Good integration in NZ

January 9th, 2010 at 11:54 am by David Farrar

Muslim integration in Europe has been pretty much a disaster in many countries, but in we are doing well:

Muslim teenagers in New Zealand adapt well to life in New Zealand, a Victoria University study has found.

The study, carried out on 180 Muslim teens, by the Centre for Applied Cross-Cultural Research, measured their psychological and social well-being by examining life satisfaction, psychological conditions, school adjustment and behavioural issues, Professor Colleen Ward said.

The study, carried out as part of a 13-country survey of well-being and identity, drew on data from previous studies carried out in New Zealand, on other groups of teens, as comparison.

The findings revealed Muslim youth demonstrated more positive outcomes on all indicators than their Maori and Pakeha peers, Prof Ward said.

The combination of strong family support, religion and New Zealand’s relatively tolerant atmosphere helped the Muslim 13- to 19-year-olds keep well, she said.

Though the students identified themselves as New Zealanders and the ethnic group they were from, their strongest identification was with being a Muslim, the researchers found. …

The cultural environment of New Zealand allowed people to integrate, keeping their culture and ethnic groups, rather than assimilating them and forcing them to abandon the culture they came from, as in some other countries, she said.

I’m not sure what other countries they are talking about, but in most of Europe the problem hasn’t been assimilation, but an unwillingness to integrate at all. However in the US, they are much better with integration.

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108 Responses to “Good integration in NZ”

  1. big bruv (13,237 comments) says:

    It might be a tad early to be counting those chickens DPF.

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  2. Jack5 (4,571 comments) says:

    “Integration” versus “assimilation”? Sounds like PC hogwash.

    America assimilates its migrants. They identify as Americans first, hold their hands over their hearts at school and pledge alliance to the flag.

    If Muslim NZ citizens are identifying as Muslims before they identify as New Zealanders that is bad news, regardless of how the lefty-multiculturalists paint it.

    It is from UK citizens who identify as Muslims before they identify as British citizens come recruits for Al Qaeda and threats to disrupt official welcome-homes for British soldiers.

    The biggest threat non-assimilating Muslims provide is provoking a resurgence of the extreme right, as in the BNP.

    The leftist multiculturalists in NZ and other Western countries are sowing dragons’ teeth.

    [DPF: You obviously do not know the difference between integrate and assimilate and also seem to know little about ethnic communities in the US - who most definitely are not assimiliated - they are integrated]

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  3. andrei (2,499 comments) says:

    The findings revealed Muslim youth demonstrated more positive outcomes on all indicators than their Maori and Pakeha peers, Prof Ward said.

    The combination of strong family support, religion and New Zealand’s relatively tolerant atmosphere helped the Muslim 13- to 19-year-olds keep well, she said.

    Which does beg the question of why the multi culti do not see the virtue of Christian family values and religion which are the heritage of the majority and have never endorsed honor killings and the like to maintain them.

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  4. starboard (2,471 comments) says:

    a bad move letting them in here…yeah yeah not all are bad before you climb up my ass….but just take a look at England.

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  5. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    Go and read/view this posting, and see if you still think we’re doing well. Summary:

    30-Minute Version of the New Documentary Film. The Third Jihad exposes the war the media is not telling you about. It reveals the enemy most western governments are too afraid to name.

    Dr. Zuhdi Jasser is a Muslim American and former physician to the US Congress. After the FBI releases a radical Islamist manifesto describing how to destroy America from within, Dr. Jasser decides to investigate. The Third Jihad is about what he discovered.

    I realise that it depicts USA, rather than NZ. But I’m interested in whether Muslim organisations in NZ denounce Hamas and Hizbollah?

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  6. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Though the students identified themselves as New Zealanders and the ethnic group they were from, their strongest identification was with being a Muslim, the researchers found. …

    As both Big Bruv (12:00 pm) and Jack5 (12:04 pm) point out:
    The fact they identify themselves first and foremost as Muslims should start to sound the warning bells – and we may indeed be counting our chickens a little early.

    I’ve said this before; Islam basically ‘keeps its head down’ until it reaches adequate numbers to force its hand upon the host nation – Islamic critaical mass I like to call it. Islam aims to turn the world into an Islamic caliphate with all that entails – Sharia law for a start.

    In the end, without resistance, it will be Islam that assimilates the West.
    And as we know, this is well underway in Europe, England, etc. Even Australia has had its issues in this regard.

    I recall a quote from somewhere:

    The Arabs (Muslims) are either at your feet, or at your throat.

    We need to watch out for when they start to show signs of moving up our torso – from our ‘feet’ to our ‘throat’.

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  7. starboard (2,471 comments) says:

    you are either with them or against them..thats the way they see things…just ask one.

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  8. vibenna (305 comments) says:

    Sorry starboard – point of clarification. Are you talking about Muslims or Republicans?

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  9. Pete George (22,784 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  10. Pete George (22,784 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  11. Jack5 (4,571 comments) says:

    Pete George posted at 12.42:

    …Are we more at risk if we welcome different cultures and show them what it is like to live successfully in a tolerant multicultural country?

    Isn’t that what Britain, did Pete? Welcomed in the extremist Muslim preachers, thinking they would absorb democratic leanings by osmosis?

    Didn’t work.

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  12. Jack5 (4,571 comments) says:

    Pete George posted at 12.45:

    …Do you denounce all non-Muslim organisations that inflict terror and death on others?

    I’ve heard Catholic and Protestant Northern Irish people in NZ denouncing the violent extremists from their own denominations. They seem more than happy to adopt NZ tolerant views.

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  13. starboard (2,471 comments) says:

    Isn’t it good that there is good integration and relatively few problems here?

    …you sort of view everything with chocolate coatings PG…. take a look around the world…Muslim=trouble.

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  14. noskire (831 comments) says:

    Muslim teenagers these days…they blow up so fast.

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  15. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    Do you denounce all non-Muslim organisations that inflict terror and death on others?

    All organisations that target innocent civilians, yes. Irrespective of their motivation. Do you, PG?

    This looks like another issue where DPF has got it wrong, based on the experience in the rest of the West.

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  16. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    And there is a very simple way to test the integration and tolerance of NZ muslims: print the Mohammed cartoons in a daily newspaper!

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  17. winston smith (45 comments) says:

    And there is a very simple way to test the integration and tolerance of NZ muslims: print the Mohammed cartoons in a daily newspaper!

    Heard of the Dominion Post? As far as I know, they didn’t get bombed as a result of publishing them.
    (Nor did The Free Radical, but that’s probably not on the radar of kiwi Muslims)

    If Muslim NZ citizens are identifying as Muslims before they identify as New Zealanders that is bad news, regardless of how the lefty-multiculturalists paint it.

    Well I identify as a member of my faith over and above my identity as a Kiwi. So?

    As for Muslims, how many incidents of Muslim violence in NZ can you think of?

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  18. winston smith (45 comments) says:

    take a look around the world…Muslim=trouble.

    You might well talk to someone in the Middle East about this, and hear them rant about Iraq, Afghanistan and the Palestine areas, as well as the Abu Gharib and Guantanamo human rights injustices of the US and other allies. “Muslim trouble” doesn’t come from nowhere, even if the responses aren’t justifed.

    (Yes, it comes from the extreme factions in their religions as well, but almost every religion and ideology has some form of this.)

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  19. winston smith (45 comments) says:

    I’ve heard Catholic and Protestant Northern Irish people in NZ denouncing the violent extremists from their own denominations

    I’ve seen two different Muslim groups (one at Auckland University, one putting up a billboard near the mosque on Stoddard Road) denouncing Al-Qaeda and extremism.
    Does that mean that – as a Protestant – I have to make sure I denounce the “God hates fags” people (and Graham Capill, and so on) or else?

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  20. Sean (299 comments) says:

    All Muslims are not members of al Qaeda, but all members of al Qaeda are Muslims, and any Muslim might be a member of al Qaeda.

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  21. Viking2 (11,126 comments) says:

    his just in from Aussie!

    TOUGH TIMES AHEAD

    This morning, from a cave somewhere in Pakistan , Taliban Minister of Emigration, Mohammed Omar warned Australia that if military action against Iraq & Afghanistan continues, Taliban authorities will cut off Australia’s supply of Convenience Store managers.

    If this action does not yield sufficient results, Cab Drivers will be next.
    Followed by:-
    Telstra Customer Service Reps,
    Dole Office Workers
    Telemarketers
    And finally ….Queensland Doctors.

    THIS IS GETTING UGLY, FOLKS!!!!!!

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  22. John B (27 comments) says:

    Here’s a true story. My brother used to work security at a major department store. One day he caught a couple of Somali youth shop lifting. When having them empty their bags out, out came two copies of the Quran. They had just come from the Mosque. So what I hear you say I’m sure a few sunday school christian kids shop lift too. But what was interesting is the manner in which they defended their actions. My brother and the store were ‘Zionists’ and therefore legitimate targets for theft according to theses kids. WTF are they teaching them in these Mosques?We may not have a problem now but in the future?…

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  23. Jack5 (4,571 comments) says:

    DPF replied to my 12.04 post:

    …DPF: You obviously do not know the difference between integrate and assimilate and also seem to know little about ethnic communities in the US – who most definitely are not assimiliated – they are integrated.

    The distinction between the terms integrate and assimilate may not be as clear as you assume, DPF. EG

    http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/learning-the-language/2008/08/immigrant_integration.html

    Agreed there are ethnic communities in America, some of very long standing, like the Navajo and more recent, like Cantonese. But America has long seen itself as “the melting pot”, which is surely an assimilation policy. The use of patriotism in American schools is part of this. English remains the key teaching language. Prime loyalty is taught to be to the US.

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  24. Murray (8,838 comments) says:

    Frankly I’m less than entirely excited. With “Death to all Jews” painted on a bridge at Massey their “intergration” may better than other countries but it doesn’t meet my level of requirement thanks.

    Unless you mean intergration into the John Minto class of raving bloody loony hippie freak club, in which case well done, spot on.

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  25. dime (9,399 comments) says:

    they are probably integrating better here because there isnt that many of them.

    go hang out in western sydney for a while. they have issues.

    you will hear the words “fuckin dumb aussies” many times. (i used to reply to the muslims that worked for me “if aussies are so dumb, how come this place is still a paradise and your home country is a bombed out shit hole”. that went down well :) )

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  26. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    John B 2:41 pm,

    Here’s a true story. My brother used to work security at a major department store. One day he caught a couple of Somali youth shop lifting. When having them empty their bags out, out came two copies of the Quran. They had just come from the Mosque. So what I hear you say I’m sure a few sunday school christian kids shop lift too. But what was interesting is the manner in which they defended their actions. My brother and the store were ‘Zionists’ and therefore legitimate targets for theft according to theses kids. WTF are they teaching them in these Mosques?We may not have a problem now but in the future?…

    You raise an important point, John.
    In Muslim eyes all non Muslims (read that infidels) are fair game – whether it be theft, lying/dishonesty, rape, murder, etc. For example; did you know that most rapes perpetrated in European countries by Muslims is primarily against non Muslim women? They view us as ripe for the picking, and any ‘morality’ they may have is extended towards fellow Muslims only.

    Another example is that of Islamic ‘peace’ – peace is only extended to those who are Muslim; it is basically war against all non Muslims (infidels). Remember that their god, Allah, is the moon god as well as the god of war.

    And what “they [are] teaching them in these Mosques” is to hate the West and Israel, and to regard us as little more than animals. Of course Mohammed is their prime example of how to live, and one needs only to make a study of his life to get a good insight into how the average Muslim’s mind works.

    That our politicians have no idea, or at least pretend they don’t, means that we are likely to follow down the same road as other Western nations where their politicians have allowed uncontrolled Muslim immigration – a problematic future indeed.

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  27. starboard (2,471 comments) says:

    Does that mean that – as a Protestant – I have to make sure I denounce the “God hates fags” people (and Graham Capill, and so on) or else?

    ..Fags dont run around blowing up themselves and innocent people

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  28. starboard (2,471 comments) says:

    That our politicians have no idea, or at least pretend they don’t, means that we are likely to follow down the same road as other Western nations where their politicians have allowed uncontrolled Muslim immigration

    …and thats when we Kiwis need to get off our apathetic arses and ensure it doesnt happen.

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  29. Reg (544 comments) says:

    Perhaps St Matthews-in-the-City could test the the intergration/assimilation/tolerance of our Muslim community by putting up a bill board insulting Mohammed?

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  30. Elijah Lineberry (306 comments) says:

    An amusing post.

    If you care to read it again you find a number of ironic (and unintended?) things common to virtually all left wing intellectuals…

    1. Taxpayer dollars are being spent on a ‘Centre For Applied Cross Cultural Research”
    2. The people working there are racists
    3. Oh yes they are – they single out ‘Muslims’, refer to White people by the racially abusive ‘Pakeha’ term, single out Maoris
    4. They seem surprised the teenagers considered themselves “New Zealanders” and required prompting from Prof Ward to get into the singled out/stereotype mode of thinking
    5. Islam is a religion, not a ‘Culture’

    All in all I would say Prof Ward and her cohorts were deeply disappointed there are not vast numbers of people engaging in ‘victimhood’ who require special rights and privileges and marches on Parliament and politically correct legislation.

    I suspect this differs from what was intended by this research as left wing intellectuals are always astonished to learn various groups of people are simply getting on with life and are not inferior beings requiring protection from their ‘betters’.

    http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com

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  31. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Starboard 3:26 pm,

    That our politicians have no idea, or at least pretend they don’t, means that we are likely to follow down the same road as other Western nations where their politicians have allowed uncontrolled Muslim immigration

    …and thats when we Kiwis need to get off our apathetic arses and ensure it doesnt happen.

    I agree.
    Maybe we could have another referendum on THIS issue?
    Trouble is, even if we got 87%, like with the anti smacking referendum, I doubt Shonkey would take any action in that case either.

    There has got to be a better way than just ‘voting them out’ every three years.
    We really do need BINDING referendums in this country, and the inability to so easily remove GOOD laws from the statute books.

    Any other ideas?

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  32. Whafe (652 comments) says:

    I have to say it:

    Muslims are the greatest problem the world has at present!

    Just being honest, the momentum they are gaining globally is down right scary….. What will the Muslim population be in Europe alone come 2020??????????

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  33. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    Yes, it comes from the extreme factions in their religions as well, but almost every religion and ideology has some form of this

    How many Christian military doctors have gunned down their fellow soldiers in the US army prior to leaving the US to serve overseas?
    How many Christian mothers teach their children to play with AK47s and dress up with C4 belts and detonators?
    How many Jewish or Christian or Hindu or Bhuddist or any other non-muslim young men are going on suicide missions with car- or truck-loads of explosives?

    It is unique to radical Islam.

    They seek to use the freedoms of Western countries to invade by stealth (ie population increase) and then demand more and more rights, including sharia law.

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  34. dad4justice (7,740 comments) says:

    Speaking of “sharia law” – when does the motherland – the good old UK – become a state of Islam?
    Sorry you can’t answer that question billy borker. Haha.
    ALERT – RED ATTACK looming SIR.

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  35. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    Frankly I’m less than entirely excited. With “Death to all Jews” painted on a bridge at Massey their “intergration” may better than other countries but it doesn’t meet my level of requirement thanks.

    Murray, what’s the evidence that this was painted by Muslim Kiwis and not the National Front?

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  36. starboard (2,471 comments) says:

    There has got to be a better way than just ‘voting them out’ every three years.
    We really do need BINDING referendums in this country, and the inability to so easily remove GOOD laws from the statute books.

    Any other ideas?

    3 million kiwis marching in the street DEMANDING would open JK’s eyes and ears…ignore at his/their peril..

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  37. BlueDevil (92 comments) says:

    ..Fags dont run around blowing up themselves and innocent people

    70 virgins isn’t an incentive!

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  38. Komata (1,109 comments) says:

    There are NO ‘moderate’ muslims – only ‘sleeping’ ones – they are merely waiting their time until their numbers are sufficient to make an impact – their birth-rate rising while all others are falling. They are of course aided and abetted by the civil libertarians, duplicious lawyers and the usual vocal socialst supporters – the sort of hand-wringing westerners that islam has conned into being their servants in Europe, and with 63,000-plus adherants in NZ, (2000 of these being maori), and an aggressive evangalism campaign in the prisons, to quote the old song, ‘We aint seen nothing yet’.

    To parody the old saw: ‘While the government sleeps, New Zealand burns . . . ‘

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  39. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    There are NO ‘moderate’ muslims – only ’sleeping’ ones – they are merely waiting their time until their numbers are sufficient to make an impact – their birth-rate rising while all others are falling. They are of course aided and abetted by the civil libertarians, duplicious lawyers and the usual vocal socialst supporters – the sort of hand-wringing westerners that islam has conned into being their servants in Europe, and with 63,000-plus adherants in NZ

    Oh my God! Could things be any worse?!

    (2000 of these being maori)

    AAAARGH!

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  40. noodle (151 comments) says:

    Academic data and conclusions in these areas do not impress me at all. Results always seem geared towards an intellectual bias far removed from on the ground reality. They succeed when most sheeples consider TV news as daily gospel and consider themselves informed if they read the local newspaper.

    If you want to see cultural collision, bring an Invercargill local up to Ak. and drop him in MT. Roskill. If he was a curious and thoughtful guy, he’d probably get the next flight home.
    Shame he wasn’t there on 9/11 to see the neighbours fly balloons and roast goats in celebration of the event.
    I was.

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  41. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Noodle 7:39 pm,

    If you want to see cultural collision, bring an Invercargill local up to Ak. and drop him in MT. Roskill. If he was a curious and thoughtful guy, he’d probably get the next flight home.
    Shame he wasn’t there on 9/11 to see the neighbours fly balloons and roast goats in celebration of the event.
    I was.

    Obviously just your average garden variety ‘moderate’ Muslim – imagine how they would have celebrated if they were the radical variety.

    Not friends of yours by any chance, Ryan?

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  42. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    Obviously just yor average garden variety ‘moderate’ Muslim – imagine how they would have celebrated if they were the radical variety.

    Not friends of yours by any chance, Ryan?

    What, me friends with a theist? Sounds like one of yours.

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  43. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Not all theists are equal, Ryan, you know that.

    From your 7:36 pm comment I assumed your sympathies lay in that direction.
    When you go to sleep at night do you make sure you point towards Mecca?

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  44. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    I should probably make clear for silly people that I am friends with a great many theists.

    Kris, could you explain why you felt inclined to personally mention me in relation to someone celebrating mass murder?

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  45. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    Kris,

    My 7.36pm comment was in reply to a statement so incredibly absurd that I actually had to search through Kiwiblog for the author’s previous posts to make sure I was not about to foolishly treat satire as a genuine expression of paranoia.

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  46. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    I happen to share Noodle’s concern – what you call ‘paranoia’ – the fact that you seem to think Muslims in NZ celebrating the destruction brought about by other Muslims in the 911 disaster is ok led me to believe that perhaps you were friends with such individuals.

    Glad to know that you’re not paranoid, though Ryan – head in the sand maybe, but not paranoid.

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  47. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    I happen to share Noodle’s concern – what you call ‘paranoia’ – the fact that you seem to think Muslims in NZ celebrating the destruction brought about by other Muslims in the 911 disaster is ok led me to believe that perhaps you were friends with such individuals.

    Perhaps you could point out where I said that such celebrations are okay? Or you could apologise for suggesting that I do. You pick.

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  48. Jack5 (4,571 comments) says:

    Ryan, for a determinist such as your good self, would the jump to Islam be that hard?

    The fatalism must appeal to a determinist, surely? Or does giving up bacon and pork not appeal?

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  49. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    Ryan, for a determinist such as your good self, would the jump to Islam be that hard?

    The fatalism must appeal to a determinist, surely? Or does giving up bacon and pork not appeal?

    I’m a pescatarian, Jack. I’ve already given up bacon and pork. However, fuck giving up oysters.

    And as far as I know, “free will” is integral to Islam, as it is to most forms of Christianity. Calvinist Christians seem pretty logically consistent, though. I can’t help but admire the bullet-biting quality of Calvinism.

    ME: So you agree there’s no free will.
    CALVINIST: Yep, absolutely. High-five!
    ME: But… then doesn’t that mean God created vast swathes of humans purely for them to go to hell?
    CALVINIST: YEP!
    ME: That’s… That’s cool with you?
    CALVINIST: Yep, sweet as. God is well ineffable.
    ME: Well, then. I can’t really fault your reasoning…

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  50. deadrightkev (273 comments) says:

    Muslims have 6 or 7 kids per family and it is in their culture to take over the world eventually and kill anyone that doesnt follow the muslim faith. They might not say that in public but that is the objective.

    I recall some catholic priests being a tad fond of little boys but not blowing up many planes or buildings. I think we are safer with the Catholics.

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  51. kiki (425 comments) says:

    how can free will be associated with a religion that to join you say submit three times?

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  52. kiki (425 comments) says:

    I always wonder what would happen if the US and Europe converted to islam. They could then have free rein on the Arab world like the Turks did and no one could complain. As far as religion goes it wouldn’t be much of a leap for some.

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  53. kiwitoffee (383 comments) says:

    I’ve been told that a year or two ago in Amsterdam, the most common first name registered for baby boys was…Mohammed.
    Is this true?

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  54. freethinker (680 comments) says:

    Somali Muslims in Christchurch seem to punch well beyond their weight in crime with no attempt to even integrate, retaining the dress, Language and some barbaric cultural practicesfrom Somalia. This type of multicultural immigration cannot work so I suggest no dole after a year and criminals be deported with dependents, instantly using werever possible the option for them to serve their sentence in their home country – no exceptions – I remember the harsh deportrment treatment meeted out to a law abiding German couple who failed to declare an historic minor drug conviction in germany and that couple actually contributed to society and had the support of their local community. The adage of when in Rome be Roman should apply in the West – no exceptions!

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  55. kiki (425 comments) says:

    Most common name in England as well.

    Remember history does not move in straight lines and progress is not a given. When you read history and changes like the Lombard invasion of Rome or even the settler invasion of NZ real people were involved and the feeling you have has been had by many people in the past, remember outside death and taxes change is the only certainty.

    Nothing is forever.

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  56. noodle (151 comments) says:

    Ryan. While you are leaping about happy in your pescatarianism, good spelling and general oblivion to reality, there are people who will mark you as an example of Western poofery and weakness. Islamists ? You make them laugh and give them strength. The time for “reasoning” is well over. In fact, there was never a time for reason in this war.

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  57. kiwitoffee (383 comments) says:

    The advantage Muslims have over most Europeans, of course, is that most Europeans now believe in anything other than Christianity.

    Commonly this amounts to a belief in the primacy of satisfying your own sexual and materialistic wants (which include having coffee on Statutory Holy Days) at the expense of everything else. And I mean everything.

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  58. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    I’ve been told that a year or two ago in Amsterdam, the most common first name registered for baby boys was…Mohammed.
    Is this true?

    Yes, but not only in Amsterdam, but also in Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht.

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  59. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    kiwitoffee: The advantage Muslims have over most Europeans, of course, is that most Europeans now believe in anything other than Christianity.

    Yes, but also that Islam takes advantage of the freedoms of the West to bring in its totalitarian rule under our noses, because we’re too busy advocating “tolerance” and “multiculturalism”.

    Question: where is the “tolerance” and “multiculturalism” in Saudi Arabia or Iran? Or even Indonesia?

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  60. capt_marko_ramius (1 comment) says:

    Ryan Sproull January 9th, 2010 at 9:37 pm “…And as far as I know, “free will” is integral to Islam…”

    Dude check your facts how does your understanding of “free will” work? Especially as the muslim religious system views one who has submitted (a muslim) as guilty of high treason (punishable by death) for wanting to convert to something else after becoming a muslim ….. make no mistake there is nothing free about islam …..

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  61. kiwitoffee (383 comments) says:

    Major Bloodnock:
    Yes, Muslims do take advantage of our freedoms. And we abuse our freedoms.
    Multiculturalism? In the light of my own experience and borrowing from Martin Amis, I no longer use that term without the prefix ‘one-way’.

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  62. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    Ryan. While you are leaping about happy in your pescatarianism, good spelling and general oblivion to reality, there are people who will mark you as an example of Western poofery and weakness.

    Oh, gosh, I do hope they wait until after school.

    Islamists ? You make them laugh and give them strength. The time for “reasoning” is well over. In fact, there was never a time for reason in this war.

    Congratulations – you’ve found something you agree with them on! You can form a club. You could call it something like, “No Reason!” Or perhaps the more boring sounding “Society for Looking Down on Thinking”.

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  63. Zapper (925 comments) says:

    All this because some people think their imaginary friend is better than others…such a waste

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  64. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    Yes, but also that Islam takes advantage of the freedoms of the West to bring in its totalitarian rule under our noses, because we’re too busy advocating “tolerance” and “multiculturalism”.

    Question: where is the “tolerance” and “multiculturalism” in Saudi Arabia or Iran? Or even Indonesia?

    Nowhere, because they’re too busy advocating intolerance and monoculturalism.

    Which would you prefer to advocate here?

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  65. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    Which would you prefer to advocate here?
    Don’t let in any more muslim immigrants.
    Make it clear that while we respect religious freedom, we will not change our laws to accommodate them. We will not reduce our freedoms (including freedom of speech that allows newspapers to publish cartoons they might consider blasphemous) for them.

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  66. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    Bloodnok,

    The moment you ask people at the gate what their religion is, and tell them they’re not welcome if they answer incorrectly, you categorically do not respect religious freedom.

    That is the kind of thing one might expect from Iran, Saudi Arabia or even Indonesia. It is not something we want here.

    Neither do we want any reduction in freedom of speech here. I agree with you on that.

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  67. starboard (2,471 comments) says:

    From Crusader Rabbit, reported in the Daily Mail

    An immigrant carried out a knifepoint attack to be deported back to a war-torn African country – because he found Britain worse than his homeland. Kasiba Misigaro, 21, who was living off state handouts, had asked the immigration services to send him home but they did nothing – despite him having been convicted of 21 offences over the past five years. …James Lofthouse, prosecuting, told Inner London Crown Court: ‘He was on benefits, hates being in the UK, has no interest in working or integrating, has no money, and would commit further offences if he remained here.

    well intergrated chap…we dont want them…shut the gate.

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  68. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    We certainly should not import beneficiaries! Of any sort. We have enough competition already.

    Ryan, I’m not saying don’t let them in — they’re welcome to visit. Just don’t give them permanent residence or citizenship.

    If it is ok to send away an English couple who have been here 4 years, working productively and contributing to society (and everyone who knew them regarded it as a shame that were not allowed to stay), then it is certainly ok to refuse residency to people who will not integrate.

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  69. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull [January 9th, 2010 at 8:27 pm],

    Perhaps you could point out where I said that such celebrations are okay? Or you could apologise for suggesting that I do. You pick.

    Of course you didn’t state it outright, and so I apologise for that.
    But your response to Komata’s 7:28 pm comment really does intrigue me, just as your comments often do:

    Ryan Sproull (3203) Says:
    January 9th, 2010 at 7:36 pm

    There are NO ‘moderate’ muslims – only ’sleeping’ ones – they are merely waiting their time until their numbers are sufficient to make an impact – their birth-rate rising while all others are falling. They are of course aided and abetted by the civil libertarians, duplicious lawyers and the usual vocal socialst supporters – the sort of hand-wringing westerners that islam has conned into being their servants in Europe, and with 63,000-plus adherants in NZ

    Oh my God! Could things be any worse?!

    (2000 of these being maori)

    AAAARGH!

    You mock others and accuse them of being ‘paranoid’, and when queried come back with this:

    Ryan Sproull [January 9th, 2010 at 7:57 pm]

    Kris,

    My 7.36pm comment was in reply to a statement so incredibly absurd that I actually had to search through Kiwiblog for the author’s previous posts to make sure I was not about to foolishly treat satire as a genuine expression of paranoia.

    Really?
    “incredibly absurd”, ” … to make sure I was not about to foolishly treat satire as a genuine expression of paranoia.”
    If you read through most of the comments on this thread you will find the majority share Komata’s concerns, and do not find what was expressed “absurd” in the least.

    The fact that you DO, leads me to conclude that either you sympathise with ALL shades of Islam (hence my little dig at you), or else you are incredibly naive. The other possibility is you are just having a ‘wind up’ of others. I have noticed that you often make snipe type comments, but seldom reveal your full hand on a given topic. Is there a reason for this?

    Most here are pretty up front with their views, Ryan, but on many topics I seldom feel I really know where you stand. You often seem to play at ‘devil’s advocate’.

    Anyway, glad to know you don’t support Muslims in NZ celebrating the 911 disaster.
    And I apologise, again, for implying you did.

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  70. Pete George (22,784 comments) says:

    Kris, if all Muslims are “sleepers” waiting to take over the world why haven’t they succeeded yet? Haven’t they had over a millennium to do it?

    If all communists and all Muslims disappeared overnight (say, a targeted asteroid wiped them out) I’m sure a new bogeyman would be found pretty quickly. Maybe it’s safer for me if they keep taking the rap, it could become Christians v. the Common Census.

    Isn’t “rule by fear” an old political and religious trick?

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  71. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull January 10th, 2010 at 12:30 am,

    The moment you ask people at the gate what their religion is, and tell them they’re not welcome if they answer incorrectly, you categorically do not respect religious freedom.

    So we should let them (Muslims) in even if we are sowing the seeds of our own destruction?
    Are we to have no ‘checks and balances’ in the name of “religious freedom” ?

    Perhaps if we rather look at Islam as a destructive and evil culture/philosophy, than a religion, we can get over this fixation with the whole idea that we must let Islam into our borders in the name of “religious freedom.”

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  72. Pete George (22,784 comments) says:

    Perhaps if we rather look at Islam as a destructive and evil culture/philosophy

    Are you aware that many Muslims look on Christianity and the West like that? Our lot are not devoid of evil and destruction and exploitation.

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  73. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George January 10th, 2010 at 9:22 am,

    Kris, if all Muslims are “sleepers” waiting to take over the world why haven’t they succeeded yet? Haven’t they had over a millennium to do it?

    If you want my honest opinion, Pete, it is this:
    I believe that there is a spiritual battle between ALL false religions and the one true religion. Literally between Satan and the God of the Bible.

    As what were tradionally Christian nations (generally Western nations, but not exclusively) have cast of their mantle of Christianity, they have also lost the spiritual protection that was afforded them by their submission to, and acknowledgment of, the Christ of the Bible.
    Thus Islam, although it had tried to conquer the Christian world in the past, was always driven back, and kept out of Christian nations.
    Now, though, as the West has ceased to honour Christ we have essentially opened the spiritual floodgates to Islam; and with little opposition it has/is flooded into our nations.

    The fact that much of the Islamic immigration into the West, and the escalating Islamic terrorism against the West, has occurred in very recent history bares testimony, I believe, to the above claims.

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  74. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    The fact that you DO, leads me to conclude that either you sympathise with ALL shades of Islam (hence my little dig at you), or else you are incredibly naive.

    Kris, I found the suggestion that all Muslims in New Zealand are biding their time to take over, partly by out-breeding us utterly absurd.

    How on earth do you take from that my “sympathy for ALL shades of Islam”?

    The other possibility is you are just having a ‘wind up’ of others. I have noticed that you often make snipe type comments, but seldom reveal your full hand on a given topic. Is there a reason for this? Most here are pretty up front with their views, Ryan, but on many topics I seldom feel I really know where you stand. You often seem to play at ‘devil’s advocate’.

    I’ll answer honestly any question you ask me. I may have given you this impression because many topics discussed on Kiwiblog are of absolutely no interest to me, and I have no particular opinion on them. (Generally party politics.)

    Anyway, glad to know you don’t support Muslims in NZ celebrating the 911 disaster.
    And I apologise, again, for implying you did.

    Apology accepted. It’s just bizarre that you leapt to that notion. There must surely be some ground between “there are no moderate Muslims in New Zealand” and “it is awesome that someone in Invercargill may have celebrated mass murder”.

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  75. Pete George (22,784 comments) says:

    I believe that there is a spiritual battle between ALL false religions and the one true religion.

    How many religious factions believe theirs is the only true one? There have been many spiritual battles (and often accompanied by physical battles) going on for a long time.

    In the educated parts of the world I think most people who “cease to honour Christ” are not interested in being flooded by Islam, or any other religion. They are instead being flooded with over-commercialisation. The house of prayer has becoming a den of thieves. Over-promoting the Muslim threat is possibly just a part of that, there is good money in fear for some.

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  76. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 9:31 am,

    Perhaps if we rather look at Islam as a destructive and evil culture/philosophy

    Are you aware that many Muslims look on Christianity and the West like that? Our lot are not devoid of evil and destruction and exploitation.

    Yes, I am aware of that, Pete.
    Of course, as I just outlined, the West and Christianity are largely mutually exclusive in this post-Christian era (sad to say), and so many of their (Islamic) claims have some validity in the area of declining morals, etc. But, also, for Islam to be the one true religion, and Allah the one true god, then ALL others, especially Christianity and Judaism, must be subjugated and destroyed.

    If you think about it, the fact that Islam is primarily against Christianity and Judaism, you realise that Islam implicitly acknowledges that the God of the Bible is the One true God, and that Christianity/Judaism alone acknowledge the One true God.
    Much in the same way that the atheistic world accepts/tolerates ALL religions EXCEPT Christianity/Judaism – ever thought of why?

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  77. Pete George (22,784 comments) says:

    Much in the same way that the atheistic world accepts/tolerates ALL religions EXCEPT Christianity/Judaism

    That’s an astounding generalisation.

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  78. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    So we should let them (Muslims) in even if we are sowing the seeds of our own destruction?
    Are we to have no ‘checks and balances’ in the name of “religious freedom” ?

    As I’ve said many times, we don’t destroy our religious freedom in the name of protecting it.

    Perhaps if we rather look at Islam as a destructive and evil culture/philosophy, than a religion, we can get over this fixation with the whole idea that we must let Islam into our borders in the name of “religious freedom.”

    I can see what you’re saying here, but we already have laws against acting destructively in New Zealand. It would be quite a problematic further step to have laws against destructive thoughts, which is really what you’re advocating. You believe Muslims have criminal thoughts.

    And do you really want a democratic state deciding which religions are “destructive and evil cultures/philosophies”? Leaving your persecution for being a Christian, or lack thereof, up to the whims of a government or a referendum?

    There is no evidence to suggest that Muslims in New Zealand are any more dangerous than anyone else, and plenty to reason to believe that devout Muslims are less dangerous, given that drunk driving is probably the most violent activity in the country.

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  79. Pete George (22,784 comments) says:

    given that drunk driving is probably the most violent activity in the country.

    What about drunk domestic violence and drunk street violence? Bash Saturday, pray Sunday?
    (I acknowledge it’s not only religious people who can be drunken thugs, but generally not Muslims).

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  80. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    What about drunk domestic violence and drunk street violence? Bash Saturday, pray Sunday?

    I was thinking in terms of deaths. Yes, that’s a good point.

    (I acknowledge it’s not only religious people who are drunken thugs).

    I should hope so.

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  81. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull 10:02 am,

    I’ll answer honestly any question you ask me. I may have given you this impression because many topics discussed on Kiwiblog are of absolutely no interest to me, and I have no particular opinion on them. (Generally party politics.)

    I must admit that I have always felt, in our own personal discussions anyway, that you generally have been up front with me.

    And my policy regarding topics that are of “absolutely no interest to me, and I have no particular opinion on” is to generally leave well alone. Also, if I can’t add constructively to a topic I usually keep my mouth shut.
    (Although the occassional dig at Phool can be fun.)

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  82. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull 10:13 am,

    As I’ve said many times, we don’t destroy our religious freedom in the name of protecting it.

    But should we allow a religion/culture (Islam) to florish that will remove our freedoms, and ultimately destroy all non adherents to that religion/culture?

    I can see what you’re saying here, but we already have laws against acting destructively in New Zealand. It would be quite a problematic further step to have laws against destructive thoughts, which is really what you’re advocating. You believe Muslims have criminal thoughts.

    If Muslim “criminal thoughts” lead to Muslim ‘criminal acts of terror’, then we should exclude such individual and their ideologies from our borders. Do I really need to spell out the problems Europe, etc have in this regard?

    And do you really want a democratic state deciding which religions are “destructive and evil cultures/philosophies”? Leaving your persecution for being a Christian, or lack thereof, up to the whims of a government or a referendum?

    We already know which ones are “destructive and evil cultures/philosophies” – we just need to act on it.

    There is no evidence to suggest that Muslims in New Zealand are any more dangerous than anyone else, and plenty to reason to believe that devout Muslims are less dangerous, given that drunk driving is probably the most violent activity in the country.

    Once again, look at Europe/Britain to see our future in this regard.
    I cite my Muslim ‘critical mass’ theory, which I’ve outlined numerous times before, and is born out by the failed attempt to ‘assimilate/integrate’ Muslim immigrants into Europe, et al.

    Anyway, I’ve made my views more than clear on this topic.
    You either agree or disagree – but I do encourage you to look at the ample evidence; others draw similar conclusions to the ones I hold.

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  83. Jack5 (4,571 comments) says:

    Pete George posted at 10.20am:

    …What about drunk domestic violence and drunk street violence? Bash Saturday, pray Sunday?
    (I acknowledge it’s not only religious people who can be drunken thugs, but generally not Muslims)…

    Citing Muslims as exemplars in domestic violence, that is violence towards women?

    Adultresses stoned to death, raped women imprisoned, brutal female circumcision… The Muslim world is appalling in its treatment of women. Veiled, often shut out of schools, polygamy, segregated in mosques.

    The worst flaw in Islam is its treatment of women. This is one of the reasons why the Muslim world lags many centuries behind the West.

    Lefties like Pete George who traditionally have ridden the feminist bandwagon display the peak of hypocrisy in citing Muslim homes as models of peaceful domesticity. Where this is the case it is usually because of the second-rate status of women in the Islam world.

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  84. Whafe (652 comments) says:

    None of this discussion leads me to believe that my thinking that Muslims are the greatest problem the world has at present is wrong…

    I am trying hard not to have these thoughts, but I do…

    The issue with Muslims is that they dont respect others views etc…. Many religious people respect others views even if they are not like their own…

    The Muslims are a coming……

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  85. Pete George (22,784 comments) says:

    Jack, you have made a lot of false assumptions and accusations. I said that Muslims generally are not drunken thugs, that doesn’t mean none of them are thugs.

    I’m well aware of that bad treatment of women by many Muslims.

    The point Ryan made is that there are more dangers to us (that is us, not Muslim women) in NZ from drunks than from Muslims.

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  86. Jack5 (4,571 comments) says:

    Pete George, in your 10.20 post you clearly cited domestic violence. This is part of your series of posts defending Islam.

    You try to backtrack by saying:

    …I’m well aware of that bad treatment of women by many Muslims…

    We’re not talking about some Muslims here. We are talking about the whole place of women under Islam. They do not have equal rights. Some Muslims believe they don’t even have souls as men do.

    Hijabs, polygamy, arranged child marriage, restricted education (in some cases as in Taleban Afghanistan, none), in some countries brutal female circumcision, acid in the faces of Pakistani women, rape victims imprisoned or exiled…

    Defend Islam if you will but don’t be such a hypocrite as to deny Islam’s appalling status and treatment of women.

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  87. Brian Smaller (3,988 comments) says:

    However in the US, they are much better with integration.

    Yes, they can only count their home grown jihadis in the thousands.

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  88. Pete George (22,784 comments) says:

    I’m not denying Islam’s treatment of women. But that is not what was being discussed. You have changed the focus.

    Are you denying the threat to NZ society from drunken violence?
    Are you denying that alcohol is more of a problem in NZ than Muslims?

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  89. Zapper (925 comments) says:

    “I believe that there is a spiritual battle between ALL false religions and the one true religion. Literally between Satan and the God of the Bible.”

    That is hilarious!

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  90. starboard (2,471 comments) says:

    geez you go off on some funny angles PG but let me say this…we know from our observations around the world that Muslim=bad…you can dress it up all you want and call it what you like but there is no getting away from the fact that Muslim=bad…lets make an early call as a country and say..sorry muslim you are not welcome..we do not want you. Its not PC..but fuck PC..we are talking about our safety and security as a nation.

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  91. joe90 (273 comments) says:

    That is hilarious!

    Then you’ll love the lolcat Bible Translation Project

    Oh hai. In teh beginnin Ceiling Cat maded teh skiez An da Urfs, but he did not eated dem.

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  92. Jack5 (4,571 comments) says:

    Pete George in his 11.45 post tries to sidestep from discussion of the giant flaw in Islam – it’s attitude and treatment of women.

    This is its biggest hurdle in adapting to modernity.

    This thread is about Islamic integration in NZ, not about alcohol problems.

    Here’s a pertinent question: now that the language-training schools are bringing in Saudi students to NZ, are any Saudi females coming to study, and if so what proportion of the total number?

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  93. Pete George (22,784 comments) says:

    Integration into NZ involves alcohol, as it is a big part of NZ life – should we insist that Muslims in NZ adopt our binge booze culture?

    We do insist Muslims live within our laws as much as anyone else regarding equal opportunity and non-violence.

    Was this a Muslim family? http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2010/01/barbaric.html

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  94. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    The best weapon against Islam and it’s problems, is one which is slowly but surely doing for Christianity; enlightenment, reason, science, common sense and not giving respect to nonsense just because some people claim it dear to their hearts.

    Kris et al would have us believe that Christianity is the answer. It hasn’t worked. I accept that Christianity currently generates less violent nutters than Islam, however it hasn’t worked and is unlikely to suddenly start. You can’t disabuse people of one set silly ideas based on myths by giving them another set of silly ideas based on myths.

    The West is hamstrung in the fight against Islam’s worst features because of our history of giving respect to nonsense. Our particular religions are reasonably harmless and house-trained, so this has been a workable political compromise. Except now it leaves us powerless to attack Islam at it’s weakest point; namely the whole absurd basis.

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  95. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    Want to see something cool?

    On Google, start typing “Christianity is” or “Buddhism is” or “Hinduism is” and watch the autocomplete showing you common search phrases.

    Then try “Islam is”.

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  96. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    Ryan, you’re smart enough to know that is just Google programmers, messing with your head. (They’re too scared to insult Islam — thus proving my original point on this whole thread.)

    Try the same exercise using Bing (go to Bing.com and type in the same phrases), and you’ll get a different result.

    Proves: nothing.

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  97. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    Blood,

    It seems very clearly to be Google being scared of offending Muslims.

    What did you think I was trying to prove?

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  98. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    Or perhaps Google have instigated a policy of respecting religious beliefs and have randomly picked Islam to be the first.

    The sort of respect many were demanding here re the St Matthew-in-the-City billboard.

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  99. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    You weren’t trying to prove anything, Ryan. It was just “something cool” in your eyes. (Proof normally involves a set of assertions with corroborating evidence.)

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  100. Pete George (22,784 comments) says:

    But Google says it’s just a software problem.

    “This is a bug and we’re working to fix it as quickly as we can,” a Google spokesman told Wired.com.

    Google says it filters out “pornographic terms, dirty words, and hate and violence terms.”

    That means it’s most likely someone at Google got a complaint, added the phrase to a list of skip words, like f**K, seeing the results as hate and violence — perhaps without even looking at suggestions for other religions.

    http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/01/google-islam-censorship/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Index+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29

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  101. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    Malcolm, there is a difference between respecting private property rights (eg a billboard on private land), and not offending someone’s belief system (which then impinges on the right to freedom of speech).

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  102. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    MajorBloodnok, my point is that some here will be upset that Google has eliminated suggestions that might offend Muslims, but some of those same people would tell us that the St Matthew-in-the-City billboard was offensive to them and shouldn’t have been put up. Or at least that the vandals were justified in defacing/destroying the billboard.

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  103. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    Well, then they are being inconsistent. I agree with you on that.

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  104. starboard (2,471 comments) says:

    ..having said all that…we should retain some to run the kebab shops…I couldnt go without my friday night chicken kebab topped with hummis and chilli.

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  105. Robert Black (423 comments) says:

    Any country that allows Muslims as it’s citizens is stupid.

    Yeah, NZ, so, say no more.

    And will regret it in the future at some point.

    Need I point to England as an example?

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  106. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Malcolm [January 10th, 2010 at 1:13 pm],

    Kris et al would have us believe that Christianity is the answer. It hasn’t worked. I accept that Christianity currently generates less violent nutters than Islam, however it hasn’t worked and is unlikely to suddenly start. You can’t disabuse people of one set silly ideas based on myths by giving them another set of silly ideas based on myths.

    Really?
    I think you’ll find, Malcolm, that the reason (typically) the West has been protected from Islam et al is because of its Christian heritage, and, until recently (~40 years), the fact that the majority of the populace embraced Christianity, or at least biblical values. There is also a link, I believe, between the prosperity the West has enjoyed and its Christian heritage.
    Basically God (of the Bible) blesses those nations that submit to His rule; His word.

    The recent decline of our (the West) prosperity, and the reduction of spiritual protection afforded against the likes of Islam are resultant of the recent deshackling of Western culture from submission to God and His word IMHO.

    The West is hamstrung in the fight against Islam’s worst features because of our history of giving respect to nonsense. Our particular religions are reasonably harmless and house-trained, so this has been a workable political compromise. Except now it leaves us powerless to attack Islam at it’s weakest point; namely the whole absurd basis.

    You’ve got that ’round the wrong way, Malcolm.
    It is more the case that the West is (was) “house-trained” because of its traditional submission to God and His word.
    The moral decline, increasing promiscuity, increasing violence, reducing respect for others, etc., have ALL come about, once again, since the West has deshackled itself from Christianity.

    That someone of your intelligence denies what is recent history truly astounds me – although you aren’t alone in that.

    PS The battle between Islam and Judaism/Christianity is a spiritual one which manifests itself physically in the world – this is where the battle will be lost or won. Man made peace treaties, giving up land for peace (Israel), attempts to assimilate/integrate Muslims, etc., are ALL doomed to failure, and can be observed to have failed rather spectacularly to date.

    Bottom line:
    Man is NOT in control of his own destiny; God is.
    Our choice is to either submit to Him or not – those that do not will, ultimately, suffer the consequences of that choice.

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  107. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Malcolm [January 10th, 2010 at 2:11 pm],

    Or perhaps Google have instigated a policy of respecting religious beliefs and have randomly picked Islam to be the first.

    Don’t be so naive, Malcolm.
    The reason, when you type “Islam is” into Google, that the auto-complete doesn’t follow up with any negative options (or any at all in fact) is the same reason that the MSM will not present much of what myself and others have openly expressed about Islam/Muslims in this thread. Islam must be pandered to.

    Of course type in “Christianity is” or “Buddhism is” or “Hinduism is” and watch the autocomplete prompt with such things as:

    Christianity is … a cult, … bullshit, … a lie, … a joke, … dying, … wrong, … false, etc.

    Are we really surprised?

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  108. Zapper (925 comments) says:

    You crack me up Kris. Your imaginary friend is definitely the most wicked cool!

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