EFTPOS in Destiny Churches
March 4th, 2010 at 8:54 am by David FarrarThe Herald reports:
New revelations have emerged of the inner workings of Destiny Church, including claims of eftpos terminals being used to take collections, men-only church meetings, and numerous tithing nightmares.
Former churchgoers contacted the Herald after revelations that dozens of members walked out of the Brisbane branch of the church on Sunday in support of Pastor Andrew Stock, who resigned from Destiny over a recently introduced covenant that clashed with his beliefs.
One man said the church was a “cash cult” and he was “not happy with the fact they had eftpos machines in the middle of the church”.
Another described the church as “Destiny Bank”.
And essentially that is what it is. A make money scheme for Arch Bishop Brian.
March 4th, 2010 at 9:02 am
For some reason the words of L Ron Hubbard come to mind- “The way to make a million dollars is to start a religion.”
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:04 am
I’m not too sure about that. He is expanding the church properties, and wanting to make a tv show.
This stuff is not cheap, and I’d say this is one of the reasons for monetary demands on church members.
I wonder, who actually owns church property? If Mr Tamaki were to shut down the church, would the assets be sold and proceeds distributed back to church members?
Lets face it, Brian Tamaki is the destiny church after all. Once he’s gone, the church is gone.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:04 am
Matthew 21:12-16
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:04 am
DPF this is a joke right?
Eftpos machines in church. Of course they have Eftpos machines in church-people don’t carry cash anymore and use Eftpos all the time. So the church has an Eftpos machine so people who want to give,but don’t have any cash in their pockets at the time,can do so.
Eftpos machines can be found in many,many churches. In fact it is very common in medium to large sized churches to have an Eftpos terminal available somewhere. It saves people having to drive by an Eftpos machine on Sunday morning and get out cash and then put it in the offering bag.
Man Dpf you are brilliant on government policy and so forth but on the subject of churches you really don’t have a clue.
[DPF: Sadly Scott it is you who doesn't have a clue with your defence of this charlatan.]
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:09 am
The Bishop worships the golden calf in a grossly obscene way including covering himself and his wife with gaudy expensive jewellery like some tinpot African Dictator. The really obscene part is that he takes from the vulnerable and the poor. But he is a brilliant speaker and is a very skillful businessman at the god business and has taken from the example of the catholic church, the most successful “god business” of them all. His talent is considerable, I just wish it was better directed.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:12 am
Scott, is that so?
I attend occasionally a large and thriving Catholic church in Auckland. My family have been long time members of this parish.
There is not a credit card or eftpos machine on site.
The only hat tip towards modernity is that we do make an automatic payment through direct debit every month. But this is hardly out of the ordinary, and in fact, is preferred because people can make their contributions in an anonymous fashion away from the eyes of other parishoners.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:13 am
Mainstream churches have made provision for automatic payment giving for quite some years. Parish levies to regional and national organisation and centralised payroll services (for clergy stipends etc) are frequently by direct debit.
In Wellington, Snapper terminals in churches would be useful for both collections and access control for church workers and volunteers.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:13 am
I don’t see EFTPOS as a problem. However the apparent disparity between the poor givers and the rick takers is obscene, as is the whole exploiting un-Christian business model.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:14 am
Ok, time to recycle an old joke that seems appropriate now.
A Catholic Bishop, an Anglican Vicar and Brian Tamaki are discussing tithing. They draw a circle in chalk on the pavement below them.
The Catholic Bishop says: “We should take the money and throw it in the air, and whatever lands inside the circle, we give to God.”
The Anglican Vicar says: “No, we should throw it in the air and whatever lands outside the circle we give to God.”
Brian Tamaki says: “No, we throw it in the air; whatever God wants, He keeps!”
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:21 am
He is no different from Mr. Key. They would rather print money than to earn it from a social project.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:24 am
“…eftpos terminals being used to take collections, men-only church meetings, and numerous tithing nightmares……”
David all these things are common in larger ‘gung ho’ charismatic churches. Why many even have ‘women only’ meetings.
Even the adverse comments about poor people being required to tithe ten percent of their wages are misleading. Destiny would argue, with justification, that compared with their previous lives of alcohol and drug dependency, the members and their families are ten times better off with 90% of their wage than they were before with whatever pittance was left for food and clothing.
You have missed the true sign of a cult which is the observation by more than one that members are required to worship Tamaki rather than worship God.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:29 am
Idiots donating to greedy idiots.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:32 am
Hi George-that is the Catholics for you. Catholics tend to be very traditional ( I might be tempted to say old fashioned) on such matters.
But again – what is the difference between stopping off at the money machine on a Sunday morning to get cash to then put in the offering bag at church or instead using an Eftpos machine at the church to give your offering?
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:32 am
dare i ask what the homophobes were doing having all men meetings? did they take place at the destiny church sauna?
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:33 am
Scott, apologies for my assumption that you are a member of Brians flock. I didn’t mean to insult you.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:35 am
people ‘tithing’ (or guilt based donating) to magic men in the sky, isn’t mythology grand!
Maybe i should reintroduce the church of Zeus, he’s not had much love since Jeebus showed up and stole all the the fun bits of every other religion, so he’s probably due a come back (or maybe Thor? he at least has a comic book already). that way i can be as rich as Brian (not the Messiah, just a very naughty boy) Tamaki.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:41 am
@Grendel
I’m thinking Cult of Cthulhu. He’s local (island off NZ according to Lovecraft), the theological challenge of explaining evil becomes straightforward (Cthulhu wants to destroy us) & if you’re going to have a madeup God, why not the one who can give out the biggest whippin’ to the rest.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:41 am
George Patton….your joke sums it up well..excellent.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:41 am
I guess if the dumbies want to give their money to Destiny or buy cheap rings then who are the rest of us to wail and moan.
I happen to think that programmes like Fairtrade are as bad or even worse – fairtrade is the ultimate scam, but it makes all those matrons paying insane prices for this stuff feel good, so I suppose it does some good. (its called Good Cause Marketing – the same idea thats behind organics and save the environment, etc)
The difference is that fairtrade players do pay taxes – Brian Tamaki doesnt – and that the aspect that needs to be addressed
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:45 am
I have no problem with a church collecting funds using EFTPOS, unless they were placed or located in an intimidating way. The main problem is that you need someone to man a machine.
If you have cash given you need to count that weekly, when I was in New Zealand three people would count the cash up, two on the day and a further one to bank the money later. Then the funds need to be stored on site which meant that we had to have a church safe. EFTPOS would make things simpler (although this would not eliminate the need to process cash offerings).
On many occasions I have headed to church and realized that I have forgotten the money I was planning to give which means that I have to race and find an ATM (There is no EFTPOS in Ireland).
I would rather a person give money because they are taking god seriously and believe that he wants them to give it rather than give due to emotional appeal. Sometimes us christains are very gullible and waste the cash that god gives us.
As for Brian Tamaki I am not going to make a comment on what is going on because I do not know what is going on. The media is not a court of fact.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 9:56 am
hey people are paying to see their high preist Richard Dawkins here in Wellington at their tabernacle.
I’m pretty sure many of them paid with credit card or eft-pos too.
my problem is poor people using family money and kids going without food and essentials.
Vote:If they’re on a benefit, it is NOT their money but OURS so they have an obligation to get off it asap and spend OUR money wisely.
Giving it to Brian Tamaki doesn’t qualify.
March 4th, 2010 at 10:05 am
Nice post Andrei, was thinking of the exact same piece of scripture. On the assumption god is real I believe he would have a special place in hell for those who exploit those who wish to follow him in his name in such a way as some do (i.e. Brian Tamaki) as it does much unfair damage to his reputation.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 10:10 am
It always amuses me to see socialists criticising Bishop Tamaki’s money collecting when they’re the real masters at scamming people out of their income.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 10:28 am
“And essentially that is what it is. A make money scheme for Arch Bishop Brian.”
Vote:Good to see Destiny adopting the best practices of the established churches, cant understand why there is such an obsession with him though. He is not my cup of tea but he seems to do some good work with some difficult clientel and I doubt his income is too dissimilar from the huge salaries some other charitable organisations have for their bosses.
March 4th, 2010 at 10:45 am
Pongo – i agree with you. If the people who joined Destiny had not in fact joined, they would just join some other church. Followers like to be led around. Why the obsession with Tamaki?
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 10:56 am
How does Bish Brian’s tithing program and the demanding of money with menaces differ from the government’s use of the IRD?
Of course Bish Brian’s setup is corrupt and unjust.
As I said — how does this *really* differ from the way we’re governed and taxed?
“And the lord (PM) said unto his disciples, take thou taxpayer-funded credit cards out and spend upon thyself
And woe betide any disciple that dares to question the word of the party and vote on behalf of their electorate for this be the work of Satan and they shall be cast out into the wilderness.
When the worker who hath been knocked down and smite a devastating blow at his job doth apply for ACC assistance, cast him too into the wilderness for it shall be found that he has a birth defect or pre-existing (albeit unrelated) condition that disqualifies him from feeding at the trough of the taxpayer.
Let not the public enjoy the benefits of night-class education, for that shall sow the seeds of discontent and cause them to rise up against the divine ones. Slash the funding of such things and spend it instead of free Rugby World Cup on TV for all, lest they tire of the opiate that keeps them passive and compliant.”
Politics and faux-religion. Not a lot of difference really.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 11:21 am
Does he accept WINZ quotes?
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 11:25 am
Even though I disagree with Destiny church on just about everything, these attacks are a beat up:
Destiny’s members are young so the church can’t fund its operations by badgering members into changing their will in favour of the church, like the other denominations can. Nor do they have assets built up over many years. So they ask people to give more directly. I still fail to see that Destiny members regard Tamaki any differently than Catholics regard the Pope. If it wasn’t for Destiny’s very conservative moral views, I think the media would be quite happy to leave them alone. Same as the Exclusive Brethren. The media can’t plausibly condemn them just for being conservative so they find a molehill somewhere and try to make a mountain out of it. People making choices you would not make doesn’t mean it’s corrupt, unjust or a cult. The person running the church spending a substantial amount on themselves is not automatically wrong either. He is providing people with something they perceive as a benefit and has as much right to be rewarded for that as Douglas Myers does.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 11:35 am
Nigel, Doug Myers does not use “DOING GOD”S WORK”, to manipulate people into acting in cetain destructive ways, which is the problem with cults.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 11:38 am
The temple of Tamaki is built upon bricks, can be destroyed and rebuilt in three days. The temple of God is built in the heart. People have shown what resides theirs, and there is not much difference.
But I know this man is inspired by the film ’300′ men warriors. Anyone seen it?
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
at the end of the day, destiny church is at the extreme end of christian denominations, using the bible to extract money from their followers.
Put your spin on it how ever you like, Jesus would never ask for money.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 12:38 pm
He doesn’t take it; they give it to him. If he’s peddling a fairytale to get money from dumb people, then so are many other churches. People are free to do what they want with their money and Brian is free to tell them a load of old rubbish in exchange for his videos, new buildings, TV shows and rings. More power to him and hopefully when his followers see the light they may draw a wider conclusion about churches in general.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 12:43 pm
Sheep get shorn.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
Malcolm, I reiterate my claim that this is just like politics….
We’re repeatedly told a fairy tale by consecutive governments (this government’s fairy tale includes claims that we’ll reach parity with Australia — cue Tui’s ad).
People “give” their money freely to the government by way of the IRD. In the case of Destiny the punishment for non-payment is ex-communication. In the case of government it’s imprisonment.
Which sounds fairer?
No, I’m not a supporter of Bish Brian’s “density” church — but then again, I think there are 4 million sheep who get duped at every election too.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
Bruce, you old cynic.
BTW, do you plan to push for Recoverable Proxy in the upcoming MMP referendum?
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
Does anyone know any other church with an eftpos machine?
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
If I had the time I’d love to.
Unfortunately, since I allege that all politics corrupts — I’d rather steer clear of such objectionable influences in my life.
However, if someone else wants to run with it I’ll be glad to give them all the help I can.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 1:43 pm
” Sheep get shorn.”
A Seven Samurai fan??
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 1:47 pm
Matthew 21:12-13 (King James Version)
”And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.”
I have doubts that Tamaki will find his entrance to the kingdom of heaven any less difficult than a camel passing through the eye of a needle.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 1:48 pm
berend “Does anyone know any other church with an eftpos machine?”
LIFE church. Quite simular in a lot of ways to Destiny, but not quite as extreme. However they are very similar in terms of minipulating the gospel to promote the prosperity heresy and fleece the flock.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 1:56 pm
Especially of Kikuchiyo.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
Berend-as I have stated there are many churches with Eftpos machines — many of the Baptist churches have them, many Pentecostal churches have them. The community church up the road has one. It is common to have one because you just make sense to move with the times and recognize most people don’t have cash in their pockets any more.
DPF — well your criticism of destiny church having EFTPOS machines has been shown to be not right. Lots of churches have them.
I absolutely disagree that Brian Tamaki is a charlatan. He believes in what he is doing. You may think he is wrong to do so, but he absolutely believes in what he is doing. He could not lead that many people for so long and be false in his desire to do God’s work. The church has been built on his personal energy and commitment and charismatic leadership.
Again — you may think he is deluded — but he is not knowingly leading people astray. He believes in what he is doing.
I think people should leave destiny church alone. It is a voluntary association of people. They are not funded by the taxpayer. What business is it of the media to continue to focus so negatively? Is it because Tamaki is Maori? Is it because he is a high-profile christian leader?
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
“Again — you may think he is deluded — but he is not knowingly leading people astray. He believes in what he is doing. ”
So did Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and a myriad of other crooks. Add Osama Bin Laden to the list.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
How do you know this? Anyone with a skerrick of knowledge of JC would see that Tamaki is not a christian sort of Christian.
I agree that it is probably the voluntary association of people. I don’t know if he could be deemed to be acting fraudulently (you could say that about other churches too – people that kick the bucket and find that they don’t end up in heaven are hardly in a position to complain.)
In effect aren’t they funded by the taxpayer – operating a business enterprise without paying tax?
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Scott “Again — you may think he is deluded — but he is not knowingly leading people astray”
Actually the Bible says that he is conceited and knows nothing AND he is knowingly leading people astray by teaching them to love money.
1 Tim 6:3-10
Vote:3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
March 4th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Manolo-that’s my point. All of those people believed in what they were doing. Now they were wrong to do so — but they were true believers.
Brian Tamaki — in your estimation may be wrong — but he is not deliberately deceiving people. He could not lead a church with the energy and passion that he does if he was just in it for the money. I just don’t see how that’s possible.
In fact charismatic leaders are almost always true believers. I cannot think of a charismatic leader in history who was not a true believer in his cause.
And to other Christians on this thread please stop quoting Bible verses as an argument. The wider church may be ready to condemn someone like Brian Tamaki. But once again the people I’ve spoken to who understand at first hand the work he has been doing amongst the poor in South Auckland hold him in very high esteem. Before you condemn ask yourself — how much does our church do for the poor? And how many Maori do we have in our church, how many ex-gang leaders, how many people saved from a life of drugs? The destiny church has multitudes of those people.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
Time for me to chime in!
I’ve been watching this with some interest waiting to see how people react to DPF’s comments and well heres mine since everyone seems to be going at it:
It seems very sad that the churches under mr tamaki (not a catholic or anglican so no diocese for him!) have to take money from their members by bringing in eftpos machines, someone earlier made the argument of the person stopping at an atm so as to have money for the giving part of the ceremony. Isn’t that better, the person then is giving what he or she feels is best , what they feel is right rather than having people looking down at them as they have to tell an individual how much they wish to give, effectively telling everyone else in that line, if people are giving cash they won’t have that problem, all coin and note sounds the same. yes @scott many churches do deal with having efptos machines, those generally are because a church runs a charity store or gift shop such as at every cathedral in nz and those that have historic or cultural value, any other ones are just pathetic no matter what denominations they are.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
Scott “And to other Christians on this thread please stop quoting Bible verses as an argument. The wider church may be ready to condemn someone like Brian Tamaki. But once again the people I’ve spoken to who understand at first hand the work he has been doing amongst the poor in South Auckland hold him in very high esteem. Before you condemn ask yourself — how much does our church do for the poor? And how many Maori do we have in our church, how many ex-gang leaders, how many people saved from a life of drugs? The destiny church has multitudes of those people.”
Sorry but that just doesn’t cut it. We should ignore what the Bible teaches just beause he is doing some good deeds in the name of Christ? “Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matt 7:22-23). He may be helping many, but his preaching of love of money is also leading many astray. I do not condeem all his work, but I point to that which is unbiblical and call him on it. If he is truely doing the Lord’s work then the necessary funds will be provided without the need to fleece his flock using heresy and blackmail. (ps I don’t care about eftpos I care about the abuse of scripture).
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
Scott says:
“But once again the people I’ve spoken to who understand at first hand the work he has been doing amongst the poor in South Auckland hold him in very high esteem. Before you condemn ask yourself — how much does our church do for the poor? And how many Maori do we have in our church, how many ex-gang leaders, how many people saved from a life of drugs? The destiny church has multitudes of those people.”
And if he could, Brian would also make the trains run on time…………..
Vote:G
March 4th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
In what? Their own importance?
The problem with Tamaki is that one of his causes is to acquire as many baubles as possible and to have people worship him and give him special privileges.
I agree with MIKMS about donating at church via EFTPOS, it won’t be confidential, they have to say how much they are giving to others (presuming they don’t all operate the EFTPOS themselves).
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
Bishop Brian is doing it all wrong, perhaps a few pokie machines and topless barmaids would work better then an EFTPOS machines.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
“Does anyone know any other church with an eftpos machine?”
No! and noir do I know of any accepting the odd sheep or cart load of oats as baksheesh either. Most Churches and Parsons I know haven’t the intellectual firepower to think it up, and if they did, they probably wouldn’t see it as money!
And what’s wrong with using a Credit Card as well. The whole concept of religion seems to work on a credit type arrangement.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 4:56 pm
Yeah, making them tithe 10% of their income *really* helps the poor — become even poorer!
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
Tamaki, what a freakin thieving bully preying on the weak and vulnerable.
He deserves to go to jail.
Is it just me or does it look like Bri has had a bit of cosmetic work done? Nose, jowls, eyes, possibly cheek bones.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 5:02 pm
Umm isnt this really only the business of members of the Destiny Church? Except may the Charities Commission might have a nosey to see if if it really is a charity and so eligible for tax breaks. Other than that it’s no more relevant to the general public then, say, an RSA fleecing its members with slot machines.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
Wonder how Bri’ has structured his charity business when it comes to property development and investment and what Bri’s personal tax position is? You know, given he is an altruistic benevolent paster and all ( or is that minor deity?)
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
And given Bri’s pleasure dome is on the market, you know, just curious
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
Seems like Bri is desperate for cash…
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
maybe his surgeon has put rates up v.v. risk liability of working on a direct descendant of god and all
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
Maybe something in that expat. Unless his tithes generated enough cash up front he could be finding his debt servicing prayers are being ignored by his almighty.
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 5:31 pm
I would say that what you said may be a possibility.
Why else would you kill the golden goose today?
Anyone out there know anything they shouldn’t?
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
Apparently TVNZ are making a TV series about Tamaki called
The Wadfather.
and they are using “Woke Up This Morning” as the opening theme music:
You woke up this morning
Got yourself a gun,
Your mama always said you’d be
The Chosen One.
She said: You’re one in a million
You’ve got to burn to shine,
But you were born under a bad sign,
With a blue moon in your eyes.
When you woke up this morning
All that love had gone,
Your Papa never told you
About right and wrong.
But you’re, but you’re looking good, baby,
I believe that you’re feeling fine, (shame about it),
Born under a bad sign
With a blue moon in your eyes.
Woke up this morning
Woke up this morning
Woke up this morning
You wanna be the Chosen One.
Woke up this morning
Vote:Woke up this morning
Woke up this morning
Got yourself a gun.
Got yourself a gun.
Got yourself a gun.
March 4th, 2010 at 6:05 pm
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, thanks
Vote:March 4th, 2010 at 7:05 pm
IMO it is financial Dawinism. Cleaning the financial gene pool of the paritioners who are to stupid to recognise a conman when they see one.
Vote:March 5th, 2010 at 8:51 am
When a Christian is persecuted for their faith they will generally take it that they are following Gods will. If your church is critised in the media then it MAY be because you are following god’s will. This is what many people at Destiny will be thinking. When churches are persecuted they often become a lot stronger.
As I said earlier I can not comment on Destiny as I really do not know what is going on. The media is not a court of fact.
Vote:March 5th, 2010 at 6:46 pm
Well, I certainly don’t need the media to tell me or show me he is a slime-ball.
Just one look is enough.
Vote:March 5th, 2010 at 7:16 pm
Hell yes. I mean the turd still uses Brylcream FFS. YUK!!
Vote:March 6th, 2010 at 1:29 am
Just watched the Wadfather (as in wad of money) on Close-up.
The first thing I thought was thank God the Walrus did not interview him.
“Now look here Brian Tamaki, EFTPos machines in the church, some people would say that is going a little too far.”
Yeah, that other guy has promise, not quite up to Paul Henry’s standards but at least he has some balls and doesn’t try to turn the whole interview into a mediation as the Walrus does.
As for the walking Maori oil-field hey, you got it straight from the Wadfather, it is ten percent to get into Heaven now!
Could the guy be any more creepy?
Destiny Church = Epic Fail.
On so many levels.
Vote: