The jungle drums have it that a number of high quality candidates are lining up in Epsom for a crack at the National nomination. Yes of course there has been a tacit nudge nidge wink wink deal in the past to ‘gift’ the seat to ACT.

Not sure that is guaranteed to 2012. The failed coup might indicate that ACT is not a stable coalition partner.

So in summary, Epsom has been badly served with three flakes: Fletcher, Worth and Hide and I think they’re thirsting for a change.

If you honestly believe this and you have any influence within the ACT party, then National needs to look for another support party, pronto!

From what i saw as an outsider, Hide worked his arse off to win Epsom, even when everyone (except his own polling) was telling him he couldn’t do it. If ACT had any brains at all, they would put another top candidate in Tamaki. But to be honest, i don’t know if Brash has got the energy, or inclination, to put in the work that would be required to win the seat.

National voters would realise that they had the opportunity to strengthen ACT’s position by lessening the influence of Epsom, while ensuring that ACT remained in parliament, regardless of the Epsom result (assuming they can’t make 5%).

To canablise Epsom by putting someone else up, would not just to shoot yourselves in the foot, but blow your whole bloody leg off.

Hide fucked up, but it was just male menopause. He’ll be okay now.

Whaleoil & Cate take on the nutters with facts & reason, and for some reason people seem to be voting for the nutters.

This leftie is loving this thread

Flaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmme Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrr!!!

Most Politicans and civil servants are guilty of 2 faced behaviour. They speak out of both sides of their mouths at the same time.

Many citizens are sick to death of hearing these little creeps and weasels lecturing and hectoring us about what we should and shouldnt do whilst they commit the very sins they bang on at us about.

They show us no respect and only arrogance and contempt. Well we should show them the same back .Time they were taught a lesson.

When they learn to act in a responsible manner then and only then should we show them respect.

Respect is earnt It doesnt come with the title.

However being dependent on Epsom and campaigning on the basis that voting for Rodney Hide will not reduce National’s chance of forming a government, means that ACT is tied to the bulk of National’s Labour-lite agenda even to the point of being forced to vote to raise taxes (or cancel tax cuts before they take effect which is the same thing).

Surely even Whale and Cactus will agree that if National’s policies were sufficiently left-wing, a point would come where ACT would have to cut itself loose and stand up for its core principles, even if that means risking not being reelected. I’m not we’re there yet, but surely it’s close. Bill English announcing that National has no intention of trying to catch up to Australia seems like a good candidate for the tipping point where ACT could reasonably say that in all conscience they just can’t continue to back this agenda.

Remember that ACT won Wellington Central and passed 5% with economic policies well to the right of their current ones and no presence in Parliament and no promise to back National. Is it so unrealistic that ACT could either win Epsom or pass 5% with more centrist policies and an established parliamentary team, without needing to attach themselves to National any longer?

I should add I didn’t know anything about the ‘putsch’ (if it even really existed) until I read it on this blog.

Gooner (611) Says:
December 20th, 2009 at 10:42 pm

Your both bloody wrong (and right).

Hide is seen by the electorate as a buffoon and ACT will never progress under his “leadership”

That 13,000 majority in Epsom is a lot of buffoons MT Tinman. And ACT got 125% more votes in 2008 than in 2005 under his leadership.

Really, some people here need to go back to their Playstations and Lego.

Gooner, whether you accept it or not that is the perception of a large number of people.

I make no comment either way but people remember only what they want to and the “perkbuster”/tv antics do not denote a leader.

Take time to talk to people (as I do for a crust) and this is the one thing that becomes obvious.

Kate thinks I live in the past (she’s probably correct) but until ACT gets a leader with a public presence similar to Jones (in 1983/4 – in which the NZ party gained 12.2% of the votes Kate), Holyoake or Muldoon it simply will not appeal to the numbers of non-thinking dipshit voters (who should never be allowed to vote anyway) who make up the majority of the electorate.

As an aside – Great thread this – the best for many many months if only because there is actually debate.

The way some of the commenters carry on suggests that they think their farts are Gods wisdom!

The right decision. They do not need more dimwits.

Bullshit!

The personal attacks were started by you, I can take your lame abuse, I can take your stuck up attitude, it is all water off a ducks back as far as I am concerned but I draw the line at you telling lies.

If you cannot deal with people disagreeing with you then this is not the place to be.

Whale and Kate IMHO nailed the stupidity of what Douglas and Roy tried to do. As someone who has slogged in political trenches and been involved in a number of campaigns at the local and national level, you come to learn about a number of political realities. Separating one’s personal dreams and preferences from what is practical and possible in a NZ political context is what grown ups who want to move from the world of ‘Letter to the Editor’ and blog comments to the real world of wielding actual Parliamentary power must do if they want to have any chance of success in the latter endeavour. In the end, the voters are always right because in a democracy, they have the final say.

Roger Douglas did this country a great service and the reforms he instigated were needed, necessary and have laid some crucial foundations to the economic viability of NZ after the disasters of the Muldoon and earlier eras. But his day is long gone. Is he a brilliant and innovative economic thinker? Undoubtedly. Will NZers ever support him either as a party leader, cabinet minister or other position of profound influence? Never – its a political reality so get over it. Don Brash was a very capable RB Governor. He has a clear grasp of economic verities and in a perfect world, would actually make an excellent Minister of Finance. But in the REAL world of politics he is naive potential PR disaster. Yes his Orewa speech lofted National from sub 30% to ahead of Labour. That Brash came so close to unseating Labour in 05 was more to do with the growing unpopularity of Clark and her nanny State govt than his campaigning acumen. The Exclusive Brethren incident, which most would agree cost him the election, spoke volumes for Brash’s POLITICAL judgement. A more canny politician would’ve never gone near such a group regardless of their good intentions (exposing the Greens) because there are certain perceptions in society that are next to impossible to change and cosying up to a group that most would consider to be religious extremists is one of them. His meetings were bound to be found out and ruthlessly exploited by a left leaning media desperate to cover for Clark.

Rodney taking his bit of fluff to Europe was gold medal foolishness and the price he will pay is that his perkbusting efforts are now effectively doomed in terms of their PR value. I believe his contrition was genuine and the manner in which he fessed up was politically well done. A party like ACT will always be dominated by ideological purists and such a small party will never have enough people in its senior tactical ranks who have ever really operated very long at the Parliamentary or Cabinet level in Govt or Opposition nor run numerous campaigns at the national or local level to really get a grasp of the complex tactics involved with MMP elections. Epsom as one of National’s safest seats will invariably elect (without the tactical imperitive of a campaign like Rodney’s) whoever National selects by virtue of its socio-economic demograph. That local National Party members have selected drongos over the years speaks more about their particular local electorate dominated nomination system and who greased up to enough local delegates than the foolishness of Epsom’s voters.

Cactus and Whale in the midst of the flame war IMO were merely pointing out some practical political realities – that failed coups are politically damaging to big parties and politically toxic to small parties.

The “liberal right” need to wise up and see what useful idiots of Progressivism they actually are. If they are unwilling to do that, I’d suggest they join that Cresswellian cult. (last seen taking holiday snaps as they cruised passed Neptune)