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	<title>Comments on: General Debate 2 November 2009</title>
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	<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html</link>
	<description>DPF&#039;s Kiwiblog - Fomenting Happy Mischief since 2003</description>
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		<title>By: Hurf Durf</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627174</link>
		<dc:creator>Hurf Durf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:46:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627174</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s nice. &quot;Social&quot; justice? Redistribution of wealth? How is that sense? Tingly? Or is it more of a throb?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s nice. &#8220;Social&#8221; justice? Redistribution of wealth? How is that sense? Tingly? Or is it more of a throb?</p>
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		<title>By: Luc Hansen</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627173</link>
		<dc:creator>Luc Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627173</guid>
		<description>Maybe its escaped you, Hurf, but I do have a sense of justice as well.

But by all means, just keep living up to your pseudonym.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe its escaped you, Hurf, but I do have a sense of justice as well.</p>
<p>But by all means, just keep living up to your pseudonym.</p>
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		<title>By: Hurf Durf</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627169</link>
		<dc:creator>Hurf Durf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:03:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627169</guid>
		<description>Just as well the world &quot;majority&quot; view is worthless then.  If it wasn&#039;t, everywhere would be socialist and 90% of my money would&#039;ve flowed into the third world.

Awesome revisionism by the way, 10/10. Keep feeling the need to fight the power just because of your ancestry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just as well the world &#8220;majority&#8221; view is worthless then.  If it wasn&#8217;t, everywhere would be socialist and 90% of my money would&#8217;ve flowed into the third world.</p>
<p>Awesome revisionism by the way, 10/10. Keep feeling the need to fight the power just because of your ancestry.</p>
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		<title>By: Luc Hansen</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627165</link>
		<dc:creator>Luc Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627165</guid>
		<description>Yes, we are as one on this!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, we are as one on this!</p>
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		<title>By: getstaffed</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627160</link>
		<dc:creator>getstaffed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627160</guid>
		<description>Well knock me over with a feather… here’s something we agree on Luc: Give more resources to education and work to lift the bar. 

The issue is, sadly, that the social and economic payback period for any genuine initiatives in this area is way beyond the aspirational lifespan of politicians (of all shades) whose most pressing need is to buy their way back into office every three years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well knock me over with a feather… here’s something we agree on Luc: Give more resources to education and work to lift the bar. </p>
<p>The issue is, sadly, that the social and economic payback period for any genuine initiatives in this area is way beyond the aspirational lifespan of politicians (of all shades) whose most pressing need is to buy their way back into office every three years.</p>
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		<title>By: Luc Hansen</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627156</link>
		<dc:creator>Luc Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627156</guid>
		<description>the above is for getstaffed</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the above is for getstaffed</p>
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		<title>By: Luc Hansen</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627155</link>
		<dc:creator>Luc Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:26:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627155</guid>
		<description>I think you should be conversant with social implications of policies you advocate.  I gave you a hint in my earlier post.  It&#039;s all very well to talk principles but you must be aware of facts on the ground.

It was always to Bolger&#039;s credit that he kneecapped Richardson and Shipley when he saw the dreadful social havoc they were causing: do you remember the cash registers in our emergency rooms?   That was before Eftpos!

I pick on education because it is topical right now and both you and I have an interest in that area.  It&#039;s interesting to see how you twisted my post.  New Zealand should be proud that it punches above its weight in the achievement rankings in the OECD, but if you determine, for example, that a certain percentage of GDP be fixed for education, then you are in danger of lowering that ranking.  I was being facetious with my suggestion of lowering achievement levels, as I suspect you well know.

Our so-called long tail is only relative to our three companion top ranking nations and they all have one thing in common - a lower wealth gap between the rich and the poor.  This is achieved by directing more resources to the poor.  And the OECD recommends that we do this specifically in education to reduce the tail.  Note, not take from the achievers, but put EXTRA resources into the non-achievers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you should be conversant with social implications of policies you advocate.  I gave you a hint in my earlier post.  It&#8217;s all very well to talk principles but you must be aware of facts on the ground.</p>
<p>It was always to Bolger&#8217;s credit that he kneecapped Richardson and Shipley when he saw the dreadful social havoc they were causing: do you remember the cash registers in our emergency rooms?   That was before Eftpos!</p>
<p>I pick on education because it is topical right now and both you and I have an interest in that area.  It&#8217;s interesting to see how you twisted my post.  New Zealand should be proud that it punches above its weight in the achievement rankings in the OECD, but if you determine, for example, that a certain percentage of GDP be fixed for education, then you are in danger of lowering that ranking.  I was being facetious with my suggestion of lowering achievement levels, as I suspect you well know.</p>
<p>Our so-called long tail is only relative to our three companion top ranking nations and they all have one thing in common &#8211; a lower wealth gap between the rich and the poor.  This is achieved by directing more resources to the poor.  And the OECD recommends that we do this specifically in education to reduce the tail.  Note, not take from the achievers, but put EXTRA resources into the non-achievers.</p>
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		<title>By: Luc Hansen</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627152</link>
		<dc:creator>Luc Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:10:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627152</guid>
		<description>Hurf&#039;s been busy.  I just noticed his  9:26pm message.

I did respond to that letter.  

First, let&#039;s look at this statement of Dr Brooks:

&quot;I spend so much time on this point because the acceptance of the partition by the Jews and its rejection by the Arabs is the fundamental cause of the conflict even today. If the Arabs had accepted the UN plan as did the Jews, there would be a Palestinian state today.&quot; 

Why would Palestinians accept a takeover of their land by Europeans fleeing European persecution?  The whole idea is nonsensical.  But, of course, it&#039;s what has happened.  And if Israel is so keen on UNGA resolutions, what about 194, 273, recommending return of Palestinian refugees and UNSC 242 ordering a return to the pre-June 1967 armistice lines?  And the hundreds of UNGA resolutions since recommending Israel stops oppressing Palestinians, and the many, many Security Council resolutions which would have been passed except for the US veto.

My view is the world&#039;s majority view, Hurf.

Then look at the earlier statement, that historic Palestine was split into Transjordan and Palestine.  The fact that Britain was granted the mandate over both lands and chose to split the mandate does not mean that historic Palestine was ever unified with Transjordan.  Zwartz and Brooks very cleverly insert this into the Question of Palestine to muddy the waters.  

The Jordan River was only ever an unofficial border until the British imposed one there to reserve historic Palestine for the European Jews. Under the Ottoman Empire, Tranjordan and Palestine were provinces, each with their own representation in the eventual Ottoman parliament. 

As for Dr Brooks rebuttal that he was comfortable using the term Palestinian, well, I had not seen any evidence of that until I raised the issue.  I&#039;m quite proud of that :-)

These days, since the 2002 Arab League offer that assured Israel of peace with the Arab world, and the efective abandonment of Palestine by the Arab states, the Question of Palestine is now truly a conflict between Palestinians and Israel.

Finally, who started the war in 1948?  We know now that the Jews in Palestine were ethnically cleansing Palestinians from around Nov 1947 (Morris, Pappe, Segev etc).  We also know that the Arab states did not want a confrontation with the west.  But the unrest on the streets was such that a virtual mercenary force (except for the Jordanian army, which had prior agreement with Israel to take the West Bank and East Jerusalem) was sent to protect the Palestinians.

This is a fact.  By May 1948, Israel had already expelled Palestinians even from areas which were intended by UNGA 181 to form part of the proposed Palestinian state.

And this is another fact.  UNGA 181 did not envisage any population movements.  Palestinians were to stay where they lived, and choose whether to become Israeli or Palestinian citizens.  That&#039;s how stupid 181 was. If you don&#039;t believe me, just read the resolution!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hurf&#8217;s been busy.  I just noticed his  9:26pm message.</p>
<p>I did respond to that letter.  </p>
<p>First, let&#8217;s look at this statement of Dr Brooks:</p>
<p>&#8220;I spend so much time on this point because the acceptance of the partition by the Jews and its rejection by the Arabs is the fundamental cause of the conflict even today. If the Arabs had accepted the UN plan as did the Jews, there would be a Palestinian state today.&#8221; </p>
<p>Why would Palestinians accept a takeover of their land by Europeans fleeing European persecution?  The whole idea is nonsensical.  But, of course, it&#8217;s what has happened.  And if Israel is so keen on UNGA resolutions, what about 194, 273, recommending return of Palestinian refugees and UNSC 242 ordering a return to the pre-June 1967 armistice lines?  And the hundreds of UNGA resolutions since recommending Israel stops oppressing Palestinians, and the many, many Security Council resolutions which would have been passed except for the US veto.</p>
<p>My view is the world&#8217;s majority view, Hurf.</p>
<p>Then look at the earlier statement, that historic Palestine was split into Transjordan and Palestine.  The fact that Britain was granted the mandate over both lands and chose to split the mandate does not mean that historic Palestine was ever unified with Transjordan.  Zwartz and Brooks very cleverly insert this into the Question of Palestine to muddy the waters.  </p>
<p>The Jordan River was only ever an unofficial border until the British imposed one there to reserve historic Palestine for the European Jews. Under the Ottoman Empire, Tranjordan and Palestine were provinces, each with their own representation in the eventual Ottoman parliament. </p>
<p>As for Dr Brooks rebuttal that he was comfortable using the term Palestinian, well, I had not seen any evidence of that until I raised the issue.  I&#8217;m quite proud of that <img src='http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>These days, since the 2002 Arab League offer that assured Israel of peace with the Arab world, and the efective abandonment of Palestine by the Arab states, the Question of Palestine is now truly a conflict between Palestinians and Israel.</p>
<p>Finally, who started the war in 1948?  We know now that the Jews in Palestine were ethnically cleansing Palestinians from around Nov 1947 (Morris, Pappe, Segev etc).  We also know that the Arab states did not want a confrontation with the west.  But the unrest on the streets was such that a virtual mercenary force (except for the Jordanian army, which had prior agreement with Israel to take the West Bank and East Jerusalem) was sent to protect the Palestinians.</p>
<p>This is a fact.  By May 1948, Israel had already expelled Palestinians even from areas which were intended by UNGA 181 to form part of the proposed Palestinian state.</p>
<p>And this is another fact.  UNGA 181 did not envisage any population movements.  Palestinians were to stay where they lived, and choose whether to become Israeli or Palestinian citizens.  That&#8217;s how stupid 181 was. If you don&#8217;t believe me, just read the resolution!</p>
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		<title>By: OECD rank 22 kiwi</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627144</link>
		<dc:creator>OECD rank 22 kiwi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 09:49:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627144</guid>
		<description>Prince William is coming to New Zealand in January 2010 for an Official visit because of an invite from the New Zealand Government.

Interest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prince William is coming to New Zealand in January 2010 for an Official visit because of an invite from the New Zealand Government.</p>
<p>Interest.</p>
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		<title>By: getstaffed</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627143</link>
		<dc:creator>getstaffed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 09:44:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627143</guid>
		<description>Sorry Luc. It&#039;s not a wimpy response, just not the response you wanted. You asked for a details analysis of social implications of changes to public spending. I&#039;m not in a position to give you that, neither are you in a position to furnish me/us with such details. I am in a position of offer opinion on principles, and I did that.

As for educational outcomes [odd that you&#039;d dive into one area of detail, while demanding that others offer holistic analysis], if you&#039;re happy with average achievement, and by inference are happy to let the &#039;long tail&#039; (yes, that&#039;s what it&#039;s called!) wallow in underachievement then your brand of humanity needs some work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Luc. It&#8217;s not a wimpy response, just not the response you wanted. You asked for a details analysis of social implications of changes to public spending. I&#8217;m not in a position to give you that, neither are you in a position to furnish me/us with such details. I am in a position of offer opinion on principles, and I did that.</p>
<p>As for educational outcomes [odd that you'd dive into one area of detail, while demanding that others offer holistic analysis], if you&#8217;re happy with average achievement, and by inference are happy to let the &#8216;long tail&#8217; (yes, that&#8217;s what it&#8217;s called!) wallow in underachievement then your brand of humanity needs some work.</p>
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		<title>By: Luc Hansen</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627138</link>
		<dc:creator>Luc Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 09:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627138</guid>
		<description>getstaffed, that&#039;s a wimpy response.

Surely the first requirement of a government is to address need.  Ameliorating that need by long term policies should follow.  

But you can&#039;t just stick a flag in the dirt and say we will always spend this much on welfare, this much on education, this much on the armed services etc etc because you don&#039;t know what&#039;s around the corner. 

And speaking of education, in light of the fact that our education outcomes, according to the OECD, are far in excess of what could be expected in view of our actual spending, should we reduce that spending and lower our outcomes to an average?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>getstaffed, that&#8217;s a wimpy response.</p>
<p>Surely the first requirement of a government is to address need.  Ameliorating that need by long term policies should follow.  </p>
<p>But you can&#8217;t just stick a flag in the dirt and say we will always spend this much on welfare, this much on education, this much on the armed services etc etc because you don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s around the corner. </p>
<p>And speaking of education, in light of the fact that our education outcomes, according to the OECD, are far in excess of what could be expected in view of our actual spending, should we reduce that spending and lower our outcomes to an average?</p>
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		<title>By: Luc Hansen</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627133</link>
		<dc:creator>Luc Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 09:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627133</guid>
		<description>Jack5

Seems logical to me.  Law of unintended consequences strikes again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack5</p>
<p>Seems logical to me.  Law of unintended consequences strikes again.</p>
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		<title>By: Luc Hansen</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627132</link>
		<dc:creator>Luc Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 09:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627132</guid>
		<description>Cheers Hurf

can you enlarge on the logical disconnect?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cheers Hurf</p>
<p>can you enlarge on the logical disconnect?</p>
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		<title>By: Hurf Durf</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627128</link>
		<dc:creator>Hurf Durf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 09:13:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627128</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;As a Kiwi of European ancestry, I have a sense of responsibility and shame for the dispossession and ongoing oppression of Palestinians at the hands of Europeans,&lt;/i&gt;

Bahahaahahahaha. My Gawwwwwwwwwwd, Puke. You really do revel in this guilt-ridden victim junk, don&#039;t you? I love that massive logical disconnect, too. Phenomenal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>As a Kiwi of European ancestry, I have a sense of responsibility and shame for the dispossession and ongoing oppression of Palestinians at the hands of Europeans,</i></p>
<p>Bahahaahahahaha. My Gawwwwwwwwwwd, Puke. You really do revel in this guilt-ridden victim junk, don&#8217;t you? I love that massive logical disconnect, too. Phenomenal.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack5</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627124</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack5</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 09:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627124</guid>
		<description>Further to my 8.14 post and Luc&#039;s 8.20 comment on it, I&#039;ve done a bit of digging, and anyone interested in the problems wind farms can cause for air traffic radar might find the following link worth while:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/5383658/Wind-farms-could-pose-danger-to-planes-without-new-air-traffic-control-radar-system.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further to my 8.14 post and Luc&#8217;s 8.20 comment on it, I&#8217;ve done a bit of digging, and anyone interested in the problems wind farms can cause for air traffic radar might find the following link worth while:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/5383658/Wind-farms-could-pose-danger-to-planes-without-new-air-traffic-control-radar-system.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/5383658/Wind-farms-could-pose-danger-to-planes-without-new-air-traffic-control-radar-system.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: thedavincimode</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627121</link>
		<dc:creator>thedavincimode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:58:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627121</guid>
		<description>Sonny B

&quot;some of them are hopelessly clueless and think that Robbie Williams is the greatest musician alive&quot;

I&#039;m sorry Sonny, but there goes both sides of the global warming argument right there.

I think I&#039;ll just ask the milkman.  Or maybe the next Iraqi taxi driver who just happens to have a degree in civil engineering or medicine but whom, by all accounts, can only build roads and bridges or diagnose illness if there seems to be a bit of sand swirling about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sonny B</p>
<p>&#8220;some of them are hopelessly clueless and think that Robbie Williams is the greatest musician alive&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry Sonny, but there goes both sides of the global warming argument right there.</p>
<p>I think I&#8217;ll just ask the milkman.  Or maybe the next Iraqi taxi driver who just happens to have a degree in civil engineering or medicine but whom, by all accounts, can only build roads and bridges or diagnose illness if there seems to be a bit of sand swirling about.</p>
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		<title>By: getstaffed</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627119</link>
		<dc:creator>getstaffed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627119</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;getstaffed, why don’t you tell us what you would cut in govt spending&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Wrong approach. Decide a reasonable level of public spending as a % of GDP, and then prioritise actual need (as opposed to current areas of spend) and then apportion resources appropriately. 

If that&#039;s too hard for you then perhaps you could just &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/10/tax_working_group_update_3.html#comment-614953&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;look at these areas of public spending&lt;/a&gt; and make a decision of what to fund and what to discontinue.

Or we could continue down the socialist path of ever increasing spending against a backdrop of reduced tax take and productive businesses/people moving offshore.

So a few approaches. Take your pick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>getstaffed, why don’t you tell us what you would cut in govt spending</p></blockquote>
<p>Wrong approach. Decide a reasonable level of public spending as a % of GDP, and then prioritise actual need (as opposed to current areas of spend) and then apportion resources appropriately. </p>
<p>If that&#8217;s too hard for you then perhaps you could just <a href="http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/10/tax_working_group_update_3.html#comment-614953" rel="nofollow">look at these areas of public spending</a> and make a decision of what to fund and what to discontinue.</p>
<p>Or we could continue down the socialist path of ever increasing spending against a backdrop of reduced tax take and productive businesses/people moving offshore.</p>
<p>So a few approaches. Take your pick.</p>
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		<title>By: Luc Hansen</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627118</link>
		<dc:creator>Luc Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627118</guid>
		<description>Thank you Sonny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Sonny.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Sonny Blount</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627117</link>
		<dc:creator>Sonny Blount</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627117</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt; until I played her the long version of Hallelujah. I’ve been trying to wean her off her love affair with Lenny &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Excellent choice of music BTW.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p> until I played her the long version of Hallelujah. I’ve been trying to wean her off her love affair with Lenny </p></blockquote>
<p>Excellent choice of music BTW.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Luc Hansen</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_2_november_2009.html#comment-627116</link>
		<dc:creator>Luc Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=37928#comment-627116</guid>
		<description>Meanwhile, in occupied Palestine, Netanyahu is proudly parading his apparent victory over Obama in getting him to agree to Israel finishing off 3000 housing units in the West Bank before supposedly freezing future settlements.  

To be honest, once Obama appointed Rahm Emmanuel as Chief of Staff, Palestinians should have given up any hope they held for Obama.  But they got seduced by the Cairo speech for a little while.

But now poor old Bibi is crying foul over Palestinians refusing to negotiate in the absence of an immediate freeze.  Oh dear, poor Bibi, being bullied by those Palis again! 

Bibi, of course, ignores the fact that even as Israel was supposedly negotiating a peace deal (Oslo) with a view to allowing Palestinians a viable state, it was expanding settlements at an ever increasing rate.  Palestinians now know that Israel would continue to use negotiations as a cover to expand settlements even more, with the ultimate aim of gradually forcing Palestinians to leave occupied Palestine altogether.

The problem for Israel is that, in the long term, this firm Palestinian policy is very, very ominous for Israel.  

Why?

For too long Palestinians have been seduced by extremists who dream of military victory over Israel.  This is just cuckoo land stuff, of course.  As the settlements expand, the option of a viable Palestinian state whithers on the vines.  This leaves only one option for Palestinians to pursue: the option of full citizenship in historic Palestine, from the river to the sea.  

If instead of futile oversized firecrackers Palestinians harnessed the modern vision of human rights and self determination, especially by organising an alternative narrative in the US to AIPAC, their struggle could be over within a couple of decades.

And they will have Bibi to thank for it.  

Israel, always the more powerful entity, has two choices.  It can accept the inevitability of a unified Palestine, or it can, as Benny Morris suggested Ben Gurion should have done, &quot;finish the job,&quot; and drive the Palestinians across the river, into Egypt, or into the sea, and suffer the opprobrium.

It would be a big gamble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meanwhile, in occupied Palestine, Netanyahu is proudly parading his apparent victory over Obama in getting him to agree to Israel finishing off 3000 housing units in the West Bank before supposedly freezing future settlements.  </p>
<p>To be honest, once Obama appointed Rahm Emmanuel as Chief of Staff, Palestinians should have given up any hope they held for Obama.  But they got seduced by the Cairo speech for a little while.</p>
<p>But now poor old Bibi is crying foul over Palestinians refusing to negotiate in the absence of an immediate freeze.  Oh dear, poor Bibi, being bullied by those Palis again! </p>
<p>Bibi, of course, ignores the fact that even as Israel was supposedly negotiating a peace deal (Oslo) with a view to allowing Palestinians a viable state, it was expanding settlements at an ever increasing rate.  Palestinians now know that Israel would continue to use negotiations as a cover to expand settlements even more, with the ultimate aim of gradually forcing Palestinians to leave occupied Palestine altogether.</p>
<p>The problem for Israel is that, in the long term, this firm Palestinian policy is very, very ominous for Israel.  </p>
<p>Why?</p>
<p>For too long Palestinians have been seduced by extremists who dream of military victory over Israel.  This is just cuckoo land stuff, of course.  As the settlements expand, the option of a viable Palestinian state whithers on the vines.  This leaves only one option for Palestinians to pursue: the option of full citizenship in historic Palestine, from the river to the sea.  </p>
<p>If instead of futile oversized firecrackers Palestinians harnessed the modern vision of human rights and self determination, especially by organising an alternative narrative in the US to AIPAC, their struggle could be over within a couple of decades.</p>
<p>And they will have Bibi to thank for it.  </p>
<p>Israel, always the more powerful entity, has two choices.  It can accept the inevitability of a unified Palestine, or it can, as Benny Morris suggested Ben Gurion should have done, &#8220;finish the job,&#8221; and drive the Palestinians across the river, into Egypt, or into the sea, and suffer the opprobrium.</p>
<p>It would be a big gamble.</p>
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