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How many more troughers are hiding in the ranks of National?
A former Government minister is being investigated by police for allegedly using his ex-MP perk of taxpayer-funded flights on business trips and then claiming driving mileage from the charity he headed.
Detectives have executed search warrants on the Auckland home of Roger McClay, a National Party MP for 15 years, and seized financial records from Keep New Zealand Beautiful, of which he was the chairman.
Former Cabinet minister Sir Douglas Graham says he would give up his international travel subsidy in exchange for a pension increase – but only when he is too old to fly.
One would suspect that if MPs are rorting the system that the likely hood of this being only Nat Mps is somewhat remote.
If I were you billyborker I would be a little bit carefull about what you say before labour MPs (or any party)are investigated.
(CNN) – Sarah Palin will be the main attraction at what’s being billed as the “First National Tea Party Convention.”
Tea Party Nation announced Wednesday that last year’s Republican vice presidential candidate will serve as keynote speaker for the conference, scheduled to take place in Nashville, Tennessee February 4-6. A representative for Palin has confirmed the former Alaska governor’s speaking role at the gathering.
The group also announced that Rep. Michele Bachmann will be speaking at the gathering as well. The Minnesota Republican has become a hero among many in the conservative movement. A representative for Bachmann confirms her speaking role.
So Maurice(of what leaky homes dept.) decides to throw his toys out of the cot.
Another National fail (along with their socialist mates at Liarbor.)
Mayors fail to agree on leaky-homes
By JOHN HARTEVELT – The Dominion Post
Last updated 05:00 05/12/2009
The number of leaky-home owners is growing by nearly one a day as negotiations for a Government-led solution have hit an impasse.
The six-party mayoral forum looking for a solution with the Government has been scrapped and responsibility handed solely to Auckland Mayor John Banks and Wellington Mayor Kerry Prendergast.
“The fact of the matter is, we’re at a sticky stage,” Mr Banks said last night.
“It’s not a great criticism of my mayoral colleagues, it’s just this is very hard. It is very difficult to fix a complex problem with a committee.”
Figures issued on Thursday by the Housing and Building Department show claims to the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service topped 5916 as of November 30.
There were 21 new claims lodged in November and there have been 517 new claims lodged since January last year.
Auckland has topped 2002 claims, Wellington 357 and Christchurch 231.
Home Owners and Buyers Association president John Gray said it was “morally reprehensible” that the Government was sitting on a solution while the list of victims grew.
“They are just consigning more and more people to the scrap heap as every day goes by,” Mr Gray said.
“It’s awful when you sit around the mediation table and you look in to the eyes of people who have unwittingly become victims of this. It’s pretty depressing.”
The “body count” of homeowners was growing alongside builders and architects – many of whom were not deserving of the agony, he said.
Building and Construction Minister Maurice Williamson has been involved in tense negotiations since August with the six mayors, searching for an agreement.
They are trying to agree on how to pay an estimated $11.5 billion bill to repair the thousands of Kiwi homes rotting from water that has leaked into poorly designed or built homes.
Mr Banks said the latest forum ended “in custard”, with Mr Williamson putting the phone down on a tele-conference.
Mr Williamson had been “antagonised” by some of the mayors, Mr Banks said.
“We don’t lecture to the other mayors, we respect them. But I think the time has now arrived where the two of us [he and Ms Prendergast] should pick up the sensitive negotiations.”
The Government has reportedly offered a package to shoulder 10 per cent of the cost of repairing leaky homes.
Their contribution would be through suspensory loans for victims aged over 65 and on limited incomes; interest bill subsidies for those on annual incomes under $76,000; housing assessments and mediation; and a universal loan guarantee scheme to help victims access bank finance.
Mr Banks said he and Ms Prendergast would ask the Government for more. “We’re trying to wring out some more equity. In the meantime, the victims continue to suffer.”
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A spokeswoman for Mr Williamson said he was meeting Prime Minister John Key and Finance Minister Bill English regularly.
“A lot of thought and hard work has gone on and it continues,” the spokeswoman said.
Ms Prendergast said it had been impossible to negotiate with a bigger group of mayors because leaks to the media had undermined negotiations.
“We’ve decided to proceed just with a smaller group.”
I remind you that Maurice and Bill and flip flop flap key decided to front up with 10% of the repair cost. That is after you have paid the 12.5 % GST. Have we got a deal for you? Want to buy a bridge?
December 5th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Still, I suppose we should be grateful that billyborker isn’t abusing Christians or the differently-abled – yet!
Had my fill of that earlier today in Rangiora when the god botherers stopped me and tried to talk about healing with prayer. I asked them why no prayer has ever resulted in the regrowth of an amputated limb and they had no asnwer. The only ills “cured” by nprayer are those where medical intervention has prevailed or where there is a spontaneous bodilly healing, not because some poor bastard begged god.
These people should be jailed for preying on the vulnerable.
Copenhagen Mayor Ritt Bjerregaard sent postcards to city hotels warning summit guests not to patronize Danish sex workers during the upcoming conference. Now, the prostitutes have struck back, offering free sex to anyone who produces one of the warnings.
Copenhagen’s city council in conjunction with Lord Mayor Ritt Bjerregaard sent postcards out to 160 Copenhagen hotels urging COP15 guests and delegates to ‘Be sustainable – don’t buy sex’.
“Dear hotel owner, we would like to urge you not to arrange contacts between hotel guests and prostitutes,” the approach to hotels says.
Now, Copenhagen prostitutes are up in arms, saying that the council has no business meddling in their affairs. They have now offered free sex to anyone who can produce one of the offending postcards and their COP15 identity card, according to the Web site avisen.dk.
Sounds like a surreptitious, UN-funded promotion to increase attendance. It’ll have Helen’s fingerprints all over it
getstaffed, are YOU saying prayer will re grow an amputed limb? If so, please supply a reference. Otherwise there is the proof that prayer does not heal, or can prayer only heal, as I said above, the stuff that fixes itself or the stuff doctors work on.
So yes, I AM saying no one has ever been healed through prayer, but not all the claimants are liars, some are simply deluded, misguided or fooled by conjuring tricks.
Even double blind studies on prayer for people in hospital have shown no evidence for the efficacy of prayer above the placebo effect.
billy, I have seen two people healed following prayer on two separate occasions. If you subscribe to the idea of random self-healing then that’s probably how you’d explain it. I have a Christian faith, Christ both spoke of healing and so that’s how I explain it. I have also seen plenty is occasions – actually the majority – where prayer did not result in healing. I have never seen nor heard of an amputated limb re-growing.
And as for “I AM saying no one has ever been healed through prayer” you’re probably not in the best position to judge this. You may never have been, you may not believe it’s possible, but that’s probably the extent any assertion you’re able to make.
Barack Obama is heading to Climatehagen with a promise that U.S. emissions in 2050 will be 83 percent below 2005 levels. If so, 2050 emissions will equal those in 1910, when there were 92 million Americans. But there will be 420 million Americans in 2050, so Obama’s promise means that per capita emissions then will be about what they were in 1875.
Obama may not be that smart, but he must have legions of very smart advisors to warn him off making these ridiculous offers. I’m not sure what’s less credible – Obama clock windback, or Phil Jones’s ‘the dog ate my climate homework’, or Algore ‘it’s a million degrees 2kms down’
December 5th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
billy, I have seen two people healed following prayer on two separate occasions. If you subscribe to the idea of random self-healing then that’s probably how you’d explain it. I have a Christian faith, Christ both spoke of healing and so that’s how I explain it.
Is this the same Christ who was so scientifically illiterate that he thought disease was caused by sin, that illness was caused by demonic posession and that fig trees should bear fruit out of season just because he was hungry?
I wouldn’t put much store in HIM.
But back to the question – if prayer heals, why does it only heal the easy things? Why can’t an amputed limb regrow?
A couple of Christmases ago, there was a big article in Investigate about healing, detailing six healing miracles, one of which took place at Starship hospital and which doctors can’t explain.
Truth be told, I don’t think billy would believe in God even if a miracle happened right in front of him. Some people just don’t want to believe. The argument he uses here he got from some atheist site and I bet he’d been waiting ages for some Christians to come along and gleefully use it on. He’s not looking for answers and doesn’t wonder if there is a God or not, he just wants to sock it to those who do believe.
As for his term ‘god botherer’, billy seems to be more bothered about God than a Christian is…lol
Fletch – Agree. If ones presupposition is that there is no God, and no spirtual realm then any debate about the intersection of the nautual and supernatural is valueless. It’s a tough crusade for billy. Most athiests I know are perfectly comfortable around people of various faiths, but not him it would appear.
December 5th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
A couple of Christmases ago, there was a big article in Investigate about healing, detailing six healing miracles, one of which took place at Starship hospital and which doctors can’t explain.
And we all know Investigate is a world renowned, unbiased medical journal. Yeah, right.
I read the article in question, and there was no proof offerred of anything miraculous. Simply because smothing cannot be explained is no proof of god.
Truth be told, I don’t think billy would believe in God even if a miracle happened right in front of him. Some people just don’t want to believe.
You’re right there, I DON’T want to believe, I want evidence, proof, replication. Knowledge always trumps belief. However, if I did witness a miracle, I’d be open to change my point of view, I just never have, and never will, witness a miracle.
The argument he uses here he got from some atheist site and I bet he’d been waiting ages for some Christians to come along and gleefully use it on.
Wether or not that is a true statement does nothing to advance your case that prayer heals. A regrown limb, on the other hand, would. Why is it so hard for god to regrow limbs?
Like you billy I don’t really believe in God but then again I have never spent any time in a foxhole either so I might just keep my options open for now as regards miracles and such like.
Getstaffed, how do you reconcile your rational and evidence-based investigation of climate change, with your evidence-free belief in the power of praying to God?
You said that in the majority of cases you have seen, prayer did not correlate with a positive outcome. Yet in the two cases where it did, you think prayer was the reason. But do you have any evidence to support that? I’m guessing no, because you said “If you subscribe to the idea of random self-healing then that’s probably how you’d explain it.” Your choice of words give the impression that one would need a belief in an unproven theory of self-healing to not attribute the outcome to prayer. Which isn’t true. You just need an appreciation of natural variance and the imperfect nature of medical treatments.
The “you won’t understand unless you’re a Christian” argument is very weak. Either there’s evidence for all to see, or there’s none, for all to see. In which case it’s just wishful thinking.
billy, it’s God that heals, not prayer. You don’t believe in the existence of God so can’t accept that healing occurs. That’s fair enough.
However I reject the notion that you want evidence, proof, and replication. What your comments demonstrate is that you want to deny the right of others to believe, in the absence of that evidence, proof, and replication.
Have you ever heard of Lourdes? Hundreds of cures, scientifically and medically examined before and after the event, with no expalnation other than a miracle – and the event and medical opinions and examinations all recorded, by secular, not Catholic or other religious medicos.
Actually, I think there is a case of a limb growing back through prayer – I’ll see if I can find it.
malcolm – sorry, I’m heading out so a short reply. Yes there was evidence, so my belief is not evidence free. Confounded doctors at Wellington Hospital in one instance. The other was quite a few years ago and I can’t honestly recall what documented evidence there was.. other than an healthy person who was gravely ill in hospital two days earlier. I’ve also seen many lives changed as a result of people accepting Christ. So I’m probably at the rationalist end of the religious spectrum! I completely accept your comment re weakness of the “you won’t understand unless you’re a Christian” thing, so feel free to ping me if I use it.
I can’t answer that billy not currently being a religious bloke (I will leave it to the truly pious who appear to be present at the moment) but I am pretty certain if I was in my foxhole amongst the incoming I would be seriously considering the power of prayer
December 5th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
malcolm – sorry, I’m heading out so a short reply. Yes there was evidence, so my belief is not evidence free. Confounded doctors at Wellington Hospital in one instance. The other was quite a few years ago and I can’t honestly recall what documented evidence there was.. other than an healthy person who was gravely ill in hospital two days earlier
Perhaps your anecdote would be more complelling if the sick person spent 2 days in a remote African village without modern medecine. Just what do you think happened during those two days in hospital?
Hundreds of cures, scientifically and medically examined before and after the event, with no expalnation other than a miracle…
That doctors can’t explain why someone recovered, doesn’t automatically mean that God sorted it when he heard someone pray. There’s lots that doctors cannot explain. For a long time no one could explain why some people got better from scurvy and others didn’t. By your reasoning, the cure for scurvy must be prayer and crossing your fingers. When in fact you just needed a bit of vitamin C.
Actually, I think there is a case of a limb growing back through prayer – I’ll see if I can find it.
That would certainly help the debate along. Please have a look for us.
Yes there was evidence, so my belief is not evidence free. Confounded doctors at Wellington Hospital in one instance.
Confounded doctors aren’t evidence of a miracle, of course. That would imply that doctors know everything and medicines are perfect and their results perfectly understood.
There have been a double-bind experiments on the power of prayer and it has been found wanting. Of course we can’t discount the possibility that God was just playing silly-buggers to throw us off the scent.
I completely accept your comment re weakness of the “you won’t understand unless you’re a Christian” thing, so feel free to ping me if I use it.
“Intuiting God’s beliefs on important issues may not produce an independent guide, but may instead serve as an echo chamber to validate and justify one’s own beliefs,” writes a team led by Nicholas Epley of the University of Chicago in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
The researchers started by asking volunteers who said they believe in God to give their own views on controversial topics, such as abortion and the death penalty. They also asked what the volunteers thought were the views of God, average Americans and public figures such as Bill Gates. Volunteers’ own beliefs corresponded most strongly with those they attributed to God.
(…)
Other researchers say the findings reinforce earlier studies suggesting that thinking about God is intimately linked to the imagination.
These experiments “support previous findings that representations of God seem intimately related to the self, also in terms of brain function”, says Uffe Schjødt of Aarhus University in Denmark, whose research published earlier this year showed that praying uses similar brain regions as talking to a friend.
The Nats and leaky homes, I’m sure the Nats will be able to do what Labour did with the problem, have a talk fest until they are out of power then it becomes Labour’s problem.
If some are helped what happens to those who used private inspection services while the house was being built, does the free market mantra apply ?
Care to provide documentary evidence? Because there is a heap of evidence showing its real – certainly no fake.
Still haven’t found about the limb growing back. From memory, it occurred in Italy about 30 or 40 years ago. IIRC, A guy had his leg amputated in an accident; it grew back about 3 weeks later over a period of a few days (after a lot of prayer, of course)- the details could be incorrect, so I’ll keep searching.
To its eternal discredit, the Roman Catholic Church investigated Soubirous’s claims for four years before approving devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes. Since then, the Church has validated 67 miracles at Lourdes* (of the thousands that have been reported*) and canonized the peasant girl.* (Her body, which is on display, is alleged to be incorruptible, but the face and hands, which look so lifelike, are made of wax.) It is estimated that in recent years about 5 million pilgrims a year visit the shrine at Lourdes. Over the past 150 years, some 200 million people have made the pilgrimage.* For those who care, that’s a success rate of .0000335% or 1 out of every 3 million. Furthermore, since 1947 anyone claiming a miraculous cure has to go before a medical board. “From 1947 to 1990, only 1,000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognized in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before 1914.”* Since 1978, there have been only four recognized cures.* So, if you’re thinking of going to Lourdes for a miracle cure, the odds are not very high in your favor. Pilgrims might find some consolation in a British study that tested miracle-seekers at regular intervals for a year after they visited Lourdes and found that they were significantly less anxious and depressed.* Who wouldn’t be cheered up by a trip to southern France and by being surrounded by people much worse off than yourself?
Of all the cures alleged to have occurred at Lourdes, however, none have involved dramatic, unambiguous events like the growing back of a severed limb. Belgian philosopher Etienne Vermeersch likened this fact to the lack of clear, unambiguous data in support of the existence of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. He also claimed that there have probably been significantly more fatal accidents suffered by pilgrims on their way to or from Lourdes than there have been cures.
Not sure why people are responding to billy’s obvious strawman.
When billy posts these things I prefer to ask him other questions unrelated to his. It usually confuses the poor fellow and he retires early.
So billy, what are your reasons behind your belief (which I assume you have) that truth is preferable to deception, right is better than wrong, and good is higher than evil?
It’s been proven that prayer can have a positive influence on many things, including recovery from illness. I don’t pray at all but I accept that it can help others. I believe I have other ways of achieving similar determination and resolve, but if prayer is a successful way of doing it for some then why not?
Shit, talk about a dressing down for Bernanke! Found this at the Daily Reckoning……..
“In yesterday’s confirmation hearing for his second four-year term as Federal Reserve chairman, Ben Bernanke received a thorough tongue-lashing from Senator Jim Bunning (R-KY). Here are a few highlights from the transcript as well as the video…”
* “…you put the printing presses into overdrive to fund the government’s spending and hand out cheap money to your masters on Wall Street, which they use to rake in record profits while ordinary Americans and small businesses can’t even get loans for their everyday needs.”
* “…you have decided that just about every large bank, investment bank, insurance company, and even some industrial companies are too big to fail. Rather than making management, shareholders, and debt holders feel the consequences of their risk-taking, you bailed them out. In short, you are the definition of moral hazard.”
* “Because you bowed to pressure from the banks and refused to resolve them or force them to clean up their balance sheets and clean out the management, you have created zombie banks that are only enriching their traders and executives. You are repeating the mistakes of Japan in the 1990s on a much larger scale, while sowing the seeds for the next bubble.”
* “From monetary policy to regulation, consumer protection, transparency, and independence, your time as Fed Chairman has been a failure.”
Interesting how he refers to “The Creature From Jekyll Island” at the end. Anyone who is remotely interested in the cause of the meltdown in the monetary system should watch it. A very well put explanation of the Fed and how it was formed by deceit. Most Americans (or anybody for that matter) presume it is an arm of Government. Wrong!
Don’t believe the bullshit that the recession is over, round 2 is on it’s way and it will be bigger than the last one. The only thing keeping the appearance of normality going is the mickey mouse money being pumped in by the Fed.
All the real indicator are off the scale, the bottom of the scale.
The video shows the Federal Reserve for what it is, an absolute rort that is not a Government institution as most Americans believe and that it is slowly destroying the West like a cancer. Ron Paul is trying to get a bill through to have the Fed audited. Fucking freaky that he has to resort to that and that it isn’t already in the top 5 list of “essential things required for running a country”.
Apparently the UK debt is now over 2 trillion NZ dollars or $100000 per household. The bank execs are threatening to quit their jobs if they don’t get big bonuses, they should be taken out and shot instead. I have a funny feeling when the Poms wake up to this it might actually happen, they aren’t renowned for being sheeples like us down here. Remember the Poll Tax.
And in case you think it isn’t anything to do with us, just remember, Bill and John are borrowing 250 million every week on behalf of your kids and grandkids. Don’t bother sitting down with a calculator, it’ll ruin your Xmas.
grumpyoldhori (1000) Vote: Add rating 3 Subtract rating 0 Says:
December 5th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
The Nats and leaky homes, I’m sure the Nats will be able to do what Labour did with the problem, have a talk fest until they are out of power then it becomes Labour’s problem.
You just put up “running the Government 101″. Irrelevant who is in charge, it’s all about perception, nothing to do with substance.
The Met Office plans to re-examine 160 years of temperature data after admitting that public confidence in the science on man-made global warming has been shattered by leaked e-mails.
The new analysis of the data will take three years, meaning that the Met Office will not be able to state with absolute confidence the extent of the warming trend until the end of 2012.
The Met Office database is one of three main sources of temperature data analysis on which the UN’s main climate change science body relies for its assessment that global warming is a serious danger to the world. This assessment is the basis for next week’s climate change talks in Copenhagen aimed at cutting CO2 emissions.
The Government is attempting to stop the Met Office from carrying out the re-examination, arguing that it would be seized upon by climate change sceptics.
What a nice little curveball for the port & cigar crowd to studiously ignore at the Climatehagen summit.
Mr Brown last night insisted that the science on climate change in settled, and accused those who question the consensus of being outdated.
He said: “With only days to go before Copenhagen we mustn’t be distracted by the behind-the-times, anti-science, flat-earth climate sceptics. We know the science. We know what we must do.”
What an idiot. It’s not about the science, and it’s not about the climate. It’s about leverage for an incrementally evolving global governance regime.
I am disappointed that comments on “R v Internet Part II” have gone dead. After working out, from David’s posting this morning of the screen grab, who the person is, des[ite the areas blocked out, I still am intrigued to know what the position may be:
Is some one guilty of breaking a court suppression of identity, if they do not actually reveal a name, but make sufficient information available for someone else to determine the name themselves, even if that information requires some further deduction?
You can tell climategate is breathing down their necks by their current rhetoric. QUICK QUICK PASS PUNITIVE TAXES NOW BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE IGNORE THE DOUBTERS. They want it over and done with before the fraud is out in full view and it’s too late to reverse the damage.
No question big bruv. All the councils etc are rorting the ratepayers and landowners to pay for the amenities for the citizens of their towns.
The sooner its stopped the better. All that is required is for a minor change to the Residential Tenancies Act so that Landlords can charge their tenants rates. Will have an effect quite quickly on what the councils etc spend ratepayers money on. All the lefties that rent will find God when their pockets get hit and gone will be the nice to haves leaving the essentials. Anything else should be paid for by the citizens as they use them..
Heatley is the Man in charge and so far this last 12 months apart from being caught rorting the system he hasn’t been seen anywhere. I have asked him to get the Act changed but its in the to hard basket and is leaving it with Rodney. Another useless gutless unprincipled Nat I’m afraid.
Why should those who don’t own a house pay the council for housing services when they don’t own one, land owners just want a bubble market for housing and none of the consequences.
Well who is it that uses those services. The landlord can only crap once a day, drink so much water, drive one car at a time, play one sport, use the library occasionally etc etc. All citizens use those services and everyone should pay. That’s fair isn’t it?
If it isn’t then tell us why!.
And what has a poll tax got to do with housing bubbles? Your logic escapes me. A poll tax may well slow down the increase for the reason that people would make better spending decisions based on their ability to sustain their lifestyles and therefore councils would not need to collect some much tax from new developments.
Address to the 2009 Whitlam Institute Symposium
Dr Ken Henry
Australian Secretary to the Treasury
Australian Government expenditure grew from 18.9 per cent of GDP in 1971-72, the last full budget year before the Whitlam Government came to power, to 24.8 per cent of GDP in 1975-76, the last budget delivered by the Whitlam Government, representing spending growth of around 56 per cent in real terms.
In the three and a half decades since, while there have been significant annual fluctuations, the average level of spending by the Australian government has changed little, to be around 25¼ per cent of GDP.4
Interesting to note that Govt. expenditure is less than 25.5% of GDP there yet When Dr Don propsed we meet the same sort of level all the fruit cakes and bludgers came out from their closets and hopeless editors of the left MSM and their equally useless journo’s embarked on a campaign to discredit his report.
Banana, you need to invest some of your money in being a landlord. What a lesson for you it would be. I am at loss to see how a renter subsidies the landlord for building the house. The rent paid is for the use of the housing facility i.e. the ground,four walls and the roof containing the amenities. In most cases rents on a mortgage free house will return a landlord 5-6%. No we can get that in the bank with no risk, no absconding tenants, no damage and no rates bill.
Apart from that the RTA specifically prevents a landlord from charging tenants for rates, whereas a commercial tenancy allows for this to happen.
Why should renters subsidise your insulation? why should farmers not be able to develop their land for housing? everyone is at the public tit in some way Big Bruv although i am sympathetic to the idea of a poll tax i would like to see greater reform before it was introduced.
This may shock you Viking but i did own a house in Flaxmere once upon a time.
The Poll tax is the fairest form of local body tax, everybody pays their share
The concept of ‘share’ is, sadly, is the problem here. Our socialist DNA now has ingrained the idea that those that have provided for themselves should pay for those that can’t / won’t / aren’t prepared.
Banana; What’s this about ? Why should renters subsidise your insulation?
As far as I am aware they don’t. If you are referring to the current Govt. subsidy to insulate housing then that is available to any house owner that lives in their own house and to landlords whose tenants have a Community /service Card.
I personally don’t consider that IT IS A DESIRABLE WAY OF SPENDING TAX PAYERS MONEY.
It would depend on the brand you use Viking if you buy Pinkbats then you are buying subsidized insulation.
I’m quite sure certain types of timber used in housing receives a government subsidy as well but i will check on that, I used insulation because i know for certain it receives subsidy’s from the point of manufacture all the way through distribution to installation.
# billyborker at 6:34 pm: (It’s been proven that prayer can have a positive influence on many things, including recovery from illness.) Citations, please.
Are religious people healthier than their unbelieving neighbors? Yes, according to research by the National Institute for Health Care Research (NIHR). Their research confirmed that both mentally and physically, religious people enjoy better health than their nonreligious friends.
According to a study by the research psychiatrist Daniel Larson, “people of faith consistently exhibit higher levels of mental, physical, and relational wellness.” He found that 92 percent of the researches done to test the effect of religion on health, religious subjects produced a beneficial effect and lived longer than non-religious.
There is considerable literature on the relationship between religion and health. Psychologists consider that there are various ways in which religion may benefit both physical and mental health, including encouraging healthy lifestyles such as abstinence from tobacco, providing social support networks and encouraging an optimistic outlook on life; prayer and meditation may also help to benefit physiological functioning.
Is John Key doing a “Me Too” on Helen Clark’s legacy of the All blacks losing streak? He should have listened to the 2025 taskforce and started to change New Zealand’s fortune. Doesn’t bode well for the Rugby World Cup in 2011.
Thanks for those Pete, but there is little in the way of hard research, in fact some almost read like a religious tract, not serious study of the topic.
The biggest study ever undertaken found no significant effect in prayer.
Volume 151, Issue 4, Pages 934-942 (April 2006)
Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: A multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer
Herbert Benson, MDal, Jeffery A. Dusek, PhDal, Jane B. Sherwood, RNm, Peter Lam, PhDm, Charles F. Bethea, MDb, William Carpenter, MDivc, Sidney Levitsky, MDd, Peter C. Hill, MDe, Donald W. Clem Jr., MAf, Manoj K. Jain, MD, MPHg, David Drumel, MDivgh, Stephen L. Kopecky, MDi, Paul S. Mueller, MDj, Dean Marekk, Sue Rollins, RN, MPHb, Patricia L. Hibberd, MD, PhDlm
Received 5 January 2005; accepted 6 May 2005.
Abstract
Background
Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.
Methods
Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.
Results
In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.
Conclusions
Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.
December 5th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
“Citations, please.”
So billy, still working on those question I posed, or have you just given up?
Your questions were based on a flawed assumption and not worthy of an answer.
I am still waiting for anyone to provide proof that prayer has caused an amputated limb to regrow. That would be proof of the efficacy of prayer, but none is forthcoming.
Should you have such proof, please post it, if you don’t, then you must concede the point that there is no evidence for prayer working as the sole healing agent.
You are referring to a study on intercessory prayer only there billy, generally I don’t see how that would work unless the recipient is aware of the support and it helps their attitude.
It’s well known that a positive attitude to recovery helps significantly, and I can understand how personal prayer can help with attitude and determination to succeed. I think the same can be achieved without prayer by prayer seems to be a useful personal tool for many people.
And intercessory prayer is where I began this conversation after my meeting with the Rangiora CofE mob who think that their prayers in their church cause healing.
I don’t dispute the usefulness of a positive attitude, but that is NOT the same as claiming that prayer cures.
Sorry Pete, you’re missing the point. We’re not talking about the benefits of a positive outlook which you might get from having a good chat with your God. We’re talking about God healing someone in response to prayer. I.e. God hears someone pray and thinks “Oh, I must take a little time off from my schedule as an all-knowing and all-powerful God, and cure that person of their ailment”.
If there was evidence, we’d certainly have heard about it. There would be papers in medical journals and the churches would be all over it. They’d be funding studies to reproduce the results etc. They’d be shouting it from the rooftops, rather than just talking about it amongst the believers.
And as predictable as the tides, here comes redbaiter with yet another content free post. A bit like Sarah “I can’t be fucked being governor anymore” Palin, brain dead knuckle dragging stone age Randian dingbats the pair of them.
Malcolm, if someone is sick, prays and it aids their recover, does it matter what the semantics are? If someone thinks their “god” helped them what’s the problem with that? Research has shown the placebo effect can be effective sometimes too, if someone thinks a sugar pill will cure them and they recover does it matter if it was possibly a psychological boost rather than medical or not?
We should introduce it here, why the hell should state house and private rental bludgers get away without paying the local council for its services?”
Disingenuous Bruv – rates are factored in to rental prices. When you charge rent you (or your accountant) allow for maintenance, management fees, rates etc. You have gross income less expenses which is what gives you your net income which is what you are taxed on. (Or your losses are offset in an LAQC). In effect the rates on your investment property are being paid for you, not the other way around.
Just because it isn’t called rates on the invoice doesn’t mean it isn’t in there.
As for the relative merits or lack of with a Poll Tax, I was only using it as an example of how the Poms deal with wayward politicians compared to the sheep here.
How fucking tragic is it when 5000 bikers go to the Beehive and when asked to park their bike away from the main concourse they meekly comply! They should have said “get fucked” and ridden them straight through the front doors into the building.
Kaya, you are another misinformed renter. Read my posts above re the situation of rates. Law says Landlords cannot charge rates to their tenants. end of story so rates are a direct claim on the landlords pocket. End of story. Occasionally landlords collect more rent than their other expenses. This is normally known as profit. That profit is then taxed by rates and by taxation.
Not complicated at all. And yes all citizens should contribute fairly to the costs of their community services and assets. More fairly they should pay for what they use.
Viking2 – No I’m not a renter, my partner and I own two properties. (The rates on one of them have gone up more than tenfold over the last 15 years!!) I know what the law says but the law as we all know is a load of old bollocks.
People generally buy property (other than the family home) as an investment in the hope of either a capital gain over a period of time and/or an annual income stream. When someone calculates the annual return on rental property as being say 5%, this is net after all costs including rates, it may not be called rates but it is in there. Please don’t plead the poor hard done buy landlord as if you are providing a service to the nation at great personal sacrifice.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with a user pays system in principle but it will never happen. Those who can’t afford it will be subsidised by those who can. Not a perfect system but preferable to massive homelessness and poverty. It’s a matter of somehow changing the mentality of entitlement that many have and creating a positive society where people feel good about contributing, not perpetually trying to scam and weasel out of paying for anything at every opportunity.
Malcolm, if someone is sick, prays and it aids their recover, does it matter what the semantics are? If someone thinks their “god” helped them what’s the problem with that?
Nothing at all. But that isn’t what we were discussing. We were discussing whether there’s any evidence that praying can elicit help from God. And as with most of these discussions, at heart it’s the question of whether God exists.
If someone believes in God and the power of prayer, how do they reconcile that with the absence of any evidence that prayer works? Hence the question about amputees.
December 5th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
How many more troughers are hiding in the ranks of National?
A former Government minister is being investigated by police for allegedly using his ex-MP perk of taxpayer-funded flights on business trips and then claiming driving mileage from the charity he headed.
Detectives have executed search warrants on the Auckland home of Roger McClay, a National Party MP for 15 years, and seized financial records from Keep New Zealand Beautiful, of which he was the chairman.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10613613
Former Cabinet minister Sir Douglas Graham says he would give up his international travel subsidy in exchange for a pension increase – but only when he is too old to fly.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10590428
December 5th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
A call to all National party politicians and MSM ‘journalists’ –
Repent now – the end is near(er) than you think.
Can’t get this song out of my head – Theme song for an uprising?
Take the power back.
December 5th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
One would suspect that if MPs are rorting the system that the likely hood of this being only Nat Mps is somewhat remote.
If I were you billyborker I would be a little bit carefull about what you say before labour MPs (or any party)are investigated.
December 5th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Why? I am simply relaying what is in the news.
December 5th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Another Saturday; another General Debate destroyed from the very first comment.
Still, I suppose we should be grateful that billyborker isn’t abusing Christians or the differently-abled – yet!
December 5th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
The convergence of stupidity 2010 will feature the two loony superstars of the far right: Palin, Bachmann to headline Tea Party convention.
(CNN) – Sarah Palin will be the main attraction at what’s being billed as the “First National Tea Party Convention.”
Tea Party Nation announced Wednesday that last year’s Republican vice presidential candidate will serve as keynote speaker for the conference, scheduled to take place in Nashville, Tennessee February 4-6. A representative for Palin has confirmed the former Alaska governor’s speaking role at the gathering.
The group also announced that Rep. Michele Bachmann will be speaking at the gathering as well. The Minnesota Republican has become a hero among many in the conservative movement. A representative for Bachmann confirms her speaking role.
December 5th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Conservative intellectual Sarah Palin says it’s “a fair question” whether Obama is a citizen of the United States.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1209/Palin_Obama_birth_certificate_a_fair_question.html?showall
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/35270_Sarah_Palin-_Obamas_Nirth_Certifikit_A_Fair_Question
The wingnuts have found their queen.
December 5th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
So Maurice(of what leaky homes dept.) decides to throw his toys out of the cot.
Another National fail (along with their socialist mates at Liarbor.)
Mayors fail to agree on leaky-homes
By JOHN HARTEVELT – The Dominion Post
Last updated 05:00 05/12/2009
The number of leaky-home owners is growing by nearly one a day as negotiations for a Government-led solution have hit an impasse.
The six-party mayoral forum looking for a solution with the Government has been scrapped and responsibility handed solely to Auckland Mayor John Banks and Wellington Mayor Kerry Prendergast.
“The fact of the matter is, we’re at a sticky stage,” Mr Banks said last night.
“It’s not a great criticism of my mayoral colleagues, it’s just this is very hard. It is very difficult to fix a complex problem with a committee.”
Figures issued on Thursday by the Housing and Building Department show claims to the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service topped 5916 as of November 30.
There were 21 new claims lodged in November and there have been 517 new claims lodged since January last year.
Auckland has topped 2002 claims, Wellington 357 and Christchurch 231.
Home Owners and Buyers Association president John Gray said it was “morally reprehensible” that the Government was sitting on a solution while the list of victims grew.
“They are just consigning more and more people to the scrap heap as every day goes by,” Mr Gray said.
“It’s awful when you sit around the mediation table and you look in to the eyes of people who have unwittingly become victims of this. It’s pretty depressing.”
The “body count” of homeowners was growing alongside builders and architects – many of whom were not deserving of the agony, he said.
Building and Construction Minister Maurice Williamson has been involved in tense negotiations since August with the six mayors, searching for an agreement.
They are trying to agree on how to pay an estimated $11.5 billion bill to repair the thousands of Kiwi homes rotting from water that has leaked into poorly designed or built homes.
Mr Banks said the latest forum ended “in custard”, with Mr Williamson putting the phone down on a tele-conference.
Mr Williamson had been “antagonised” by some of the mayors, Mr Banks said.
“We don’t lecture to the other mayors, we respect them. But I think the time has now arrived where the two of us [he and Ms Prendergast] should pick up the sensitive negotiations.”
The Government has reportedly offered a package to shoulder 10 per cent of the cost of repairing leaky homes.
Their contribution would be through suspensory loans for victims aged over 65 and on limited incomes; interest bill subsidies for those on annual incomes under $76,000; housing assessments and mediation; and a universal loan guarantee scheme to help victims access bank finance.
Mr Banks said he and Ms Prendergast would ask the Government for more. “We’re trying to wring out some more equity. In the meantime, the victims continue to suffer.”
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A spokeswoman for Mr Williamson said he was meeting Prime Minister John Key and Finance Minister Bill English regularly.
“A lot of thought and hard work has gone on and it continues,” the spokeswoman said.
Ms Prendergast said it had been impossible to negotiate with a bigger group of mayors because leaks to the media had undermined negotiations.
“We’ve decided to proceed just with a smaller group.”
I remind you that Maurice and Bill and flip flop flap key decided to front up with 10% of the repair cost. That is after you have paid the 12.5 % GST. Have we got a deal for you? Want to buy a bridge?
December 5th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
There is a very good article in the latest “The Gauntlet” about leaky homes.
It was written by an architect.
December 5th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Inventory2 (3767) Vote: 2 0 Says:
December 5th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Still, I suppose we should be grateful that billyborker isn’t abusing Christians or the differently-abled – yet!
Had my fill of that earlier today in Rangiora when the god botherers stopped me and tried to talk about healing with prayer. I asked them why no prayer has ever resulted in the regrowth of an amputated limb and they had no asnwer. The only ills “cured” by nprayer are those where medical intervention has prevailed or where there is a spontaneous bodilly healing, not because some poor bastard begged god.
These people should be jailed for preying on the vulnerable.
December 5th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Got a link for that?
December 5th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Sounds like a surreptitious, UN-funded promotion to increase attendance. It’ll have Helen’s fingerprints all over it
December 5th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
so billy, are you saying that no one has ever been healed through prayer, and anyone who claims to have been, or to have witnessed this are liars?
December 5th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
getstaffed, are YOU saying prayer will re grow an amputed limb? If so, please supply a reference. Otherwise there is the proof that prayer does not heal, or can prayer only heal, as I said above, the stuff that fixes itself or the stuff doctors work on.
So yes, I AM saying no one has ever been healed through prayer, but not all the claimants are liars, some are simply deluded, misguided or fooled by conjuring tricks.
Even double blind studies on prayer for people in hospital have shown no evidence for the efficacy of prayer above the placebo effect.
December 5th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
If I had to live in Rangiora I would be very happy if people prayed for me.
December 5th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
billy, I have seen two people healed following prayer on two separate occasions. If you subscribe to the idea of random self-healing then that’s probably how you’d explain it. I have a Christian faith, Christ both spoke of healing and so that’s how I explain it. I have also seen plenty is occasions – actually the majority – where prayer did not result in healing. I have never seen nor heard of an amputated limb re-growing.
And as for “I AM saying no one has ever been healed through prayer” you’re probably not in the best position to judge this. You may never have been, you may not believe it’s possible, but that’s probably the extent any assertion you’re able to make.
December 5th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Johnboy
If you lived in Rangiora then you would be married to your sister and all of your kids would have a third arm.
December 5th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Baaah!
December 5th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Barack Obama is heading to Climatehagen with a promise that U.S. emissions in 2050 will be 83 percent below 2005 levels. If so, 2050 emissions will equal those in 1910, when there were 92 million Americans. But there will be 420 million Americans in 2050, so Obama’s promise means that per capita emissions then will be about what they were in 1875.
Obama may not be that smart, but he must have legions of very smart advisors to warn him off making these ridiculous offers. I’m not sure what’s less credible – Obama clock windback, or Phil Jones’s ‘the dog ate my climate homework’, or Algore ‘it’s a million degrees 2kms down’
December 5th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Pathetic comment big blouse.
December 5th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
getstaffed (4362) Vote: 1 1 Says:
December 5th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
billy, I have seen two people healed following prayer on two separate occasions. If you subscribe to the idea of random self-healing then that’s probably how you’d explain it. I have a Christian faith, Christ both spoke of healing and so that’s how I explain it.
Is this the same Christ who was so scientifically illiterate that he thought disease was caused by sin, that illness was caused by demonic posession and that fig trees should bear fruit out of season just because he was hungry?
I wouldn’t put much store in HIM.
But back to the question – if prayer heals, why does it only heal the easy things? Why can’t an amputed limb regrow?
December 5th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
A couple of Christmases ago, there was a big article in Investigate about healing, detailing six healing miracles, one of which took place at Starship hospital and which doctors can’t explain.
Truth be told, I don’t think billy would believe in God even if a miracle happened right in front of him. Some people just don’t want to believe. The argument he uses here he got from some atheist site and I bet he’d been waiting ages for some Christians to come along and gleefully use it on. He’s not looking for answers and doesn’t wonder if there is a God or not, he just wants to sock it to those who do believe.
As for his term ‘god botherer’, billy seems to be more bothered about God than a Christian is…lol
December 5th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Fletch – Agree. If ones presupposition is that there is no God, and no spirtual realm then any debate about the intersection of the nautual and supernatural is valueless. It’s a tough crusade for billy. Most athiests I know are perfectly comfortable around people of various faiths, but not him it would appear.
December 5th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
When you talk to God it is called prayer, when God talks to you is called schizophrenia.
Good luck to those who believe in religion. I don’t.
December 5th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Fletch (665) Vote: 0 0 Says:
December 5th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
A couple of Christmases ago, there was a big article in Investigate about healing, detailing six healing miracles, one of which took place at Starship hospital and which doctors can’t explain.
And we all know Investigate is a world renowned, unbiased medical journal. Yeah, right.
I read the article in question, and there was no proof offerred of anything miraculous. Simply because smothing cannot be explained is no proof of god.
Truth be told, I don’t think billy would believe in God even if a miracle happened right in front of him. Some people just don’t want to believe.
You’re right there, I DON’T want to believe, I want evidence, proof, replication. Knowledge always trumps belief. However, if I did witness a miracle, I’d be open to change my point of view, I just never have, and never will, witness a miracle.
The argument he uses here he got from some atheist site and I bet he’d been waiting ages for some Christians to come along and gleefully use it on.
Wether or not that is a true statement does nothing to advance your case that prayer heals. A regrown limb, on the other hand, would. Why is it so hard for god to regrow limbs?
December 5th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Like you billy I don’t really believe in God but then again I have never spent any time in a foxhole either so I might just keep my options open for now as regards miracles and such like.
December 5th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
So you believe the old line “There are no atheists in fox holes”? So how come god lets so many of his children die in them?
December 5th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
Getstaffed, how do you reconcile your rational and evidence-based investigation of climate change, with your evidence-free belief in the power of praying to God?
You said that in the majority of cases you have seen, prayer did not correlate with a positive outcome. Yet in the two cases where it did, you think prayer was the reason. But do you have any evidence to support that? I’m guessing no, because you said “If you subscribe to the idea of random self-healing then that’s probably how you’d explain it.” Your choice of words give the impression that one would need a belief in an unproven theory of self-healing to not attribute the outcome to prayer. Which isn’t true. You just need an appreciation of natural variance and the imperfect nature of medical treatments.
The “you won’t understand unless you’re a Christian” argument is very weak. Either there’s evidence for all to see, or there’s none, for all to see. In which case it’s just wishful thinking.
December 5th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
billy, it’s God that heals, not prayer. You don’t believe in the existence of God so can’t accept that healing occurs. That’s fair enough.
However I reject the notion that you want evidence, proof, and replication. What your comments demonstrate is that you want to deny the right of others to believe, in the absence of that evidence, proof, and replication.
December 5th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Billyborker at al.
Have you ever heard of Lourdes? Hundreds of cures, scientifically and medically examined before and after the event, with no expalnation other than a miracle – and the event and medical opinions and examinations all recorded, by secular, not Catholic or other religious medicos.
Actually, I think there is a case of a limb growing back through prayer – I’ll see if I can find it.
December 5th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
malcolm – sorry, I’m heading out so a short reply. Yes there was evidence, so my belief is not evidence free. Confounded doctors at Wellington Hospital in one instance. The other was quite a few years ago and I can’t honestly recall what documented evidence there was.. other than an healthy person who was gravely ill in hospital two days earlier. I’ve also seen many lives changed as a result of people accepting Christ. So I’m probably at the rationalist end of the religious spectrum! I completely accept your comment re weakness of the “you won’t understand unless you’re a Christian” thing, so feel free to ping me if I use it.
December 5th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
I can’t answer that billy not currently being a religious bloke (I will leave it to the truly pious who appear to be present at the moment) but I am pretty certain if I was in my foxhole amongst the incoming I would be seriously considering the power of prayer
December 5th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
Don, good luck, but I doubt you’ll find it. Lourdes has been exposed as a fake, a catholic disneyland if you like, for a long time.
December 5th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
getstaffed (4365) Vote: 0 0 Says:
December 5th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
malcolm – sorry, I’m heading out so a short reply. Yes there was evidence, so my belief is not evidence free. Confounded doctors at Wellington Hospital in one instance. The other was quite a few years ago and I can’t honestly recall what documented evidence there was.. other than an healthy person who was gravely ill in hospital two days earlier
Perhaps your anecdote would be more complelling if the sick person spent 2 days in a remote African village without modern medecine. Just what do you think happened during those two days in hospital?
December 5th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
@Don the Kiwi
That doctors can’t explain why someone recovered, doesn’t automatically mean that God sorted it when he heard someone pray. There’s lots that doctors cannot explain. For a long time no one could explain why some people got better from scurvy and others didn’t. By your reasoning, the cure for scurvy must be prayer and crossing your fingers. When in fact you just needed a bit of vitamin C.
That would certainly help the debate along. Please have a look for us.
December 5th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
@Getstaffed
Confounded doctors aren’t evidence of a miracle, of course. That would imply that doctors know everything and medicines are perfect and their results perfectly understood.
There have been a double-bind experiments on the power of prayer and it has been found wanting. Of course we can’t discount the possibility that God was just playing silly-buggers to throw us off the scent.
I will
cheers
December 5th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Interesting article from New Scientist for fletch, getstafed, et al.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18216-dear-god-please-confirm-what-i-already-believe.html
“Intuiting God’s beliefs on important issues may not produce an independent guide, but may instead serve as an echo chamber to validate and justify one’s own beliefs,” writes a team led by Nicholas Epley of the University of Chicago in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
The researchers started by asking volunteers who said they believe in God to give their own views on controversial topics, such as abortion and the death penalty. They also asked what the volunteers thought were the views of God, average Americans and public figures such as Bill Gates. Volunteers’ own beliefs corresponded most strongly with those they attributed to God.
(…)
Other researchers say the findings reinforce earlier studies suggesting that thinking about God is intimately linked to the imagination.
These experiments “support previous findings that representations of God seem intimately related to the self, also in terms of brain function”, says Uffe Schjødt of Aarhus University in Denmark, whose research published earlier this year showed that praying uses similar brain regions as talking to a friend.
December 5th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
The Nats and leaky homes, I’m sure the Nats will be able to do what Labour did with the problem, have a talk fest until they are out of power then it becomes Labour’s problem.
If some are helped what happens to those who used private inspection services while the house was being built, does the free market mantra apply ?
December 5th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
billyborker.
“Lourdes has been exposed as a fake…..
Care to provide documentary evidence? Because there is a heap of evidence showing its real – certainly no fake.
Still haven’t found about the limb growing back. From memory, it occurred in Italy about 30 or 40 years ago. IIRC, A guy had his leg amputated in an accident; it grew back about 3 weeks later over a period of a few days (after a lot of prayer, of course)- the details could be incorrect, so I’ll keep searching.
December 5th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Then why didn’t you post any of the evidence lourdes “is real”?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/mar/09/france.religion
To its eternal discredit, the Roman Catholic Church investigated Soubirous’s claims for four years before approving devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes. Since then, the Church has validated 67 miracles at Lourdes* (of the thousands that have been reported*) and canonized the peasant girl.* (Her body, which is on display, is alleged to be incorruptible, but the face and hands, which look so lifelike, are made of wax.) It is estimated that in recent years about 5 million pilgrims a year visit the shrine at Lourdes. Over the past 150 years, some 200 million people have made the pilgrimage.* For those who care, that’s a success rate of .0000335% or 1 out of every 3 million. Furthermore, since 1947 anyone claiming a miraculous cure has to go before a medical board. “From 1947 to 1990, only 1,000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognized in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before 1914.”* Since 1978, there have been only four recognized cures.* So, if you’re thinking of going to Lourdes for a miracle cure, the odds are not very high in your favor. Pilgrims might find some consolation in a British study that tested miracle-seekers at regular intervals for a year after they visited Lourdes and found that they were significantly less anxious and depressed.* Who wouldn’t be cheered up by a trip to southern France and by being surrounded by people much worse off than yourself?
Of all the cures alleged to have occurred at Lourdes, however, none have involved dramatic, unambiguous events like the growing back of a severed limb. Belgian philosopher Etienne Vermeersch likened this fact to the lack of clear, unambiguous data in support of the existence of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. He also claimed that there have probably been significantly more fatal accidents suffered by pilgrims on their way to or from Lourdes than there have been cures.
http://www.skepdic.com/lourdes.html
December 5th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Not sure why people are responding to billy’s obvious strawman.
When billy posts these things I prefer to ask him other questions unrelated to his. It usually confuses the poor fellow and he retires early.
So billy, what are your reasons behind your belief (which I assume you have) that truth is preferable to deception, right is better than wrong, and good is higher than evil?
December 5th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
It’s been proven that prayer can have a positive influence on many things, including recovery from illness. I don’t pray at all but I accept that it can help others. I believe I have other ways of achieving similar determination and resolve, but if prayer is a successful way of doing it for some then why not?
December 5th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Shit, talk about a dressing down for Bernanke! Found this at the Daily Reckoning……..
“In yesterday’s confirmation hearing for his second four-year term as Federal Reserve chairman, Ben Bernanke received a thorough tongue-lashing from Senator Jim Bunning (R-KY). Here are a few highlights from the transcript as well as the video…”
* “…you put the printing presses into overdrive to fund the government’s spending and hand out cheap money to your masters on Wall Street, which they use to rake in record profits while ordinary Americans and small businesses can’t even get loans for their everyday needs.”
* “…you have decided that just about every large bank, investment bank, insurance company, and even some industrial companies are too big to fail. Rather than making management, shareholders, and debt holders feel the consequences of their risk-taking, you bailed them out. In short, you are the definition of moral hazard.”
* “Because you bowed to pressure from the banks and refused to resolve them or force them to clean up their balance sheets and clean out the management, you have created zombie banks that are only enriching their traders and executives. You are repeating the mistakes of Japan in the 1990s on a much larger scale, while sowing the seeds for the next bubble.”
* “From monetary policy to regulation, consumer protection, transparency, and independence, your time as Fed Chairman has been a failure.”
Here is a link to the full grilling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvgdX58Ii7c
Interesting how he refers to “The Creature From Jekyll Island” at the end. Anyone who is remotely interested in the cause of the meltdown in the monetary system should watch it. A very well put explanation of the Fed and how it was formed by deceit. Most Americans (or anybody for that matter) presume it is an arm of Government. Wrong!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIs4ckyKSDA
Don’t believe the bullshit that the recession is over, round 2 is on it’s way and it will be bigger than the last one. The only thing keeping the appearance of normality going is the mickey mouse money being pumped in by the Fed.
All the real indicator are off the scale, the bottom of the scale.
The video shows the Federal Reserve for what it is, an absolute rort that is not a Government institution as most Americans believe and that it is slowly destroying the West like a cancer. Ron Paul is trying to get a bill through to have the Fed audited. Fucking freaky that he has to resort to that and that it isn’t already in the top 5 list of “essential things required for running a country”.
Apparently the UK debt is now over 2 trillion NZ dollars or $100000 per household. The bank execs are threatening to quit their jobs if they don’t get big bonuses, they should be taken out and shot instead. I have a funny feeling when the Poms wake up to this it might actually happen, they aren’t renowned for being sheeples like us down here. Remember the Poll Tax.
And in case you think it isn’t anything to do with us, just remember, Bill and John are borrowing 250 million every week on behalf of your kids and grandkids. Don’t bother sitting down with a calculator, it’ll ruin your Xmas.
December 5th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
grumpyoldhori (1000) Vote: Add rating 3 Subtract rating 0 Says:
December 5th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
The Nats and leaky homes, I’m sure the Nats will be able to do what Labour did with the problem, have a talk fest until they are out of power then it becomes Labour’s problem.
You just put up “running the Government 101″. Irrelevant who is in charge, it’s all about perception, nothing to do with substance.
December 5th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
This is interesting… as is the UK government’s response – attempting block the process. The science isn’t settled… it’s being squashed!
What a nice little curveball for the port & cigar crowd to studiously ignore at the Climatehagen summit.
December 5th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
And Gordon Brown:
Mr Brown last night insisted that the science on climate change in settled, and accused those who question the consensus of being outdated.
He said: “With only days to go before Copenhagen we mustn’t be distracted by the behind-the-times, anti-science, flat-earth climate sceptics. We know the science. We know what we must do.”
What an idiot. It’s not about the science, and it’s not about the climate. It’s about leverage for an incrementally evolving global governance regime.
December 5th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Pete George (2502) Vote: 1 0 Says:
December 5th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
It’s been proven that prayer can have a positive influence on many things, including recovery from illness.
Citations, please.
December 5th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
I am disappointed that comments on “R v Internet Part II” have gone dead. After working out, from David’s posting this morning of the screen grab, who the person is, des[ite the areas blocked out, I still am intrigued to know what the position may be:
Is some one guilty of breaking a court suppression of identity, if they do not actually reveal a name, but make sufficient information available for someone else to determine the name themselves, even if that information requires some further deduction?
December 5th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
You can tell climategate is breathing down their necks by their current rhetoric. QUICK QUICK PASS PUNITIVE TAXES NOW BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE IGNORE THE DOUBTERS. They want it over and done with before the fraud is out in full view and it’s too late to reverse the damage.
Brown will be one of the first to hang.
December 5th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
“Actually, I think there is a case of a limb growing back through prayer ..”
I have a bridge (in excellent condition) for sale. Are you interested?
December 5th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
If you want to pray for a limb growing back, then pray for that maggot Burton.
When his leg grows back a needy person can have his artificial one
December 5th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
“Citations, please.”
So billy, still working on those question I posed, or have you just given up?
You really are a loser, aren’t you.
Don’t worry billy, whenever you raise Christianity in future, I’ll be back. Suggest you TRY to answer them.
Loser.
December 5th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
@kaya 5:57
Amen.
Not that the sheeple will wake up.
December 5th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
kaya
The Poll tax is/was a great idea.
We should introduce it here, why the hell should state house and private rental bludgers get away without paying the local council for its services?
December 5th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
No question big bruv. All the councils etc are rorting the ratepayers and landowners to pay for the amenities for the citizens of their towns.
The sooner its stopped the better. All that is required is for a minor change to the Residential Tenancies Act so that Landlords can charge their tenants rates. Will have an effect quite quickly on what the councils etc spend ratepayers money on. All the lefties that rent will find God when their pockets get hit and gone will be the nice to haves leaving the essentials. Anything else should be paid for by the citizens as they use them..
Heatley is the Man in charge and so far this last 12 months apart from being caught rorting the system he hasn’t been seen anywhere. I have asked him to get the Act changed but its in the to hard basket and is leaving it with Rodney. Another useless gutless unprincipled Nat I’m afraid.
December 5th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
Poll Tax at current would be a terrible idea BB.
Why should those who don’t own a house pay the council for housing services when they don’t own one, land owners just want a bubble market for housing and none of the consequences.
December 5th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Well who is it that uses those services. The landlord can only crap once a day, drink so much water, drive one car at a time, play one sport, use the library occasionally etc etc. All citizens use those services and everyone should pay. That’s fair isn’t it?
If it isn’t then tell us why!.
And what has a poll tax got to do with housing bubbles? Your logic escapes me. A poll tax may well slow down the increase for the reason that people would make better spending decisions based on their ability to sustain their lifestyles and therefore councils would not need to collect some much tax from new developments.
December 5th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Because the citizens who rent the house have already subsidized the land lord to build it in the first place?
December 5th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
This from a speach by the Givenor RBNZ
Address to the 2009 Whitlam Institute Symposium
Dr Ken Henry
Australian Secretary to the Treasury
Australian Government expenditure grew from 18.9 per cent of GDP in 1971-72, the last full budget year before the Whitlam Government came to power, to 24.8 per cent of GDP in 1975-76, the last budget delivered by the Whitlam Government, representing spending growth of around 56 per cent in real terms.
In the three and a half decades since, while there have been significant annual fluctuations, the average level of spending by the Australian government has changed little, to be around 25¼ per cent of GDP.4
http://www.nzcpr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18&sid=7f16d5be4c254a2871fcd045995dcf93&p=26663#p26663
Interesting to note that Govt. expenditure is less than 25.5% of GDP there yet When Dr Don propsed we meet the same sort of level all the fruit cakes and bludgers came out from their closets and hopeless editors of the left MSM and their equally useless journo’s embarked on a campaign to discredit his report.
December 5th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
Has Telecom scrapped its web design budget? WTF is this?.
December 5th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Banana
As pointed out by V2 council services are used by everybody, so why on earth should I subsidise renters and state house bludgers?
The Poll tax is the fairest form of local body tax, everybody pays their share.
December 5th, 2009 at 9:54 pm
Banana, you need to invest some of your money in being a landlord. What a lesson for you it would be. I am at loss to see how a renter subsidies the landlord for building the house. The rent paid is for the use of the housing facility i.e. the ground,four walls and the roof containing the amenities. In most cases rents on a mortgage free house will return a landlord 5-6%. No we can get that in the bank with no risk, no absconding tenants, no damage and no rates bill.
Apart from that the RTA specifically prevents a landlord from charging tenants for rates, whereas a commercial tenancy allows for this to happen.
December 5th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
Why should renters subsidise your insulation? why should farmers not be able to develop their land for housing? everyone is at the public tit in some way Big Bruv although i am sympathetic to the idea of a poll tax i would like to see greater reform before it was introduced.
This may shock you Viking but i did own a house in Flaxmere once upon a time.
December 5th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
The concept of ‘share’ is, sadly, is the problem here. Our socialist DNA now has ingrained the idea that those that have provided for themselves should pay for those that can’t / won’t / aren’t prepared.
December 5th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
Some Tiger jokes …. (‘Crouching Tiger; Hidden Hydrant‘)
Tiger Woods is so rich that he owns lots of expensive cars. Now he has a hole in one.
What’s the difference between a car and a golf ball? Tiger can drive a ball 400 yards.
What were Tiger Woods and his wife doing out at 2.30 in the morning?
They went clubbing
Tiger Woods crashed into a fire hydrant and a tree. He couldn’t decide between a wood and an iron.
At the station, the cop asks: ‘What you here for?’ Tiger says:
‘tree’.
… and my favorite …
What club did Elin use to ‘rescue’ her husband? A bitching wedge.
December 5th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
Banana; What’s this about ? Why should renters subsidise your insulation?
As far as I am aware they don’t. If you are referring to the current Govt. subsidy to insulate housing then that is available to any house owner that lives in their own house and to landlords whose tenants have a Community /service Card.
I personally don’t consider that IT IS A DESIRABLE WAY OF SPENDING TAX PAYERS MONEY.
December 5th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
It would depend on the brand you use Viking if you buy Pinkbats then you are buying subsidized insulation.
I’m quite sure certain types of timber used in housing receives a government subsidy as well but i will check on that, I used insulation because i know for certain it receives subsidy’s from the point of manufacture all the way through distribution to installation.
December 5th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
More evidence for the socialist commandeering of the AGW con, as if anymore is needed:
http://www.sera.org.uk/fileadmin/copenhagen_final.pdf
December 6th, 2009 at 7:11 am
# billyborker at 6:34 pm:
(It’s been proven that prayer can have a positive influence on many things, including recovery from illness.) Citations, please.
December 6th, 2009 at 7:31 am
The Barbarians beat the All Blacks 25-18.
Is John Key doing a “Me Too” on Helen Clark’s legacy of the All blacks losing streak? He should have listened to the 2025 taskforce and started to change New Zealand’s fortune. Doesn’t bode well for the Rugby World Cup in 2011.
December 6th, 2009 at 8:58 am
Thanks for those Pete, but there is little in the way of hard research, in fact some almost read like a religious tract, not serious study of the topic.
The biggest study ever undertaken found no significant effect in prayer.
Volume 151, Issue 4, Pages 934-942 (April 2006)
Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: A multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer
Herbert Benson, MDal, Jeffery A. Dusek, PhDal, Jane B. Sherwood, RNm, Peter Lam, PhDm, Charles F. Bethea, MDb, William Carpenter, MDivc, Sidney Levitsky, MDd, Peter C. Hill, MDe, Donald W. Clem Jr., MAf, Manoj K. Jain, MD, MPHg, David Drumel, MDivgh, Stephen L. Kopecky, MDi, Paul S. Mueller, MDj, Dean Marekk, Sue Rollins, RN, MPHb, Patricia L. Hibberd, MD, PhDlm
Received 5 January 2005; accepted 6 May 2005.
Abstract
Background
Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.
Methods
Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.
Results
In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.
Conclusions
Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.
http://www.ahjonline.com/article/S0002-8703(05)00649-6/abstract
See also
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1072638.ece
http://chem.tufts.edu/tufts-ssa/PrayerHealing.html
December 6th, 2009 at 9:07 am
reid (3471) 4 1 Says:
December 5th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
“Citations, please.”
So billy, still working on those question I posed, or have you just given up?
Your questions were based on a flawed assumption and not worthy of an answer.
I am still waiting for anyone to provide proof that prayer has caused an amputated limb to regrow. That would be proof of the efficacy of prayer, but none is forthcoming.
Should you have such proof, please post it, if you don’t, then you must concede the point that there is no evidence for prayer working as the sole healing agent.
December 6th, 2009 at 9:31 am
You are referring to a study on intercessory prayer only there billy, generally I don’t see how that would work unless the recipient is aware of the support and it helps their attitude.
It’s well known that a positive attitude to recovery helps significantly, and I can understand how personal prayer can help with attitude and determination to succeed. I think the same can be achieved without prayer by prayer seems to be a useful personal tool for many people.
December 6th, 2009 at 10:05 am
And intercessory prayer is where I began this conversation after my meeting with the Rangiora CofE mob who think that their prayers in their church cause healing.
I don’t dispute the usefulness of a positive attitude, but that is NOT the same as claiming that prayer cures.
December 6th, 2009 at 10:27 am
Sorry Pete, you’re missing the point. We’re not talking about the benefits of a positive outlook which you might get from having a good chat with your God. We’re talking about God healing someone in response to prayer. I.e. God hears someone pray and thinks “Oh, I must take a little time off from my schedule as an all-knowing and all-powerful God, and cure that person of their ailment”.
If there was evidence, we’d certainly have heard about it. There would be papers in medical journals and the churches would be all over it. They’d be funding studies to reproduce the results etc. They’d be shouting it from the rooftops, rather than just talking about it amongst the believers.
December 6th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Oh, batshit Billy and his friends on their religious bikes again. What a shame they couldn’t take it to Billy’s boring blog.
December 6th, 2009 at 11:03 am
And as predictable as the tides, here comes redbaiter with yet another content free post. A bit like Sarah “I can’t be fucked being governor anymore” Palin, brain dead knuckle dragging stone age Randian dingbats the pair of them.
December 6th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Billy’s boring and derelict blog.
December 6th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Malcolm, if someone is sick, prays and it aids their recover, does it matter what the semantics are? If someone thinks their “god” helped them what’s the problem with that? Research has shown the placebo effect can be effective sometimes too, if someone thinks a sugar pill will cure them and they recover does it matter if it was possibly a psychological boost rather than medical or not?
December 6th, 2009 at 11:25 am
Big Bruv – “The Poll tax is/was a great idea.
We should introduce it here, why the hell should state house and private rental bludgers get away without paying the local council for its services?”
Disingenuous Bruv – rates are factored in to rental prices. When you charge rent you (or your accountant) allow for maintenance, management fees, rates etc. You have gross income less expenses which is what gives you your net income which is what you are taxed on. (Or your losses are offset in an LAQC). In effect the rates on your investment property are being paid for you, not the other way around.
Just because it isn’t called rates on the invoice doesn’t mean it isn’t in there.
As for the relative merits or lack of with a Poll Tax, I was only using it as an example of how the Poms deal with wayward politicians compared to the sheep here.
How fucking tragic is it when 5000 bikers go to the Beehive and when asked to park their bike away from the main concourse they meekly comply! They should have said “get fucked” and ridden them straight through the front doors into the building.
December 6th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Kaya, you are another misinformed renter. Read my posts above re the situation of rates. Law says Landlords cannot charge rates to their tenants. end of story so rates are a direct claim on the landlords pocket. End of story. Occasionally landlords collect more rent than their other expenses. This is normally known as profit. That profit is then taxed by rates and by taxation.
Not complicated at all. And yes all citizens should contribute fairly to the costs of their community services and assets. More fairly they should pay for what they use.
December 6th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Previous efforts WRT to a poll tax didn’t go down too well.
December 6th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Viking2 – No I’m not a renter, my partner and I own two properties. (The rates on one of them have gone up more than tenfold over the last 15 years!!) I know what the law says but the law as we all know is a load of old bollocks.
People generally buy property (other than the family home) as an investment in the hope of either a capital gain over a period of time and/or an annual income stream. When someone calculates the annual return on rental property as being say 5%, this is net after all costs including rates, it may not be called rates but it is in there. Please don’t plead the poor hard done buy landlord as if you are providing a service to the nation at great personal sacrifice.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with a user pays system in principle but it will never happen. Those who can’t afford it will be subsidised by those who can. Not a perfect system but preferable to massive homelessness and poverty. It’s a matter of somehow changing the mentality of entitlement that many have and creating a positive society where people feel good about contributing, not perpetually trying to scam and weasel out of paying for anything at every opportunity.
December 6th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Nothing at all. But that isn’t what we were discussing. We were discussing whether there’s any evidence that praying can elicit help from God. And as with most of these discussions, at heart it’s the question of whether God exists.
If someone believes in God and the power of prayer, how do they reconcile that with the absence of any evidence that prayer works? Hence the question about amputees.
December 6th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
What’s your point, Redbaiter?