Does he have a point?

February 6th, 2010 at 10:33 am by David Farrar

The Daily Beast interviews Nigerian Nobel laureate .

What did the 76-year-old Mr. Soyinka—who divides his time between the U.S. and Nigeria—make of his country’s placement on a watch-list of states deemed to be incubators of Islamist terrorism? “That was an irrational, knee-jerk reaction by the Americans. The man did not get radicalized in Nigeria. It happened in England, where he went to university.

As did the 7/7 bombers.

“England is a cesspit. England is the breeding ground of fundamentalist Muslims. Its social logic is to allow all religions to preach openly. But this is illogic, because none of the other religions preach apocalyptic violence.

And remember this is a Nigerian, who has opposed apartheid in South Africa and the military rulers of his homeland.

Our conversation turned to Nigeria, where ferocious killings had just occurred in the central city of Jos, with Muslims slaughtering Christians, and vice-versa. Mr. Soyinka, here, began to brood: “A virus has attacked the world of sense and sensibility, and it has spread to Nigeria, where it has taken on a sanguinary dimension. Roaming hordes of killers are entering homes and dragging out people of other faiths and hacking them to death. In my youth, you heard, side-by-side, the church bells ringing and the beautiful, sonorous call to prayer of the muezzin. But now, it’s a disease. One doesn’t really know how to handle it.”

In other words, it was not always that way.

The day before, in his lecture on The Road, Mr. Soyinka earned a burst of applause with his own, ingenious solution: “I think this is where our rocket engineers and astronauts can come to our rescue. We should assemble all those who are pure and cannot abide other faiths, put them all in rockets, and fire them into space.” In our own conversation, he offered—almost apologetically—a more prosaic solution: “Education. And rigorous punishment for those who feel, not ‘I’m right, you’re wrong,’ but ‘I’m right, you’re dead.'”

I think such sentiments will get a lot of virtual applause also.

In Mr. Soyinka’s view, the origins of the current phase of the world’s religious strife—including all of the bloodshed in Nigeria—lie with Ayatollah Khomeini and his fatwa against Salman Rushdie, in 1989. “It all began when he assumed the power of life and death over the life of a writer. This was a watershed between doctrinaire aggression and physical aggression. There was an escalation. The assumption of power over life and death then passed to every single inconsequential Muslim in the world—as if someone had given them a new stature.

is the descendent of this phenomenon.

While it is not quite as simple as this, I think he is close to the mark. The world should have reacted to the fatwa against Rushdie with strength – sanctions if necessary. The EU should have said it is unacceptable for a Government to declare a death sentence over a non citizen due to a book they wrote, and that until it is rescinded, there will be no trade with Iran because you do not trade with barbarians.

More recently the world missed another opportunity with the Danish cartoons. The correct response to the death threats should have been not appeasement, but every newspaper in the western world publishing the cartoons.

Tags: , , ,

93 Responses to “Does he have a point?”

  1. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    I like the cut of his jib.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. kowtow (8,774 comments) says:

    This article from Speigel,relates very much to the topic……cartoons ,Rushdie ,fatwa,Western fears and self censorship.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,669888,00.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    There does seem to be an attitude of appeasement towards extremist islam.

    As Nazi Germany showed us, appeasement against extemists does not work.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. Guy Fawkes (702 comments) says:

    Not only do these Radicals spew forth their bile and invective. The British Government pays them to do it by way of JSA.

    There is a school of thought that suggests that this policy is entirely deliberate. For various conspiritorial reasons?

    There is a long tradition of Radicals visiting, studying and manipulating from England in particular.

    Makes you wonder. The Majority of the Brits are sick of the deliberate policy of Immigration for rank and file Muslims as well.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. KG (11 comments) says:

    No, it’s nowhere near as simple as that. I was in Nigeria during the Biafra war, in 1970 when Ibo were being slaughtered. Tribalism plays a large part in this–as it does everywhere in Africa.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    And among the benighted in New Zealand KG.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    The Pom’s will pay for their stupidity. In fact it has already happened. We are next.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/7039572/Muslim-police-say-Islam-not-to-blame-for-terror-attacks.html

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2004/11/british-police-forces-to-recruit-more-muslim-officers.html

    http://www.eurotopics.net/en/archiv/article/ARTICLE64419-Muslim-police-officers-against-British-anti-terror-strategy

    http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/184701.php

    http://www.islamist-watch.org/1134/top-british-muslim-police-officer-agrees-deal

    http://www.weaselzippers.net/blog/2009/01/video-british-police-run-away-from-allah-akhbar-screaming-muslim-protesters.html

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1244889/Muslim-police-officers-warn-anti-terrorism-strategy-British-values.html

    http://theopinionator.typepad.com/my_weblog/2009/08/i-am-so-appalled-i-am-just-about-speechless–just-a-few-days-agoi-wrote-a-blog-regardingthe-news-thatbritains-somerset-and-a.html

    Sorry there are thousands more but my clicker finger wore out.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    The Poms are already stuffed we are next:

    http://www.namp-uk.com/

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/7039572/Muslim-police-say-Islam-not-to-blame-for-terror-attacks.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/jun/10/race.topstories3

    http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/2440

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    If any of you fancy more humorous reading regarding the religion of peace go here.

    http://www.google.co.nz/#hl=en&source=hp&q=Muslim-police&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=Muslim-police&fp=6aed753a793df92e

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. eszett (2,430 comments) says:

    # KG (10) Says:
    February 6th, 2010 at 1:36 pm

    No, it’s nowhere near as simple as that. I was in Nigeria during the Biafra war, in 1970 when Ibo were being slaughtered. Tribalism plays a large part in this–as it does everywhere in Africa.

    Couldn’t agree more, I am a bit suspect when I read such an article, squarely trying to blame all troubles of Nigeria on Islamic extremism. The “country” carved out by British colonist have combined three major tribes, the Hausa, Ibo and Yoruba and a huge number of smaller tribes. Corruption and tribalism is more on issue, religion is a recent pretense, an added spice to conflict that has been around for decades.

    As for Salman Rushdie, yes indeed he has a point, albeit a small one. The Salman Rushdie fatwa was a nice distraction for the Iranian rulers and should have been met with far more resistance (in hindsight). But surely it was not the birth of islamic extremism. That is far more complex issue.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. Nigel Kearney (1,049 comments) says:

    I don’t know that the ‘social logic is to allow all religions to preach openly’ is limited to the UK. NZ, the USA and other countries are the same but are not terrorist breeding grounds like the UK is. The reason that extremists prefer Britain must be something else. I wonder if the way they caved in to the IRA and their friends instead of exterminating them like vermin sent a message that the UK is particularly soft on this sort of thing.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    We of course are not soft on caving in to extremists. When was Tama Iti’s trial held then? What was the verdict?

    Shit I’ve forgotten can anyone remind me??

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. kowtow (8,774 comments) says:

    I dont think Britain is deliberatly soft on what has become its first modern real case of “domestic terrorism”,(I deliberatly exclude N Ire as that is a separate,tho of course domestic situation and the animal rights nutters)

    I think modern liberal democracies simply dont know how to confront the problem of Islamic terrorism.
    The “enemy” are UK citizens.They are generally ethnics, so its hands off,They are a different religion so its hands off. Many contend they are part of Labours core voters so ,those considerations arise ie alienating your own support base.Many are immigrants so its hands off.
    Politicians are shit scared of the media so dont know how to react.
    The courts and even parliament dont seem to have the balls for a crackdown.

    What people do seem to agree on is that mass immigration has been a disaster ,but how many are still afraid to openly say Enoch was right for fear of being called RACIST.

    Tribalism is part of the problem but you cant discount religion on that ground because the tribes also are divided religiously so you will find the Ibo are largely Christian ,while Hausa are Muslim.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Slightlyrighty 12:21 pm,

    There does seem to be an attitude of appeasement towards extremist islam.

    As Nazi Germany showed us, appeasement against extemists does not work.

    And, of course, Israel’s attempts to appease Islam by giving up HER territory has been an abysmal failure as well.

    No matter where Islam raises it’s head it is a problem to peace, democracy, and civil society.
    Is there any Islamic ‘success story’ anywhere? – or is Islam nothing more than a death cult?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    It will be Kris when the Israelis decide to nuke them and that day is not very far away.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. Ryan Sproull (7,285 comments) says:

    No matter where Islam raises it’s head it is a problem to peace, democracy, and civil society.
    Is there any Islamic ’success story’ anywhere? – or is Islam nothing more than a death cult?

    Let’s talk about where Western foreign investment in resource-rich regions has a tendency to lead.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. eszett (2,430 comments) says:

    # Kris K (1470) Says:
    February 6th, 2010 at 5:14 pm

    Slightlyrighty 12:21 pm,

    There does seem to be an attitude of appeasement towards extremist islam.

    As Nazi Germany showed us, appeasement against extemists does not work.

    And, of course, Israel’s attempts to appease Islam by giving up HER territory has been an abysmal failure as well.

    No matter where Islam raises it’s head it is a problem to peace, democracy, and civil society.
    Is there any Islamic ’success story’ anywhere? – or is Islam nothing more than a death cult?

    No matter where organised fanatical religion raises it’s head it is a problem to peace, democracy, and civil society. That goes as well for Islam as for Christianity and any other religion for that matter. Please don’t pretend that your version of Christianity is any better. Christianity would love to have the same influence (again) as Islam enjoys in some states.

    And it has as much blood on it’s hands as Islam if you look at it over a long enough timeline. Only difference today is that in a western civil society religion has been reigned in and put in it’s place.

    That’s the only way to go with Islam as well. Education of people, knowledge, secularism, freedom of speech and Islam will take the same route as Christianity.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    “That’s the only way to go with Islam as well. Education of people, knowledge, secularism, freedom of speech and Islam will take the same route as Christianity.”

    Unfortunately that is a long slow process and we may not be prepared to wait another 700 years for the islamics to get the message. Especially when they seem to think they can rush the process of islamification by terror tactics.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. andrei (2,668 comments) says:

    That’s the only way to go with Islam as well. Education of people, knowledge, secularism, freedom of speech and Islam will take the same route as Christianity.

    You couldn’t have got that more wrong if you had tried – It is the secularization of society that has given radical Islam is push.

    Thirty years ago Egypt for example was well down the track to secularization but that has been turned about – and of course as this post notes the Islamic Terrorists who have hit us the hardest were actually radicalized in the secular west.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Johnboy 1:51 pm,

    Your fourth link following is insightful:

    http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/184701.php

    September 20, 2006
    British Muslim: “How dare (the police) come to a Muslim area”

    Abu Izadeen and other minions of Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed interrupt a press conference by the Home Secretary about terrorism shouting “how dare you come to a Muslim area”.

    If that isn’t a rejection of British legal sovereignty and an out and out declaration of open rebellion, I don’t know what is. The Home Secretary says Izadeen does not believe that “Muslim areas” are part of Britain. He’s right, he doesn’t.

    [continues]

    This comment highlights something I wonder whether many in the West are aware of; including those politicians and civil servants who facilitate what is little more than uncontrolled (Islamic) immigration?

    That being; the Islamic mindset is that once territory is occupied by ANY number (even one) of Muslims it basically becomes Islamic sovereign territory, and is now regarded as only beholden to Islamic law (Sharia), practices and customs.
    This is the reason we see little respect for Western laws by Muslims in Western countries, along with no desire on the part of Muslims to assimilate into their (new) host nation – “it’s going to eventually become Muslim anyway, so why bother?”
    And no self respecting Muslim submits to an infidel system as infidels are inferior, and are (or will be) little more than slaves (Dhimmis) in the fulness of time.

    And this quote from DPF’s main article is important:

    “England is a cesspit. England is the breeding ground of fundamentalist Muslims. Its social logic is to allow all religions to preach openly. But this is illogic, because none of the other religions preach apocalyptic violence.” [Nigerian Nobel laureate Wole Soyinka]

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Letting the bloody camel-shaggers out of the desert was the real problem. Never could work out why we paid them for the oil when we just had to kill the buggers and take it. One of lifes great mysteries I guess.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    “That being; the Islamic mindset is that once territory is occupied by ANY number (even one) of Muslims it basically becomes Islamic sovereign territory,”

    Thought you would like that one Kris. Just like the foreshore really. Keep praying for me I need all the help I can get.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    eszett 5:31 pm,

    If you think the only difference between Islam and Christianity is ‘700 years’ then you’re more naive than I have given you credit for. If you give Islam another ‘700 years’ (or even another 70 based on current trends), the entire world will be Islamified, and your descendants will be speaking Arabic and under Sharia law (along with the rest of the globe).

    And for the record:
    Many Christians (and others) have been killed throughout modern history by ‘professed Christians’ (who never knew Christ). Guess who burnt Bible believing Christians alive at the stake in the Dark and Middle ages?
    Have a read of ‘Foxes Book of the Martyrs’ for some insight.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. eszett (2,430 comments) says:

    You couldn’t have got that more wrong if you had tried – It is the secularization of society that has given radical Islam is push.

    That’s complete bollocks, Andre. Poverty, lack of education, lack of freedom of speech is what gave Islam extremist the rise in Egypt. It was on a good path, but Mubarak never followed through with democratisation of Egypt. Mind you, the US never pushed hard enough either.

    Secularization is the only option, put religion where it belongs: a private matter, for individuals. It has nothing lost in politics. It worked very well in the western societies. It worked very well here in NZ.

    Keep the religous zealots out of politics.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Johnboy 5:51 pm,

    “That being; the Islamic mindset is that once territory is occupied by ANY number (even one) of Muslims it basically becomes Islamic sovereign territory,”

    Thought you would like that one Kris. Just like the foreshore really. Keep praying for me I need all the help I can get.

    I’m not sure whether your hinting at either a Muslim or Maori heritage, Johnboy. And if I pray for you it should be in regards to you claiming NZ as your sovereign territory – either on the Muslim or Maori ‘ticket’.

    By the way, I have some Maori in me; so maybe we can get together on this? :twisted:

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull 5:26 pm,

    “No matter where Islam raises it’s head it is a problem to peace, democracy, and civil society.
    Is there any Islamic ’success story’ anywhere? – or is Islam nothing more than a death cult?”

    Let’s talk about where Western foreign investment in resource-rich regions has a tendency to lead.

    Indeed, Ryan.
    If I was ‘running the joint’ investments into Muslim countries (I include ALL trade here) would very quickly dry up.
    And I bet all the vested interests would very quickly come up with energy alternatives to oil (if these aren’t already shelved somewhere waiting for such an event).

    Basically the West funds its own demise.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    You are getting confused there Kris I said 700 years at 5:36 not eszett at 5:31.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    eszett 6:03 pm,

    Secularization is the only option, put religion where it belongs: a private matter, for individuals. It has nothing lost in politics. It worked very well in the western societies. It worked very well here in NZ.

    Keep the religous zealots out of politics.

    Trouble is, Eszett, the track record of Atheists in power is even worse than all the others combined – parliament may be a little bare based on your ‘selection’ criteria.

    But in a sense you’ve got it right – the only option that will work re government is when man is dethroned, and Christ is reigning from Jerusalem as Ruler Supreme.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Johnboy 6:16 pm,

    You are getting confused there Kris I said 700 years at 5:36 not eszett at 5:31.

    You did, too. I guess Eszett implied it, though.
    Ignore the 700 years, but I stand by the rest of my comment to Eszett.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. Ryan Sproull (7,285 comments) says:

    I don’t know about demise, Kris, but certainly the West invites trouble. Alternative energy sources to fossil fuels would indeed reduce the West’s dependence on a region that is variously thug- and religion-ruled – including much Western-funded thuggery. Until the world realises the potentialities of post-scarcity energy sources (and that virtually includes nuclear power, but more specifically includes electric cars and god-knows-what alternatives to plastics), the anti-liberal forces of top-down dictatorial regimes in the Middle East will continue, cheered on by Western financial interests.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. Pete George (23,683 comments) says:

    Are you talking about one world government Kris?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. noodle (151 comments) says:

    Watched some of the Wgtn. sevens today. Many costumes, maybe a few Popes , among others. But didn’t see any Mullahs or burquas. Oh, smack own hand Noodle: there must have been some but lost concentration for a bit and missed them.
    Yeah right.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. Johnboy (16,994 comments) says:

    Fun is banned noodle Ayatollah Khomeni said so. Take your self off to the stoning department.

    Its next door to crucifixion.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull 6:28 pm,

    I don’t know about demise, Kris, but certainly the West invites trouble. Alternative energy sources to fossil fuels would indeed reduce the West’s dependence on a region that is variously thug- and religion-ruled – including much Western-funded thuggery. Until the world realises the potentialities of post-scarcity energy sources (and that virtually includes nuclear power, but more specifically includes electric cars and god-knows-what alternatives to plastics), the anti-liberal forces of top-down dictatorial regimes in the Middle East will continue, cheered on by Western financial interests.

    I agree, Ryan (apart from your first sentence).

    And I don’t see electric cars answering the problem, either. Imagine if all cars in NZ became electric overnight – how many extra MWs of generating capacity would be required just for this alone? A few more wind turbines and some additional solar panels just aren’t going to cut it. Or will we dam every available tributary to meet the additional requirements. Can’t see it myself.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 6:29 pm,

    Are you talking about one world government Kris?

    Yes, Pete, but the one after the seven year reign of the Antichrist: Christ will reign for 1000 years following the battle of armageddon. He will also reign after this (and the final judgement) in the new Heavens and Earth; this time from the Heavenly Jerusalem ‘above’ the (new) earth.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. Chthoniid (2,047 comments) says:

    Secularization is the only option, put religion where it belongs: a private matter, for individuals. It has nothing lost in politics. It worked very well in the western societies. It worked very well here in NZ.

    Quite, Western civilisation’s progress has been marked by the steady diminution of the religious sphere and the advance of secular institutions. In the middle ages, the West was behind the Islamic world by most measures we can consider. Trial by combat was considered abhorrent to the more civilised Muslims (cf Usamah ibn Munqidh’s memoirs). The Muslim world was more advanced economically (we get cheque from the Arab world), commerce (coffee, sugar, cotton, carmine, lemon are all Arab loan words), mathematics (algebra anyone), medicine and science.

    The West overtook the Islamic world- eventually- by developing institutions that fenced religion out of the political, legal and scientific spheres. Turkey interestingly, came close with their secular constitution introduced by Ataturk. But for many other Islamic states, the cycle of promoting people to power based on their religious authority has proven a hurdle to imitating Western achievements.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. Pete George (23,683 comments) says:

    I really thought you were against one world government Kris. But you are fine with it as long as it is your one? Is that why you are so much against Muslims and Communists – they are just competition for what you want?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    Interesting, this debate about what things will be like in 700 years. It was about 900 years ago that roaming hordes of killers entered homes and dragged out people of other faiths and hacked them to death. It was called the Crusades.

    Then the Western world slowly civilised, we went through the Enlightenment, and generally accepted that anyone with a different religion to that practised by the majority wasn’t necessarily a barbarian deserving of death. Gradually we came not just to tolerate them but to welcome them – the period Soyinka refers to as when he heard “side-by-side, the church bells ringing and the beautiful, sonorous call to prayer of the muezzin”.

    But nearly 1,000 years later vast sections of the Islamic world hold the view once held by the Crusaders – that a different religion is a blight on the world which needs to be extinguished through bloody warfare (let’s not forget the target of these Christians wasn’t just Muslims but also Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, Waldensians, Old Prussians, and even (or perhaps most importantly) political enemies of the popes).

    It seems the pendulum has swung to the opposite amplitude. Where once the West was the aggressor it is now, as Soyinka argues, willingly complicit in the crusade that is being mounted against it by elements within Islam, all in the name of, for want of a better shorthand term, political correctness.

    But unlike Soyinka I don’t lay the blame at the foot of Khomeni… I see in it parallels with our reaction to a variety of other threats, including those from within Western society. The one with which I am most familiar is crime. We engage in a greater, more passionate debate as to whether we are somehow psychologically damaging a young graffitist by making him wear a pink safety vest than we do over a “three strikes” law. As a society we shy away from a “broken windows” approach to small problems (fatwahs, cartoons, graffiti, minor crime) and then shrug and say “well, there was no alternative” when we’re pushed beyond our limit and strike back in a cataclysmic way (wars, “surgical strikes”, long terms fo recidivists) that make matters worse or, at best, do nothing to combat the causes.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Chthoniid 6:55 pm,

    Secularization is the only option, put religion where it belongs: a private matter, for individuals. It has nothing lost in politics. It worked very well in the western societies. It worked very well here in NZ.

    Quite, Western civilisation’s progress has been marked by the steady diminution of the religious sphere and the advance of secular institutions.

    So I guess you view the moral decline and associated societal ills of the last fifty years, but especially the last thirty years, as a good thing? Because that’s been, and is, one of the MAIN problems as the West has systematically cast off it’s Christian heritage. It’s not all dollars and cents.
    And when you say “… put religion where it belongs: a private matter, for individuals. It has nothing lost in politics”, are you REALLY saying that politics should excude anyone with a Chrsitian worldview and belief system?

    I guess when they’re (politicians) sworn in it would be on Darwin’s little treatise, rather than the Bible – in your version of ‘utopia’.

    God forbid THAT ever happens.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 7:00 pm,

    I really thought you were against one world government Kris.

    Only the ones headed by fallen, sinful men, Pete.
    God on the throne; that’s a whole different kettle of fish.

    Of course the Bible says I’ll be reigning with Him, so I suppose I have a vested interest.
    Bring it on, I say!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Rex Widerstrom 7:03 pm,

    Great comment, Rex. (in lieu of +ve karma)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    Kris K (1477) Says:
    February 6th, 2010 at 6:23 pm

    Trouble is, Eszett, the track record of Atheists in power is even worse than all the others combined – parliament may be a little bare based on your ’selection’ criteria.
    ***************************************

    Atheists don’t commit murder because they are atheists.

    *************************
    But in a sense you’ve got it right – the only option that will work re government is when man is dethroned, and Christ is reigning from Jerusalem as Ruler Supreme.
    ***********************

    Yeah? well Santa Claus is will kick your gods arse. Presents for everyone who is good and none for those who are bad. (which is a damn sight better alternative than what Christians believe will happen to those they subjectively consider to be sinners)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. reid (16,634 comments) says:

    “But nearly 1,000 years later vast sections of the Islamic world hold the view once held by the Crusaders…”

    Care to define “vast” Rex?

    See it’s easy to say but is it possible the MSM headlines reflect only radical views (because they sell papers) and that these views which we hear non-stop are not necessarily truly reflective of the entire society?

    Do you really, for example, think that every single Iranian holds the exact same political view that the MSM portrays in almost every single story you read? Isn’t it possible that Muslim countries operate in precisely the same sociological ways as the ones we live in, where there is a “vast” majority that just wants to have a good life and is relatively apolitical and mild?

    Do you think there is any possibility there are vested interests who feed stories to the MSM with a particular slant? When was the last time you saw a movie that showed an Arab in a positive light?

    I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I think if we’re talking war between the west and Islam, which is where this talk is ultimately leading to, it behoves us all to be aware of the actual facts and not just those ones that vested interests have chosen to show us.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. andrei (2,668 comments) says:

    You know absolutely nothing about the Crusades Rex – The ravaging hordes of the prophet came out of the desert and took to the Christian East.

    The real victims of the crusades my friend were the Christians of the East who had always lived there.

    I know it is fashionable to make Christians s the villains in every story and it is true Western Europeans were barbarians but the Christian East was the most advanced civilization at that time and beset by barbarians on all sides.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Stuart Mackey 7:40 pm,

    Atheists don’t commit murder because they are atheists.

    Of course they don’t; they’re much more altruistic than those that follow ‘religion’ *cough*.

    I notice you didn’t disagree with my assertion that Atheists have murdered more than all the others combined – I guess we’re just quibbling about the ‘why’.

    Some of my best friends are Atheists.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. Chthoniid (2,047 comments) says:

    Actually the point is that secular institutions just separate religion from societies other institutions. They’re not inherently atheistic.

    Not sure how we jump from critiquing Islamic institutions to Kris’s points, but in general, given that Christians no longer have the right to throw people onto a bonfire because they’re a heretic or a witch, I think we’ve made some pretty good progress. I’m pleased my daughter’s epilepsy is treated with medication, rather than ostracism and exorcisms.

    Given I tend to blame modern malaises on the other fairy-tale of socialism, I don’t accept the point that recent problems are a consequence of secular institutions.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. tom hunter (5,086 comments) says:

    That’s the only way to go with Islam as well. Education of people, knowledge, secularism, freedom of speech and Islam will take the same route as Christianity.

    Oh really.

    Take a look at those photos of the… changing fashions…. of Cairo University classes down through the years: 1959, ’78, 1995, and 2004.

    Maybe if Nassar had stayed in power for another twenty years, or if he had not tried so hard to Socialise his country with so much help from the USSR (as did so many other now failing Arab regimes), it would not have happened this way. But let’s just blame the USA specifically or “The West” in general because anything else is too much hard intellectual work.

    Mr Steyn seems to have the eszett’s of the world pretty much summed up:

    Whenever I give a speech on Islam, some or other complacenik always says, “Oh, but they haven’t had time to Westernize. Just you wait and see. Give it another 20 years, and the siren song of Westernization will work its magic.”

    This argument isn’t merely speculative, it’s already been proved wrong by what’s happened over the last 20 years. Compare the Cairo University class of 1959 with those of the 21st century, and then see if you can recite your inevitabilist theories of social evolution with a straight face.

    The idea that social progress is like the wheel or the internal combustion engine — once invented, it can never be uninvented — is one of the laziest assumptions of the Western Left.

    But I think the last word rightly belongs to Instapundit:

    When the Western world was strong and self-confident about its values, they wanted to Westernize.

    Now, not so much.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Grow up, Chthoniid 7:59 pm,

    Have a read of Rex’s 7:03 pm comment – it more than adequately addresses your second paragraph.

    I must have struck a nerve and insulted the one Chthoniid worships – “All hail the holy Darwin”.

    Must be time for me to depart; the tone has taken a decided ‘turn’.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    Kris K (1484) Says:
    February 6th, 2010 at 7:58 pm

    Of course they don’t; they’re much more altruistic than those that follow ‘religion’ *cough*.
    *****************

    Your right, they don’t do it because they are atheists, they have done it for other reasons, as opposed to those of faith/s who do it because of their faith.

    **************
    I notice you didn’t disagree with my assertion that Atheists have murdered more than all the others combined – I guess we’re just quibbling about the ‘why’.

    snip
    ************

    I suspect the why, if that is a factual thing to say, has some thing to do with lacking the appropriate technology to effectively slaughter the perceived unbelievers, not that it stopped them making a good honest effort. Christians, or indeed those of the Islamic persuasion, would have loved to have had machine guns etc long before its invention, because it makes doing gods work of killing the heretics/unbelievers all the more easy. Of course thats the nice thing about a secular state, I don’t have to worry about being killed for being an unbeliever.

    It goes with out saying that my lack of comment on who killed more is because I have not yet read up the details, on which I must profess ignorance.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. Chthoniid (2,047 comments) says:

    No Kris, Rex does not demonstrate the causality you are asserting exists. You’re indulging in a non sequitur.

    I didn’t comment on your remark about Darwin for two simple reasons. First, it isn’t germane to this thread. Second, it was so fantastical and absurd I didn’t treat it with any seriousness. I was fairly certain other readers could pick up this point without me making it obvious.

    Atheists don’t have analogous prophets or holy books to Christians (or Muslims).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    At what stage do the leaders of the western world wake up to the fact that you cannot negotiate with these people?

    How long will they (the mostly liberal and left wing ones) continue to stick their heads in the sand while innocent people are murdered in the name Allah?

    The left need to take a lot of the blame for the mess we are in, for so long they have used immigration as a tool for gaining votes, bring them in and they will vote for us is and was their plan.
    To this day they continue to ignore the problem of radical Muslims because to the left the greater evil is right wing political parties and politicians.

    Those of us who are concerned about the rapid rise of Muslim extremists need to realise that we have two wars to fight, first we must defeat the left, then we can take on the terrorists.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Quite true Bruv, and it would be a lot fucking easier to defeat the left if some of the self professed right wingers on here who are obsessively anti-Christian stopped emptying their magazines into their own ranks. Trying to take down people who are ON OUR SIDE. Total waste of ammunition.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (8783) Says:
    February 6th, 2010 at 8:50 pm
    Quite true Bruv, and it would be a lot fucking easier to defeat the left if some of the self professed right wingers on here who are obsessively anti-Christian stopped emptying their magazines into their own ranks. Trying to take down people who are ON OUR SIDE. Total waste of ammunition
    **************************************

    I have a go at the Christians because some in their ranks still have the idea that its acceptable to force me to swallow their superstition via the use of state power or otherwise, and I will not bow down to any bugger trying to force their beliefs on me in any way shape or form, so who says they are ‘on our side’? The only reason some of them don’t have a go like the Islamics, is that they know they cannot get away with burning the heretics, etc, anymore.

    Trouble around here is that there are no Islamic types on here for me have a go at; produce the raving islamist and I will be sure to have a go at him/her.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    You obsessive moron. Whatever small sin the Christians may be accused of in ” trying to force you to swallow their superstition via the use of state power” is positively minuscule compared to the degree you’ve so willingly taken it up the arse from the socialists over the the last few decades. With nary a murmur of protest.

    You think Christians are a significant threat to your freedom you’ve got no idea, and that’s why you’ve allowed the Progressives to become one hundred times as effective as any group ever has in trying to force you to ” swallow their superstition via the use of state power”.

    I’ll say it again. You’ve got no fucking idea mate. Stop obsessing over Christians. Get real and get a life, get some perspective AND GET RID OF THE FUCKING SOCIALISTS.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (8784) Says:
    February 6th, 2010 at 9:33 pm
    You obsessive moron. Whatever small sin the Christians may be accused of in ” trying to force you to swallow their superstition via the use of state power” is positively minuscule compared to the degree you’ve so willingly taken it up the arse from the socialists over the the last few decades. With nary a murmur of protest.
    ********************************************

    Given that I vote to the right, and you dont know me from a bar of soap, I think that can safely be veiwed as uninformed tripe.

    **********************************
    You think Christians are a significant threat to your freedom you’ve got no idea,
    *******

    I never said they were, I did say that they would like to be, can you spot the difference?

    *****************************
    and that’s why you’ve allowed the Progressives to become one hundred times as effective as any group ever has in trying to force you to ” swallow their superstition via the use of state power”.
    ************************

    I have allowed them? I? perhaps you think I can travel back in time to prevent this heinous iniquity from occurring? Of course If you think I can magic them away, that does beg the question of why you have not?

    ****************
    I’ll say it again. You’ve got no fucking idea mate. Stop obsessing over Christians. Get real and get a life, get some perspective AND GET RID OF THE FUCKING SOCIALISTS.
    ************************

    No idea of what? and why should I not have a go a group of people who, on the feast day of the sun god Ra, bow before a torture device and symbolically consume the flesh and blood of a man who may or may not have existed? I don’t obsess over them, but I do mock them, for they are worthy of mockery, the same as Islamists.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    ” I never said they were, I did say that they would like to be, can you spot the difference?”

    It doesn’t matter. You’re wrong. They don’t want to be, and even if the odd one might, not even to one degree as much as the socialists/ Progressives, and while you’ve been obsessing over your unwarranted fear of Christianity, the socialist/ Progressives have rogered the hell out of you.

    “No idea of what?”

    No idea of how you’ve been rogered, but buying so blindly into Marxists constructs that promote obsessive fear and hatred of Christianity is one of the prime reasons you been so soundly buggered. You’re living in a damn prison created by the Progressives and instead of trying to tear that prison down, you’re all afire in your tiny mind because some of your co-prisoners are not ranting hate mongering secularists like you. Wake the fuck up.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. Zapper (1,027 comments) says:

    Kris K said:

    “Grow up, Chthoniid 7:59 pm,

    Have a read of Rex’s 7:03 pm comment – it more than adequately addresses your second paragraph.

    I must have struck a nerve and insulted the one Chthoniid worships – “All hail the holy Darwin”.

    Must be time for me to depart; the tone has taken a decided ‘turn’.”

    Ha. Kris K the self-professed model of virtue and all that is holy, makes a post that is condescending, hypocritical and that of a complete c**t.

    If you think you behave as a christian is supposed to behave (excluding all the rape, murder and torture encouraged by the bible of course) then you are sadly mistaken.

    The most hypocritical f**kwit I have ever encountered (don’t worry Rufus, you get an honourable mention)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    See, here’s another fucking lame bozo who doesn’t get it. While Zapper and the rest have been gnashing and wailing over Christianity and homosexuality and feminism and racism and a score of other ‘isms’ in a paranoia and concern that has all come about as a result of Marxist / Gramscian political strategies, the left have brick by brick by brick slowly but steadily built a Berlin wall around our culture.

    The room has a giant fucking elephant with its big wide shitty socialist arse squashing everything. While you were wringing your wet wimpy fucking hands over what you thought were all those really big important things, real issues such as (for one example) a constitution that limits government power and restores real political power to the people has been completely overlooked, along with a hundred other issues that should have been addressed in order to prevent government growing into the all powerful all consuming monster it has today.

    As it has at the hands of the Progressives who have fucking outsmarted you all. Fucking hopeless easily manipulated small minded peons. As Alexandar Solzhenitsyn once said, “you deserve everything that has befallen you.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Red
    Its not just the open anti Islamists they want, they are going after israel judiciously too and they will come for us too like that if we don’t defend Israel now.
    http://www.hudsonny.org/2010/02/arguments-ad-hominem-and-by-ethnic-identity-in-defense-of-goldstone-report.php
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3843102,00.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Hey Red, you are right. It’s time to sort out the socialists. This is how we can do it:

    The `Swim` test: the suspected witch socialist would have a rope tied around the waist and rocks (on ropes as well) attached to their feet. The suspect was then thrown into the water if they drowned (which is more than likely) they were wrongly accused, if they floated they were a witch socialist and a trial would be held.

    (Hat tip to Wikipedia)

    So Red, are we singing from the same page this time?

    And we could dispense with the trial, right?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  61. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    And the 76 yo is seriously deluded. I posted a comment to the Paul Thomas opinion column in the Herald, which quoted Soyinka approvingly to that effect, but more politely.

    I pointed out that al Qaeda was formed in response to the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, but the fatwa was not issued against Rushdie until 1989 AND it has since apparently been revoked.

    But why would a novelist let facts get in the way of a good story?

    And what energises al Qaeda recruits presently is the desire to liberate Muslim lands from foreign invaders – yes, again, us westerners.

    You know, we could just get the fuck out of their lands, buy their oil and leave them to their own devices. The idea that these undeveloped nations could do us any real damage is just laughable. We do enough damage to ourselves, as it is, for example, warming our planet into a state that will destroy large scale human civilisation, if not the human species, as we know it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  62. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    Most New Zealander’s don’t have a f**** clue about Islamic terrorism, Islamic Fundamentalism or Muslims in general. My experience is that most Muslims are normal folk however the society behind the religion is generally misogynistic and feudal.

    IMHO, the new wave of Islamic Fundamentalism in the UK are mostly young marginalised 2nd, 3rd etc generation kids from shithole towns up North or in the slum areas of London. They are the ones being recruited and brainwashed and sent to Pakistan for lessons in how to strap bombs to your little sister by the fuckwits who are fronting terrorists groups in the guise of Islam.

    And that is the crux of the matter, Islam is being used as a front for these groups.

    As far as I am aware NZ doesn’t really have much of an Islamic immigration issue besides in parts of Auckland where mini slums were allowed to develop of Somali refugees thanks to some particularly stupid immigration rules enacted by the previous Labour administration.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  63. Pete George (23,683 comments) says:

    You’ve got no fucking idea mate. Stop obsessing over Christians. Get real and get a life, get some perspective AND GET RID OF THE FUCKING SOCIALISTS.

    Who’s obsessing? Promoting division and hatred, touching on extermination, this sounds like NZ’s equivalent of bin Laden, or Hitler. Foaming mouth, fortunately without any teeth.

    A lot of Christian Germans got sucked into the Nazi thing because the persecution was “just the socialists”, “just the gypsies”, “just the insane”, “just the criminals”, “just the Jews”. And that progressed to extermination.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  64. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Oh fuck off with your sick sad hypocrisy. Your mentors and heroes have killed people in the millions and you and all your academic and media and other political friends on the left turned a blind eye. No small government Conservative has or will ever be guilty of the genocide and political persecution your big government friends Stalin Hitler and Mao are guilty of.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  65. Pete George (23,683 comments) says:

    “your sick sad hypocrisy” —-> “political persecution”

    Same old, Redbovinebum, your bullshit runs down your own legs.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  66. kaya (1,360 comments) says:

    An intelligent man, restores a bit of faith.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  67. tom hunter (5,086 comments) says:

    I pointed out that al Qaeda was formed in response to the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan,

    According to people who dealt with him, Osama Bin Laden formed al Qaeda in 1988/89, precisely as the USSR was preparing to withdraw from Afghanistan. It’s one thing to claim a delayed “response”, quite another to claim that such can occur when the supposed reason for it is collapsing at the same time – but then I’m sure Luc knows how deceptive he’s being in stretching the word “response”.

    I suggest you enlighten yourself by reading the following: Inside al Qaeda, Ghost Wars, Holy War Inc., The Looming Tower. The authors may not have your desired stamp of raving Far-Left nutter approval, but they have actually interviewed many of the people involved in all this at the time, including a couple who got to Osama himself.

    …but the fatwa was not issued against Rushdie until 1989…..

    SInce Salman Rushdie was at that time leading a huge invasion force into Iran it makes perfect sense that……..

    Oh right. Actually all he’d done was write a book that contained a few phrases that were taken as an offense against Allah. It’s precisely this incident that demonstrates what nonsense your traditional leftish argument about land and Western oppression is.

    It was a turning point because the Iranian Islamist authorities chose to interfere in the free speech of a western society, to do so in the most extreme way possible, and the West barely roused itself from it’s sleep, let alone spoke out in defence of it’s society and principles. In this, the most notable absentees were the Western Left, those supposed defenders of secularism and freedom of speech. It was fucking shameful, and it gave great encouragement to Islamists around the world.

    It’s about influence, and our modernist societies are influencing theirs in ways that enrage their religious elites, whether we have troops in their countries or not. Those influences are things as innocuous as novels and cartoons – which means there is nothing we could ever do to insulate ourselves from this fanaticism.

    Soyinka understands this, as do increasing numbers of even the Western Left. But not the true believers like Luc.

    …..AND it has since apparently been revoked.

    Actually it has been reaffirmed, at least twice. You”ll note from those articles that Western governments continue the polite fiction that the Iranian government officially does not support the fatwa. This is a diplomatically necessary but nonsensical approach in light of the fact that it is the mullahs who rule the society, a fact the none other than leftists point out whenever the insanity of President Ahmadinejad is raised. I’m sure Luc will continue to try and have it both ways, depending on what argumentative corner he finds himself trapped in.

    Right, another day, another set of Lucisms dispensed with. Meantime, over on the GD thread Luc displays a breathtaking lack of self-awareness:

    …..It was blindingly obvious that the more I presented researched facts along with informed comment,…..

    I think you better stick with AGW, at least there you have the backing of thousands of experts. ;)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  68. Shunda barunda (2,985 comments) says:

    Redbaiter has correctly summed up western culture.
    All you smug pricks sit here and rubbish the crap out of a religion that has served you and your ancestors well, while the very thing that protects you from all the “extremism” and “fundamentalism” you claim to hate is crumbling before your eyes.
    Before you start decrying the many “sins” of the church, I make it very clear that I am not defending such things, but honestly how hard is it to find a few faults in an institution that has been functioning for thousands of years?. You are not clever, you are just smug, and that smug arrogance is the very thing that will ensure you are enslaved by all the shit that you claim you are so concerned about.

    Its ok to not like the church or Christians, just don’t lie that that is actually your position, many who comment here have a pathological HATRED of anything christian. It’s not the Christians that have the problem it is you.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  69. malcolm (1,952 comments) says:

    Shunda, please explain how Christianity will save us from Islamic nutters.

    What saved us from the excesses of ‘Christian’ religions? Putting Christianity in it’s place. It’s became a personal fantasy with minimal access to power and minimal impact on the rest of us. Amen to that.

    Christianity has no solutions to the problem of Islamic nutters and has latched onto the Islam problem simply because it plays well with their perennial threat: “you’ll all go to hell in a handcart if you don’t stick with us”.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  70. Ryan Sproull (7,285 comments) says:

    And I don’t see electric cars answering the problem, either. Imagine if all cars in NZ became electric overnight – how many extra MWs of generating capacity would be required just for this alone? A few more wind turbines and some additional solar panels just aren’t going to cut it. Or will we dam every available tributary to meet the additional requirements. Can’t see it myself.

    Whatever the means of charging electric cars, the point is that there is the possibility of charging them from renewable sources. Well, mainly the sun, which is what powers solar, wind and hydro power. Even if damming every available tributary was necessary to switch to electric cars (and I really doubt that it is), isn’t that an acceptable price to pay to stop incentivising Western meddling in the Middle East – and the inevitable blowback of radicalised opposition to that meddling?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  71. Shunda barunda (2,985 comments) says:

    “Shunda, please explain how Christianity will save us from Islamic nutters.”

    No
    You explain how atheists and other assorted know-it-alls are going to stop Islamic nutters.
    You yourself said the church is irrelevant, so now it’s your turn.
    Tell me how the atheists and social progressives intellectually masturbating with each other is going to solve this problem.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  72. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull [February 7th, 2010 at 1:14 pm],

    Whatever the means of charging electric cars, the point is that there is the possibility of charging them from renewable sources. Well, mainly the sun, which is what powers solar, wind and hydro power. Even if damming every available tributary was necessary to switch to electric cars (and I really doubt that it is), isn’t that an acceptable price to pay to stop incentivising Western meddling in the Middle East – and the inevitable blowback of radicalised opposition to that meddling?

    Wherever we are to get electrical power from, we’re going to need LOTS if we switch from fossil fuels to electricity for our transportation.
    I guess I believe that existing alternative methods will be insufficient – I think we need to look ‘outside the box’ on this one. For instance, cracking water, in a cheap simple manner, is an area I think needs to be further investigated. Many similar suppressed inventions/technologies have been kept out of the public arena to date by, I believe, big corporate/government vested interests.
    If we ‘turned off the oil’, I believe these technologies would ‘suddenly’ come online.

    And Ryan, Middle East/Muslim ‘reaction’ has nothing to do with so called “Western meddling”. This is just the lie presented as truth which we are meant to believe justifies the Islamic ‘response’. To appease Islam is to hasten its aim for global control – make no mistake.

    Just ask Israel how appeasing Islam is working out for them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  73. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Shunda barunda [February 7th, 2010 at 12:35 & 2:08 pm],

    Great comments – agree 100%.

    The “atheists and social progressives” haven’t done too well in this regard to date.
    And, of course, they never will – they will/are just making things worse. One could go as far as saying that, if unchecked, they will be the authors of the destruction of the West.
    Prophecy in action.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  74. Pete George (23,683 comments) says:

    Worse than what Kris? Worse than Christians have done over the last 2,000 years to prove their worth and win over everyone in the world?

    It would be a bit too obvious for Christians and Muslims and atheists to work together to try and improve the world rather than bitch and moan and blame each other for all the problems.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  75. Chthoniid (2,047 comments) says:

    No
    You explain how atheists and other assorted know-it-alls are going to stop Islamic nutters.

    I’m guessing you’re not in the habit of following Christopher Hitchens very closely. Or in the habit of reading Dawkin’s convert corner with the apostate Muslims coming out after reading the God Delusion. Or wondering why the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain invites Dawkins to speak to them.

    Atheism isn’t an ideology, nor is it a political movement. It is simply the absence of faith in a God. I’m quite sure the solution advocated by Chinese atheist communists or Randian objectivisits aren’t going to converge.

    The historical fact is that the West overtook the more brilliant medieval Islamic world by fencing off Christians from exerting authority in politics, the military, science and education. Secularism remains the best tool we have to defeat religious extremism and fundamentalists.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  76. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 3:00 pm,

    It would be a bit too obvious for [professing] Christians and Muslims and atheists to work together to try and improve the world rather than bitch and moan and blame each other for all the problems.

    Yeah, I can just see it now, Pete:
    “Ok everyone, hold hands and gather ’round the fire; we’re all going to sing ‘Kum-bai-ya’.”

    And it will happen – for about three and a half years under the Antichrist and his one world, ecumenical religion.
    Something to look forward to, Pete.
    Sadly, I have a prior engagement and will be unable to attend – put in my apologies, would you?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  77. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Chthoniid 3:04 pm,

    … apostate Muslims coming out …

    Is that legal?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  78. Chthoniid (2,047 comments) says:

    While social sanctions for being apostate are often much more severe than the West, legal systems differ between Islamic countries. Hence, it is often not illegal in more moderate states.

    I note meeting a prominent zoologist of Turcomen extraction- from Iran- who was quite outspoken against Islamic religion. And I’m going to state that Bangladeshi Hanafi croc experts I’ve got drunk with, weren’t exactly the model of piety and faith you might think.

    One of the pervading problems the Islamic world has, is the inheritance of grudges from centuries past. Persians, Turks, Kurds etc, aren’t thrilled that the Arabs think they’re special because Mohammad was Arab. Tribal jealousies have cemented along sectarian lines. Some sects have moderated a lot (e.g. Sunni Hanafi, Shi’ite Ismailians), whilst new fundamentalist (e.g. Sunni Wahibist) have emerged.

    Islam is struggling to accommodate the modern world. Iran has been experiencing steady declines in participation in religion, as the young prefer to hang out with each other and the internet, than grumpy old zealots. Egyptian soap operas have more fans than hardline mosques. Some of what we observe are very reactionary responses by religious authorities to movements that threaten them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  79. kowtow (8,774 comments) says:

    A few points to ponder;

    the Islamic medieval world may have been ‘brilliant”,but it got its ideas from the Persians ,Indians,Greeks and Christian Egyptians and Byzantines that it conquered. It was ” brilliant” in a complex context, not in and of itself.These great “learned” ones possibly destroyed the great library at Alexandria.

    the Crusades began as a response to Islamic aggression against the Christian Byzantine Empire. An empire that sought assitance from the “west”.

    one of the main crusading forces,the Normans, were already well established in the Mediteranean with their own enlightened kingdom in Sicily prior to the start of the crusades.They were therefor not the interlopers that the left and anti Christians often portray them as.

    Constantinople,(Istanbul) fell to Islam in 1453

    Malta withstood a huge Muslim assault in1565

    Muslim aggression against the west saw its armies at the gates of Vienna as recently as 1683

    Greece gained its indepedance from the Turks only in 1821

    Armenians were subject to genocide at the hands of the Turks in 1915

    Turkey illegally occupies north Cyprus,to this day.

    “Muslim”lands were once Christian,and some still have significant Christian minorities, Egypt,Lebanon.Some towns in the West Bank were majority Christian until quite recently.Turkey until the 1920’s war with Greece had a large Christian minority.Syria and Iraq have some of the oldest Christian denominations in existence.Ethiopia has a very ancient Christian tradition.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  80. Pete George (23,683 comments) says:

    If you expect crap to happen and work towards crap happening Kris, it will probably happen for you. Sooner or later. Especially if you criticise and persecute and divide as a core part of your beliefs. Thankfully there are probably about as many people for that approach in NZ as there are Muslims.

    You don’t represent Christ’s philosophies well at all. You seem to be in it more to be proved right/eous.

    There’s a good reason why Christan dominated countries have been moving more towards deliberately secular democracies. The US founders were religious, but they had learnt the hard way from the many persecutions in Europe.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  81. malcolm (1,952 comments) says:

    “Shunda, please explain how Christianity will save us from Islamic nutters.”
    No
    You explain how atheists and other assorted know-it-alls are going to stop Islamic nutters.

    By suggesting that atheists can’t help, you’re implying that Christianity has something special to offer to this problem. Except you won’t say what. You seem to want to make your point, without making it.

    If you’re suggesting that we didn’t have problems from Islam when the West was more Christian and therefore Christianity is the solution, that’s a non sequitur. A correlation but not necessarily a causation. Why hasn’t Christianity cured people of Islam in the last 1400 years? Simple – you can’t disabuse someone of a set of silly fantasies and dogma by giving them an alternative set of silly fantasies and dogma. Better to give them the truth – all religions are nonsense and there aren’t 72 virgins waiting for you.

    Chthoniid has answered this more clearly than I can. In essence Islam needs to be put in it’s place. It needs to be seen by people in Islam-dominated countries in the same way that most people in the west see Christianity – namely a private fantasy and one which should not be allowed anywhere near government.

    Tell me how the atheists and social progressives intellectually masturbating with each other is going to solve this problem.

    I agree that mutal masturbation won’t help. It would help if the West could over-come it’s reluctance to publicly call religion what it is. A load of nonsense. Then we could do the same with Islam and attack at it’s weakest point.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  82. Ryan Sproull (7,285 comments) says:

    Wherever we are to get electrical power from, we’re going to need LOTS if we switch from fossil fuels to electricity for our transportation.

    That does make sense. Fossil fuels are essentially stored up solar energy, that can be released far quicker than it was collected.

    I guess I believe that existing alternative methods will be insufficient – I think we need to look ‘outside the box’ on this one. For instance, cracking water, in a cheap simple manner, is an area I think needs to be further investigated. Many similar suppressed inventions/technologies have been kept out of the public arena to date by, I believe, big corporate/government vested interests.
    If we ‘turned off the oil’, I believe these technologies would ’suddenly’ come online.

    I don’t think the maths works on power from water. Certainly solar, hydro, wind and probably nuclear power research has been held back by our quick fix of fossil fuels.

    And Ryan, Middle East/Muslim ‘reaction’ has nothing to do with so called “Western meddling”. This is just the lie presented as truth which we are meant to believe justifies the Islamic ‘response’. To appease Islam is to hasten its aim for global control – make no mistake.

    Even for those Muslims this is true of (a small minority given the 1 billion Muslims in the world), people’s desire to take over the world or be involved in violence lessens significantly when they can expect 80 years of pretty comfortable middle-class life, and the same for their kids. If you want to destroy the ability for militant Islamic organisations to recruit, give all the kids education, healthcare, food, shelter and a Nintendo Wii.

    Just ask Israel how appeasing Islam is working out for them.

    Now you’re just baiting me.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  83. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete George 5:15 pm

    If you expect crap to happen and work towards crap happening Kris, it will probably happen for you. Sooner or later. Especially if you criticise and persecute and divide as a core part of your beliefs. Thankfully there are probably about as many people for that approach in NZ as there are Muslims.

    You don’t represent Christ’s philosophies well at all. You seem to be in it more to be proved right/eous.

    Actually, Pete, much of what I said earlier was a paraphrase of Christ’s own words in the Scriptures; and alligns pretty well with, as you said, “Christ’s philosophies”.

    You really need to read the Bible a bit more, Pete, if you’re going to give the impression that you have any idea at all about “Christ’s philosophies” and what He taught; otherwise it just comes across as baseless assertions, and not much more than ad hominen attacks against me.

    I’ll leave it with you.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  84. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    reid asks:

    Care to define “vast” Rex?… Isn’t it possible that Muslim countries operate in precisely the same sociological ways as the ones we live in, where there is a “vast” majority that just wants to have a good life and is relatively apolitical and mild?

    Apologies for the delay in responding reid. Anything’s possible, “vast” is indeed subjective, and any stereotype is just that. However, having said that, I don’t imagine for one moment that if a small group of lunatic Westerners were responsible for some cataclysmic act of terror against a Muslim civilisation, the response of ordinary Western people would be cheering, ululating, and firing AK47s into the air.

    A far greater proportion of Westerners want “to have a good life and [are] relatively apolitical and mild”, particularly toward Islam, than are Muslims towards the West. The difference between those two proportions (the BNP and their ilk vs the crowds in the streets post 9/11) seems, to me, vast, though I accept the subjectivity of that term.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  85. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull [February 7th, 2010 at 6:37 pm],

    If you want to destroy the ability for militant Islamic organisations to recruit, give all the kids education, healthcare, food, shelter and a Nintendo Wii.

    Now you’re trying to bait me.
    As you well know, many of the recent Muslim terrorists are/were highly educated, and from wealthy families – for instance the 911 terrorists. The issue has nothing to do with your cited examples, but is fundamental to the belief (from the Koran) that Islam will conquer the world by the sword.
    The issue isn’t “militant Islam”, but the very system of Islam itself, and that it is rotten to the core.

    Just ask Israel how appeasing Islam is working out for them.

    Now you’re just baiting me.

    Not at all.
    Islam aims to ‘cleanse’ the globe of every last Jew (they must before any Muslim can be resurrected).
    Israeli’s live with this reality every day.
    Christians (the so called ‘Christian’ West) are next.
    Then the rest will alternatively be forced to convert to Islam, become slaves (Dhimmis), or will be eliminated.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  86. Pete George (23,683 comments) says:

    And it will happen – for about three and a half years under the Antichrist and his one world, ecumenical religion.

    What did Christ know about this? Could he read? Was the old testament available to him?

    I’m puzzled why you keep warning about this great threat – actually two great threats, Islam and atheists, but then expect it to happen anyway, almost welcome it to prove you right and give you some after death privilege that the “wrong” will miss out on.

    Why don’t you just sit back and smugly wait it out?

    Your aim seems to be for everyone who doesn’t believe the same as you, presumably including the Jews, to be wiped out.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  87. tom hunter (5,086 comments) says:

    It’s an amazing indication of the degree to which people have accepted the “I’m depraved because I’m deprived” fallacy (Hat Tip: West Side Story) that a thread that was designed to make the exact opposite point still does not make a dent in the belief:

    people’s desire to take over the world or be involved in violence lessens significantly when they can expect 80 years of pretty comfortable middle-class life, and the same for their kids.

    They can’t expect this in Britain? I have to say that I’m not entirely resistant to the idea that Britain is steadily sliding towards “shithole” status for the middle class – but that’s a right-wing conservative argument about where the society is heading, not something progressives accept.

    If you want to destroy the ability for militant Islamic organisations to recruit, give all the kids education, healthcare, food, shelter and a Nintendo Wii.

    Again, I’m not resistant to the argument that British public education, the NHS and Council housing are crap – but again, this is surely not something any of the people pushing this line are willing to admit?

    This is one of those “face facts” situations: the people who turn out to be the most fanatical Islamists are not poverty-stricken, illiterate goat herders from Trashcanistan – they’ve been the ones who’ve benefited from Western public education, health, welfare and the liberal freedoms that allowed them to pursue their fantasies.

    Why should it be a further surprise that on the first anniversary of the ‘Tube bombings the Times of London ran a survey of British Muslims that showed 7% agreeing that suicide attacks on civilians could be justified in some circumstances (it rose to 16% for a military target).

    In London alone that translates to some 70,000 people. Sure, few of them will ever pull the trigger, but that’s not exactly a small pool from which to recruit fanatics, especially when only a handful are needed. The latter can be stopped in theory -but what about the 70,000 or so who quietly approve, let alone the wider population who’ll just shrug that it is “as Allah wills”.

    Clearly there is something more going on here than the default left-wing assumptions about a lack of middle-class status, public healthcare, education and welfare. But as long as those continue to be the answers things will get worse.

    For a better insight into what might be going on, read up on this arsehole He left quite a spawn, including Osama.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  88. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    @ Tom Hunter 11.53am

    A little bit of nitpicking from you, Tom, here.

    Here is a quote from Wiki:

    Al-Qaeda evolved from the Maktab al-Khidamat, or the “Services Office”, a Muslim organization founded in 1980 to raise and channel funds and recruit foreign mujahideen for the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan. It was founded by Abdullah Yusuf Azzam, a Palestinian Islamic scholar and member of the Muslim Brotherhood.

    Bin Laden was active in Aghanistan well before the Soviet withdrawal, funded by the Saudi elite, and simply formalised the organisation towards the end of the decade 1980-90.

    Rushdie obviously had no concept of the intensity of Islamic belief. To us westerners, it was an enchanting story. To Muslims, it was a grievous insult. The “satanic verses” (actually a western name for the theological and political dispute that occurred) episode actually signified the death knell of paganism. Like the original adherents to Judaism, many Muslims had a foot in both camps during the transition period. Mohammed recognised that and initially moved to accommodate it, but was forced to recant. It’s a very sensitive issue.

    While I am not religious, if I was, I would much prefer a religion where its teachings took precedence over the state, as Islam does. I just think it’s a shame that Islam did not continue to refine its teachings through the centuries, as Mohammed did during this lifetime.

    Do you remember the “Virgin in a Condom” supposed art on display at Te Papa and the fuss it caused? I sided with those Christians offended by it, even though I am a dyed-in-the-wool atheist. The is simply no need for such gratuitous offence.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  89. Shunda barunda (2,985 comments) says:

    “Atheism isn’t an ideology, nor is it a political movement. ”

    Bullshit.
    It is getting more political all the time, a little club of Jew, oh, I mean Christian haters searching for the “final solution” to the problem of religion.
    Go read some damned history books (try reading with the blinkers off) and see where this sort of shit intellectualism leads to.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  90. Shunda barunda (2,985 comments) says:

    “Secularism remains the best tool we have to defeat religious extremism and fundamentalists.”

    Ha ha ha ha!!
    So if we can just get more people to submit to the idea that life is pointless and meaningless people will be all rational and then we can put up a strong united front?
    Ha!
    You really don’t get it. Whether you like it or not, you and I and most people on this and every other blog are the same. We are part of the small proportion of the human population that think enough about life and humanity to actually want to talk/argue about its future and direction.
    As for the rest of the population? they are happy in their delusion and a big part of that delusion is superstitious thought about everything from earth quake weather to spiritual beings.
    PEOPLE ARE RELIGIOUS BY DEFAULT! and you and Christopher Hitchens and Dawkins can do nothing about it!
    Having a largely benevolent religion like Christianity has served our culture very well, it keeps the masses in order and makes them feel reasonably comfortable. So then we remove that from society and what do we find? People becoming more rational? No. People becoming more caring? No. People living in freedom from self imposed restrictions? No No No NO!!
    What we find is a multitude of new superstitious behaviour and quirky religious devotion to everything from Rugby to Shortland street, shows like “sensing murder” develop cult like followings, fat glutinous pontificating talk show hosts like “Oprah” gain the adoration of millions of loyal fans and treat her like a deity.
    All the decline of Christianity has done is create an explosion of religion that is just more difficult to define, people like being religious, they don’t like being rational.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  91. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Good points above Shunda.

    I guess your point about humans not liking being rational blows economic theory out of the water as its first premise is that we consumers always make rational decisions.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  92. Chthoniid (2,047 comments) says:

    I’m not sure how we get from the Western response to Islamic terrorism to atheism, but the facts as they stand, are that anti-semitism is a fine, Christian tradition that was easily co-opted into the bastardised version of Christianity the Nazi’s adopted.

    Mainstream Christian support for Franco, Mussolini and Hitler remains one of the saddest episodes of the West, and completely at odds with the outward message of benelovence and goodwill. Christians like Bonhoffer were the exception, not the rule- and Bonhoffer had to break away from the Church to do so. The anti-semitic totalitarian states of the West, drew on Christian ideology, not atheist.

    In terms of confronting Islam with an overt Christian agenda, the usual response is ‘are you nuts?’. In the Islamic world, the history of the Crusades has been replaced by myth, and the Christian crusader is seen now only in pejorative terms. Pushing the ‘crusade’ button isn’t going to help.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  93. Shunda barunda (2,985 comments) says:

    Bla bla bla , more blinkered revisionist history.
    At the end of the day our Islamic overlords will be far more tolerant of Christians than secularists, so good luck.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote