Attempted assassination of Danish cartoonist

January 4th, 2010 at 11:54 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

Danish police said yesterday that a Somalian caught breaking into the home of a cartoonist whose work sparked riots across the Muslim world five years ago was a would-be assassin with links to al Qaeda.

The 28-year-old had an axe and a knife when he was shot and wounded by police on Saturday after cartoonist Kurt Westergaard heard windows being broken and pressed a panic alarm at his house in Aarhus.

News of the attack on Westergaard, 74, who was with his 5-year-old granddaughter at the time, shocked many in Denmark who had believed the country’s brush with Islamist extremism was consigned to the past.

I’ve been planning to blog on this for a couple of days. What is significant is that it no longer looks like some madman acting alone, but that the cartoonist was marked for death by al Qaeda or an associated group.

Hopefully this will wake up some of the appeasers. Some on the left (not all) think that the extreme Islamists will be happy if the US leaves Iraq and Afghanistan and a Palestinian State is formed. Others advocate Israel should be destroyed/moved, as no peace is possible with it there.

This attempted assassination is a good reminder that there are a significant number of extreme Islamists who want nothing less than their religion enforced on the entire world, and they will kill any who refuse to submit.

The extremists are a small sub-set of all Islamists, and an even smaller sub-set of all Muslims. But they do exist, they will (sadly) never go away, and there is no appeasing of them.

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85 Responses to “Attempted assassination of Danish cartoonist”

  1. ephemera (556 comments) says:

    @DPF

    Please don’t bring the left into this.

    [DPF: I said *some* on the left have a view. I stand by that as such views are almost absent on the right]

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  2. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    ” Please don’t bring the left into this.”

    Why the hell not?

    They’re the ones promoting it.

    For example the UK Labour Party has admitted that the basis for multiculturalism was the radical change of society.

    Frankly, I reckon it was change that was completely unnecessary. There was no problem with Western society previously and that multiculturalism has “fixed”.

    Anti-left forces need to wake up to the political motivations behind multiculturalism, stop being cowed by the fraud of political correctness, and speak out against it as another damaging social ploy the left have employed to enhance their political power and increase their vote base.

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  3. eszett (2,408 comments) says:

    My respect to the cartoonists who live under such pressure and still stand up for their values and rights.

    And I agree with DPF that appeasement will never work with extremist.

    Yet neither wars defeated Al Qaeda or the extremist. In fact, they did not have any stronghold in Iraq until after the war.
    And in Afghanistan they merely moved on to Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia.

    The fact that the US could not bring any form of stability and security to Iraq and Afghanistan after all these years is supporting Al Qaeda and the extremist more than anything else.

    Now retreat is not an option. That would be an even greater success for the extremist than anything else. But there needs to be some serious rethink of the strategy on both wars.

    Dick, George and Donald rushed into these wars with no clear exit strategy and now there is a bigger mess left to clean up.

    Some of the left may have dangerously naive views, but not nearly as much as some on the right who created this mess in the first place.

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  4. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    They have put death sentences now on novelists and cartoonists.

    The tolerance of the West, especially Europe, towards militant Muslims has been a disaster.

    The NZ softies who supported NZ entry for Ahmed Zaoui, the gatecrasher from a rather militant Algerian movement, should be ashamed of themselves. Include in this lot the pop musician who wrote the banal Welcome Home

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  5. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    ” The fact that the US could not bring any form of stability and security to Iraq and Afghanistan after all these years is supporting Al Qaeda and the extremist more than anything else.”

    Not as much as your lies and propaganda.

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  6. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Small subset?
    Daniel Pipes wrote about the 100 million through out the world that support them in Islam
    This is supporters of radical Islam!

    Sure the action men maybe numerically small but as long as they have 100million channeling funding and other resources to them this is going to keep going.

    Why do they do it?
    They want the caliphate and Sharia over all the world too!

    Also worth reading.
    http://www.danielpipes.org/7843/moderate-islam-western-ally-myth
    http://www.danielpipes.org/7770/islamism
    http://www.danielpipes.org/topics/27/radical-islam

    Do a search and read articles going back before 911 from people who do think about this issue.
    http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2001/09/not-calling-islamism-the-enemy

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  7. Chthoniid (2,047 comments) says:

    The Danes were very quick to confirm it was a terrorist attack, so I don’t think the lone-assassin theory held up for long.

    I wonder at times, how much of a hindrance the Qu’ran is. This forces a literal interpretation onto believers, but is is the view of well, an 8th C Arab dude. Adaptation to a modern world with its unforseen scientific and secular views for believers must create a lot of dissonance.

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  8. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Chthoniid (912) Says:
    January 4th, 2010 at 12:19 pm
    They ignore the dissonance and get on with living their lives meanwhile giving their alms to the jihad through their local mosque.

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  9. reid (16,447 comments) says:

    “But they do exist, they will (sadly) never go away, and there is no appeasing of them.”

    Yes that’s very true, there is no appeasing fanatic muslims (those who put their words into action), nor is there any way of appeasing committed muslims (those who make great efforts to live according to Islam and who is prepared to cross the line to fanatics if he sees his people or religion are threatened). Committed muslims are the ones who provide the funding. There is indeed no appeasing of either of these two groups.

    However there is a third category of ordinary muslims. These people are more interested in having nice lives, providing for their children and running their businesses. They are muslim because of their culture and tradition rather than because of strong religious beliefs. According to Mark Gabriel in his book Islam and the Jews – The Unfinished Battle:

    Most of the muslims in the US are ordinary muslims. Some even send their children to Christian schools. Even in the ME there are more ordinary muslims than committed muslims. It would take time and motivation to turn ordinary muslims into committed muslims.

    What rarely surfaces on this blog when this topic is discussed is an acknowledgement that the blindingly obvious best strategy to avoid a war between muslims and the west, is to reach out to this group of ordinary muslims and isolate the extremists. So far, all the west has done, is implement strategies that push them into the arms of the extremists.

    Please don’t read into the above, that I advocate the dissolution of Israel, I don’t and I never have. A two state solution is the best resolution. What I have said many times is that Israel is needlessly provocative, there is no security justification for its provocation, and the west needs to pressure it to soften its attitude. There was absolutely no hope of that during Bush when part of his base was the Christian Zionists a subset of which were the neocons. There is still absolutely no hope of that while AIPAC and the ADL retain its stranglehold on US politicians and media. The influence of all of those groups needs to be destroyed but it won’t happen. Until it does however the west and Islam will continue to descend until open warfare breaks out with terror attacks across Europe and the US and in Australia becoming a daily occurrence.

    If you haven’t read that book and you’re interested in this subject, I recommend it. The author was a former Imam and Professor of Islamic History at Al-Azhar University in Cairo who converted to Christianity and it explains in detail just why Muslims hate Jews. It’s very illuminating and what it does make very clear is that even ordinary Muslims are never going to turn around and become friendly toward Jews. So Israel has to live with it, but as I said, it doesn’t have to make the security situation worse by its aggressive provocation when there is no need for it because it thereby reduces its own security, not enhances it.

    As a side note, the cartoonist saved himself by locking himself in a panic room. He didn’t have time to get his 5-year-old granddaughter inside with him, but he left her out there because he knew she’d be alright. And she was.

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  10. eszett (2,408 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (8274) Says:
    January 4th, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    ” The fact that the US could not bring any form of stability and security to Iraq and Afghanistan after all these years is supporting Al Qaeda and the extremist more than anything else.”

    Not as much as your lies and propaganda.

    If anyone needed proof of how naive the right can be.
    Go on, red, continue sticking your head in the sand. Like you always do when anything challenges your view of the world

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  11. Alan Wilkinson (1,878 comments) says:

    “The NZ softies who supported NZ entry for Ahmed Zaoui, the gatecrasher from a rather militant Algerian movement, should be ashamed of themselves.”

    Why? Is there any evidence he and his family have been anything other than model citizens advocating religious tolerance?

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  12. tristanb (1,127 comments) says:

    The problem isn’t “multiculturalism” per se, but when the values of the cultures differ in basic morality and ethics. This includes radical Muslims, but also people like skinheads or, in NZ for example, cultures who expect to be rewarded for doing nothing.

    There’s no point bringing people into our multicultural, free society if they themselves visciously condemn other races and do not believe in “freedom” (sorry, US presidents have ruined that word). It’s like inviting a capitalist to a commune.

    There are lots of cultures who (in non-PC terms) are just backward. “White”/”European”/”Western” culture used to subjugate women and different races, had few rights for the children, the poor, the sick etc. But we’ve improved. Some cultures are getting there, but some have it written in to their “constitutions” (i.e. religious books) that things must stay backward.

    One of these books was started by a pervert. He promised all sorts of rampant sex in heaven, and made a religion that gives men full control over women and girls. Not surprisingly the poor people, who had nothing exciting in real life, would make it their mission to spread this religion, to get some of that virgin ***** in heaven. Now that particular religion is one of the world’s main religions, and because people “have to respect religions”, we have a horribly destructive, backward set of ‘morals’ that spreads like a virus.

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  13. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Alan Wilkinson posted at 12.43 in response to criticism of those who supported NZ admission for gatecrasher Ahmed Zaoui:

    Is there any evidence he and his family have been anything other than model citizens advocating religious tolerance?

    That’s no more relevant Alan than Adolf Eichmann’s peaceful post-World War 2 life in Argentina as a car-industry worker. Bet that wasn’t raised at the trial in Israel.

    Zaouai, on the run after interaction with European intelligence agencies, tore up his passport and gatecrashed into NZ illegally, while his family were living in Muslim Malaysia. On your criterion, every gatecrasher would be welcome as long as they kept their head down after arrival here.

    Zaouai should have been thrown out, and still should go back to Algeria, where I understand there is an amnesty.

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  14. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    Some on the left (not all) think that the extreme Islamists will be happy if the US leaves Iraq and Afghanistan and a Palestinian State is formed.

    You think they would be sad?

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  15. kowtow (8,454 comments) says:

    Al Jazeera reported this morning that the terrorist had previously been deported from Kenya back to Denmark where he had successfully applied for asylum.He was in Kenya to kill Mrs Clinton.Presumably this is why the Danes had him under “surveillance”.

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  16. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    And I agree with DPF that appeasement will never work with extremist.

    Yet neither wars defeated Al Qaeda or the extremist. In fact, they did not have any stronghold in Iraq until after the war.
    And in Afghanistan they merely moved on to Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia.

    The fact that the US could not bring any form of stability and security to Iraq and Afghanistan after all these years is supporting Al Qaeda and the extremist more than anything else.

    Militant extremism will never be wiped out, that is not a good reason not to go after them and make their goal as difficult as possible.

    This is the same as cops going after gangs in NZ, they will never wipe them out, but constantly going after them keeps them down. They may shut down a headquarters to see another open elsewhere, but it still has an impact. Afghanistan was one battle which the west won, not the entire war which will be fought all over the globe for some time yet.

    I believe Afghanistan as been largely successful in substantially damaging Al Qaeda, if they had been left in co-operation with the Taleban, many more horrendous acts would have occurred over the past decade. Being scattered has forced them downsize their attack strategy so instead of 911 we get Fort Hood, which if you have to compare them, is much less damaging.

    Rebuilding Afghanistan is a different mission than going after Al Qaeda and the missions must be evaluated seperately.

    Some of the left may have dangerously naive views, but not nearly as much as some on the right who created this mess in the first place.

    It was actually Al Qaeda who created this mess.

    And it is only a mess to impatient tax-payers, it took 50+ years to defeat communism and miltant islamism will suck western military resources for a similar length of time. In terms of military casualties, it has been a big success by historical standards.

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  17. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    Some on the left (not all) think that the extreme Islamists will be happy if the US leaves Iraq and Afghanistan and a Palestinian State is formed.

    You think they would be sad?

    Yes Ryan, Iraq enables Iranian and Al-Qaeda forces to stir up attacks against US military targets and to embarress the US without attracting retaliatory strikes against their own people. They don’t give a damn about the Iraq.

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  18. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    The Danish cartoonist’s plight is minor compared with the suffering of Iraqi Christians.

    http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/no-cheer-for-iraqi-christians/

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  19. Komata (1,191 comments) says:

    A point worth remembering – even for so-called ‘moderate’ muslims:

    The Koran directs quite explicitly, that every inch of land that a muslim steps-on is automatically theirs – once and for all, that said ‘inch’ is never to be surrendered to the infidel (ie any non-muslim), and that ownership of this newly-acquired ‘inch’ is to be defended to the death. In a manner similar to that of a cockroach-infestation, once muslims, (‘tame’ or otherwise) are in possession , they cannot be easily removed – as some New Zealand institutions have discoverd to their cpst. The land is theirs – by divine right – the Koran says so.

    Therefore, every time a Muslim walks /drives anywhere in NZ, the land that is traversed is automatically an extension of their ‘empire’ – a small point, but significant. .

    And, while on the subject of Islam, and empires, has anyone else wondered why a certain Mr Gaddafi was ‘visiting’ New Zealand recently? Holiday – or. . . .?

    Currently there are 63000+ Muslims in New Zealand, with the numbers being added to on a daily basis, a figure which my (very) rough calculations tell me is 0.00007% of the population. Doesn’t sound much, but as the muslim birth-rate is greater than that of teh European/Maori ‘natives’ in this country the figure is not going to decline anytime soon – especially as there is a very determined policy on the part of muslim-believers to remain apart from NZ society and NOT integrate.

    And, of course when they are pressurized to do so it (it’s what is expected n this country after all) , and asked politely to stop wearing such things as the burkah, is noticeable how they can both afford the best lawyers (this from refugees without money) and twang the heart-strings of the ‘liberals’ and touchy-feely lawyers and politicians – the Zawai case being a case in point.

    Noticably, the cause of this whole mess (and having no doubt done so with a view to her own self-agraindaisment) is of course our late, unlamented , DL, who, having opened the floodgates to Islam, covered her head in acquiescence to ‘Allah (remember the photographs?) and actively encouraged Somalis into this country (despite NO other country on the planet wanting them – at any price), is probably be laughing at all this and intent on using it for her own purposes – time will tell, although Islam dosen’t have much truck with women anyway, and for womin and men those who are ‘bent’, even less . .

    Finally. as I have said before, don’t be niave-enough to believe that we in New Zealand are not going to be targetted by Islam. The destruction of the West and the old British Empire is very much a policy of that religion – fair means or foul – it doesn’t matter, and whether by legal or illegal means is irrelevant.

    The question is, ultimately, how do we intend to fight it?

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  20. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    Yes Ryan, Iraq enables Iranian and Al-Qaeda forces to stir up attacks against US military targets and to embarress the US without attracting retaliatory strikes against their own people. They don’t give a damn about the Iraq.

    Well, yes, the withdrawal of the US from Iraq and Afghanistan would certainly put a dent in al-Qaeda’s recruitment stats.

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  21. kowtow (8,454 comments) says:

    NZ is multi racial but the term multicultural should be dropped as it is an excuse for all comers to say ,”stuff you this is my culture and as you are “multicultural” I don’t make any effort to fit in and not only that you must change your customs and laws to keep me happy”.

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  22. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    kiwireader,

    I do not agree with you that Zaoui is a terrorist. However, ignoring that for a moment, if someone behaves themselves while here (ie., breaks no New Zealand laws) and there are no warrants for their arrest in countries with whom we have extradition agreements, what do you care about them being here?

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  23. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    Well, yes, the withdrawal of the US from Iraq and Afghanistan would certainly put a dent in al-Qaeda’s recruitment stats.

    Worked a charm in 1989 and 1991 didn’t it Ryan. And yes, conservatives fucked them up, but at least some people appear to be learning.

    The best thing the West can do to dent recruitment is create a high likelyhood of being shot soon after.

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  24. Pita (373 comments) says:

    Multiculturalism; a term used to create a sense of moral, cultural and intellectual superiority amongst the liberal fraternity whilst achieving absolutely nothing

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  25. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    Worked a charm in 1989 and 1991 didn’t it Ryan. And yes, conservatives fucked them up, but at least some people appear to be learning.

    The best thing the West can do to dent recruitment is create a high likelyhood of being shot soon after.

    Perhaps some diagrams of what is highly likely to happen after you press the trigger of a suicide-bomb vest would put them off.

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  26. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    Multiculturalism; a term used to create a sense of moral, cultural and intellectual superiority amongst the liberal fraternity whilst achieving absolutely nothing

    Fixed:

    Multiculturalism; a term used to create a sense of moral, cultural and intellectual superiority amongst the liberal fraternity whilst destroying any pre-existing, successful culture of choice.

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  27. Southern Raider (1,829 comments) says:

    Reid that books bullshit. The guy who wrote it is as bad as the radical muslims as his underlying intention is to convert muslims to Christianity and then move on the Jews.

    There is nothing wrong with Islams. Jews, Christians and Muslims lived for centuries in peace and tolerance.

    I think we need to find the underlying reason for the radicals and I would suggest it is education. During the centuries of peace the Muslims produced some of the worlds best doctors, scientists and engineers.

    What do Somalia, Yemen and Afganistan all have in common? 95% plus of the population would be illiterate and so take for granted what they are read and told by the community leaders.

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  28. Southern Raider (1,829 comments) says:

    On a side note I was talking over the holidays with a kiwi that works for a charity in Africa. He said all of the countries are corrupt but the general populations are well behaved and just want a better life for themselves, bar one. He said Somalians are the worst people he has ever come across and cannot understand how the Govt continues to let them in.

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  29. reid (16,447 comments) says:

    “Reid that books bullshit. The guy who wrote it is as bad as the radical muslims as his underlying intention is to convert muslims to Christianity and then move on the Jews.”

    Clearly you haven’t read it SR because if you had you’d know he says nothing of the sort. Yes he advocates converting muslims but he says nothing about then moving on the Jews.

    So good try but no cigar.

    The book is valuable for its illumination of what Muslims think about Jews and why they think that. His suggested solution is a couple of pages at the end which has little to no bearing on the rest of it but as I said, he doesn’t even say what you said he says so…

    “Jews, Christians and Muslims lived for centuries in peace and tolerance.”

    Indeed they did SR and its interesting isn’t it that Jews live in peace in Iran and that Jews used to do so in Palestine before the Balfour Declaration. The real question is why don’t they do the same today.

    I agree with you the answer is education and that’s precisely what I was indicating in my post above when I said the obvious thing to do is to reach out to the ordinary muslims and thereby isolate the radicals. Of course its quite hard to do that when you have the State of Israel doing its level best to wind them up all the time which is an especially peculiar tactic when there is absolutely no justifiable security reason for doing what it does and every reason to think that it’s security would in fact be enhanced were it to adjust its course.

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  30. kowtow (8,454 comments) says:

    You’re wrong when you say those communities lived in peace together. Islam tolerates Christians and Jews as long as their 2nd class status is accepted and understood. Its called DHIMMI. All this is easily avalable on Jihad Watch.

    Blame Israel for the worlds troubles. That will cover the India-Pakistan issue,the trouble in South Thailand,ongoing tensions in Indonesia,disputes between the communities in Malaysia, the Beslan massacre,fundamentalism in Aceh,the murder of missionaries in Turkey, the banlieu riots in France,civil war in Algeria, massacres in Nigeria,etc etc wow those Jews are trouble makers.

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  31. reid (16,447 comments) says:

    “You’re wrong when you say those communities lived in peace together.”

    Depends where you get your information from kowtow. If you get it from Jihad Watch then it’s likely to have a certain perspective, n’est pas?

    “Blame Israel for the worlds troubles.”

    Who’s doing that? I’m merely criticising Israeli aggression on the grounds it’s counter-productive and unnecessary. Try not to make great leaps away from that simple message.

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  32. Repton (769 comments) says:

    So, DPF, clearly you disagree with “appeasers”. What action, then, do you advocate? How could the western nations improve the current situation?

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  33. kowtow (8,454 comments) says:

    reid@359pm
    I read from many sources including the Koran.Jihad Watch is an excellent one stop shop tho.
    Israel is acting in self defence.
    I’m not making the great leaps,you imply that Israel undermines education of ordinary muslims by being security conscious and seem to lay the Muslim worlds woes at her feet.

    I would suggest that national survival is far from ‘counter productive’ to the people of Israel.

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  34. CharlieBrown (1,011 comments) says:

    Reid… “Israel is needlessly provocative,”

    Yeah, and sending hundred of rockets at civilian targets on a daily basis wasn’t? The palestinian people elected a government that advocates the destruction of israel, that encourages the bombing of civilian targets, yet as soon as israel responds to any rocket attack, you and the socialist world pronounces it as provocative, or disproportionate.

    Sooner or later, if the Palestinian people do not stop this madness and live up to the fact that Israel is permanent (its too late to turn back the clock), someone in power is going to say “stuff this, we’ll wipe palestine of the map”, and to be honest, they will be justified in doing so.

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  35. kowtow (8,454 comments) says:

    What every one must be aware of is demographics ,its a numbers game and there will be only one winner. Western families cant sustain their own populations while immigrant families are large. Wilders is well aware of this and speaks out. This makes him unpopular and frighteningly puts him on the wrong side of the law.How did that happen in freedom loving Europe? Our human rights laws mean that European society as we know it is doomed.
    Even more of a worry is many EU leaders and Obama see a place for Turkey in the EU with its 70 millions.
    This is actually an age old problem and Europe has no stomach for hard facts and reality.

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  36. Alan Wilkinson (1,878 comments) says:

    So it is acknowledged Zaoui is a good educated self-supporting citizen who is no threat to New Zealanders and in fact is part of the moderate Muslim world that is the only realistic force that can solve the threat of fanatical Muslim terrorists.

    The silly and incompetent accusations that he was previously a terrorist were shown to have no foundation in repeated investigations. That he came to New Zealand as an asylum seeker rather than as a sponsored immigrant is irrelevant. New Zealand has rules and procedures for both.

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  37. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull posted at 1.58 on Zaoui:

    …If someone behaves themselves while here (ie., breaks no New Zealand laws) and there are no warrants for their arrest in countries with whom we have extradition agreements, what do you care about them being here?

    As noted before, Ryan, this is the Eichmann defence. Adolf Eichmann arrived in Argentina on false or no documentation, however, he broke no laws while working at the Mercedes Benz plant in Argentina, and Argentina had no extradition treaty with Israel, so “what do you care about him being here”?

    A very flawed moral view. Go home Zaoui!

    Alan Wilkinson’s defence of Zaoui is also weak. Zaoui was an associate of terrorist groups and an MP for a political party that engaged in terrorism. Ask the Algerian Government for the other side of the story, Alan.

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  38. Alan Wilkinson (1,878 comments) says:

    Jeez, Jack5, I wouldn’t trust the Algerian Government to bring in the newspaper.

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  39. Komata (1,191 comments) says:

    Alan W

    You wouldn’t trust the democratically-elected government of a sovereign state, BUT you would trust a self-proclaimed terrorist who used a forged passport to turn-up on our shores (funded by?), deliberately destroyed his passport then declared himself to be a ‘poor homeless refugee’ (fleeing from persecution (having carefully primed the MSM and the ‘the usual suspects’ to act as witnesses to his actions)?

    Methinks your viewpoint may be somewhat skewed.

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  40. reid (16,447 comments) says:

    “Yeah, and sending hundred of rockets at civilian targets on a daily basis wasn’t?”

    Charlie perhaps you misunderstand cause and effect here.

    Perhaps the rockets have something to do with the possibility that Israel treats Palestinians with a ruthless iron fist and just squeezes and squeezes.

    Perhaps the rockets are because the Palestinians are just evil warmongers who will never stop no matter what.

    Perhaps the rockets are because there is a faction within the Palestinians who will do that regardless of what the rest think and the reason they aren’t restrained by the rest is because there is no faction who says “enough” because the Israelis keep treating Palestinians with a ruthless iron fist and that makes the rest very angry indeed.

    Any of those are possible. My very elementary point which I’ve been making for years is that the Israelis have never tried anything except the ruthless iron fist and that maybe if they seriously did, and I mean seriously, then maybe they’d find over time a behaviour change.

    And lest you mistake me for a bleeding heart lefty, that doesn’t mean the Israelis need to compromise in any way on their security vigilance, it merely means they need to withdraw their iron fist.

    And that has never been tried in a serious way. Ever.

    If you want to penetrate to the heart of where the Israeli problem really lies, you need to understand why the person who murdered Rabin wasn’t an Arab, he was a right-wing Israeli.

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  41. kowtow (8,454 comments) says:

    The tragedy of Gaza is Israel withdrew and now it is a base for extremism.

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  42. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Alan (5.39 post): the Algerian military might not be reliable at delivering you the Hooerald, but they would be marginally less likely than Zaoui’s old croneys to toss a molotov cocktail through your window.

    I bet you wouldn’t trust your life to Zaoui’s old political party, the FIS, Algeria’s Islamic Salvation Front. Or the GIA (the Armed Islamic Group).

    The NZ SIS report says Zaoui was “linked to the GIA…and other extremist groups”…

    The NZ SIS concluded that while Zaoui was not providing weapons or other logical support to armed groups in Algeria…”some of his associates were…” The SIS also says Zaoui was described as a leading member of the GIA by persons inside the GIA “and there is other classified information to this effect…”

    Zaui’s conviction in France relates to an incident where the SIS says it is likely Zaoui both knew and companied a person who left items that could be used for bomb making, though it was not proved Zaoui knew of the items’ existence.

    Zaoui’s Belgian conviction related to being arrested with the “GIA armourer” at the Swiss border.

    The SIS report says the “Swiss authorities were also concerned that Mr Zaoui was attracting extremists to Switzerland.”

    Keith Locke and the Auckland lefties (including the Red Dominicans) who have won Zaoui the right to stay in NZ have insulted this country, IMHO.

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  43. kowtow (8,454 comments) says:

    Jack5 @622pm
    It’s ironic that the Dominicans were a lead order in the medieval inquisition but now they facilitate the old opposition.

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  44. Alan Wilkinson (1,878 comments) says:

    Jack5, the SIS report was almost entirely discredited on investigation.

    Algeria: “The country is currently a constitutional republic with a democratically elected government, though the military, in practice, remain major powerbrokers.” “The civil war resulted in more than 100,000 deaths since 1991.”

    The history of the Algerian civil war is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_Civil_War

    The military, who still control the Government, have strong motives to slander anyone who was in opposition to them and in particular were members of the prospective Government they prevented from taking office in 1991.

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  45. CharlieBrown (1,011 comments) says:

    Reid; “Perhaps the rockets are because there is a faction within the Palestinians who will do that regardless of what the rest think”

    That faction was elected by the palestinian people.

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  46. CharlieBrown (1,011 comments) says:

    Reid; “Perhaps the rockets are because there is a faction within the Palestinians who will do that regardless of what the rest think”

    That faction was elected by the palestinian people. Those elected people are based around the belief that Israel must be destroyed. But no, firing rockets and promoting the destruction of Israel “isn’t” provocation.

    Hamas are violent terrorists that wish to destroy Israel… fact. Hamas was elected by the palestinian people in 1996… fact.

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  47. CharlieBrown (1,011 comments) says:

    to correct the above post, Hamas was elected in 2006, not 1996.

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  48. Reg (539 comments) says:

    The trouble with those of us brought up in a country infused with the Christian ethos, is we think gentleness and reason will be effective in dissuading Islamic milantancy. The sad fact is these people are religiously progammed to only understand force.
    When the US went into Iraq, Libya voluntarily reliquished it’s nuclear program and handed over it’s hardware to the Americans.
    The softly-softly approach espoused by the liberals of the west is seen by the Islamist as an expression of weakness.
    A firm hand and a conviction to stand unwaveringly by the principles that made the Western World the dominant culture on the planet is the only way that the Islamists won’t prevail.

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  49. Ryan Sproull (7,137 comments) says:

    As noted before, Ryan, this is the Eichmann defence. Adolf Eichmann arrived in Argentina on false or no documentation, however, he broke no laws while working at the Mercedes Benz plant in Argentina, and Argentina had no extradition treaty with Israel, so “what do you care about him being here”?

    A very flawed moral view. Go home Zaoui!

    Alan Wilkinson’s defence of Zaoui is also weak. Zaoui was an associate of terrorist groups and an MP for a political party that engaged in terrorism. Ask the Algerian Government for the other side of the story, Alan.

    Jack5. you consider Zaoui on a par with Nazi war criminals?

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  50. CharlieBrown (1,011 comments) says:

    Reg, agree with the sentiment but not what you call the Christian Ethos. I think the ethos is more of a “social democratic” ethos rather than a Christian one, as many Christians are realistic about the situation and how force is required sometimes. I think the split between Christians who believe that a firm hand is required in international politics and those who don’t is very similar to atheists.

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  51. noskire (842 comments) says:

    Western civilization as we know it is doomed, and the tipping point is not far off. Forget global warming – that’s the least of our worries.

    1.3 billion Islamics, who hold most of the oil. What happens when the oil starts to run out? Do you think they’ll continue supply to the West, if they’re ‘moderates’ or not? Don’t think so.

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  52. noodle (151 comments) says:

    The towering leftie intellectuals who championed multiculturism are probably shitting their nappies in fear of admitting that they may have gotten the, er, Islamic thing a bit wrong. Perhaps they confused multiracialism with multiculturalism .. big difference; and it just didn’t work. So what now that the genie is well out of the bottle and Europe is basically fucked?

    No European country inspires any confidence that, even if lessons are learned, that anything resembling a spine will emerge to counter the damage and threat.

    America must stay on course and harden up. Barry, are you listening?.

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  53. CharlieBrown (1,011 comments) says:

    noodle – Not to worry, China, Russia, Japan, and to a lesser extent, the USA havn’t made the same mistakes Europe has. They aren’t so inclined to allow their country to rot from the inside out.

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  54. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Alan Wilkinson posted on Zaoui at 7.27pm

    ..the SIS report was almost entirely discredited on investigation…

    The material in my 6.22 post was from the Dr Warren Tucker’s unclassified report of 13 September 2007, the report which concluded:”…I hereby formally withdraw the security risk certificate against him (Zaoui).”

    The withdrawal seems partly to have been based on time passing; partly on changes in “approach” of Zaoui related to his later admission of his contacts with the GIA; and partly on the fact that Zaoui appears to be co-operating with the NZ SIS in “maintaining regular contact”. These were some of the reasons offered by Dr Tucker.

    The report quoted was not the earlier SIS report on which Zaoui was held in custody.

    Re Ryan Sproull’s query to me in his 7.38 post:

    Jack5. you consider Zaoui on a par with Nazi war criminals?

    My comparison was to Eichmann’s entry to Argentina using false papers, not to the comparative crimes of the SS concentration camps under Eichmann as compared with atrocities committed by both sides in the Algerian civil war.

    Ryan had suggested that since Zaoui was apparently law abiding in NZ, all should be forgiven about his crashing into the country are destroying his passport. As I said earlier, using this criterion Argentinian fascists could have argued that Eichmann should be left alone in his new law-abiding life at the Mercedes plant in Argentina.

    I have three questions for you in return Ryan:

    First, should an illegal migrant, specifically one who crashed into the country by duplicitous means, be allowed to stay on the ground that the illegal migrant has been law abiding since arrival in NZ?

    Second, if so how do you see NZ coping with an inpour of Third Worlders, some of them potential security risks?

    Third, how would allowing legal residency to the illegal migrant who gatecrashed do justice to legal immigrants who may have waited perhaps years to enter NZ, perhaps spending a small fortune on immigration consultant fees; and how would it do justice to those denied legal entry and who stay out of NZ?

    The report link:

    http://www.nzsis.govt.nz/news/news-zaoui.aspx

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  55. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Whoops in my 9.22, my link was to the SIS press release. The link to the report is at the bottom of that release however. Sorry.

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  56. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I am afraid to say this post by DPF illustrates perfectly the simplistic, infantile, even, and especially ill-considered (as in not thought through sufficiently to be worthy of serious consideration). So, a little Fisking:

    What is significant is that it no longer looks like some madman acting alone, but that the cartoonist was marked for death by al Qaeda or an associated group.

    The fact is that this cartoonist has been marked for death by any in the Islamic world who are willing to carry out such an act. And it would appear that those numbers are increasing on a daily basis, due mainly to the policies of the West that would naturally appear to many in the East as just another Crusade.

    That the cartoonist and Salman Rushdie are still alive is testimony to the facts that police actions to defend these people are highly effective, and that the overwhelming majority of Muslims are what we would term as moderate.

    One could conclude that they must hope for their own reformation as much as the medieval Christian moderates must have wished for theirs.

    Islam prohibits depiction of Mohammed. As much as I dispute the scientific truth of the teachings of both religions, I avoid gratuitous insults.

    And I take special care with Islam – it’s just the way it is.

    And I would caution any Al Qaeda “link” may be just a product of the failed assassin’s fantasies. Either way, we know Al Qaeda are not happy with us and are international criminals. We don’t need any more justification to go after them than 9/11. Which brings me to my next Fisking points:

    Hopefully this will wake up some of the appeasers. Some on the left (not all) think that the extreme Islamists will be happy if the US leaves Iraq and Afghanistan and a Palestinian State is formed. Others advocate Israel should be destroyed/moved, as no peace is possible with it there.

    DPF here introduces a lot of noise into a simple criminal act. The use of the word “appeasers” is simply an appeal to emotion and a deliberate insult to those who suggest alternatives to invading sovereign nations and killing at least tens of thousands of innocent people.

    The points of advocating that the US leaves Iraq and Afghanistan and uses its influence over Israel to ensure a viable Palestinian nation forms is:

    1. Neither the Iraq nor Afghanistan wars were justified and the people of those countries are suffering grievously as a result of the injustice of savage and unprovoked invasions. That is not to say that the so-called governments of those countries did not deserve to be overthrown, they did, but it was simply evil to launch wholesale war on the civilians of those countries.

    2. Palestinians are victims of a gross injustice. The simple fact is that indigenous people the world over have regained their sovereignty except where they are reduced to a minority (as in NZ) or virtually annihilated (as in the US, Australia), and it is inevitable that this will be the end result in historic Palestine. A good intermediate step would be forming a Palestinian state on approximately the June 4 armistice line. To refuse to do so on the basis of “security” for Israel is as risible as Tony Blair’s claim that Saddam could destroy Britain in 48 mins. The people with the genuine security need are, and always have been since even before 1948, Palestinians.

    3. To cut off the oxygen to the recruitment of mainly young and foolishly idealistic Muslim men to extremist groups.

    DPF concludes:

    The extremists are a small sub-set of all Islamists, and an even smaller sub-set of all Muslims. But they do exist, they will (sadly) never go away, and there is no appeasing of them.

    Here I am with Repton 4.22pm. I would like to know what DPF thinks is the solution to the current mess.

    Definitely no appeasement! But then what?

    More war? Nukes on every Muslim nation? Do a King Herod and kill all new born Muslim sons? (NB I am being facetious here – it is holiday time).

    Come on DPF: can you do constructive or are you just happy as a pig in shit with destructive.

    At least Fisk offers an answer of sorts, a first step: get our armies out of Muslim lands. As Garth George would say, simple, really.

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  57. noskire (842 comments) says:

    Yes, nuke ‘em. I can send you a link to the Daniel Berg beheading if you need more convincing.

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  58. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Hmmm you sure you don’t mean Daniel Pearl?

    And on that basis you want to kill 1.3 billion humans?

    And I bet you are against abortion too!

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  59. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Luc:

    In the longer term, the West may be able to just sit back and let the world’s two most populous countries, China and India, contain Muslim extremism. Both are fighting Muslims already, and both have the big numbers of foot soldiers to contain Muslim extremism.

    In the medium term, the West could by giving favourable tax breaks to electric vehicles and taxing oil, hasten the day when demand for oil declines. Remember that once the world thought it couldn’t do without whaling to provide oil for machinery. Low oil prices and easing demand would starve Muslim extremists of their financial lifeblood.

    Twp decades ago, no-one thought communism was going to collapse. Islam’s real clash is with modernity, not with the West, as has been pointed out by other posters. Islam will either reform, as Christianity has a number of times, or wither away to a small remnant, as Zoroastrianism did.

    But Luc what is this garbage about indigenous people when discussing the Palestine issue? The Jews are just as indigenous as the Palestinians. The indigenous-priority argument is a dead-end street. It would lead to nonsense such as the Basques trying to claim Britain or the Ainu taking over Japan. White people are indigenous to Africa, if some anthropologists are to be believed. Does that justify nineteenth century colonialism in Africa?

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  60. CharlieBrown (1,011 comments) says:

    “Islam will either reform, as Christianity has a number of times, or wither away to a small remnant, as Zoroastrianism did.”

    Kinda reminds me of a joke I heard, its a little offensive so don’t read from here on if you are inclined to get offended…

    Why aren’t there any muslims on Star Trek?

    Star Trek is set in the future!

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  61. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Jack

    Extremists are everywhere. Roger Douglas, such a mild mannered gentleman but an extremist, nonetheless. It’s just such an easy label to throw around. China and India are both not so much fighting Muslim extremism as suppressing Muslims for idealogical and political reasons. You need to look into the background more. For India, I suggest reading Arundhati Roy’s political articles and books as a starter – and her fiction is pretty good too! China is just enforcing a colonialist enterprise and I fear the Uighers are doomed to eternal oppression.

    But that is not the case in Palestine. If you go for the reductio ad absurdum argument then there is certainly no such thing as colonialism as we are all from out of Africa, anyway, 100,000 or so years ago. But that’s absurd, surely.

    Except for religious extremists, Palestinians are recognised as the indigenous people of Palestine and can trace their ancestry and continuous habitation of the land from well before the Romans – some say to 7000 years ago.

    Their rights as Palestine’s indigenous people is well recognised in international law. One day, they will be reintegrated into historic Palestine and be the recipients of massive compensation, as our Maori are. The sooner this happens, the better for all, in my view.

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  62. Hurf Durf (2,860 comments) says:

    List of people and organisations Luc Hansen has compared to Islamists:

    The French Resistance
    Roger Douglas

    Come back tomorrow for the next thrilling installment!

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  63. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    And Hurf Durf ;-)

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  64. Robert Black (423 comments) says:

    The only good Muslim is…

    Well, no, let us say, a better Muslim is a DIS-ARMED Muslim.

    Does not have the ability to murder innocent people.

    Take all the arms off of them…problem solved.

    Now, did I say literally?

    No I didn’t.

    :)

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  65. ephemera (556 comments) says:

    @DPF

    “I stand by that as such views are almost absent on the right”

    I don’t disagree, but shoehorning such an argument into such a short post about a Somalian nutter attempting to kill a Danish cartoonist stinks of petty politiking.

    If you look at similar recent cases in Europe – the murder of The Theo Van Gogh in Holland; the firebombing of Martin Rynja’s house in London – they have nothing to do with the geopolitcal stance of the respective countries, and everything to do with radical islam attempting to stifle free speech.

    The old ‘society made me do it’ defence has no traction, whatever your political stripe.

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  66. Dave Mann (1,218 comments) says:

    This whole incident is, to my mind, indicative of the problem that Europe faces with Islam. The cowardly cartoonist, instead of being prepared to fight (by being armed and ready) chose instead to flee into a panic room. What is even worse is that this spindless turd abandoned his 5 year old granddaughter in the process! This is 21st century Europe.

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  67. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Lucy’s 11.57 post on Palestinians as indegenous people:

    …One day, they will be reintegrated into historic Palestine and be the recipients of massive compensation, as our Maori are…

    Two differences:

    1. The Jews are just as indigenous as the Palestinians. Compensation from them would be like asking a certain North Island tribe to compensate Ngai Tahu for Te Rauparaha’s raids against them. Not a chance.

    2. Israelis are not as soft as pakeha, who will be paying settlement-blackmail to Maori tribes for another century or so until Maori are completely absorbed into other NZers, as the Aztecs were absorbed into Mexico.

    As for comparing Roger Douglas with Muslim extremists, such as Al Qaeda, Lucy is nuts.

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  68. John B (27 comments) says:

    Oh come on Dave! The dudes in his 70s and he draws funny pictures for a living. Probabley not the Rambo type. Still ,he’s done more to fight for free speech than anyone posting here…

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  69. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Mr. Mann is right. The west has adopted a weak and cowardly posture that encourages these kind of acts.

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  70. Dave Mann (1,218 comments) says:

    Well, John B, this ‘dude’ has been threatened before (many times I think) by Islamic extremists and the correct course of action when being threatened by fanatical scum is to arm yourself to the teeth – or at least employ armed bodyguards to defend you. And don’t lets argue about ‘cost’ here. There should be plenty of organisations willing to supply protection for this bloke.

    The incorrect course of action is to skuttle off into a ‘panic’ room (the name says it all doesn’t it?) and callously abandon your 5-year-old granddaughter when danger threatens!

    If I was the parent of this poor helpless child, I wouldn’t let her be minded by my father ever again, frankly.

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  71. John B (27 comments) says:

    We weren’t there so we don’t really know all the details but as the girl was unharmed if he made a split decision it seems to have been the right one.

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  72. Brian Smaller (4,023 comments) says:

    Thank God Obama has started racially/nationality profilling people visiting the US from mostly Muslim countries. Of course, I await with bated breath to hear all the Obamaphiles decrying his overt racism.

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  73. malcolm (1,952 comments) says:

    What is even worse is that this spindless turd abandoned his 5 year old granddaughter in the process!

    Where did you get that from?

    He told his employer, the Jyllands-Posten daily, that he had locked himself and the child in a bathroom as the assailant shouted “revenge” and “blood” and tried to smash his way into the house.

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  74. Dave Mann (1,218 comments) says:

    malcolm, I got it from here:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/04/danish-cartoonist-axe-attack

    There are other reports (thousands of them probably) on the news sites…. but as far as I can remember, this was the report I first saw.

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  75. malcolm (1,952 comments) says:

    OK, there are conflicting stories:

    Police Chief Superintendent Ole Madsen told CNN that the pair hid in a panic room inside the house

    I wouldn’t slander the old chap. We weren’t there and he made whatever decisions he made with the info he had and it seemed to work out OK for the granddaughter so perhaps he knew what he was doing.

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  76. Dave Mann (1,218 comments) says:

    One of the stories I read (sorry, can’t find the link) quoted him as describing how he actually decided to save himself and abandon the child on the rationale that it was him the guy was after not necessarily his grandchild. Not good enough.

    I’m an ‘old chap’ myself – although not quite as old as this cartoonist – but if I had pissed off a good proportion of the 1.2 billion people who make up the world’s most violent and obsessive religion, I would certainly be taking more active measures to ensure my safety than hiding in a locked bathroom.

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  77. John B (27 comments) says:

    Those who are trully cowardly are Western crtics who say he shouldn’t have ‘insulted Islam’. They are defending fanatics who are monstrously arrogant – forbidding anyone even in another non-muslim country from making fun of their beliefs. They are in fact saying ‘our religion’s dogmatic repressive nature extends to controling what you think of it’. In some ways 9-11, Iraq and Afghanistan are just sideshows – this is the real guts of the matter. A clash of values.If you want a open, pluralistic society then you MUST oppose fundamentalist Islam.

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  78. Dave Mann (1,218 comments) says:

    While I stand by my criticism of the cartoonist fleeing, I agree with your 12.44pm comment, John B. Point well made.

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  79. joe90 (273 comments) says:

    Who asked for Ireland’s blasphemy law?

    New rules which forbid causing ‘outrage’ among religious people have baffled Ireland. We were getting along just fine without them

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  80. Southern Raider (1,829 comments) says:

    Thanks Luc for clearing up the history.

    All this time I thought King Saul, King David, King Solomon and King Herod etc were Jews when in fact it looks like they were actually Palestinians.

    Also good to know the Romans obviously weren’t too smart when they named the area Judea after the local Jewish population when it should have been named after the Palestinians.

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  81. workingman (79 comments) says:

    reid (3664) Says:
    January 4th, 2010 at 6:13 pm

    And that has never been tried in a serious way. Ever.

    I would say that Israel handing over Gaza was a quiet serious attempt at progressing the issue. After Gaza was then used as a launching base for missiles, I would imagine it will be some time until Israel repeats the mistake of handing over land again.

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  82. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Just some short replies to my posts in case anyone comes back for a gander…

    Jack5

    Your first point is contentious, to say the least, which is why I pointed to the international consensus, eg the UN, that Palestinians are the indigenous people of the land. Perhaps you should read, at a minimum, Shlomo Sand’s book, ” How and Why the Jewish People were Invented.”

    Your second point ignores my point: that Palestinians have not been swamped or annihilated – and most certainly not defeated – and they will regain their land. What you say about Israelis not being “soft” would once have been said about the white South Africans, too, not so long ago.

    And finally, my point of labeling Roger Douglas an extremist was to illustrate how easy it is to throw that label around: he is an economic extremist, like Don Brash. JK won’t entertain the idea of him in his cabinet. But think about the other examples: the Uighers are fighting to regain their independence. The fact they are Muslims is irrelevant. Tibetans have the same cause, and they are Buddhists. You have to look at all the facts, not just the soundbites.

    John B

    I just think gratuitously insulting another religion is not productive. Call it PC if you will.

    Southern Raider

    You mix myth and fact. eg King Herod is reputed to be an Arab Jew. Israeli archaeologist Israel Finkelstein says the other three names you mention are largely mythical. He also says the original Jews were Arabs. Go and argue with him.

    Workingman

    Sharon realised that Gaza was a lost cause and preferred to concentrate on installing more settlements in the West Bank. Although Israel withdrew its troops on the ground, Gaza remained officially occupied territory. After Hamas won the 2006 election, Israel and the West deliberately destroyed the national unity government it formed with Fatah. So Hamas withdrew to Gaza (after defeating the US Israel trained Dayton Fatah forces) whereupon Israel instituted the modern version of a medieval siege. Hence the rockets.

    I pity the Gazans, caught between a rock (Israel) and a hard place (Hamas).

    Now I repeat my main criticism of posters in this thread: given your fears and insecurities and ill-informed prejudices, how would you like to see the “Islam problem” addressed? Especially given also DPF’s admission that the extremists we are talking about are such a small proportion of the Muslim community.

    I suggest allowing Muslim nations the freedom to develop at their own pace, while maintaining a strong defence of our values in our land. And that intelligence and international police action is the best way of dealing with terrorism, not carelessly invading foreign nations and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people.

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  83. Dazzaman (1,140 comments) says:

    Why? Is there any evidence he and his family have been anything other than model citizens advocating religious tolerance?

    Ahmed is in Palmy with a new woman (Kiwi white woman convert). I haven’t seen hide nor hair of his wife, unless she’s become the second one looking after the kids & house?

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  84. kiwiblack (1 comment) says:

    What a lot of ignorance is posted on this site. Moslems lived peacefully, side by side with Christians and Jews for centuries. They only attacked soldiers, not civilians. And since Israel came into being, Jewish terrorists have attacked Palestinian homes, people, women, children, elderly, olive groves, cattle, everything. And the Palestinians are NOT all Moslem. Many are Christian.

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