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	<title>Comments on: Jerusalem</title>
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	<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html</link>
	<description>DPF&#039;s Kiwiblog - Fomenting Happy Mischief since 2003</description>
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		<title>By: menace</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636528</link>
		<dc:creator>menace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636528</guid>
		<description>Haha, cool i remember most of the places in the photos.
Israel is a trip man, didn&#039;t think i would ever be going there but fate brought about that i did.
My first experience of Israelis was they are an arrogant noisey bunch, I was in india for 3 months once and they were everywhere. They all go traveling after there military time and india being one of the cheaper destinations coupled with the prevalence of cheap Charas(hashhish). They generally go around in big groups and were by standards of NZ or India were very noisey and arrogant.
But in my visit to Israel i go tot understand there culture and how it worked and htat they are actually quite fine people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haha, cool i remember most of the places in the photos.<br />
Israel is a trip man, didn&#8217;t think i would ever be going there but fate brought about that i did.<br />
My first experience of Israelis was they are an arrogant noisey bunch, I was in india for 3 months once and they were everywhere. They all go traveling after there military time and india being one of the cheaper destinations coupled with the prevalence of cheap Charas(hashhish). They generally go around in big groups and were by standards of NZ or India were very noisey and arrogant.<br />
But in my visit to Israel i go tot understand there culture and how it worked and htat they are actually quite fine people.</p>
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		<title>By: mavxp</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636509</link>
		<dc:creator>mavxp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:09:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636509</guid>
		<description>Exactly Brian... very convenient 

The temple mount (Mt Moriah) is actually thought to be the site (the &quot;rock&quot;) where Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac in obedience to God, but God halted him before the act, and provided a goat -caught in some brambles nearby, to be the proxy sacrifice for their sins - hence establishing the covenant between Abraham &amp; his descendents (Israelites/ Jews). This is the where the Holy of Holies was located on the temple mount, where God&#039;s spirit dwelt. The Western wall is the closest that Jews can currently approach this sacred location; hence it&#039;s significance to them. 

The interesting parallel for christians is the sacrifice of Jesus as God&#039;s son for all mankind, and as Jesus died the temple curtain separating the Holy of Holies from the rest of the mankind was split from top to bottom - God spirit had left, to return at Penticost. Jesus had briidged the gap between imperfect sinners (us) and the holiest of beings (God). OK, that&#039;s Christianity 101... here ends the lesson!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly Brian&#8230; very convenient </p>
<p>The temple mount (Mt Moriah) is actually thought to be the site (the &#8220;rock&#8221;) where Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac in obedience to God, but God halted him before the act, and provided a goat -caught in some brambles nearby, to be the proxy sacrifice for their sins &#8211; hence establishing the covenant between Abraham &amp; his descendents (Israelites/ Jews). This is the where the Holy of Holies was located on the temple mount, where God&#8217;s spirit dwelt. The Western wall is the closest that Jews can currently approach this sacred location; hence it&#8217;s significance to them. </p>
<p>The interesting parallel for christians is the sacrifice of Jesus as God&#8217;s son for all mankind, and as Jesus died the temple curtain separating the Holy of Holies from the rest of the mankind was split from top to bottom &#8211; God spirit had left, to return at Penticost. Jesus had briidged the gap between imperfect sinners (us) and the holiest of beings (God). OK, that&#8217;s Christianity 101&#8230; here ends the lesson!</p>
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		<title>By: BroadArrow</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636445</link>
		<dc:creator>BroadArrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:15:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636445</guid>
		<description>Are you sure that last photo isn&#039;t in the suk in the Muslim quarter of the old city? Arab East Jerusalem is outside the old city to the east...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you sure that last photo isn&#8217;t in the suk in the Muslim quarter of the old city? Arab East Jerusalem is outside the old city to the east&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Smaller</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636426</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Smaller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 18:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636426</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The original temple was on the Temple Mount, which is the holiest site in Judaism as it is taught as the place where God created Adam. It is also sacred to Islam as the site where Muhammed ascended to heaven.

&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Conveniently Mohammed never actually had to go to Jerusalem - he did it all in a dream.  Handy way to lay claim to the most important city of your two biggest rival religions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The original temple was on the Temple Mount, which is the holiest site in Judaism as it is taught as the place where God created Adam. It is also sacred to Islam as the site where Muhammed ascended to heaven.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Conveniently Mohammed never actually had to go to Jerusalem &#8211; he did it all in a dream.  Handy way to lay claim to the most important city of your two biggest rival religions.</p>
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		<title>By: simpleton</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636407</link>
		<dc:creator>simpleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636407</guid>
		<description>The only thing the Qur’an has to say about it is this the first verse of sura 17, which says that Allah took Muhammad from “the Sacred Mosque” in Mecca “to the farthest [al-aqsa] Mosque.” There was no mosque in Jerusalem at this time, so the “farthest” mosque probably wasn’t really the one that now bears that name in Jerusalem, but Islamic tradition is firm that this mosque is in Jerusalem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only thing the Qur’an has to say about it is this the first verse of sura 17, which says that Allah took Muhammad from “the Sacred Mosque” in Mecca “to the farthest [al-aqsa] Mosque.” There was no mosque in Jerusalem at this time, so the “farthest” mosque probably wasn’t really the one that now bears that name in Jerusalem, but Islamic tradition is firm that this mosque is in Jerusalem.</p>
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		<title>By: valeriusterminus</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636384</link>
		<dc:creator>valeriusterminus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636384</guid>
		<description>Hey DPF
Thanks for the fab photos and travellog - really inspiring in a &quot;must go there&quot; sense.
But why, the rendezvous ? &quot;five Swedes, two Finns two Austrians, &#039; and&#039; a Swiss &quot; now?
Did I miss the motive ? - (probably!)
Note; - that you state their Nationalities, not else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey DPF<br />
Thanks for the fab photos and travellog &#8211; really inspiring in a &#8220;must go there&#8221; sense.<br />
But why, the rendezvous ? &#8220;five Swedes, two Finns two Austrians, &#8216; and&#8217; a Swiss &#8221; now?<br />
Did I miss the motive ? &#8211; (probably!)<br />
Note; &#8211; that you state their Nationalities, not else.</p>
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		<title>By: mavxp</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636382</link>
		<dc:creator>mavxp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636382</guid>
		<description>I visited Jerusalem earlier this year and yes it was a great experience - more to feel the cultures today and the importance they have for the place - the Jews especially. Coming from NZ we don&#039;t have many Jews compared with other countries - such as USA, Australia, and UK so it was interesting to see how special the western wall and Jerusalem was for them. I think if you are Jewish you should definitely go and experience it for yourself. Others only if you are interested in the cultures today and the historical importance of the place (interminably linked). 

In terms of ancient sites for Christianity - it is pretty much all gone -the Romans *completely* destroyed the city in 70AD, some 40 years after Jesus, and rebuilt a pagan city over what was Jerusalem, so everything you see and walk on is newer - the walls of the old city are Ottoman, the Arab quarter (above the tunnels David walked through) are from the Mamluk era, and the via-dolorosa and other main avenues are from Crusader times.  In fact the street level is built up many feet above the 0 BC level.  The church of the holy sepulchre supposedly is the site of both Jesus&#039; crucifixion and his tomb - both at the same site and inside the present city walls (how convenient), but is highly suspect that it is actually what it claims to be. Unimpressed? head for the garden tomb outside the Damascus gate (which makes no claim to being the actual tomb, merely a possibility) to avoid the dingy darkness and overt religiosity of the orthodox church and consider the words on the door to the tomb  &quot;He is not here&quot;. Quite so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I visited Jerusalem earlier this year and yes it was a great experience &#8211; more to feel the cultures today and the importance they have for the place &#8211; the Jews especially. Coming from NZ we don&#8217;t have many Jews compared with other countries &#8211; such as USA, Australia, and UK so it was interesting to see how special the western wall and Jerusalem was for them. I think if you are Jewish you should definitely go and experience it for yourself. Others only if you are interested in the cultures today and the historical importance of the place (interminably linked). </p>
<p>In terms of ancient sites for Christianity &#8211; it is pretty much all gone -the Romans *completely* destroyed the city in 70AD, some 40 years after Jesus, and rebuilt a pagan city over what was Jerusalem, so everything you see and walk on is newer &#8211; the walls of the old city are Ottoman, the Arab quarter (above the tunnels David walked through) are from the Mamluk era, and the via-dolorosa and other main avenues are from Crusader times.  In fact the street level is built up many feet above the 0 BC level.  The church of the holy sepulchre supposedly is the site of both Jesus&#8217; crucifixion and his tomb &#8211; both at the same site and inside the present city walls (how convenient), but is highly suspect that it is actually what it claims to be. Unimpressed? head for the garden tomb outside the Damascus gate (which makes no claim to being the actual tomb, merely a possibility) to avoid the dingy darkness and overt religiosity of the orthodox church and consider the words on the door to the tomb  &#8220;He is not here&#8221;. Quite so.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack5</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636350</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack5</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 08:16:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636350</guid>
		<description>Re Danyl McLauchlan at 3.15: interesting comments Danyl, tickles the old travel itch.

By the way, given your views on Imihaera&#039;s plagiarism ( DimPost, as follows), I presume you wouldn&#039;t mind if Lonely Planet lifted your words. 

Danyl on Imihaera:&quot;...Personally I think Ihimaera’s ‘crime’ was trivial...&quot;

Danyl went on to reprint accusations of plagiarism against Garth George.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re Danyl McLauchlan at 3.15: interesting comments Danyl, tickles the old travel itch.</p>
<p>By the way, given your views on Imihaera&#8217;s plagiarism ( DimPost, as follows), I presume you wouldn&#8217;t mind if Lonely Planet lifted your words. </p>
<p>Danyl on Imihaera:&#8221;&#8230;Personally I think Ihimaera’s ‘crime’ was trivial&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Danyl went on to reprint accusations of plagiarism against Garth George.</p>
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		<title>By: Repton</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636276</link>
		<dc:creator>Repton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636276</guid>
		<description>I have heard that Israel has some of the best airport security in the world -- where &quot;best&quot; means &quot;most effective&quot;.  They don&#039;t make you take off your shoes, or other pointless wastes of time; they just have a lot of experienced men and women on the ground who are very good at assessing whether people pose a threat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have heard that Israel has some of the best airport security in the world &#8212; where &#8220;best&#8221; means &#8220;most effective&#8221;.  They don&#8217;t make you take off your shoes, or other pointless wastes of time; they just have a lot of experienced men and women on the ground who are very good at assessing whether people pose a threat.</p>
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		<title>By: Lance</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636273</link>
		<dc:creator>Lance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636273</guid>
		<description>Danyls post reminds me.
I had a coffee in this little cafe&#039; just inside the Jaffa gate. On the wall was a calander from Riverhead transport.. which is like 5 k/ms from where I live in Auckland.
Too weird.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danyls post reminds me.<br />
I had a coffee in this little cafe&#8217; just inside the Jaffa gate. On the wall was a calander from Riverhead transport.. which is like 5 k/ms from where I live in Auckland.<br />
Too weird.</p>
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		<title>By: WraithX</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636272</link>
		<dc:creator>WraithX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636272</guid>
		<description>The Aleppo Codex was written in the 10th century AD - it is not 3,000 years old, it is 1,087 years old :)  And, of course, it is the definitive text for the Hebrew Bible - not the Christian Bible which was based on the LXX and earlier Hebrew texts which are no longer extant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Aleppo Codex was written in the 10th century AD &#8211; it is not 3,000 years old, it is 1,087 years old <img src='http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   And, of course, it is the definitive text for the Hebrew Bible &#8211; not the Christian Bible which was based on the LXX and earlier Hebrew texts which are no longer extant.</p>
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		<title>By: anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636254</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 03:11:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636254</guid>
		<description>David, If you are going to be in Israel on the Sababth, see if you can find one of these, any lift installed after 2001 should include such an option.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, If you are going to be in Israel on the Sababth, see if you can find one of these, any lift installed after 2001 should include such an option.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff83</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636247</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff83</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636247</guid>
		<description>Is it just me or do the tunnels under the western wall look allot like Mordor!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it just me or do the tunnels under the western wall look allot like Mordor!</p>
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		<title>By: backster</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636237</link>
		<dc:creator>backster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636237</guid>
		<description>Your interests in biblical sites indicates that like Paul you have seen the light, and on that I congratulate you and welcome to the fold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your interests in biblical sites indicates that like Paul you have seen the light, and on that I congratulate you and welcome to the fold.</p>
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		<title>By: andrei</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636229</link>
		<dc:creator>andrei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:29:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636229</guid>
		<description>The frequency of posts seems to have shot up now you in the only civilized Middle Eastern Country since Turkey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The frequency of posts seems to have shot up now you in the only civilized Middle Eastern Country since Turkey.</p>
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		<title>By: TimG_Oz</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636221</link>
		<dc:creator>TimG_Oz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:20:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636221</guid>
		<description>Was the last photo the souk within the Old City, or a souk in East Jerusalem.

Depending on the peace proposal (I think there were a couple), I think the Old City either remained in Israeli hands, or was neutral territory, with access controlled by Jordan for Arab citizens of Palestine

Either way a fun place to go....  I got great drum lessons from some Arab marketeers, and they enjoyed the Mutton Birds Cassette in my walkman!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was the last photo the souk within the Old City, or a souk in East Jerusalem.</p>
<p>Depending on the peace proposal (I think there were a couple), I think the Old City either remained in Israeli hands, or was neutral territory, with access controlled by Jordan for Arab citizens of Palestine</p>
<p>Either way a fun place to go&#8230;.  I got great drum lessons from some Arab marketeers, and they enjoyed the Mutton Birds Cassette in my walkman!</p>
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		<title>By: Danyl Mclauchlan</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636218</link>
		<dc:creator>Danyl Mclauchlan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636218</guid>
		<description>There is (or used to be):

a great bar in the Christian Quarter called &#039;The Tobasco Tea Rooms&#039;
an Armenian bookseller on the Via Dolorosa that sells cool historical photgraphs of Jerusalem. 
A good perfumer near Damascus Gate where you can buy real frankencense and myrhh
an excellent bookstore called Steimastky on Ben Yehuda
The liturgy in the Armenian church is the most interesting of the Christian services. 
There are only a few hours/week that non-muslims can visit al-Hiram, don&#039;t miss out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is (or used to be):</p>
<p>a great bar in the Christian Quarter called &#8216;The Tobasco Tea Rooms&#8217;<br />
an Armenian bookseller on the Via Dolorosa that sells cool historical photgraphs of Jerusalem.<br />
A good perfumer near Damascus Gate where you can buy real frankencense and myrhh<br />
an excellent bookstore called Steimastky on Ben Yehuda<br />
The liturgy in the Armenian church is the most interesting of the Christian services.<br />
There are only a few hours/week that non-muslims can visit al-Hiram, don&#8217;t miss out.</p>
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		<title>By: Lance</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/jerusalem.html#comment-636217</link>
		<dc:creator>Lance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=38647#comment-636217</guid>
		<description>I am soooooo jelous.
Jerusalem was probably the most interesting place I ever visited.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am soooooo jelous.<br />
Jerusalem was probably the most interesting place I ever visited.</p>
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