. Are christians reading these things and flying planes into buildings or massacring half a million people in Darfur? If they were you would have a point.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
I think it’s too complex an issue to be simplified into either “based on Christianity” or “based on breaking free of religion”.
I do disagree that our laws and justice system were based on the 10 Commandments. It is more that laws and justice systems tend to be many things, one of which are the behaviours necessary for a group to operate effectively (don’t kill each other, don’t steal from each other, etc.), and that the 10 Commandments are an example of laws fulfilling those necessities in the the context they were written.
The 10 Commandments, and other Judaic laws, were the law of the Hebrew people. They bear similarities to Confucian law and ancient Greek law and Buddhist monastic law and playground rules and employee codes of conduct because: they are all laws, and what is conducive to cooperation in groups of humans doesn’t vary all that wildly throughout time or place.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
@NotRightEver oops…I mean RN said
I don’t really think they believe in religious freedom at all, and that is my point.
**********************************
Well your point is wrong. It is well recognised in history that the spread of Islam was aided by the enlightened (for the times) treatment of the conquered peoples. Conversion to Islam was encouraged, and brought benefits, but adherence to other religions was certainly tolerated (but they had to pay tax). 17% of the West Bank, for example, even in the face of intense enmity with the nominally Jewish State busy occupying, oppressing and dispossessing it, are Jewish (CIA Factbook). And these are not settler Jews, who are not counted as part of the West Bank population.
This is not to say that some Muslim extremists do preach death to infidels but that has to be seen in the context of the modern era, just as the extremists in the US sometimes actually kill for the sake of their religion.
Human rights apply to all. I actually fail to see any rational endpoint to your and Kris’ rantings. You believe SOME Muslims want to kill non-Muslims (lets leave to one side for the moment all the wild chat talk from Christians that Islam needs, hence all Muslims, need to be eliminated).
So what’s your game? Do you advocate killing all Muslims because of the sins of a few?
Nearly every serial killer in US history is Christian. The worst home grown terrorist was a fundamentalist Christian. Should we kill all Christians in the US?
Jack5, I don’t sidestep anything. The treatment of women in Islam is grossly offensive to our western values, but that is not a reason to go to war. Just as old writings are no reason to do to war, and just as past sins of Christians are no reason to go to war. This is always my main point. Of the three Abrahamic religions, two retain the savagery of those ancient writings and one actually specialised in practicing the same for a long, long time even if expunging that aspect from their texts.
And Jack, if you are not Islamophobic, you are racist. If you are not racist, you are Islamophobic. Many of the same defining principles apply to both terms, and you comments fulfill them, so take your choice.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
grumpyoldhori 12:42 pm,
Turkey requires an army to uphold the fiercely secular constitution. To stay secular, they have to remove freedoms that seem pretty fundamental (eg, private religious schools). In fact, you cannot even have family that bear Islamic cover if you want to be in the army. Without such a fiercely secular constitution, Turkey would end up like Saudi Arabia.
Perhaps a democracy in name only; and not the freedoms we would associate with a truly free western democracy.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Turkey’s pretty tough, too, on the quarter or more of its population that is Kurdish. Until recently, and perhaps still, Christians were allowed to teach in primary schools but not secondary schools, and Christians could not be officers in the army.
Still by Middle East standards it’s quite progressive, though Muslim extremists are trying to turn it back, such as by bringing back head coverings for women.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Perhaps Ryan, but the flipside is that because you don’t know any “secular left-wingers who “embrace Muslims” in any way that condones killing or enslaving non-Muslims” that doesn’t support a conclusion that there aren’t any.
What would constitute ‘condones’ in your statement? In my opinion any muslim who adheres strictly to the religion is ultimately going to have to reconcile the teaching to kill and enslave non-muslims. Under the umbrella of cultural sensitivity many are tacitly condoning this.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Luc Hansen 1:13 pm,
Luc, you’re an idiot!
Muslims follow the teachings of Mohammed, and look to his life as an example.
Christians follow the teachings of Christ, and look to His life as an example.
Mohammed and his followers kill[ed] their enemies.
Christ died for His enemies; and his followers are not to murder even their enemies, but show them God’s love.
Your examples of so called ‘Christian’ terrorists were following neither the teachings of Christ, nor the example He set. By the Biblical definition they were not Christians.
The Roman Cotholic crusades were also non Biblical, and anti Christian activities.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
It would appear Lebanon, Iran, Afghanistan, are not democracies. I know I’ll get shit for including Iran but although it is not our idea of democracy, they are working on it. And many other ME states are developing democracies. Democracy is a relatively new concept in these lands. The white supremacists here forget that it took the West centuries to develop reasonably functional democracies.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Kris, there was no Christ. Get over it.
I know you have a weird view of Catholicism, but the First Crusade was ordered by Pope Urban II. Catholics adhere to Christianity.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Luc Hansen ignores my question about the origins of the word “kaffir” to brand me either a racist or Islamophobe. By this standard, Hansen is a woman hater.
Hansen brushes off the question about Islam’s treatment of women. The question was how does Hansen defend Islam’s treatment of women as second-class citizens and Hansen yet again replied: it’s no reason to go to war. That’s no answer at all. No-one said it was a reason to go to war.
On Hansen’s throwing around of the word “racism”, how about he answer the question of how he reconciles this claim with white Muslims fighting non-Muslim whites in what was Yugoslavia and in Russia?
I’m also still waiting for Hansen to explain the derivation of “kaffir”, a derogatory word for black Africans. (Hansen won’t so here it is: “kaffir” a derogatory word legally actionable in South Africa is the Arab word for Muslim unbeliever, and comes from the Arab slave traders who even today enslave and deal in black Africans.)
Hansen might also like to explain Arab Muslims’ persecution, genocide, and frequently enslavement, of black Africans, usually non-Muslim, across North Africa. As a defender of such racism, Hansen himself may meet the definition of racist.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Also remember that while the Atlantic slave trade is used as a stick to beat Europeans with even now, the Arab slave trade which continues to this day in Africa hardly warrants a mention, depsite the fact that as many, if not more, actual humans were enslaved. I guess tens of thousands of blacks dying in slave coffles trekking across Africa doesn’t have the4 same visual appeal as the same people dying in the holds of slave ships.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Luc, you’ve completely missed the point again. My contention is that for many hardline lefties they are very pro-muslim under the guise of inclusiveness, cultural sensitivity and freedom of religion, yet they are vehemently anti-christian. You only have to look at MNIJ who seems to perpetually be on an anti-christian rampage. I have no problem with people adhering to a religion as long as it doesn’t interfere with my freedoms, and ultimately that is the goal of islam.
I believe Islam is a real threat. It is a religion that has the end-goal of dominating the world and killing or enslaving all those that don’t adhere to it. Meanwhile the genuine christians I see around the place are all busy doing social work.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
So Israel is not a proper democracy for the only people who have an absolute right of return to Israel are Jews.
Of course that includes that kiwi who committed treason against NZ.
Would you white supremacists want him strung up if we get our hands on him ?
November 20th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Luc Hansen at 1.29 posted: “…he white supremacists here forget that it took the West centuries to develop reasonably functional democracies.”
Bullshit, Hansen. The Ancient Greeks, the founders of the West, invented democracy and had democratic states more than 2000 years ago.
What are you suggesting any way, that Middle Easterners aren’t intellectually capable of adopting a new political system, namely democracy? You seem to be saying it will take them generations to master it.
More Hansen racism, eh?
And Grumpy joins with the “white supremist” chorus.
Anyone who questions Islam a racial supremist Grumpy? C’mon.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Luc: “The white supremacists here “. Thanks for conceding you don’t have decent arguments and have to resort to name calling.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
No, I would have to know all of them to say that there are none, but the statements to which I was responding seemed to imply something a bit more general than one or two of them hidden around the world.
My use of the word “condone” was only an attempt to sum up whatever it was I and other leftists seemed to be accused of. You say, “Under the umbrella of cultural sensitivity many are tacitly condoning this.” Again I say, I know a great many secular leftists and I don’t know any who condone slavery, murder or the lack of religious freedom, tacitly or otherwise.
Give me an example of a secular leftist condoning the slavery and/or murder of non-Muslims. They would be condoning their own enslavement or murder for a start.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Ryan Sproull at 1.43 posted: “…Give me an example of a secular leftist condoning the slavery and/or murder of non-Muslims.”
Luc Hansen????????
November 20th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Jack, I don’t need to explain anything. You keep going off on tangents and introducing red herrings. Oh, and of course, keeping up the personal abuse. Let’s just tone that down, OK.
I answered your question on Islamic treatment of women openly and clearly. But what do you want me to do about it?
All races have their dark sides in history. Periods of tolerance and periods of intolerance. Good points, bad points, although it’s all relative.
I am still waiting for you and Kris to tell me what it is that you want. Just what is your point? Keep it straight and simple, if you can. At the moment, you are just preaching hatred of Muslims.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Luc does sidestep the question with a lame call to moral relativism. Let me help you out Luc – you seem to struggle with this. The treatment of woman in Islam is grossly offensive. Period.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Luc Hansen 1:30 pm,
You’d better hope so, Luc. Of course, if you’re wrong there will be no ‘getting over it’.
Roman Catholics follow the latest edicts from the latest pope; who they believe is ‘God on earth’. Whatever blasphemy comes out of the vatican/pope always over-rides Biblical teaching and the example Christ set for His followers.
Roman Catholicism is an unbiblical, ungodly cult which leads millions to a Christless eternity. I guess you’ll have lots of time to compare notes after the fact.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Grumpyoldhori
Seems this white supremacist stuff is spreading fast:
The extra-judicial approach is the cream on top.
I’t’s another one of those “what if Bush had said that” chuckle moments.
November 20th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Personal abuse, Luc Hansen? When you are calling posters who disagree with you white supremists? You can abuse others for racism when you apparently defend racist actions? And accuse us of preaching hatred of Muslims.
You did not, have not, and apparently cannot answer questions about Islam’s treatment of women. You have answered only that it’s not a cause for war (when no-one suggested it was), and said “all races have their dark sides in history”, when we were discussing adherents of a religion and their beliefs and practices, not members of a race.
You are clearly unable to reconcile a Western citizen’s conscience with Islam’s treatment of women and attitudes to them.
It is insufficient to be unable to answer a question then demand to know what the question is. In effect you are repeatedly saying: “I cannot answer that question, what is the question?”
November 20th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Ryan, going back to the statement I made “Freedom from religion is something I believe in too, which makes me all the more dubious of left wingers embracing muslims when it is clear that their religion advocates killing or enslaving non-muslims.”
I think there are two parts to it that you take issue with. First, left wingers embracing muslims. It is easy to see examples of this (e.g. the post from Swiftman the Infidel at 12.18pm). Second, “it is clear that their religion advocates the killing or enslaving of non-muslims”. I think that is a given, the question really is how many muslims are devout enough to adhere to that part of their religion, and if the answer is anything other than zero then it’s too many.
Back to your statement of “I don’t know any secular left-wingers who “embrace Muslims” in any way that condones killing or enslaving non-Muslims”. This is actually not what I said at all, is it?
November 20th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
getstaffed I said this at 1.13pm above
“Jack5, I don’t sidestep anything. The treatment of women in Islam is grossly offensive to our western values, but that is not a reason to go to war.”
And like Jack, you get straight into distortion.
I don’t condone one bad practice by any state, anywhere, including here. The only question is what are we going to do about it?
I still have not received from any of you what you actually want. Not even an Ali Baba wish
It’s all just an orgy of Muslim bashing.
As tiresome as it is sad.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
What we want Luc is for you to justify your position as a defender of Islam, specifically in relation to its treatment of women.
We’ve asked you scores of times and you pretend you don’t understand.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
# Kris K at 12:11 pm
“I tend to think that most Muslims fit into this latter category – sleeper radicals biding their time.”
Have you considered that non-Christians might think that most Christians are sleeper Crusaders.
I don’t think they are, but others might.
Democracies have grown and strengthened as more people get better educated and the influence and control of the churches have waned (ironically churches have often been instrumental in educating).
November 20th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Luc Hansen 1:49 pm,
Your comment more highlights your lack of comprehension skills, than our ability to put forward our views clearly.
Or is it feigned ignorance?
Pointing out the reality of Islam is just that. While I hate the system of Islam, I feel compassion and sorrow for those caught up in it. I’m happy to testify of Christ’s death on their behalf just as much as I would any other individual. But I refuse to keep quiet about the Satanic nature of Islam, and the very real threat it is to all those that love freedom.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Fuck. You don’t say!! Man my dead mother must be really pissed off about now.
Kris K – you are as bad as MNIJ.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
If we were as illogical as Luc Hansen we would describe Pete George”s suggestion Muslims might think Christians are “sleeper Crusaders” as Christian bashing.
Luc Hansen sees any questioning or criticism of Islam as Muslim bashing.
That might be the view in Saudi Arabia, Luc, but it doesn’t apply here.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Kris K – I don’t believe Islam is a satanic cult – to me it is just a political/religious ideology that actively preaches the death of people like me.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Pointless stuff. Haven’t you realised I think all religions are foolish delusions? What I am defending is the Muslims right to work through their own issues, in their own lands. I recognise that antagonising and radicalising Muslims in their own lands is not going to help the people we all want to help. Every single Muslim I have met here (including my ex-next door neighbours of nearly a decade) have been lovely, peaceful people, aghast at the goings on in their former homelands, but passionate advocates of non-interference.
You need to examine our definitions of racism and Islamophobia, carefully, and I am sure you will find that many of your above comments fit the bill.
And now you turn your plentiful vitriol on me. Well, I’m proud I have resisted the very strong urge to respond in kind. Take a break. Have a Kit Kat.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
I certainly didn’t deny that there are left-wingers who defend Muslims’ rights to equality and respectful treatment. I was more specific precisely for this reason.
It is not a given. Religions evolve. Certainly there are interpretations on Islam that are incompatible with liberal secular democracy, just as there are interpretations of Christianity that are incompatible with liberal secular democracy.
Again, this is why I was more specific. There are left-wingers defending Muslims’ rights to equal and respectful treatment. That does not equate to agreeing with or condoning any part of those human beings’ religion, murderous interpretation or otherwise.
Not until 1.25. Could you explain what you meant by this?
“In my opinion any muslim who adheres strictly to the religion is ultimately going to have to reconcile the teaching to kill and enslave non-muslims. Under the umbrella of cultural sensitivity many are tacitly condoning this.”
What exactly were you saying that “many are tacitly condoning”?
November 20th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Luc, I want a world where nobody wants to kill or enslave anybody.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Pete George 2:08 pm,
I’m glad you’re not in that group, Pete.
To those that may hold this view I would ask them to compare recent history where Islam is/has essentially taking over Europe, Africa, many of the Russian states, etc. And contrast that with the occurance of the last (Roman Catholic) Crusade.
Of course, as I said before, Roman Catholicism is not representative of Biblical Christianity. The RC Crusades would be one of many examples of this.
Remember many of the victims of the RC Crusades were actually Biblical Christians who refused to bow to the authority of Rome. Have a read of Fox’s Book of the Martyrs which highlights this.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Re Luc Hansen’s 2.18 post…
Stop posing as a cool, rational, civilised debater Luc. You have been labelling everyone you disagree with as racists, white supremists, and Islamophobes.
And you’re worried about radicalising and antagonising people in their own lands? For goodness sake, this is Kiwiblog, not Al Jazeera or the BBC.
Watch out in case there’s pork-fat derivative in your Kit Kat.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
Ryan, I think an example may serve best – Fort Hood.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Luc claims that anything he disagrees with is a distortion, and further, that anyone who writes something disagrees with is guilty of personal abuse. Odd, but back to the topic:
Your position is “The treatment of women in Islam is grossly offensive to our western values.”
My position is “The treatment of women in Islam is grossly offensive.”
Luc, you are on a hiding to nothing on this one.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
The shootings or the reaction from the public?
November 20th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Luc is just being tiresome.
Sad that.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Brian Smaller 2:09 pm,
I am not trying to offend you or Roman Catholics, and I apologise if I have offended you.
It’s just that the teaching of the RC Church doesn’t line up with Biblical teaching, and I would be dishonest not to point that out, especially when Luc keeps grouping them together, and tainting Biblical Christianity with the actions of Rome.
Brian Smaller 2:12 pm,
And I believe the motivation behind Islam is a Satanic hatred of ALL that is outside of Islam; especially Christianity and Judaism. Their hatred goes beyond the realms of natural dislike; there is a definite supernatural component to their hatred IMHO.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Ryan, just from what I understand (from news reports etc) the warning signs were all there prior to the event but were ignored largely out of ‘cultural sensitivity’. But also the reaction, in that the primary concern appears to be fear of an ‘anti-Islam’ backlash.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
RightNow – Yeah – the feared anti-Islam backlash that never eventuated. More concern shown over a “possible” backlash than over the actual deed that might have provoked it.
November 20th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
You should not apologise for offending me (actually you didn’t because all us deveil worshippers know the truth behind the Papacy anyway). Being offended is the price I gladly pay to live in a free society. Unfortunately, being ‘offended’ is used to justify censorship. Usually self-censorship as people become more and more afraid to say anything for fear of offending someone.
Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names can never hurt me – An oldy but a goody. I am more than happy for a Islamist to hurl abuse at little ol’ infidel me, but when he starts hurling bombs I get pissed off.
November 20th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
I see there has been a load of leaked emails from HadCrut, one of the epicentres of the Global Warming scam. Go to WUWT & take a look:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/19/breaking-news-story-hadley-cru-has-apparently-been-hacked-hundreds-of-files-released/#comments
Basically the alarmists tricks of the trade have been exposed & more information is coming to light every hour. There is a download of 62MB if anyone wants to look at things closer.
http://ftp.tomcity.ru/incoming/free/FOI2009.zip
Happy reading.
November 20th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
@Jack5:
We live in a country that values freedom of religion and freedom of dress [except in Wanganui
].
So what should we do?
(a) Forbid Muslims entry into the country.
(b) Forbid the wearing of burqas and veils.
(c) …something else.
I’m genuinely interested in knowing your opinion here.
November 20th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
@getstaffed:
It always amuses me how well some atheists know the Bible (or, certain bits of the Bible, anyway) ..
November 20th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
While people are debating some real or phantom menace (Russians, Muslims, whatever is fear of the month) there are a couple of things happening under your noses that don’t seem to concern anyone very much. Beware of the problems within.
There is a regular poster here who expresses hatred at a large proportion of the population, who tries to talk up revolt, who wants to oust all of our MPs etc etc and he gets a certain level of direct or tacit support on this blog. What if he managed to rev up some sort of group that was prepared to actually do something? Who speaks against him?
At the same time, possibly unrelated, there is a movement taking place that aims to change our democracy to make it easier for special interests with money and the already proven ability to influence significant numbers of people to push through issues that they want changed. Who is really behind all this? I don’t think it is the “Progressives” or the communists or the Muslims.
Keep worrying about the possible foreign threats if you like, but think about what is going on around you too.
November 20th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Hey Delirium, your Bradford law suck balls. Deal with it.
On the topic of cancerous wimmin destroying the West with bullshit, some good news from the UK:
November 20th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
If any group is going to dominate the world in my life time, it’ll be the Chinese, not the Muslims..
November 20th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
I agree that that could be a problem. I don’t know the full details of the warning signs, so I can’t comment on the specific instance, but I see the concern.
November 20th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
If you had bothered to notice what I have said you would know that I have never supported Bradford, and I don’t think her bill end up doing the right thing.
But then you may know that and could be attacking to avoid the issue.
November 20th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Pete George 3:17 pm,
I think most regulars here are more than aware of REAL threats; both foreign and domestic, that attack our freedoms and way of life. This blog covers all possible scenarios, that’s for sure.
November 20th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Kill them all. God will know his own.
November 20th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Nah, I’m sweet, Delirium.
Though I think it’s time to ignore mouthbreathers like Puke “RAM voter” Hansen and sillyold “mah cuzzie’s a Marxist” twat and start a new subject. Like just how well Modern Warfare 2’s done.
I thought it was great until it went down into moronic conspiracy plotlines. Still, 90% right is excellent for the entertainment industry. Multiplayer’s decent too.
November 20th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Pete George:
Yeah, we voted them out last election. Although the unions still have a pretty strong hold on the political landscape, I don’t expect the Labour party to be back in for a while. I hope not, after all – they bought one election and tried to buy another.
November 20th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Reading the Bible could’ve been what pushed them into agnosticism or atheism. I’m always amused by how many Christians haven’t read the Bible. But let’s not mention the Catholics.
Speaking of Catholics, Kris, I will reply to your most excellent comments on Belle de Jour. I’ve been busy refactoring some horrible code and as you can see I’ve only had time for snipey comments.
November 20th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Are you marching tomorrow Pascal?
November 20th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Thanks Repton 3:35 pm,
From your link:
Just another good Catholic following orders from the pope.
NB Albigensians were early Christians who refused the authority of Rome.
November 20th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Pete George hell don’t discourage him, I have this vision of those who wish to be ruled by the god book charging parliament with pitchforks.
November 20th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
getstaffed, what a pompous prat!
All I have seen here today, with the obvious and welcome exceptions, is Muslim bashing which in many countries would be illegal. I’m not sure about in this supposedly excessively PC land. I’ll send the link through to Joris and see what he says, although it seems that anonymity covers a multitude of sins. At least I put my money where my mouth is.
There has been not one constructive post from all you Islamophobes who tomorrow are going to cheer to get back the right to assault your kids.
A quick squizz through today’s news:
1. Prostitute customer and child sex addict, the PM of Italy, goes up in the polls in the heart of Catholicism.
2. The president of the ” Leader of the Free World” gloats over the impending revenge execution of a terrorist. So much for Christian values. Even more amusing is that a few more years in Indonesia and he undoubtedly would be Muslim. But not president, no doubt.
3. Israeli police arrest a Jewish woman at the Western Wall for wearing a prayer shawl. In Orthodox Judaism, evidently, this is the preserve of men only.
4. In Australia, a 12 year old aboriginal boy was dragged out of school and into court and about to be criminalised for receiving a stolen article valued at 30c. He was saved by the intervention of the State Commissioner.
5. In LA, a 10 year old girl was tasered in her own home at the behest of her mother. She was throwing a 10 year olds tantrum.
Reminds me of that song:
O lord it’s so hard to be humble,
when I’m perfect in every way.
Or a Kris would say:
let he who is without sin
cast the first stone.
November 20th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Malcolm 3:40 pm,
Look forward to it, Malcolm.
Just so long as you don’t try “refactoring some horrible” Christian.
I’ve already been ‘refactored’, thanks very much.
PS I have read the entire Bible (generally RCs do not, and are actually quite ignorant of God’s word – they’re discouraged from doing so, and rely on priests and the pope for their latest ’spiritual’ insight).
November 20th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Whoops, I notice a Muslim has joined the NZ army, should he be chucked out ?
Should all Muslims be chucked out of NZ ?
Amusing to notice the godly in the US whining about a US soldier being interned in Arlington, being good xtians they do not want a Muslim who died in action in Iraq being buried among xtians.
What a bunch of wimps so many of you are about members of a certain sect, if a bunch of Muslims swam ashore at the Hokianga they would be invited to be lunch.
November 20th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
In response to Repton’s 3.13 post…
You ask a question of me with three answers to choose from.
The obvious answer is C, something else, though on security and identification grounds I would ban women with faces hidden in burquas from driving, from accessing ATMs, clearing airports, from entering banks, or from appearing before courts.
My “something else” answer is:
We need to keep pressing Muslims to explain why they think women are so inferior that they can be regarded as a second class of people, why some Muslims think female human beings, unlike males, have no souls. We should ask why some Muslim nations deny girls education.
We need Muslims who wish to live in New Zealand to abjure any beliefs that women shouldn’t have equal rights with men, and to promise to adhere to our values and beliefs in regard to women and women’s standing in the community and to uphold our legal safeguards for women and their rights and place in society.
We need to press Muslims to explain why they think they should be allowed to proselytise in our countries, as in NZ prisons, while in many, perhaps most Muslim countries, Christians can be jailed or killed for trying to convert Muslims.
We need to ask why Muslims feel they can impose death sentences on citizens of Western countries for expressing their opinions, as in novelists and cartoonists.
We need to press Muslims to explain how Islam justifies holding out the “promise” of after-death rewards to suicide killers, specifically suicide bombers.
We need to ask Islamicists why some Muslims who migrate to Western countries then want to impose their own theological legal systems atop the legal systems of their host countries.
We need to keep gentle pressure on Muslims everywhere to examine and re-examine their religion and their tenets, so there will be the same evolution towards liberalism of Islam as has occurred in Christianity. The more extremist Muslim states are theocracies, with all the weakness this entails. If we can prod them into more open societies, they will heal themselves.
Repton: of your 3.25 post saying …”f any group is going to dominate the world in my life time, it’ll be the Chinese, not the Muslims..”
You compare a race or a nationality with a religion. Apples and oranges.
November 20th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
I wonder if Puke’s new kid will turn out as fucked up as the first one he seldom mentions.
November 20th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Luc Husain 3:51 pm,
Accuses people here of ‘Muslim bashing’, and then goes on to bash what he (falsely) believes is representative of Judeo-Christian values. Of course, none of his five examples above were by Christians (RCs, yes) and he must have been scratching to find that Israeli example. Why don’t you find a few example of Muslim atrocities while your at it, Luc, you know, just to be balanced and all.
You really are a one eyed, hypocritical, head in the sand, bigot!
Must be nice in Luc’s little fantasy land. Meanwhile, back in the real world … (where most of the rest of us live)
November 20th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Luc Hansen come on be fair, the Aboriginal kid was not kicked to death by the cops.
Hell he got off lightly, I’m sure if he had been a whiter shade of pale the book would have been thrown at him.
November 20th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
“..Meanwhile, back in the real world … (where most of the rest of us live)..”
(best laugh of the thread..)
..there are none so deluded..as the deeply-deluded..
and..
i wonder if hurf wd have offspring as mendacious/racist/just downright nasty..
as he/she is..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 20th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Luc Hansen at 3.51:”……slim bashing which in many countries would be illegal. I’m not sure about in this supposedly excessively PC land. I’ll send the link through to Joris and see what he says.”
Please teacher we were playing and they were mean to me.
Grumpy at 4.01:”… a bunch of Muslims swam ashore at the Hokianga they would be invited to be lunch…”
Hell Grumpy, if they had jumped off the dhow and sum ashore 150 years ago at Whangaroa they might invited for lunch rather than invited to lunch.
November 20th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
The word “would” has three letters in the middle, Phil.
November 20th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
One thing that has not been discussed here about Islam is that it is a religion that is also – explicitly – a political project, in a way that modern Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism are not.
Most religions will wield political power if they have the votes in a democracy or influence in the elites of an undemocratic regime. But all of that is considered incidental to the pursuit of theological aims. State power can contribute to, but is not essential to, those aims.
But in Islam there is no separation of church and state. It never had a “render unto Ceaser….” moment, upon which a Reformation could build, let alone a New Testament break. Being an Islamic society does not just mean that a majority of the population are Muslim but being a society whose civil institutions are Muslin.
Several years ago the apostate Ibn Warraq made an important distinction: there are moderate Muslims, but no moderate Islam.
Around the world Islam, like Christianity, has adapted itself to local customs, from the Balkans to Indonesia. Those syncretist types of Islam endured for years, but they got their “moderate” character from the surrounding cultures, not from any particular school of Islam. All of the official schools of Islamic jurisprudence approve of sharia law and violent jihad (bad luck for the Sufis).
That’s rather a tough nut to crack if you’re a moderate Muslim who just wants to get on with life in the West, as most 1st generation Muslims did and most Muslims still do. It’s especially tough if you’re trying to stand up to such institutions made flesh in the form of men like Shaker Elsayed, leader of the Dar al Hijrah, one of America’s larger mosques, who told his coreligionists in blunt terms: “The call to reform Islam is an alien call”
It’s even tougher when a moderate Muslim looks around at the likes of Luc and MNIJ, and most of the Western political and media elites, and sees people who not only refuse to take on the Imams and their teachings, but actually pander to them and condemn those who do take them on as being “racist” (an epithet that won’t die despite being basely moronic), “Islamophobic”, and so forth.
You can just see Salman Rushdie – in hiding for a decade with an official fatwa from Ayatollah Khomeini on his head – being lectured by Luc that his fear of death is “Islamaphobic”.
November 20th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Looks like Phool’s just woken up.
Another one that lives outside of the real world.
Welcolm to the Luc and Phool nightmare.
November 20th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Re Luc Hansen’s quote about the Aboriginal lad at 3.51 and Grump’s comment…
Luc in the context of the debate on Islam in this thread you point out an apparently nasty incident in a Western country.
This is fairly mild compared with the Pashtun warlords building up harems of little boys, and the Gulf states use of Pakistani boys as camel-race jockeys.
What is your point? Are you pointing to motes (dust particles) in Western eyes in response to beams in Muslim eyes?
November 20th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Sigh….
…whose civil institutions are
MuslinCheeseclothMuslim…..November 20th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
phluc, you should really get your anger under control. Watch out tomorrow if you’re going to the march, I’ll keep an eye on the news for you, I expect you’re the sort of guy that attracts trouble.
November 20th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
@Jack5: Thanks for your answer.
I would like to put another quesiton to you.
Imagine, for a moment, that you have been elected Prime Minister of New Zealand and your party has an absolute majority. And what’s more — glory be! — you have discovered a long-lost twin brother who thinks exactly as you do. You appoint this twin-brother Minister of Foreign Affairs. Between the two of you, you will determine New Zealand’s immigration policies, citizenship tests, refugee intakes, foreign policy, and so on.
Sticking to the subject of “islam” (including New Zealand’s relationship to Islamic states and New Zealand’s acceptance and treatment of Islamic immigrants), what would you do with this power?
November 20th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
(psstt..!..i’ve-got-a-special-friend-in-the-sky crew..!..)
i don’t want to alarm you..
..but ‘ol devil-eyes richard dawkins is coming to nz..
..in march..
..better get all the witch-hunt gear out of storage..
..eh..?
(start warning the villagers..?..to prepare the pyre..?..
polish the pitchforks..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 20th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Phool and Dawkins will have all eternity to compare notes …
on where they went wrong!
November 20th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
oh..?..do we get to ‘chat’..?..in hell..?
(who knew..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 20th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Tom, you got +1 from me, but I wonder if that would have any benefit?
I’m not great student of human nature, but my feeling is that if the west pushes on the hardline Imams, they’ll just get more hardline. We could bomb them, sure, but as we’ve seen in Iraq that just drives more people to the religion and makes them more radical.
If I was in charge of the aid budget to an Islamic country, I’d say to them, hey, I’ll build and run a school. And I’ll fix your water supply so you’ve got clean water on tap. But on the condition that everyone comes to school — boys and girls.
[I'd also set up a TV room showing football, but that's 'cause I've been reading superfreakonomics
]
If Islam’s going to change, it won’t be through force; it’ll be through trade. We need to raise an educated generation that would rather trade with the west than bomb them.
November 20th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
what else happens in hell..?
do tell..!
kkk..!
(c’mon..!..your challenge..is to make us ’scared’..
cani suggest one scenario..?
an eternity forced to listen to duets from celine dion and michael bolton..?)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 20th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Jack5 lived in Australia ?
Now I realise that schools today are pretty poor on history, but even you must have been taught about those good xtian Aussies holding drives to shoot Aboriginals for sport.
The Muslims were worse in NZ or Aussie, when was that ?
November 20th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
I’ll be heading to the march tomorrow.
November 20th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
see ya there..llama..
i’ll be one of those jeering on the sideline..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 20th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Yeah right, phool, like you’ll get up before noon.
November 20th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
and gee..!..i hope that rich/naieve man spent his half a million wisely..
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 20th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
You are welcome to Jeer from the sideline Phillu although i won’t be gnashing my teeth whilst waving a jug cord and placard around.
November 20th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
mm..!.poster-ideas..
’suffer the little children..!’..say the smackers..
‘need a ‘loving smack’..?..call madam-lulu @ smackers-r-us..
;hit me with your rythmn stick..!..hit me…!..hit me..!’
‘this hurts me more than it hurts you’..
‘you’ll thank me for this one day’..
any more..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 20th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
hurf..by noon..i’ll have done yoga..
and a days worth of hot/toasty news-items..
on http://www.whoar.co.nz/
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz
November 20th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Here is a thought Phillu, this might have more to do with joe citizen not being represented in government than child abuse.
November 20th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
In answer to Repton’s further question at 4.42… What the fuck is this, 20 questions? Or are you some reincarnation of Socrates?
It sounds like you are asking what I would do if I was more or less a dictator of NZ.
Well first of all I’d have Philu subjected to shock treatment to bring him back to the real world… Then I would seek unification with Australia, because I think NZ is too small to have viable, high-living-standard modern economy.
Seriously, on Islam, and as you have suggested immigration, we will for a few minutes assume I don’t want merger with Australia and am the head honcho after a coup.
As Aotearoa big kahuna I would set an immigration policy heavily biased to economic needs. I would bias it heavily towards skilled, and preferably very highly skilled, highly educated migrants, with health that wasn’t going to impose a burden on the welfare/health system. I would seek a way to attract ambitious, work-oriented people rather than lifestylers.
I would link number of migrants closely to economic need. The economy would be much more highly export focused, and jobs and thus migrants would be linked closely to our export sector.
In the unlikely event that there was such a huge pool of such highly educated, highly skilled talent to draw on, I would require reasonable skill in English, the main language of the country. I would prefer a mix of sources to make assimilation easier. There would be tighter controls on immigration of extended family members. This is because though I favour an ethnically tolerant country, I favour this in parallel with assimilation, American style.
I wouldn’t tolerate migrants who threatened internal violence, be they Wahhabis, Doukhobors, neo-Nazis or whatever. I would rescind citizenship of naturalised citizens who failed to live law abiding lives.
Refugee intakes would be minimal – less than now. I would use foreign aid to help refugees in their own countries or in neighbouring countries of their own.
The highly elitist policy on migration, where the elite are the most skilled and most highly educated does not entail any special requirements for Islamic immigration.
If, instead of dictator, I were the Prime Minister as you suggest, with a twin brother as Minister of Foreign Affairs, I would still do my best to steer immigration to the upper end of skilled people, but of course heed political realities and demands. I would put MFAT on a tight leash and orient 98 per cent towards trade.
Within this political reality, I would try to encourage debate on migration policy, so the majority of citizens would have the chance to approve and medium and long-term ethnic change, and also to get a feeling for what change and rate of change was acceptable to citizens.
Sorry Repton, but addressing Islam would not be a dominating part of the Jack5 and Jack6 twinship administration.
November 20th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
I’m still waiting for some point to all this.
I defend the right of Muslim countries to their religion and to self determination, which means we get out of there, stop killing or causing to be killed tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of Muslims in their own lands, all in the name of geo-political strategy that can be summed as: Why is our oil under their sand.
Or, in the case of Afghanistan (Pipelanistan), we are running our natural gas pipeline through your territory whether you like it or not.
I no more defend Muslim human rights abuses than those of China, Russia, or wherever. But demonising them, alienating them, killing them is not the path to enlightenment. Recognise their rights, protest by all means, but don’t use stereotypes to condemn over 1 billion people.
To the best of my knowledge, and correcting a rather excited comment the other day, European imperialism has blighted the Middle East since 1798. That’s 200 years, and we wonder why they haven’t developed more. They have just been too busy fighting us off.
All I’ve seen from Jack, Tom, RightNow, getstaffed, is their usual noise and filth. But if they have a better strategy, let’s hear it.
November 20th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
“i’ll be one of those jeering on the sideline..eh..?..)”
All you ever do.
Better watch out scumbag.
Last time you showed your face in public I hear you had to scuttle off like a cowardly rat.
November 20th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Grumpy at 4.50…sorry I’m not sure how we got to Ockers shooting Aboriginals for sport.
Luc Hansen at 5.24: you’re so down on European imperialism, perhaps you had better stuff off and give your chunk of the country back to the tangata whenua. The UN would probably give you a good job as a mediator in a Middle-East country. Go for it.
November 20th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
“..Last time you showed your face in public I hear you had to scuttle off like a cowardly rat..”
do tell..!
(this isn’t just another one of your ‘make-ups’..?..is it red..?..
you joker..!..you..!..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 20th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
are you planning on levering yrself out of your laze-y-boy..?
red..?
and taking the zimmer frame for a walk/shuffle up q st..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 20th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Puke subscribes to the Robert Fisk the West is to blame for everything School of political thought.
November 20th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
@getstaffed 2:25: Luc claims that anything he disagrees with is a distortion, and further, that anyone who writes something disagrees with is guilty of personal abuse
@Luc 3:51: getstaffed, what a pompous prat!
Glasshouses. Stones. Hypocrisy.
November 20th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Yeah, that’s what I hear them all complaining about in Dubai.
November 20th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Technically, I think progress in the Muslim world hit the wall in the wake of the Mongol invasions. Before then the medieval Muslim world was quite advanced, made brilliant progress in the fields of astronomy, mathematics (algebra anyone), medicine and political philosophy.
The Mongol invasions effectively split the old Abbasid caliphate into a Mongol (Ilkhanid) then Persian (12er Shi’te) area, based in Khurasan, and a more Sunni Turco-Arab area. The increase in military conflict caused a massive diversion of resources away from learning and culture. In Salah al-Din’s time, Egypt supported about 5000 professional cavalry (ghilman, or toassin). The 12th-13th C saw an expansion in hospitals and colleges (madras). By the Mameluke era in the 15th C, Egypt was supporting 40,000 professional cavalry and the taxation was oppressive. But such military expansion was necessary to confront the Mongol khanates.
Within that context however, the Muslim world still threatened eastern Europe. Hungary fell after Mohacs in the early 16th C, whilst major expeditions were still organised into the 17th C against Vienna (and the Hapsburg empire). The relationship between the Muslim world of the NE and Christian Europe is complex and multi-faceted. It is rather simplistic to label one side as more imperialistic that the other.
November 20th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
@ Jack5 again
Don’t worry, I’m just as down on Greek imperialism, Roman Imperialism, Ottoman imperialism, Chinese imperialism…but the most recent is, of course, European and I am European. And I might say, I’m damned glad to be European after what we have been up to for the last few centuries!
Still waiting to see what you want to do about Islam that’s different to what I advocate, which is, first and foremost, freedom from us.
November 20th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Chthoniid said…it is rather simplistic to label one side as more imperialistic that the other.
Have I missed something? Who said that?
November 20th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
I certainly don’t. If another culture or nation stones women to death for silly reasons or threatens the lives of others then they must be stopped. And if the coercion they require to stop is death then so be it.
Where we have the power we should sort this behaviour out. Just because it doesn’t directly affect me doesn’t make it acceptable.
The argument of being able to find crimes by others is rather silly, if a criminal identifies a wrong by another, it does not make either wrong ok. And if you say why fix some of the world instead of all of the world then you will never fix any of it.
Acceptance of barbarism is not cultural tolerance, it is turning the other cheek out of cowardice and indecision.
November 20th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Another typical getstaffed comment. Pick put an exception and make it the rule. Add Kuwait. Lots and lots of oil and relatively small population.
You make an art form out of sniping but never actually contribute anything meaningful, in my opinion.
By the way, Chthoniid, that’s a good contribution above, I should have added earlier.
November 20th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
OOH Sonny, Sonny, Sonny! Welcome!
Tell me, tell me do, you say they must be stopped, what do we do?
The Vietnam syndrome of destroying the village in order to save it?
November 20th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Luc, I just can be bothered with your hatred and bigotry. At one stage I took you seriously (even if not agreeing), but not now.
If anyone who expresses an opinion that you disagree with with to be lambasted with insults (c.f. “All I’ve seen from Jack, Tom, RightNow, getstaffed, is their usual noise and filth”, “The white supremacists here…”) then your ranting will just have to go unanswered.
Here’s a suggestion: Open your other eye and find fault where there is fault to be found (eg Islam’s mandated treatment of women) and then perhaps, just perhaps, you’ll be taken more seriously.
November 20th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
“If anyone who expresses an opinion that you disagree with with to be lambasted with insults (c.f. “All I’ve seen from Jack, Tom, RightNow, getstaffed, is their usual noise and filth”, “The white supremacists here…”) then your ranting will just have to go unanswered.”
Don’t be such a fucking wimp. Go after these arrogant sneering condescending bastards. They have no shame. You want them to keep winning? No. So go after them.
November 20th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Short memory phil? Read about it here. You will recall that you’re the ‘obnoxious ass‘ in the story.
The story concludes:
November 20th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Hey Puke, this one’s for you.
And as Omri Ceren points out:
November 20th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
*sigh* You’re right of couse red. It’s just sometimes I don’t have the time and/or energy to fight defensive battles, and in Luc’s case he is well read on Middle East history coupled with a creative imagination and a well honed revisionist translation ability. Jack5 continues to knowledgeably push back against his hatred, which is good.
November 20th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
this is for kkk…all the other god botherers..
and those who like to laugh..
it is the master..
george carlin
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/george-carlin-religion-is-bullshit/
just watched this .. again..
it is very funny..!
(and gets five stars ..and has had over 6 million views)
his rendition of the ten commandments .. down to one..
..is also worth seeking out..
in fact..anything by george carlin is worth seeking out..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 20th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Re getstaffed at 7.24….
If this guy Hansen’s first name is really “Luc” his problems may well stem from being teased through childhood by calls of “Lucy”.
It would also explain his threatening to run for teacher/mummy (Red Boris in the case of this thread) when the heat goes on.
November 20th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
big fan of anti-semitism are you stuffed..?
like ‘jew-jokes’..?
just sit and laugh along..?
d’ya..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 20th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
getstaffed said ” Here’s a suggestion: Open your other eye and find fault where there is fault to be found (eg Islam’s mandated treatment of women) and then perhaps, just perhaps, you’ll be taken more seriously.”
Open your own eyes and actually read what I write. Above you will find that I said find all religion foolish – I should have added tragic. I said, or thought I said, I dislike and reject much of Islam’s practices, not just the treatment of women. I wish they would disown the violence inherent in the Koran, but most Muslims do by their actions, anyway. I do not demonise over 1b people for the actions of a few. I support military action against Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups. I do not support military action against civilians.
I repeat, I uphold equal human rights for all, including the freedom from attack from their parents for Kiwi kids, and including Muslims.
Do you?
Now go ahead, find a tangent out of that.
November 20th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
C’mon Philu, have a laugh at yourself occasionally.
From your reported performance at the outing (Hurf Durf’s 7.11 link), what would happen if you were caught short at a border post between Israel and Palestine? You would pee yourself while you jigged from one leg to the other trying to decide whether to go to the Palestine WC or the Israel one.
November 20th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
So by the look of things Tony Blair is not going to be head of the world government. Another conspiracy will pop up to take it’s place no doubt.
November 20th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Labour’s just about ended its run in Britain, too. Election in May they reckon.
November 20th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
” It’s just sometimes I don’t have the time and/or energy to fight defensive battles, ”
Yep fair enuff tiger. I know what you mean. These leftist morons are probably all not working as well, so have time to spare.
But remember this-
Never defend. Always attack. Attack attack attack.
Let the Progressives know we are coming after them.
November 20th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
No Luc. You are a terminal apologist for Islam’s heinous value system. Only when cornered in a rate like a cage you do quickly jumble together a fictitious ’statement of belief’ like your 7:37 comment citing what you dislike (presumably hoping no one will actually read it…). That’s your ‘Personal Brand’ pal. Have the guts to admit it. I guess you’ll call this a tanget. Go right ahead.
Edit: Red – heh!
November 20th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Go tiger. Don’t forget to put your dentures in, especially the fangy ones. You’ll really get places by attacking the majority.
Attack (yawn) attack (yawn) attack (yawn) with nothing of substance. The wishy washy war. Nothing to defend.
November 20th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
and is that it..?..red..?
that’s as far as your thinking goes..?
empty..meet vacuous..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 20th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
getstaffed, you have simply fulfilled my expectations. Well done.
Now I think I have sussed out all the Muslim bashers here today and the only conclusion I can come to is that you are all seriously deluded. You equate my defence of Arabs and Muslim human rights, which we advocate for ourselves, to support for all they do. That is distortion, writ large.
Just what do you have against my suggestion that we get out of their lands? It would be instructive to hear.
But I won’t hold my breath. You and the others I have mentioned just don’t present a serious argument. It’s all totally destructive; nothing at all constructive.
Except Sonny. His option is genocide. At least he is upfront and doesn’t appear to cower behind a pseudonym.
Hurf, your point? Is it that because Hamas fire rockets, this justifies wholesale slaughter of civilians? Please answer.
By the way, I just watched a news item that showed Palestinians in Gaza stocking up on tinned and preserved food in anticipation of the next Israeli onslaught. They say they got caught by surprise last time, but they are already resigned to the next massacre. I wonder what Israel’s excuse will be this time, not that it really matters. Impunity comes with US protection in the Security Council.
Anyone want to change the subject and get back to where we started, morning sex?
November 20th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
Yeah well nothing like a dawnbreaker
November 20th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Haha, Delirium thinks he’s a majority. Cute.
They won’t stop there, clown, no matter how hard Fisk whines.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
Who would have thought: A racist man being given quarter by a racist party.
Pita: This is not a about a ‘disagreement’. This is about you condoning blatant racism from one of your representatives. Hang your head in shame.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
Getstaffed
Indeed. Soon after Luc turned up in early October, quoting Fisk, Finklestein, et al, I commented that:
And it has not changed. The lawyer F.E Smith – mostly known on this site for his passionate defense of the current criminal justice system (e.g not exactly a fire-breathing right-winger) – took Luc to the woodshed a few nights ago over his puddle-deep knowledge of the last 1000 years of Islamic history and the Crusades. I believe he applied the word “bigot”, which seemed entirely earned.
Today we witnessed the hilarity of the Pilger-driven “pipeline conspiracy” of 2001 – an idea so detached from reality that it never even gained traction in far-left groups inclined to believe it was possible.
But when Luc’s under debating pressure he’ll pull anything out of his arse.
From now on I’ll stick with mockery:
“The president of the ” Leader of the Free World” gloats over the impending revenge execution of a terrorist.”
Racist.
“Let’s ignore sex with young girls. Many many countries allow sex nowadays with girls as young as 13″
Misogynist – at a minimum.
“…I’m going to forward your comment to the Human Rights Commission for their opinion”
Liberal Progressive.
What I am defending is the
MuslimsSouth Africans right to work through their own issues, in their own lands.Bold Defender of Global Human Rights.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
And of course, there’s always the idea of Gazans not supporting Hamas thuggery – that they’re just “hostages” of Zionist aggression. Bollocks writ large. Always conveniently ignoring that the “mass slaughter” of Cast Lead was a few thousand out of a million people.
Billions of dollars of Western aid to “rebuild” – for what? So they could spend all that money on dozens of missiles? Imagine where Hamas would be if it weren’t for their Western water carriers.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
getstaffed,
Read the lines, Hone has leverage. He will not go independent as I thought.
Hone will crash anyone who stops him fro Supreme Leader of the Maori Party.
Little deal with Tainui and Hone will be President of Aotearoa.
In your dreams HARAWIRA, you racist germ
November 20th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
Luc, care to post up your full name, address and phone number? Or are you hypocritically cowering behind a pseudonym while attempting to belittle those that choose to keep their private details private?
Hint: ‘Luc Hansen’ doesn’t appear in Whitepages and your blog doesn’t have any personal details, save for an email address of luchansen@live.com. In the spirit of equal disclosure, mine is getstaffed@live.com , and my photo is here
November 20th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
What’s in the yellow bag? getstaffed
November 20th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
tom – your comment was well on the mark.
Steve – yes. Hone just says, rather undiplomatically, what most of the racist Maori party members think, but won’t say. At least he doesn’t try to cloak his racism is delicate political prose. Yellow bag has yummy Boerewors
November 20th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
If I dare reverse that political prose I get branded
November 20th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
A bit late in the day to add some “breaking news”, but I couldn’t hold back…
Climate scam busted wide open!
Someone has hacked/released 62MB of private correspondence and files from the climate alarmists at East Anglia’s CRU.
It was uploaded to a Russian FTP server, and it is spreading around file-sharing sites.
Now their scheming and data-fudging is no longer hearsay. You can see them discussing it.
This is big!
The National Examiner’s article on this is here. http://is.gd/4ZqiI
http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7806 has more comments and quotes from the leaked correspondence.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
Ross:
Hahaha, the bastards! I hope this is real, this will cause public support for this con to plummet.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:54 pm
Ross, yes I’ve been digging on that today. There’s lots more to come on this
And in related news, the US ETS claims a significate victim: The Columbia Falls Aluminum Company in Montana (once the largest in the world) has shut down its aluminum production because it cannot purchase the necessary electrical power to continue its operations
Hurf – don’t count on it. Our ‘elected’ dictators will simply push ahead despite any increased criticism. Too much as stake for them personally.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
For General Debate tomorrow:
Phool, go fuck yourself.
Devil dodgers can do the same, you wankers need a room to spit the religious bullshit into.
Yeah you you you.
Never has there been so much bloodshed as in the kingdom of God.
Stick it where the Global Sun don’t shine
November 20th, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Ross et al, re that climate data being hacked:
November 20th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
From Hurf: Always conveniently ignoring that the “mass slaughter” of Cast Lead was a few thousand out of a million people.
So Hurf, what’s your definition of mass slaughter? Is 3000 dead, out of around 320 million, in the Twin Towers mass slaughter? Was 168 dead in the Oklahoma bombing , mass slaughter? Hell, was 5 killed in the Bain family in Dunedin mass slaughter? In my book, yes to all. Maybe to you only if you were one of the victims. It’s always just so much easier when it never happens to us, isn’t it?
But it is refreshing that you do see the Zionist aggression that is always evident. I think, in fact, that that term is becoming increasingly passe. Over 50% of non-Arab Israelis are Israel born. I have no idea of the proportion of Palestinians outside Israel born since 1948, or even 1967 (Khalid Meshal vividly remembers the trek into the West Bank from his centuries old village to escape Israeli bullets), but it must be much, much higher. These future generations will one day usher in peace and coexistence and I wish them all well.
From Tom: The lawyer F.E Smith – mostly known on this site for his passionate defense of the current criminal justice system (e.g not exactly a fire-breathing right-winger) – took Luc to the woodshed a few nights ago over his puddle-deep knowledge of the last 1000 years of Islamic history and the Crusades.
Yep, too many wines that night and I got sprung good and proper. But what struck me is that that is all your passionate lawyer got me on: a misspeak, as Hillary would say. I feel pretty good about that
Bigot: from Wikipedia “The correct use of the term requires the elements of obstinacy, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing devotion.” If advocacy of equal human rights for all, including mad fundamentalist Pastors and Mullahs, so be it. But maybe you should look in the mirror. it’s called projection.
And Tom, yes, I supported the right of South Africans to work through their own problems, in their own lands. The majority South Africans. Like 30,000,000 to 3,000,000 majority. Yes, black South Africans.
getstaffed, don’t you worry, I am sure if you were a debt collector you would find me, no problem. If you really want reassurance about my bona fides, ask DPF to contact me so he can then set your little mind at rest while retaining security for my family.
Have I missed anyone?
November 20th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
National Examiner – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
17 Oct 2009 … The National Examiner is a supermarket tabloid owned by the American Media Corporation. Like other tabloids, its contents have often come …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Examiner – Cached – Similar –
And TBR…ah, ANDREI!
Why am I not surprised…
November 20th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
Wow ‘Luc’.
You claim to be posting under your own name, while hiding behind a pseudonym. You are the only commenter I’ve seen here at Kiwiblog who’s lied like this.
You win the brazen hypocrite of the month award.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:22 pm
Considering that most of the people involved in that were killed, whereas most of the people in Gaza were not killed, those are three pretty bad examples.
And if by “Zionist aggression,” you mean “Israel’s right to self-defence” then yes I do see it.
Blaming dem immigrunts? How progressive.
How cute, Puke wants to retain security for his family. Of course, people in Beersheba aren’t afforded that luxury because they’re racist imperialist Zionists.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
What do you call a fly without any wings?
November 20th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
A walk!
November 20th, 2009 at 11:35 pm
getstaffed
that’s called projection. It’s a term used in psychology.
Hurf, what are you saying. That everyone, including women and children, in Gaza were a target?
The people in Beersheba could try what we are doing over here – return land to the indigenous people.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:36 pm
Luc, no it’s called lying. That’s a term used in every day life.
November 20th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Chthoniid (718) Vote: Add rating 20 Subtract rating 0 Says:
November 20th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Just a quick couple of shots before the mayhem begins.
********************************************
You gotta admire the foresight
November 20th, 2009 at 11:39 pm
getstaffed, you really should getreal
But, if you are correct, I wish the IRD would send those demands to the real Luc Hansen!
November 20th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
In a warzone, potentially everyone is a target. The IDF’s attempts to minimise civilian casualties in an Egyptian-created ghetto are admirable and should be congratulated.
Oh yes? Does that include the land on which your house is situated?
And, of course, after you show them the deeds you’ll more than approve when the Army of the People of the Land start firing missiles at your house because, after all, they’re fighting for justice!
November 20th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
Hurf said: The IDF’s attempts to minimise civilian casualties in an Egyptian-created ghetto are admirable.
Whatever delusion takes your fancy. Opening the war by killing traffic cops and kids leaving school. The modern napalm, white phosphorous, used against schools, hospitals, UN buildings. Have you actually read any of the Goldstone report? It takes a strong stomach.
Gaza has actually existed since time immemorial. Modern Egypt has never claimed ownership of the land or granted the people Egyptian citizenship. Unlike Jordan and the West Bank, it never annexed Gaza after 1948.
And unlike Israel and Palestinians, we have arrived at a peaceful process of reconciliation and reparation with Maori, so long as we continue that process for as long as it takes.
And also unlike you, I don’t see the issue of historic Palestine as an either/or scenario. History is replete with examples of former bitter enemies reconciling.
Peace be upon you, comrade.
November 21st, 2009 at 12:02 am
The Goldstone Report? Sorry, I know agitprop when I see it. And considering the UN is made up of third world shitholes, much like “Palestine,” I have no truck with such organisations.
Of course it has.
November 21st, 2009 at 12:10 am
You seem to be in a reasonable mood tonight, Hurf, for you. So may I ask what is your preferred solution to the Israel/Palestine debacle?
November 21st, 2009 at 12:13 am
Oh please. Smith referenced merely the last of several of your ignorant rants about Crusades vs. Jihad and the 1095 date, all of which were equally hysterical in the style of your hero Fisk. Each of those were rants several sentences long. A “misspeak” is when a word is misplaced (someone meant Iran not Iraq).
But why should I be surprised. I wasted time checking one of your rebuttal links to a story in the JPost and I wrote up the results last night in a quick post. But since you seem to read little of your material or links, let alone the responses, I’ll put it up to you again.
November 21st, 2009 at 12:21 am
Israel retains its current borders and also absorbs the Golan Heights. Gaza is annexed by Egypt, West Bank by Jordan. Both countries take over administration and security of their new territories. Egyptian and Jordanian security forces and police take over. Direct rule by central authorities is enacted. The old leadership is purged, the terrorists among them arrested and dealt with, and they inject (with US, EU and Israeli financial support if proven to be 100% abiding by these rules) economic and infrastructure development into the new territories. Families shown to have no connection to Pali terrorism given financial incentives to move into Egypt or Jordan proper to reduce the population density. Local government gradually enacted if extremism seen to be properly expunged.
These are just off the top of my head. If done properly, Israel/Palestine won’t be an issue in five years.
November 21st, 2009 at 12:24 am
If done properly, Palestine won’t be in five years.
November 21st, 2009 at 12:26 am
Palestine hasn’t been viable for sixty years. They had their chance for statehood. They blew it.
November 21st, 2009 at 12:26 am
Thanks Tom. I stand by my postings except for that one sentence. Tell FE Smith to by all means return. There are three sides to every story, as we know. I only ever lay claim to one.
And we are supposed to believe that a Basiji militia member just happened to contact a JPost reporter, or vice versa.
You may believe in fairies, I don’t.
I believe lots of bad things about Muslim and Iranian practices but nothing emanating from JPost. Did it make Haaretz?
November 21st, 2009 at 12:27 am
Thanks Hurf
But they are still there, so what next?
November 21st, 2009 at 12:32 am
Sorry Hurf, I missed your earlier post.
November 21st, 2009 at 12:39 am
The great profit Algore (All credits be to him)™ had a problem with his new book.
The back/front cover opens out to show a picture of the Earth, complete with hurricanes and Arctic ice as shown in the first photo, which is from the Amazon press release. One hurricane and plenty of Arctic ice.
Now the great profit Algore (All credits be to him)™ must have decided that the photo needed some work before the public release, so out came photoshop and, as shown in the second photo, lots of scary hurricanes and, hey, where’s the Arctic ice?!? BTW, hurricanes are at a 30 years low positively confounding those who claim they are somehow connect to CO2 emmissions.
The great profit Algore (All credits be to him)™ is a fraud, a charlatan and is completely bereft of integrity.
November 21st, 2009 at 12:47 am
There are just a couple of problems with your scenario, Hurf.
First, there is the overwhelming international consensus of the two state solution based on the June 4 1967 armistice lines.
Second, Egypt has never shown any interest in annexing Gaza, and Jordan has agreed to borders with Israel and relinquished all claims to the West Bank.
I am not getting into the rest of your post because the points I have raised make them irrelevant.
My final point is this: Palestinians, in spite of the constant Israeli occupation, dispossession and oppression, are hanging in there. It took Maori in NZ a long time to start to get redress and I think you will find Palestinians just as resilient.
November 21st, 2009 at 12:51 am
I’m basing it on what’s most practical and sensible, not on what’s “fair” or “just.”
As for the Palis, 12.26am sums it up best. They’re only “hanging in there” because Israel has chosen to exercise phenomenal restraint and haven’t kicked all of them out of there for being incapable of governing them sensibly and because Egypt and Jordan has seen what happens when a shitload of Palis move in (see Lebanon and Jordan in the 1970s) to know they want them to keep the fuck away. So the best thing for both? Keep them locked up in a pair of ghettoes. That’s politics for you.
November 21st, 2009 at 12:56 am
getstaffed, what is the basis for your assertion and straw man argument?
This is from Pew research:
Is the frequency of hurricanes increasing?
Globally (not just in the North Atlantic), there is an average of about 90 tropical storms every year. According to the 2007 Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC-AR4), globally “[t]here is no clear trend in the annual numbers [i.e. frequency] of tropical cyclones.”
However, in the North Atlantic there has been a clear increase in the frequency of tropical storms and major hurricanes. From 1850-1990, the long-term average number of tropical storms was about 10, including about 5 hurricanes. For the period of 1998-2007, the average is about 15 tropical storms per year, including about 8 hurricanes. This increase in frequency correlates strongly with the rise in North Atlantic sea surface temperature, and recent peer-reviewed scientific studies link this temperature increase to global warming.
There is an ongoing scientific debate about the link between increased North Atlantic hurricane activity and global warming. The 2007 report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change rates the probability of such a link as “more likely than not.” (end quote)
If Al Gore presented “more likely than not” as a cast iron certainty then he is certainly in the wrong. But so are you, it seems.
The IPCC say there is no direct link between specific weather events and global warming but, over time, trends emerge consistent with global warming projections.
November 21st, 2009 at 1:05 am
But Hurf,
South African whites tried that and look what happened there.
Israel has not exercised “phenomenal restraint” as you say; rather, it is constrained by the international community from completing the ethnic cleansing/genocide it really wishes for. And that constraint will always be a constant.
The periodic massacres of Lebanese and Palestinians Israel is so fond of will only serve to increase the resolve of the international community and when the US finally swings into line, Israel will have to get real.
However, I expect a lot more Arab blood to flow before this is resolved, so sad.
Let’s just agree to disagree and move on.
November 21st, 2009 at 1:18 am
Israel is not South Africa, no matter how much you progressives want it to be.
Also completing something implies that it has started. I hope you have some evidence for that phenomenal claim or I shall be forwarding your comments to the Human Rights Commission.