The ‘Peace & Security’ chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform “flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.” The chapter continued: “The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state.”

…..and the attitude of the third largest party, Shas:

“It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable,”
(The spiritual leader of Israel’s Shas party, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, in a sermon calling for the annihilation of Arabs)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1270038.stm

Here is the Hamas position:
“Our message to the Israelis is this: we do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion “the people of the book” who have a covenant from God and His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be respected and protected. Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us – our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people.

We shall never recognise the right of any power to rob us of our land and deny us our national rights. We shall never recognise the legitimacy of a Zionist state created on our soil in order to atone for somebody else’s sins or solve somebody else’s problem. But if you are willing to accept the principle of a long-term truce, we are prepared to negotiate the terms. Hamas is extending a hand of peace to those who are truly interested in a peace based on justice.

· Khalid Mish’al – head of the political bureau of Hamas
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/31/comment.israelandthepalestinians

The Arab States have long been willing to acknowledge and deal with Israel on condition that Israel acknowledges the rights of those dispossessed in 1947-8. Every major negotiation between Israel and the Arab States has foundered on this one point.
- see “The Iron Wall. Israel and the Arab World” Avi Shlaim.

There is great irony in MikeNZ’s use of the term “honesty” when what he proposes is that the Arab States should pretend that the dispossession of the indigenous people did not take place. This would be a monumental act of dishonesty.

See those two curtain walls, I could take out either of them.

and thank you for your good wishes.

Anytime you want to try debate instead of personal attacks, let me know. I’ll be available.

…I fear I may die wondering…

You must have a sparkling existence, Lucy, if you think Kiwiblog’s likely to be on your mind when you finally drift off into the big sleep (and may that be several decades away).

It’s OK. Others are doing very well without me. And I enjoy these postings from DPF on his travels – in fact, I wonder why a blog by such a reasonable man draws in such dog whistle extremists like your good self.

I fear I may die wondering.

It was such an atrocity that if committed by anyone else, such as the Nazi Germans, they would have been in the dock for crimes against humanity. They were very cruel.

For nearly 40 years the Israelis lied about what happened at Deir Yassin. In the end they dropped the fiction about 1983 (not long after the massacres at Shatila and Sabra in Beirut) when a retired Israeli Air Force general (Peled, I think) took a BBC film crew to where the village had been and described the massacre.

Begin was one of the more dreadful human beings of the 20th century, and probably calling him a ‘human being’ is being charitable to him.

No way really?

Barry
Israel has special rights because the Europeans and the rest of the UN aren’t honest enough to force the Arab States to act honestly and let Israel be part of the geographic group she should be in.
Another reason the UN is UNessasary.

I once visited Israel on a buying trip. The Israeli’s have some pretty good industrial products, but I was diss-illusioned by their attitude and we eventually didnt proceed.

The first thing that struck me was they always said (of political problems) “the rest of the world doesnt understand us” – and they were very serious about this.

Then I found that they get an AWFUL LOT of help from Uncle sam – and this is industry, not military. Although its delivered via the military.
Everyone has to serve (well they did then) 2 months a year in the military until they were of a certain age (and they could continue after this voluntarily). In the military they teach you things like firing guns etc, but thet also teach you technology and skills.
So – if you want to automate your factory – youll have someone trained in this skill by the military (ie: by Uncle Sam’s money), if you want a pilot to spray the organge groove – then you get one of the pilot who is trained as a pilot and a microlight plane. If you want medical people or metal workers or anything – youll have someone on the staff trained in these skills – by Uncle sam via the military.

And then they get special access rights to the EU. Israel is the only country that has effective membership rights to the EU while not being a member. Its based on guilt and all good luck to the israeli govt for using this historical fact – but buggered if I was going to support their industry buying from them while they competed directly with my customers with special access rights (and zero duty)

A very intersting country and obviously lots of history – but just like the balkans (and many other places) blaming history for the current situation never seems to solve problems. Id not like to live there.

An interesting trip, DPF. Can you please tell us more about the group you are with on the Israel leg of the trip? Is it a study group, or some sort of Rejewvenation retreat?

[DPF: The attendees are leading youth members of CR political parties in Europe (plus me). Young Likud invited people they knew to attend]

[DPF: Interesting Likud generally does not favour two states. They want to increase Jewish immigration to Israel, and have all Palestinians also as Israeli citizens - but with a Jewish majority - however in a secular state with freedom of religion. It is fair to say there is no agreement on this issue]