Views on NZ Flag

February 5th, 2010 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

The Herald has opinions from pretty much every columnist, and a few others.

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48 Responses to “Views on NZ Flag”

  1. mikeysmokes (269 comments) says:

    Noelle McCarthy???? Isnt she a plagiarist? guess it says alot about the herald

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  2. bearhunter (859 comments) says:

    I’m ambivalent about the NZ flag at best, but when Noelle McCarthy says it’s time for a change, then my crusty-old-bastard-ism springs into action and I begin to resist change.
    For all her guff about her nascent republicanism, she couldn’t even spell James Connolly’s name right. Typical bloody Corkwoman.

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  3. Pete George (22,780 comments) says:

    I played around with some designs last night to try different variations, all involved stars, and red and white on a blue background, to try and keep some of the current look. But the reaction from my test audience of one was “same old”.

    So I think John Roughan is right saying “the way to change the flag is to design a better one.”
    Something bold and different.

    I just thought of another approach…..

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  4. big bruv (13,227 comments) says:

    Who gives a toss what these people think, until the majority (and it should be the vast majority) want a change nothing should happen.

    I like the way DPF used Snell as an example, a man so committed to NZ that he does not even fucking live here.

    I also find it laughable that the very same people who were fighting for democracy over the EFA are happy to trample all over that same democratic process to achieve their goal of changing the flag.

    Typical insecure Kiwis, every single one of them.

    [DPF: Ummn how is advocating for a change tramping over the democratic process? Surely it is using the democratic process. It seems to be defenders of the flag who are aghast that people dare disagree with them and have a say]

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  5. Fibreman (18 comments) says:

    “Our greatest athlete Peter Snell says it is time for a change and would like a silver fern flag.”

    In the same article,

    – our greatest athlete Fred Allen says keep it
    – our greatest athlete Sir John Walker says keep it
    – our greatest athlete Mahe Drysdale says keep it
    – our greatest athlete Andy Ellis says keep it

    Additionally our greatest atheletes Barbara Kendall, Hamish Carter, Ian Ferguson, Sarah Ulmer and “Ted” Henry are all undecided.

    Cherry picking much?

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  6. Angus (536 comments) says:

    . . a bunch if lofty, navel-gazing media elites with romanticized ideas on why the flag must be changed – based on nothing more than platitudinous, feel-good waffle. The country has bigger fish to fry, media fuckwits.

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  7. 3-coil (1,200 comments) says:

    Jim Hopkins has nailed it – the only one talking sense.

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  8. big bruv (13,227 comments) says:

    “[DPF: Ummn how is advocating for a change tramping over the democratic process? Surely it is using the democratic process. It seems to be defenders of the flag who are aghast that people dare disagree with them and have a say]”

    More than happy for you to have your say David, those of us who believe in democracy are like that.

    However, you have admitted many times on here that you will continue to keep fighting for a change to the Easter trading laws irrespective of what the public want, I suggest that you have the same stance over the flag and the republican debate (although I am happy to stand corrected on these last two issues)

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  9. Crampton (214 comments) says:

    White tree on a black field. If we’re going to be Middle Earth, best go all the way. I already have….

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  10. dime (9,392 comments) says:

    i agree bruv.

    people just keep chipping away at these issues until they get their way.

    its a stupid distraction anyway.

    someone mentioned yesterday about focusing on a written constitution first. that would rock. imagine if we had a constitution like the US over the last 10 years. “sorry Helen, thats unconstitutional, cant do it!”

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  11. ephemera (563 comments) says:

    @big bruv

    “However, you have admitted many times on here that you will continue to keep fighting for a change to the Easter trading laws irrespective of what the public want”

    You are speaking to DPF as if he holds elected office, not as a man with a personal blog.

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  12. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    ” The Herald has opinions from pretty much every columnist, and a few others.”

    Really, apart from Peter Snell, they’re all media people, and apart from the general odium they inspire in more conventional NZers, bring nothing to the party really. If I ever wanted to achieve a consensus, I wouldn’t want this collection of bleeding heart confused liberal fuckwits and uninformed political dinosaurs on my side. In fact, that so many of this type of person is for flag change is probably more likely to cement opposition to the move. I mean, they all cheered for global warming too, for just one example. Would they ever know what was up them??

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  13. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    “Extra extra read all about it! Herald columnists discuss Herald campaign!”

    I guess all the children are being well fed and there must no longer be a problem with Child abuse and shit even the leaky home saga and race relations must be resolved, teachers must have bent over and accepted the National Standards dildo as well it seems. Silly me, according to the Herald the most important issue facing New Zealand is they and a small minority don’t like our flag anymore.

    If they dont like the flag so much, then get a referendum going – that way the entire country gets to have their one vote on the matter. I’ll be staking my money on iPredict then the change the flag proponents gets their arse handed to them.

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  14. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    By all means lets discuss this.
    BUT.
    We need to do so in formulating a non-pc constitution that protects us from racist laws and parliament as well.
    It is pointless in having a flag that is bi cultural in a multicultural society.

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  15. excusesofpuppets (134 comments) says:

    Unemployment first, flag later. k thanks.

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  16. fatman43us (166 comments) says:

    If that lot are in favour…..could there be something wrong?

    I wonder what it is?

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  17. KiwiGreg (3,170 comments) says:

    So a foreign-owned regional paper run by BA grads who are only marginally better than teachers is seeking to define national debate. I get that. Just not sure why DPF is buying into it/aiding and abetting.

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  18. insider (1,000 comments) says:

    Wow! Herald writers agree with Herald management. How ordinary.

    Is anyone concerned like me at the Herald’s blatent attempt to manipulate our national identity despite overwhelming negative response to its and former campaigns? It started with a false comparison of the NZ flag against a range of non national flags it would never normally stand against, and now the apparant hyping up of its columnists and selective non representative quoting of ‘authority figures’ in support of its campaign.

    Why wasn’t the headline today “2/3s of readers against us”

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  19. Fale Andrew Lesa (473 comments) says:

    How utterly indecorous of the New Zealand Herald and other second-rate media entities to bring this particular issue to the forefront of media coverage, DESPITE both the prime minister and leader of the opposition declaring quite simplistically that this is not an issue of great concern or importance.

    I use to think the NZ media was apolitical, oh how much has changed in the last several decades…

    The fact is that “Republicanism” is inevitable and most NZ Politicians past and present have accepted this but we the people of New Zealand will decide when is most appropriate and certainly not the NZ Herald or any other partisan-styled media entity for that matter.

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  20. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    ” Tapu Misa says she is a proud NZer but indifferent to the flag.”

    How does that work? Typical word twisting commie.

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  21. Murray (8,838 comments) says:

    “[DPF: Ummn how is advocating for a change tramping over the democratic process?”

    By presenting only one side of an argument with highly a slanted presentation in an effort to pursuade people that they are in a minority.

    Jesus Christ Farrar as a polster you know damned well ow easy it is to manipulate the results of any information and your absoklute whoring on this issue makes you a highly biased advocate. Our very own short Al Gore.

    Self appointed celebrities don’t vet more votes per head than other kiwis. And as for the media they need to check their job descriptions. Quite simply you will not be taking the falg away from New Zealanders. Thats it end of story, get the fuck over yourselves.

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  22. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    How does that work? Typical word twisting commie.

    Red, you’re asking how someone can be proud of their country without particularly caring about its flag?

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  23. Pete George (22,780 comments) says:

    ” Tapu Misa says she is a proud NZer but indifferent to the flag.”

    How does that work?

    It’s quite easy really.

    Are you proud of the NZ flag? And proud of our NZ democracy?

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  24. Mike S (231 comments) says:

    A bizarre but typically herald lineup. Why do these foreigners think they have anything to add?
    McCarthy – nothing but a pretty accent and good teeth and tits – she’d be a checkout girl otherwise
    Barnett? Who cares? And if people are too dumb to see the difference between the NZ and the Aussie flag, that’s their trouble, not mine.

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  25. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Red, you’re asking how someone can be proud of their country without particularly caring about its flag?

    The question was rhetorical. Tapu Misa is a Global Socialist. She doesn’t believe in countries, she believes in world government and that there should only ever be one real flag and one anthem. (But she won’t say that of course.)

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  26. Jack5 (4,571 comments) says:

    The NZ Herald staff are dominated by arrogant left-wing twits.

    And you have to wonder whether McCarthy lifted her comments?

    Peter Snell hasn’t lived in New Zealand for decades. It’s a bit like a Kiwi telling Britain what its flag should be. I’m not sure sports people should decide the national flag. Its one thing to bludge hundreds of millions off citizens for stadiums and fulltime training and tours, quite another to decide a national emblem.

    As for the ploy about the NZ flag being similar to Australia’s, so what? Do you think world citizens will know or care about any new NZ flag any more than they know or care about the flag of El Salvador, or Paraguay, or Botswana, or Lichenstein, or East Timor, or Kirabati?

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  27. Positan (383 comments) says:

    Media people used to report the news – and were respected for it.

    Now they try to make the news – losing all trace of their former credibility.

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  28. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    The question was rhetorical. Tapu Misa is a Global Socialist. She doesn’t believe in countries, she believes in world government and that there should only ever be one real flag and one anthem. (But she won’t say that of course.)

    Ah, I see.

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  29. Pete George (22,780 comments) says:

    Ah, Ryan, but do you see what flag and anthem she is accused of believing in? (He won’t say of course).

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  30. mavxp (493 comments) says:

    Our flag may have meant something slightly different to NZ people 100 years ago, but I doubt it was very different from how we feel today. It is over to us to connect with the meaning of it as it is relevant to us. What it represented at the time is still relevant to us today.

    The Union flag represents the union of three european peoples in one nation. The end of centuries of warfare between English, Scots, Welsh and Irish (the latter didnt really fare well until independence, but nevermind for now – focus on the idealism). It is a good symbol of how our ancestors intended to come together and became the melting pot of British people, of which we in NZ and Australia are some of the best examples of that melting pot being a success. I have English, Irish, Welsh and Scottish blood in me, catholic and protestant. I also have Jewish and French to add to the colonial mix.

    The southern cross represents our location, but equally the union of British and Pacific peoples (Maori originally, Polynesian recently) and the stars that guided them here, and latter immigrant peoples (Asian mostly) who chose to move here. Many NZers share European and Maori blood and heritage. Increasingly there will be mixed asian-european-maori-polynesian peoples. The joining together of different peoples is something our flag represented once, and should still represent for us today.

    It’s our story, and what we choose to make of it.

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  31. minto57 (197 comments) says:

    New flag for the multicultural society we have become.
    Multcultralism is myth mutighetoism is more like it ,aliens who have no attachment to new zealand or the flag ,do not want speak english and for the good part are carpet baggers looking to the future when they can depart.

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  32. backster (2,076 comments) says:

    Mostly a bunch of socialists working for a socialist newspaper.How come you miss out Barry Soper?. The views of the RSA boss , the recent V.C winner, and Joe Sixpack from the Wanganui Cosmopolitan Club would carry more weight with me.

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  33. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    That lot are simply a bunch of wankers – except Hopkins.

    Have these people got nothing better to do in their lives than to pontificate on the flag. They must live bloody boring lives.

    Now please excuse me – I have far more important things to do – Im going out o watch my lawn grow.

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  34. 3-coil (1,200 comments) says:

    Re Noelle McCarthy dribbling on about the Canadian flag…I’m sure I’ve read that somewhere else before (perhaps in Witi Ihimaera’s “The Trowenna Sea”?

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  35. Fale Andrew Lesa (473 comments) says:

    I wouldn’t worry too much about these sweeping changes, its been a long time since New Zealand was engaged in civil warfare…

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  36. kowtow (7,591 comments) says:

    A few posters have said NZ is “multicultural’. I dont think so. Multiracial perhaps but not multicultural.

    And if like I’ve read in the crap that passes for “journalism” that multicultural means you can get a kebab now instead of a pie ,that doesn’t count.

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  37. camrun (49 comments) says:

    I hardly ever leave a comment, but this issue has got me fired up. Just a couple of points I want to make:

    1) I thought the NZ Herald was a NEWSpaper, they lost my subscription today after two days of trying to create and shape public debate on the front page. Save opinion for columns and the editorial, give me the f***ing news, and let people form their own views!!!

    2) The argument, “it’s time for a change” really annoys me. The flag is not your summer wardrobe or hairstyle, it’s a century-old national symbol that means a lot to generations of Kiwis.

    3) Same goes for the argument that the flag does not represent New Zealand (it does), and even if it didn’t, how many national flags do? Even if the answer is “most of them”, how is the Silver Fern or the Maori Party logo more representative?

    4) For people who are worried that the New Zealand flag gets confused for the Australian one, get over your own insecurities. WE know that we are a seperate nation and what makes us unique. How many foreigners learnt everything they know about NZ from LOTR anyway? If you encounter people mistaking us for Australia or Australians, just use the opportunity to enlighten them.

    5) Finally, to those who believe a new flag will provide ‘national unity’ (whatever that is), I think our differences and similarities go slightly deeper than a flag. Someone once said a nation is a group of people with a shared delusion of a common history and a common hatred of its neighbours (paraphrased). If anything, as proven by comments on the flag debate, this issue had created division, not unity, as will a change in flag.

    I encourage a debate of the issue, and this is just my contribution. I don’t actually care if anyone reads this essay-rant, I simply feel better for unloading somewhere. (Cheers KiwiBlog)!!!

    P.S. I’m not some grumpy old ‘traditionalist’ (although it sounds like it)!!! I’m just a 20-year-old kid who doesn’t see the point in change for the sake of change or the need to fix something that isn’t broken.

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  38. Flashman (184 comments) says:

    Change the flag???

    What a load of platitudinous Wellington-chattering-class feel-good crap!

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  39. Dazzaman (1,123 comments) says:

    The current flag is good, let the Aussies change theirs!

    If we really need to change ours, a referendum deciding that we should/should not change it is the only course. As for designs….anything but the silver fern on black! And that should probably go to vote also!!

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  40. aardvark (417 comments) says:

    Hey, I suggested we get a new flag before the MSM — way back on Wednesday. I even suggested that Maori would end up claiming royalties on its design.

    Oh, how prophetic (in light of the Harawera’s involvement with the Maori flag).

    http://aardvarkforums.co.nz/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3072

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  41. adc (534 comments) says:

    how much would it cost to change the flag?

    I’m thinking at least millions if not tens of millions. Anything with the flag on it would need reprinting. Let alone the consulting costs and design fees (remember the Auckland logo fiasco of a few years back?)

    Don’t we have anything better to spend that money on? Where’s the value for the spend?

    A referendum would double that cost.

    Leave the Stars and Saints (George, Andrew and Patrick) in peace.

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  42. cubit (356 comments) says:

    Noelle MacCarthy likes the Canadian Flag. I am told there are lots of them in Canada – Noelle, go, enjoy

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  43. bazzarra (37 comments) says:

    Politics aside, our present flag is uninspired and similar to many other countries which incorporate the Union Jack. In the manner of Canada and Japan’s strong designs I have long been a supporter of Hundertwasser’s Koru.

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  44. Steve (4,492 comments) says:

    When the Flag is changed it will be the Silver Fern on Black. It will take time to change.

    The old Diggers who went to many Wars put their lives’ on the line so we could have an island called New Zealand.
    Don’t take that away from them, they did something that most are not asked to do today. They did it for children and grandchildren and great grandchildren.

    Many have changed the Flag, most to change just for a change. The Silver Fern is just a fern; well the Maple leaf is just a maple leaf. Tribal warfare, signals we are here.
    Give it a bit more time, that Silver Fern is not just Sport (which is Tribal conflict) the fern is recognised as New Zealand.
    Lucky you live in New Zealand huh?

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  45. John Ansell (861 comments) says:

    I agree about a referendum.

    A self-selecting sample on Close Up called it much more closely than I expected:

    38% for current flag.
    37% for silver fern flag.
    9% for the United Tribes flag
    6% for the Maori flag
    10% for some other new flag.

    That’s 38% for status quo and 62% for change.

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  46. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Self selecting is correct. 62% of the troglodytic wet liberals who still watch Close Up in the mistaken belief it has something relevant to offer. Television, newspapers, TV One TV3 Close Up are all organs run by the same brain dead statists as listed above and provoked so much contempt here on Kiwiblog.

    Its not them you need to convince and as I said before, promoting their opinions as a reason why we should perhaps modify our own is a completely wrong path to go down. Knowing those arseholes are for it just makes me more against it.

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  47. John Ansell (861 comments) says:

    I agree, Redbaiter, that poll was far from scientific, probably a long way from correct, and possibly even the exact opposite of the real public mood (as far as the ‘for’ and ‘againsts’ are concerned).

    But I think we can take something from this sampling of 12,000 viewers.

    It seemed to me it was a strong indication that when alternative designs are considered, the silver fern is likely to be far and away the most preferred.

    Which fern, however, would need to be discussed.

    Personally, I’d vote to keep the current flag rather than opt for the All Blacks ‘set of steak knives’ logo that was used last night to represent the silver fern.

    I’m sure that sooner or later there’ll be a referendum asking New Zealanders to choose between the blue ensign flag and a design featuring the silver fern.

    It will certainly happen if we become a republic.

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  48. BlairM (2,286 comments) says:

    I like the current flag.

    That’s all the argument I am going to offer, because that’s about how important the issue is.

    I’ve always thought the Silver Fern looked like something out of 1920s Italy…

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