How they voted
Grant Robertson blogs those who voted for letting communities decide, and those who voted against.
The breakdown by party was:
- National 49-9
- Labour 1-43 (incl Anderton)
- Green 0-9
- Maori 3-1 (1 not vote)
- ACT 5-0
- United Future 1-0
- Total 59-62
The only good thing about the bill being defeated is it means the issue won’t go away. If it has passed, allowing each community to decide their own policy for Easter Sunday (a day not even a public holiday), then the law would not be so broken, and people would stop agitating for change.
There is a reason there have been 11 bills seeking to change the law, and there will be more attempts. The religious conservatives and big unions were against late night shopping, Saturday shopping and Sunday shopping. They lost all those battles and will eventually lose this one. And it isn’t about the right to shop. I never shop on Sundays anyway – that is a day for drinking and the bars are all open. It is about who should decide what days and hours shops should open and close.
December 10th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Pertinent to state what I posted in today’s GD:
In view of the Easter trade bill defeat you can read the following statement and piss with uncontrolable laughter:
“The National Party was founded on principles of individual responsibility, private enterprise, and reward for individual effort. These principles are the only sure path to a society of personal freedom and rising standards of living for all.”
The National Party MPs who joined socialist Labour in voting against the bill are: 1) Bill English (Clutha-Southland ), 2) Phil Heatley (Whangarei), 3) Sam Lotu-Iiga (Maungakiekie), 4) Chester Borrows (Wanganui), 5) Tim Macindoe (Hamilton West), 6) Eric Roy (Invercargill), 7) Katrina Shanks (list), Shane Ardern (Taranaki-King Country), and 9) Jonathan Young (New Plymouth)
We certainly have a bunch of weasels in government.
December 10th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
“The religious conservatives and big unions were against ”
Jesus!, you don’t give up do you.
Is it that hard to admit that the vast majority of people do not want to be forced to work on these three and half days a year David?, must you keep pushing the line about unions and religious nutbars?
“There is a reason there have been 11 bills seeking to change the law, and there will be more attempts”
Yep, there sure is and it has NOTHING at all to do with choice, it is all about big business (who I support with a passion on the other 361.5 days a year) wanting the right to be open 24/7 and to take away the rights of ordinary people to arrange reunions and family time at the one time they know most people will be on holiday.
December 10th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Surely the best approach would have been to allow businesses to open, but legislate such staff have the absolute right to take these days as unpaid leave without prejudice to any other entitlement/obligation of their employment.
That way businesses could open if they had willing staff and close if they did not. Surely this must have been considered at select committee?
Perhaps this is too simplistic… but then again I’m just a narrow-minded religious conservative
December 10th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
If there have been eleven attempts without success, then perhaps you should stop trying, or try something different.
DPF, why don’t you do a post looking at the 11 failed attempts? Have they all been the same basic idea? Have the majorities been getting less?
December 10th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
getstaffed
Without wishing to sound rude it is too simplistic.
I well remember when Saturday shopping was introduced, the bullshit line from the MP’s was ‘of course nobody would be forced to work on Saturday’.
All that happened was anybody applying for a job with a company was told that Saturday work was expected of them, if the prospective employee said they were not interested in working Saturdays then they knew they would not get the job.
We on the right often rightly accuse the left of being duplicitous bastards with the legislation they introduced, on this we are being no better than them.
December 10th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Of course I don’t give up. That is why I’ll eventually win. If you believe a law is wrong, you should strive to change it. And as I have pointed out many times I support a law that would protect far far more workers for more days, than the status quo. I would support all workers in all non essential industries not beign able to be forced to work any of the four Easter days. The current law only protects a limited range of retail shops (not bars and cafes) in a limited range of locations on Friday and Sunday.
But this is the wonderful thing about unthinking conservatives who defend the status quo. They often don’t understand what they are defending – they just no they don’t want change.
Getstaffed – that is my position – all non-esential industry staff should have the right not to work on all foru Easter days.
The law prevents even sole owner run shops from opening.
December 10th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
“I would support all workers in all non essential industries not being able to be forced to work any of the four Easter days.”
Very laudable David, and as you know it is a law that is never going to be enforceable.
I know full well what I am defending David, I am defending the Kiwi lifestyle, a lifestyle that has been slowly eroded by people who want their minions to work the very days they would never dream of working.
What is next?, trading on Xmas day?, Anzac day?…if you are consistent then you I would see you demanding the right to work on those days as well.
[DPF: I support the right of employees and employers deciding to work those days. And I also support the right of people to protest outside a place that opened on ANZAC Day morning. I want individuals not the state making the decisions]
December 10th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
“If you believe a law is wrong, you should strive to change it.”
Will Key listen to you though DPF?
Key does not care if 87% of us believe a law is wrong, just as long as he thinks the law is fine as it is then nothing changes.
This government has shown they do not give a toss about democracy.
[DPF: John made it very clear that he would not change the law based on the referendum. He got elected on that basis. Now I think the law should be changed and have said so many times. And yes I'll keep saying so]
December 10th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Looks like a lot more of your union lefties than the boogie man “religious right” did the work DPF
December 10th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
“Of course I don’t give up. That is why I’ll eventually win.”
lol didnt realise you were that powerful
The tone of your Easter posts is very “standardish”. most disappointing.
I suspect the law will change. I reckon it will survive another 10 years. It will be a sad day too.
December 10th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
I am sorry DPF but you surely cannot believe what you are saying. The ordinary worker will be forced to work on those days if the employer requires it. You know it and I know it. For example a year or two ago one of our church people who works at McDonald’s couldn’t make it to the Good Friday service because she was required to work on that day. She wanted to come to church but she couldn’t — she had to work.
I think, as do many others, we should be supporting the Kiwi way of life. If I had my way I would be pushing for shops to close on Sundays again. Then people could have their weekends back. We would have less stress in families because people would be getting at least one day off a week. Also people could have that day off together. If everyone had Sundays off then it could be a real family day.
I am not so sure that people want every day of the year to be a shopping day. This one time I find myself in agreement with the Labor Party. And in disagreement with the National party who should be supporting the Kiwi way of life. The trouble with National is that too many of the MPs just think in terms of dollar signs. I hope they rethink their position.
And a special thumbs down to Peter Dunne — the formerly Christian MP who seems to want to run with the hares and hunt with the hounds.
December 10th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
DPF
“John made it very clear that he would not change the law based on the referendum”
He made no such assurance, in his usually wishy washy way he avoided answering the question, none of us were sure what he would do.
Many of us thought he might be a decent chap and do what the majority of us wanted, well how fucking silly we were.
What we should have realised is that Neville does indeed have principals, and if you don’t like them…..well he has others.
December 10th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Well David, regretfully I do not think you live in the real world of the Worker. You may live in the real world as the Employer perceives it. The majority of people employed in retail have absolutely no say in when or not they may work and this is in fact the case for many retail Employers. Take for example those retailers who have businesses in Malls which in most cities and many larger provincial towns is where many public shop and many are employed. It is not the Employer who chooses when to open and when to close.
They are dictated to by the Mall owners. Mainly, AMP and Westfield. Both foreign owned and neither of who could give a great Big Rats Backside about the New Zealand way of life or the ordinary Worker in New Zealand. If a Retailer in a Mall does not open when the Mall owner demands their Tenancy and Lease are canceled immediately. These Mall owners and subsequently the Retailer and Employer are only interested in the bottom line and how much can be squeezed out of all parties including the Employee.
Having seen the situation first hand,the Employer and Retailer also could not give a Big Rats Backside about their Employees well being, their families or their life in general. The only thing they are interested in is boosting sales so that the Mall owner can take even more in Rent from the turnover. You open your business and you work when you are told and if you don’t like it, push off. Except it is not that simple for the Employee. David, you may not have noticed, jobs are not a dime a dozen, even in the retail world. For example in Tauranga, advertised retail positions this week would have numbered two and both in Mall situations. A huge choice for those that don’t want to be dictated to by Mall owners and subsequently their Employers as to when or not they may work and usually this work requires a Saturday or Sunday or both attendance and if they have a family or spouse that has only those days off, too bad. The family suffers.
So I guess this is the way you want it. It is OK for all you who want the time on weekends to shop or go to the Bars or Pub as long as there is someone there to serve you, but I bet you wouldn’t want to do the job to the detriment of your family and friends.
Just as well I am self employed and can work when I choose.
December 10th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
What happens to shop owners who decide to ‘flaunt the law’ and stay open when the gummint says they should not?
http://www.inpho.co.nz
December 10th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Never thought I agree with big bruv, but on this one I do.
I don’t care about religion, nor about unions andI love to be able to shop 7 days a week and hey, I would love if the stores would be open a bit later than 5pm.
However having 3 and half days shopping free in a year is a great thing and it is not too much to ask.
And I disagree that it’s about choice. It’s about choice on the other 361.5 days. Is that not enough choice for you? Thats’ 99% of the time., but you still want that little 1%.
You proposition that workers should have the right to refuse to work on these days is very a theoretical one. Ultimately the pressure will be on the employees to work on those days rather than not.
I think it’s great that on 3 days a year the country comes to a halt. I couldn’t care less if it’s Easter Sunday or the first Wednesday in July.
But it’s great!
December 10th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Having been out of the country for most of the nineties, I missed the last National Government. I always wondered what National did wrong to get themselves voted out so decisively. This post explains it all. National as a party doesn’t give a stuff about the family, family life or the average worker. It’s all about the right to earn money. No wonder people go back to the more overtly socialist Labour Party who pretend to care.
We really need a real conservative party, but it would probably scare the socks off most New Zealanders.
December 10th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
eszett>Is that not enough choice for you? Thats’ 99% of the time., but you still want that little 1%.
I’ve decided that you should wear a black singlet, shorts, and gumboots all day for 3.5 days a year. Some people would argue that you should have the right to dress yourself all 365 days a year. But that is, by your argument, too much choice. You can decide what you wear 99% of the time, and I’ll decide the other 1%.
I’ve selected clothes that represent traditional NZ values… many people feel nostalgic for the past and therefore it should be compulsory to enjoy it several times a year.
One of those 3.5 days happens to be tomorrow, just coincidentally. For enforcement purposes, you’ll need to post photos of yourself wearing the required traditional NZ dress at work, at home, and in at least one bar or restaurant. But under no circumstance should you post a photo of yourself in a shop… there are too many shopping days already, and so you should avoid shopping even if you want to purchase something, the shop keeper wants to sell you something, and the shop staff prefer earning an income to being poor.
December 10th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
davidp
Any chance you might have to work Easter Sunday, Good Friday, Xmas day or Anzac day morning?
Thought not…..you just want the ‘right’ to go shopping.
December 10th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
big bruv…
I’m all in favour of not working on Anzac Day, since it is a day to reflect on and pay respect to the servicemen and women who have fought for NZ. I’m opposed to being forced to reflect on and respect Jesus, just because some of his minions think the law should force me to do so. And don’t make out that this isn’t religious… we’re talking one Sunday a year, the week changes from year to year, and it matches a christian festival.
But, since you asked, I’ve been away from home on work for over a month now. I have another week in front of me, and I suspect I’ll be away most of January and February. If someone moans because they were forced to work on Easter Sunday, then they should give thanks that they have a job and then they should harden the fuck up.
December 10th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
When you think about it this thread typifies all that is wrong with NZ and illustrates why we will always be a nation of small minded people who lag far behind Aussie.
How often does DPF post something that send so many of you into a fit of rage?, it may be about benefit fraud or it may be about social engineering, the usual suspects (of which I am one) will comment on it and demand change, 99% of the time to demand that change is easy for us as we are not the ones who will be affected.
The same is happening in this thread, a whole bunch of people want the ‘right’ to shop at Easter, some even say that they will never do so but see the issue as one of choice, namely that they themselves should have the choice to shop on these 3.5 days a year.
We see some seeking change because they think it is wrong to ‘deny’ workers the chance to earn extra money, others say it will decimate our tourist industry, and yet others see it as some great socialist conspiracy, still others tell us to ‘trust John”, well, we have seen how trust worthy the PM is and as far as I am concerned he is nothing but a first class bullshitter and the last person I would trust.
I suspect the ones making the most vocal arguments to have 365 day shopping are the very people who will NEVER have to work those days, to them this is an ideological issue, they argue their point with passion and they argue their point with no regard to the ordinary worker who will have NO SAY in the matter.
We Kiwis are full of good ideas, full of seemingly logical suggestions to the government about what to do with other sectors of society and how to fix their problem, however, all the pain and change should be suffered by those groups thank you very much, under no circumstances would they want to be forced to work Easter Sunday or Good Friday, as with other issues, the change is for other people to make.
So here is a challenge to all of you who just cannot go without your retail fix on Easter Sunday, if you want a law change then lets make it one that is right across the board, if we are going to allow Easter trading then lets have EVERYTHING OPEN.
Yes, that is right, all office workers, all Parliamentary staff and all MP’s, all teachers, all clerical workers, all government staff, every plumber, builder, mechanic, librarian, council worker, lawyer, doctor and dentist, every fucking single one of you.
If it is good enough for you to express your undying support for those poor bastards who will be ‘denied the chance to work in the retail trade then the very least you can do is be forced to work yourselves.
Like that idea?……………Didn’t think you would.
December 10th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Davidp
“I’m all in favour of not working on Anzac Day”
Then stop being such a hypocrite abut Easter.
“I’m opposed to being forced to reflect on and respect Jesus”
That is bullshit and well you know it, very few see Easter as anything other than a chance to relax and spend it with friends and family, I am the least religious person I know yet I am not threatened in any way by Easter being a traditional religious holiday.
December 10th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Your right Big Bruv, these Tossers who want the right to shop are probably the same Plonkers who don’t have to work weekends and Public Holidays, like Lawyers, Accountants, Statistians and others who really don’t understand or know how the bulk of people in the retail sector on $13-$17.00 per hour have to work to eek out a living. Not to mention the sacrifice of lack of time with the family. But there again, guess these Tosser will say, “They can get another job” but then who will provide the labour so that they can have the right to shop when they please.
December 10th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Conservatives and socialists….two sides of the same authoritarian coin.By what right dose anyone have to deny people their right to open their business anytime they wish too? And ANZAC day is just ironic hypocrisy….the State forces people to keep their businesses closed on the day we remember our war dead who fought fopr FREEDOM and against that very sort of fascist bullshit….what a spit in the vetrans faces are the ANZAC day shopping laws.
Workers have all the protection against bad bosses and condictions they need….their right to liberty.They can withold their labour and go elsewhere.Oh but now the soccons will bleat that this is unfair on the worker.But what about the rights of the owner/employer to run HIS business as HE sees fit?
December 10th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
James
I hope you will be true to your word and work Good Friday, Easter Sunday, ANZAC day and Xmas day.
On your other points I will always agree with you for the other 361.5 days of the year.
December 10th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Its not about the “right to shop” noddies….its about the natural rights to liberty and property.If a shop owner wants to open on a public holiday then thats his right.The worker,having FRREELY CHOOSEN to take up employment with that employer can either like it or lump it.The whinging from the flip floping conservatives reveals they are just blue socialists with no principles….consistent ones anyway.
December 10th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
The “right to shop” is a cover for the “want to make more money” and to suck more people away from good family time and suck their wallets dry. It’s part of the drive to have commercial control. I think it’s gone too far already.
I’m at least as un-religious as you bruv, but I can still enjoy Christmas and Easter as a great time to get together with family or get away for a break with family. I think that people who have had families growing up in particular appreciate the now limited opportunities to try and get everyone together.
Some in my family are currently trying to plan a wedding for Easter, and it hinges on whether the best man can get a day off work (Aussie owned retail chain).
Even if the shops are closed for a couple of days over Easter there are usually still plenty of opportunities to spend your money.
I really can’t understand why anyone in their right mind would join elbow to elbow shopping on Boxing Day and at Easter anyway, forget climate, the greater population is already under the spell of the covered mall. If the could package carbon credits to sell at the mall it might solve one problem, but not the spending addiction.
December 10th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
That is bollocks, no one has a right to liberty, we all have to restrict ourselves and accept restrictions to live in a semi civil society.
And a lot of the population are proven to be thick, they can’t think much for themselves, they need some protection from corporations who don’t care about corpses, only their own bottom line. It does get that bad. There are plenty of products and finance that are thrust at the brainwashed masses when the sellers know very well it is bad for the customers, the gullible are seen as easy game.
Yep, I’m not religious at all, but I can appreciate how JC felt when he said “my temple should be a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves”. That was nothing compared to know.
We could catch up with Australia, but that would mean learning to live independant of the spell the Aussie banks and retailers have over us. If we didn’t waste so much money on so much crap that isn’t good for us we would be financially a lot better off, and we would probably be a lot healthier and happier.
I’m not anti business, but I’m anti bad business, and there is far too much of it (mostly it’s not the core of commercial NZ, the small businesses).
December 10th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
We ONLY have 3.5 days a year when shops are closed. Why do we need even more shopping ? – there is no good or even possibly good reason.
Best thing would be to stop all shooping in all locations.
In europe they manage to live with only 5 or 5.5 days shopping every week – why cant we? Why do we have to have this maniac idea that shops have to be open all the time.
Its just plain dumb.
December 10th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
At least James is being party honest, he (James) is one who is telling us what the reality will be for those in the retail trade should this law ever be changed.
December 10th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
James think of these days as being days of freedom for those that work in retail. 3.5 days of liberty a year.
Also
freedom to starve is not freedom.
December 10th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
I’m not a Christian and don’t celebrate Easter, but really can we not actually do without shopping for a single day?
Have we really become that pathetic.
Surely its a good excuse to force families to actually be families and do things together instead of the kids hiding off down at the mall.
December 10th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Has DPF got shares in Westfield?
December 10th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Yep its about an individuals right to chose. Now BB you can decide not to milk the cows any day you like but of course the cows just might feel differently.
This is Catholic rule, the scourge of the National Party and NZ.
Actually it was about communities right to determine their own trading hours. Taupo can be open but up the road at Rotorua or Mt. Maunganui they can’t. You can buy petrol but you can’t buy flowers or a pot plant. You can work in a service station but not in a shop. you can work on the farm but not in a shop. you can work driving a truck but you can’t work in a shop. Now this should probably show you that the men are allowed to work as men tend to work in those businesses that do work but women are not because they tend to work in retail.
Where’s the bloody feminists when you need them????
December 10th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
Bullshit Viking. Try closing your shop in a Westfield Mall when they are open for trading? Theres no choice there.
How many owners of the big chain stores would spend Easter Sunday in Omaha or Pauanui while their shops are open.
Have you ever worked in retail? choice my arse.
Agree the current rule is unfair so the easy way to fix it is close Taupo. Problem solved.
How many people go to Rotorua for Easter and think I better pop down to the Warehouse?
December 10th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Bloody smarty pants socialists always thinking they know best how others should live their lives.
They will dress up their arrogance in all sorts of guises, e.g. “worker’s rights” (i.e. not to work – never mind the rights of those who actually want to work) and “family values” (never mind that the rest of their policy platforms actively undermine the family unit).
I happen to work in one of the “essential industries” (who defines “essential” anyway?) Fortunately I have xmas/boxing day off, but I will be working Jan 1,2,3,4 2010. I only earn money when I am working, no holiday or sick pay for me buddy.
Politicians with their generous salaries, massive leave, state subsidised super, big expense accounts, perks and free travel, would have no idea how a real worker gets by. To have them dictate when we should and shouldn’t work is insane. Only a jerk would vote for the Labour crowd.
Anderton pretends to speak for the common man, what a sick joke. He is the biggest trough snouter of them all.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:49 pm
The premise here is that whatever we did last time, it didn’t work. I partly agree here. So this means we either don’t make any changes ever again, or we find a better way. I’d like to think we’re smart enough find a better way to solve these sorts of problems so that everyone wins… rather than accepting a ‘winner creates looser’ outcome.
If a business that want to open and staff want to work then they should have that choice. Equally businesses that don’t want to open – or do but their staff elect to take the holiday – then they will close. Shopping malls can be directed to provide compatible lease terms – and most lease agreements already reference relevant legislation with catchalls for newly introduced legislation.
So why does this have to be so polarised? The risk of just stonewalling is that if/when it does eventually get through it will be sub-optimal and passed contentiously, rather than by arrangement that’s acceptable to everyone and readily agreed by everyone (save for some of my more stoic Christian friends)
December 11th, 2009 at 2:11 am
Whether a shop is open on any day is up to the owner of the shop. Whether an employee works on any given day is between the employer and the employee.
No need for government interference and regulation.
Funny thing about this is the other day BB was arguing against religious Conservatives promoting regulations that were based on their religious values.
Here’s a case where they were doing just that, and in doing do, have allowed an outcome BB is applauding, but that I disagree with.
Makes one’s head spin.
December 11th, 2009 at 2:17 am
” Surely its a good excuse to force families to actually be families ”
I agree that families should spend time together on the day they choose, but I don’t agree that “families should be forced to be families”. They should be families because they want to be.
This is just more big government socialism, and that self professed “right wingers” are saying it is a good thing is a demonstration of just how fundamentally crippled right wing thinking is in NZ.
December 11th, 2009 at 2:31 am
“That is bollocks, no one has a right to liberty, we all have to restrict ourselves and accept restrictions to live in a semi civil society.”
Speak for yourself Comrade. That you are so constantly intent on destroying other people’s right to liberty just might be the endeavour that sees you and your ilk swinging from lamp posts one day in the not too distant future. The tipping point grows ever nearer.
December 11th, 2009 at 6:50 am
Again your contradictions are glaring. Swinging someone from a lamp post would tend to destroy their liberty a bit wouldn’t it?
Your “right to liberty” philosophy seems to be modelled on Pol Pot, but maybe a bit more extreme.
December 11th, 2009 at 8:56 am
The tree of liberty must on occasions be watered with the blood of tyrants.
Your attempt above to equate those who seek individual liberty with a mass murdering collectivist totalitarian dictator is what makes you so often such an odious deceitful coward Mr. George.
December 11th, 2009 at 8:56 am
I’m with Big Bruv and (can you believe it) PG.
getstaffed
All that is fine if the worker is under no compulsion to work or agree to get the job, But in reality as BB says, That is not the case.
I suggest that we close off shopping on Saturdays rather than Sundays or High days to avoid the supporting the religious fundies.
that way we can be supporting school sport, family time and parties!
that way we get 26 shopping free days and 26 days that we can properly show that we support families and community life.
Hell why not the slogan Never on a Saturday for all our T shirts
Of Course we should make it illegal to force someone to work on their birthday shouldn’t we?
December 11th, 2009 at 8:59 am
“James
I hope you will be true to your word and work Good Friday, Easter Sunday, ANZAC day and Xmas day.
On your other points I will always agree with you for the other 361.5 days of the year.”
I work on the days rostered to me by my employer….you know…the person I CHOOSE to seek employment with on conditions that I was well aware were part of the job before I took it.If I want a certain day off I apply for it but must expect that request to be declined as has occasionaly happened.But thats the nature of my job….if I don’t like that I can leave and go else where….which is all the protection I’or anyone deserves and need.As my current roster stands I will have the 24th to the 27th off but thats the luck of the draw…many other years I have had to work Christmas and did so without complaint….
Sorry Bruv but your flipflopping on these three odd days invalidates any principle you and I may agree on the rest of the year….its at the hard edge that principles matter and you have failed to front on this issue.
Pete George: “their right to liberty.
That is bollocks, no one has a right to liberty, we all have to restrict ourselves and accept restrictions to live in a semi civil society.”
There speaks an illiterate re rights and human nature.There is no conflict between ones right to liberty and a true civil society.As every human has the exact same natural rights then one is free to do whatever one wishes until it violates the rights of the next person.There is no such right as the “right” to use force to get your way.Genuine rights don’t conflict….Go here…learn something.
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=arc_ayn_rand_man_rights
Kiki:”James think of these days as being days of freedom for those that work in retail. 3.5 days of liberty a year.
Also
freedom to starve is not freedom.”
Im talking of political freedom Kiki….meaning freedom from the use of force by other men…not freedom from reality and the law of caurse and effect that you are implying.No one is owed by others the means to sustain his existence….only the right to seek to attain those means by his own efforts.Freedom to stave …or to prosper IS freedom.
December 11th, 2009 at 9:09 am
oops
my bad.
maths poor.
that reads 52 shopping free days, Yeah!
Or how about we make it illegal to force someone to work on their religious holidays?
make it a really big fine $10,000 say or 3 months in jail.
that would show we honour each others beliefs..
or how about we make ALL religious holidays NON shopping days instead and make people work every Saturday, (that would of course include April 1st for atheists
December 11th, 2009 at 9:13 am
RedDespot, you put up a charade of seeking individual liberty and at the same time you frequently suggest mass murder, and you frequently propose what amounts to a totalitarian dictatorship. That has more than a passing similarity to Pol Pot. That is odious. Your either deliberately try to deceive others or you deceive yourself. You anonymously and cowardly hope others will do your dirty work. Or you are a joke, bit of a sick one.
December 11th, 2009 at 9:22 am
The question of just why religious holidays are being forced on everyone in a supposed secular society thats supposed to uphold the seperation of Church and State remains unanswered….
December 11th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Oh James you miss the point.
Everyone is respected!
can’t you get that?
Not just the wanker no godders who want to impose on us all their views and the Fundy Godders who feel the same but in a different way!
It’s about respect mon
December 11th, 2009 at 9:35 am
“Oh James you miss the point.
Everyone is respected!
can’t you get that?”
You don’t get real respect by waving a gun in someones face Mike.If religion really wanted respect it would stop acting like a bunch of thugs trying to ram Jesus down the throats of the rset of us.Same for any non-religious group that wanted to violate the rights of the religious to do as they wish with their time and property.Just leave others alone…is that so hard for people?
December 11th, 2009 at 9:49 am
James
Are you afraid that these nasty bible bashers will ‘get you’?
Are you that mentally weak that you cannot say ‘thanks, but I am not interested’ when they knock on your door?
I find it interesting that you (and DPF to a degree) are so passionate about this issue yet fail to see that your pursuit of this hard right ideology is actually going to force thousands of others to do something that they do not want to do.
But hey, just as long as you get what you want aye.
December 11th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
“James
Are you afraid that these nasty bible bashers will ‘get you’?
Are you that mentally weak that you cannot say ‘thanks, but I am not interested’ when they knock on your door?”
Its when they whield political power and use it to enforce their doctrines on others I have a problem.History shows that when the Church can call on the gun of the State no-one is safe.
“I find it interesting that you (and DPF to a degree) are so passionate about this issue yet fail to see that your pursuit of this hard right ideology is actually going to force thousands of others to do something that they do not want to do.”
How so? No one is being literally forced to do anything under what DPF and I advocate.No worker is forced at gunpoint to work on anyday he doesn’t choose to.Remember that a limited number of choices of is not the same thing as a lack of freedom.Whats “hard right about allowing people to work it out themselves?Sounds like civilised common sense to me…Your position looks at the worker only without a thought for the employer and what he wants.
“But hey, just as long as you get what you want aye.”
At least what I want involves no force and threat against people wanting to make their own choices….you on the other hand are quite happy for violence to be used to force your wishes on others and to hell with what they want.
December 11th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
James
I can put up with your bullshit, I can put up with your determination to force others to work 365 days a year so you can pursue your selfish shopping habits, I can put up with your hypocrisy, hell, I can even put up with you supporting something that you do not really understand.
But to accuse me of using violence to achieve my goals just shows that you have lost this argument and proves that you are an idiot of the highest order, to quote Dr Cullen, we won, you lost, eat that!
December 11th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
James (723) Says:
December 11th, 2009 at 9:22 am
The question of just why religious holidays are being forced on everyone in a supposed secular society thats supposed to uphold the seperation of Church and State remains unanswered….
I am an atheist, and I understand the issue far clearer than you. This “separation of church and state” is bullshit. It is a term lifted from the American system that does not apply in countries such as NZ where the head of state is also the head of the church of England. There is no separation there.
Now, you may say that doesn’t matter here as NZ is one of the world’s most secular nations, but it doesn’t change the constitutional facts of life?
December 12th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
DPF has a real chip on his shoulder on this matter, doesn’t he? I’m glad he lost in this case. However, left, right, conservative, liberal, whatever, isn’t it good to have a handful (3.5) of days a year where we all agree to just chill out? No pressures, implied or otherwise, no checking Blackberrys (and no need because no-one else is sending), no inconveniences where (usually younger) family members take off to work, etc etc. It’s just nice to know that the material world can pause and we are all allowed to spend some time having a bit of a real life. In these few days, it’s where our culture says “enough!” and we can all take a deep breath. So I like these genuine free days and the ideologues can go and get f**..
[DPF: As with most defenders of the status quo, you are full of ignorance. Many people do work on those days. The retail ban affects less than 10% of employees]
December 12th, 2009 at 11:49 pm
DPF said: (Sunday) is a day for drinking and the bars are all open.
Have you had your liver function checked recently?