The million dollar bishop
The Herald reports:
BRIAN TAMAKI’S INCOME:
$950,000 to $1.1 million* Salary from Destiny Auckland: $200,000
* Salary from Destiny Rotorua: $148,500
* Pastors’ tithes: $100,000
* Speaking engagements: $150,000
* First Fruits: $350,000 to $500,000Extras
* Profits of messages sold at
Destiny Church pay for $500,000 boat
* All 20 Destiny Church branches are encouraged to give at least $1000 to buy gifts for celebrations, including birthday, Christmas Day, anniversaries and Father’s Day.
Purely from a business point of view, you have to admire the set-up. Basically Arch-Bishop Brian has combined God and Amway to make himself rich.
I wonder how he decided on God to be his commodity?
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Tags: Brian Tamaki, Destiny
March 13th, 2010 at 3:57 pm
Ha, I was pondering that myself after reading the article.
Did Bish’ Bri’, go on a fact finding ‘mission’ to the US and check out how the evangelical churches ran their businesses?
Did he buy a ‘franchise’ model?
Did he get a evangelical consultant to help him set up the Destiny structure?
How did he decide on the Destiny target demographic?
March 13th, 2010 at 3:58 pm
I wonder how he decided on God to be his commodity?
That’s easy TAX BREAKS.
March 13th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
Doug, the church trust itself might be a registered charity and therefore be non-taxable but there’s no tax breaks I know of for Tamaki himself as a pastor
March 13th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
he’s a shyster conning people to pay for the ‘privelge’ of being associated with him
whatever good he and his church has done has long been surpassed by this behaviour of also fiilching the poor for his own ends
March 13th, 2010 at 4:38 pm
Gavin… since so much of the Bish’s income is in the form of “gifts” from his followers, he pays no tax on *that* money.
Gifted income does not create a tax liability for the recipient, only the giver (if their total giving exceeds (from memory) $26K per annum).
And of course if the church itself gives a gift to Bish Brian then I would assume that its status as a registered charity would have an effect on the tax liabilities involved as well.
You have to admit – it’s a brilliant way to dodge tax.
Now what the IRD should be doing is what they’ve already done with the trading banks and are in the process of doing with Qantas, TV3, Toll Holdings, Telstra etc — and simply decide that he’s entered an arrangement with the primary purpose of avoiding tax. They can then hit him with huge interest, penatlies and an assessed tax liability.
If they don’t — one has to ask “why the hell not?”
Is it that even the IRD is scared of God?
March 13th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
Be not to hasty to trust or admire the teachers of morality: they discourse like angles but they live like men.
Samuel Johnson
March 13th, 2010 at 5:08 pm
How’d he decide? Easy! People want half a dozen peer reviewed blind tests to back up the claim that one washing powder washes whiter than another, but when it comes to religion they put aside scepticism. Thus if you’re told God wants you to empty your wallet into Bishop Brian’s coffers (or the Pope’s, come to that) then there’s hardly a rational base for an alternate argument.
Reminds me of my friend, a handsome, erudite, church-going Samoan sportsman by the name of Semi. I used to (only half-jokingly) encourage him claim distant relationship to a chap by the name of Crefolo, and adopt the family monicker- thus becoming “Semi A. Dollar”.
I reasoned that if we bought a bit of televangelical time on one of the TV channels, we wouldn’t have to ask overtly for tithes, all he’d need to do is keep saying his name to the brainwashed masses
March 13th, 2010 at 5:08 pm
I wonder if “Bishop” Brian read one of L. Ron Hubbard’s early schlocky sci-fi novels, the one in which one of the characters muses that the best way to get rich quick is to invent a religion. (And gee, what did LRH do a few years later? Hmmm.)
BB just took a slightly different tack – taking an existing religion and creating an offshoot.
March 13th, 2010 at 5:10 pm
One of his “role models” is another self-appointed Bishop who denies he preaches the “prosperity gospel” – TD Jakes. His Wikipedia profile makes interesting reading, and there are plenty of similarities, especially in the nature of the respective Bishops’ commercial undertakings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._D._Jakes
March 13th, 2010 at 5:43 pm
it is sad that so many people see this con man (and his wife) as their spiritual saviour .. if he is genuinely interested in mentoring out of control males and saving families from themselves then join the Sallies or men’s line or whatever.
I wouldn’t trust this prick as far as I could throw his Harley.
March 13th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
What is the size of Brian’s tithe – $ 95,000 to $ 101,000, and to who does he pay that, and before or after tax?
March 13th, 2010 at 5:46 pm
The more I here about this guy the more I like him.. a true capitalist.
The AMWAY Bishop.. priceless.
Mind you he’e coursing a lot of discontent and envy among us nonbeliever’s.. CHRIST.
March 13th, 2010 at 5:53 pm
I tell ya, the Wadfather is a walkin’ talkin’ Maori oil field.
March 13th, 2010 at 6:16 pm
I have endured the prosperity gospel and it’s destructive divisive teachings, it is an appalling distortion of Christianity and it has caused huge damage to many Christian people who dared to oppose it.
There is an awful long haul for the church to regain any credibility in NZ, though people like Michael Jones may be able to earn some respect.
March 13th, 2010 at 6:50 pm
This is quite interesting / serious I hope and IRD and the Charities Commission step in
1. A Registered Charity under the new rules cannot be conducted for “private purpose”
2. Putting income through the church due to its zero tax charities status means the net income (including lack of GST liabilities etc..) is far more substantial than Brian Tamaki Limited would be. Therefore given the scope of their activities strong arguments could be made that it is a tax avoidance arrangement as mention above.
3. If the Church as a charity is making payments to Brian Tamaki and giving gifts etc… then its status should be revoked as it very clearly creates that private purpose scenario.
March 13th, 2010 at 7:13 pm
I say good on him. A fool and his or her money are soon parted.
The parisoners get better value for money from Brian Tamaki than they ever would have investing in Hanover/Allied or Strategic Finance.
March 13th, 2010 at 7:14 pm
I think Tamaki has inherited the entrepreneurial flair that others in his family have shown. Unfortunately instead of forming a legitimate commercial enterprise he has taken to fleecing the simple – very effectively. Very sad really
March 13th, 2010 at 7:20 pm
Excellent points Shunda. Churches such as Destiny do enormous damage to Christianity as a whole, and are harmful to the credibility of the church in general. And yet there are countless churches of many denominations serving their communities selflessly and often anonymously. These churches do not deserve the bad rap that a crowd such as Destiny ignites.
As a Christian, I’m loath to criticise other Christian churches or denominations; disunity is another enemy of Christianity. However it’s hard to maintain a dignified silence when figures such as today’s are bandied around. Tamaki’s lifestyle is far from Christ-like, in my humble and considered opinion.
March 13th, 2010 at 7:32 pm
I do not quite see the average Anglican or Catholic Bishop getting $3000 a pop. If this were the case the Pope would be one of the richest guys on Earth, as he would be worth $50,000 at least for each appearance. He could easily charge tourists 20 Euros each to visit St Peters.
March 13th, 2010 at 7:36 pm
aardvark, ity’s a long time since I studied and practised tax law, but what’s going on here smells more like taxable arrangements rather than gifts as you describe, it would be interesting to know if the IRD are all over him
March 13th, 2010 at 7:43 pm
Cactus Kate
Absolutely right.
Labour and National have spent over 200 billion of taxpayer bucks fighting crime. violence and poverty in NZ over the past eighty years and they have succeeded in doing fuck all.
Along comes Brian Tamaki who I used to play rugby and get into fights with (as a teenager) and for a Harley, a boat and a big house in Maraetai he has managed to turn around shitloads of no hopers. Good on him I say.
I dont go to church but I know an achiever from a wanker, the wankers are well spudded into the Labour and National parties, they call them troughers.
Correct me if I am wrong but Tamaki has no child molestation, kidnapping or falsifying documents for pecuniary advantage charges against him. No is being brainwashed from what I can see.
If the catholic and anglican ring necks cant pull $3k a gig they must be fucken useless.
March 13th, 2010 at 7:43 pm
Did Bish’ Bri’, go on a fact finding ‘mission’ to the US and check out how the evangelical churches ran their businesses
Actually, he did.
March 13th, 2010 at 7:50 pm
I suppose it depends on whether you consider a brainwashed hoper better off than a free thinking no hoper Deadrightkev.
I think it is generally accepted around the world that CULTS are dangerous.
Look where they have led to in the past.
Jonestown……..Tamakitown.
March 13th, 2010 at 8:07 pm
“As a Christian, I’m loath to criticise other Christian churches or denominations; disunity is another enemy of Christianity. However it’s hard to maintain a dignified silence when figures such as today’s are bandied around. ”
Yes for sure those of the “heresy hunter” persuasion often stir up more trouble than they solve, however there is much in the new testament about identifying pretenders and those not committed to the faith and rejecting them as leaders.
One of the greatest problems in modern Christianity is the “don’t preach against Gods anointed” doctrine promoted by insecure evangelical leaders. There has been a resultant loss of discernment among Christian people and a belief that to speak out is some how engaging in unrighteous judgement. This is not consistent with the new testament scriptures that encourage people to examine those who claim to be leaders and reject those that fall short.
It is about time Christians started demanding a bit of humility and integrity from church leadership, otherwise people like DPF will have to keep doing it for us.
March 13th, 2010 at 8:32 pm
I agree, Shunda.
There is definitely a biblical mandate to holding church leadership accountable in many areas.
However, the “speaking out” against, and discipline of leaders – or any other member of the church, for that matter – is usually (or rather, should be) dealt with discretely by a court of the church, and not thrown out into the public eye for the media to mess about with.
As many others have said, Christians publicly speaking out against other Christians does nothing for the gospel.
On the other hand, discretely holding a fellow Christian to account if they appear to be departing from biblical truth could save their life, and ultimately strengthens the church and the message of the gospel.
March 13th, 2010 at 8:46 pm
Oh FFS!
I’ve just read your screen shot of Tamaki’s website Dave.
“Bishop Brian Tamaki is the physical manifestation of God.
It is inevitable that Satan will attempt to destroy the work of God by speading lies and slander against God’s Annointed Man. As the last days unfold, Bishop Tamaki will undoubtedly come under increasing attack from his enemies.”
Best we keep an eye on Raro deliveries to certain Maraetai mansions.
March 13th, 2010 at 8:53 pm
He’s obviously done something to piss you off. Otherwise I cant see the fascination.
[DPF: I just don't like frauds, and I don't like cults and I don't like his politics]
March 13th, 2010 at 8:59 pm
It’s the plastic surgery that sent me over the edge.
March 13th, 2010 at 9:01 pm
expat, interestingly enough, that website has had its hosting account suspended. There’s nothing there now.
Suggests to me it was a spoof or a hack.
March 13th, 2010 at 9:03 pm
So will the good Bishop eventually end up like this one: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30533
March 13th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
Tamaki is not the only thief, there are many in NZ if you take a look at the charities commission’s website, many so called pastors have huge incomes, I can mention some in Wellington if you like ……….God is just an excuse to fleece the stupid sheep that put too much money in the plate….so they can build fabulous homes etc. for themselves…anyway, bishop my backside…
March 13th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
I was talking to a pastor the other day that felt like he was managing a mental asylum, which in reality is what many churches have become- havens for damaged people that never really get better and only care about their own comfort.
The Gospel is supposed to be something a bit different.
March 13th, 2010 at 9:54 pm
I’m sorry, I must have been sleeping when the Oxford dictionary decided to publish the definition of “theft”.
How on earth is Brian Tamaki a thief? Unless he is taking the income or assets by force, there is no theft. Nor are there any other forms of illegality here.
The fact is that this man asks for more on the podium and his people give more, this is nothing more than money given by free will, no wrong doing what so ever in a realistic view.
The media is blowing this far out of proportion, it is not news to the wise. If the people didn’t give in to Tamaki’s requests for more, there wouldn’t be an issue.
March 13th, 2010 at 9:58 pm
Except, FAL, BB’s “flock” are manipulated, cleverly and by someone who knows what he’s doing, so yes in some ways they give “freely”, but they actually probably have little control over that because they are psychologically manipulated. There are exceptions as the Brisbane Destiny “Church” shows.
March 13th, 2010 at 10:06 pm
True story: the wife of a Destiny Church member whom I know personally was approached in the local supermarket by one of the church’s leadership. This person looked into her trolley then told her “Do you realise, if you didn’t buy chocolate biscuits, you could give more money to the church”.
David in Chch is spot on. Many Destiny attendees are cleverly manipulated; so cleverly that they don’t realise it’s happening. And Helen Clark called the Exclusive Brethren a “weird sect”!!
March 13th, 2010 at 10:08 pm
An observation…. the Pope in the Vatican may sound humble, but he sure aint poor.
Why do we insist that Tamaki be different to all the other enrobed wankers who for thousands of years have held their believers by their balls and wallets for the cause of “salvation”?
A pox on all of them.
March 13th, 2010 at 10:56 pm
A “debate” in the Destiny Church.
Tamaki: I am God.
Free thinker: No you are not.
Tamaki: Yes I am.
Free thinker: Oh no your’e not!
Tamaki: Oh yes I am!
It’s amazing they ever get to do any praying what with all the debates and PIN numbers and tithing and brainwashing.
March 13th, 2010 at 11:06 pm
One fault in your argument Robert. There are no free thinkers in the Destiny Church
March 13th, 2010 at 11:21 pm
Any one fancy setting up a new Church with me?
0800 GIVE NOW
Ground floor opportunity, and not MLM, honest!
Initial equity split will be shared between voting/non voting. Sweet or Pref.
This new concept is very replicate-able, and very Internet friendly.
Nigerian Government approved. Dutch Euro Lottery beneficiary. Singapore Constitution, and Mems and Arts.
Ultimate Holding Company in Grand Cayman. Really good for the AGM’s.
March 14th, 2010 at 12:21 am
Personally, I think guys like Bryers and Petricevic have a lot more to answer for!
March 14th, 2010 at 12:23 am
Robert Black
You are not a free thinker.
Atheist, sure.
But freethinker, no…
March 14th, 2010 at 1:00 am
The Left must love this guy, robbing the poor to give unto himself. At least the EB keep it within their families.
March 14th, 2010 at 1:03 am
Luc:
Agnostic actually.
I just don’t think or believe that HE is God.
Shame on me, I know I be punished after I die for that.
Maybe before.
I’m a slow silly billy like that.
March 14th, 2010 at 1:48 am
” Personally, I think guys like Bryers and Petricevic have a lot more to answer for! ”
At the same time as you give every thieving corrupt socialist politician a free pass, including their sniveling lying acolytes in the great global warming swindle. Utter hypocrite.
March 14th, 2010 at 7:24 am
I have no problem with Tamaki receiving a large income – he runs a very large organisation, after all. I would expect a six figure salary for that. However, most decent churches I know of set the salary of the pastor without his input. It seems like it might be pretty hard to do that in Destiny.
The original Church fathers of the 1st Century were very wise – they had Apostles to guide the church in matters spiritual, and Deacons to look after the material and practical matters. That’s also how the old (open) Brethren churches I attended used to do things. You don’t put the guy in the pulpit in charge of the dosh – ever. Any church that does that is not worth your time.
NZ is a free country, and Tamaki is not committing any crime by being paid so well. But you’re a tool if you go to his church.
March 14th, 2010 at 8:08 am
Ditto Blair. Tamaki is a naughty boy but there are mugs born every day.
The Anglican church is one of the country’s wealthiest institutions yet they are the ones who go on hikois demanding that every body else do their job of looking after the poor. They are the real hypocrites. Destiny members I have spoken to who are from tough backgrounds are far better off with Brian than they would be with the anglicans.
March 14th, 2010 at 8:09 am
BlairM said
Wise words indeed Blair. The role of the pastor is just that; to pastor, to meet the spiritual needs of his flock. Sadly, too many pastors these days get distracted by the commercial opportunities that await them once they develop a “profile”. Having pastored a megachurch is unlikely to win any of them any brownie points on the day that they face their maker though.
March 14th, 2010 at 8:34 am
@BlairM 7:24 am
You wouldn’t want to put Tamaki in charge of the Koolade either.
March 14th, 2010 at 8:36 am
“A fool and his or her money are soon parted.”
The big question is how did they ever get together in the first place.
March 14th, 2010 at 9:18 am
As bent as this guy is, I can’t help thinking that this is probably the way the church has always been since the year dot, maybe not quite as visibly crass and unashamedly moneygrubbing – I think the traditional churches made more effort to keep up the veneer that it’s ultimately about something other than money and power. We should be grateful to be living in the post-christian age, where most people haven’t been brainwashed since birth to believe this stuff, and we can look at religion with clear eyes and judge it for ourselves. Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin Mr Tamaki….
March 14th, 2010 at 9:52 am
Inspired by the Good Bishop I have decided to give up working and instead found my own church.
Only through me can you be saved oh my children!
(Eftpos, Credit card and cash all accepted but no cheques please).
P.S If you become a member of my church you get the added bonus of taking up some excellent offers from my friends in Nigeria via email.
March 14th, 2010 at 10:15 am
One is tempted to call this a huge leap of logic, but, alas, logic and Redbaiter are not constant companions. Far from it, in fact.
RB, I take it you are referring to Bill English, and I have actually called for him to resign and be prosecuted, just as would happen to us mere mortals, card-carrying members of the “masses.”
March 14th, 2010 at 10:25 am
Perhaps the concept of church being about meeting in a particular expensive building and listening to the ramblings of one “man of God” is where the problem lays.
The reality is the position of “pastor” is only mentioned once in the entire bible and even then only in a list of other positions, it was never anything but one part of team based leadership approach.
Funny how the reformation was all about being against having one dude in charge, but all protestant churches seem to love to have little popes running the show.
There is no biblical precedent for the style of church that is now done, it has removed the heart and soul from the gospel and is completely irrelevant to our society.
There is much to be gained from the gospel, a terrible shame it is not preached from the pulpits any more.
March 14th, 2010 at 10:28 am
Yes like Nigeria he is tapping into New Zealands growing market.. Stupidity.
So he can only get bigger. Fool You.
March 14th, 2010 at 10:33 am
Maybe, but like pure communism maybe pure Christianity is an ideal that can never be attained.
Some people will always aspire to lead, and/or to control.
Some people will always seek as many baubles as they can – and use others to get them.
Many people will always want to look to others to lead them.
March 14th, 2010 at 10:43 am
I find it very interesting comparing this with the average Catholic and/or Anglican Bishopry Renumerations which generally don’t do much beyond 50,000 Euros in Europe and are fairly less in NZ, that is though not taking into account the free accomodation courtesy of their location that they generally are entitled to…I wonder whether Mr Tamaki also has ‘free’ Accomodation, Perhaps he charges himself?
March 14th, 2010 at 11:03 am
What the “bishop” is doing is profoundly noble. As we know from verses such as Matthew 19:24, “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
That being the case, we can see that through enriching himself by raking in huge amounts of other people’s money the “bishop” is actually facilitating their passage to Heaven, but at the price of his own mortal soul. It is the theological equivalent of throwing yourself on a hand-grenade to save your buddies.
March 14th, 2010 at 11:16 am
Tamaki, for all he is venal represents a huge Christian movement arising in the South and moving relentlessly Northwards towards and even past the Tenth Parallel North of the Equator.. its a movement of Asians and Africans.
100 years ago Christians were 1% of Nigeria compared to 46% Muslim.. today both religions are equal at about 45%. 100 years ago Africa was 10% Christian, today slightly ahead of Islam at about 46%. Today the US provides the most Christian missionaries, but Sth Korea provides the second largest number.. today the US has the most Christians, but China has the second most and growing fast.
There is a titanic struggle involving billions going on here and the West is largely sitting on the sidelines.. except as Christianity dies in the West its being replaced by Islam. Its the Jamaicans in London or the Maori/PI here who are making the running in the religious stakes.. and like the original Christians they probably aren’t too flash in the societal stakes.
JC
March 14th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
Turning around the lives of dumb horis, what a load of shit, I have meet a few of the destiny hori types and they all share one thing in common, they are as thick as pig shit.
If the bloke wanted to turn the lives of those dumb horis around he would tell them to spend their money on getting an education.
But he will not do that for one good reason, any person with any education would soon work out that it is a cult
March 14th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
as much as I think Bi$hop Brian is a con man, I think his sort used to called snake oil salesmen, if the people get something out of his bullshit then??
March 14th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
If the Bishop is turning the crime rate around, He’s doing more than anyone else in the top tax bracket for the community.
THat heir whose death was reported in the plane crash this morning wasn’t doing that
Yet it was said he was a loss to the community. Why?
No one in the top tax bracket helps the community. Not directly any way.
Americans in the top tax bracket are simply tax dodgers.
March 14th, 2010 at 8:53 pm
wikiriwhis business
What a load of crap. America is full of wealthy benefactors – to name but two; Bill Gates who has donated not far off NZ’s annual GDP to his Gates Foundation and Warren Buffett who similarly has donated hundreds of millions. American history is littered with very wealthy philanthropists (eg Andrew Mellon, the Fords) . I happen to know a number of wealthy Americans (making in the high six figures to low seven figures) and they are incredibly generous to a vast array of charities and to charitable interests of their own choosing. I personally donate what I hope is generous sums to charities and fund a charity of my own that DIRECTLY helps the comunity.
Just because the Hoppers of Pauanui fame chose not be generous doesn’t make all rich people selfish (eg Timaru millionare Alan Hubbard is a prominent philanthropist). Of course lefties like you want the State to force philanthropy on the populace to fund the benefactors of ITS chosing through confisactory taxation. How is Bill Gates choosing with his own money to fight AIDS not as altruistic as the taxes that fund NZ’s open ended welfare entitlement of the sort that has spawned an underclass of violent feral fatherless young men who are over represented in the crime statistics?
And just so I can say that this comment is on topic, I happen to largely agree with David re Brian Tamaki however I will say that almost all religions can be made to seem odd in the eyes of unbelievers. One of the things I have noticed about NZ compared to the US is the amount of hostility (even by commenters on this blog) towards religion and religions. The hysteria over the Brethren was over the top. The sneering judgement directed at the Bible belt in the US and the sweeping generalisations about how and why Americans worship God disturbs me. Tamaki IS a con man there is no doubt in my mind BUT there is a theme underlying the media coverage of his excesses that goes beyond this one man’s megalomania and it goes to the heart of the secular psyche that has become woven into the fabric of modern NZ society – that anyone who worships at anything other than St Andrews on the Terrace in Wellington or the old Anglican cathedrals is some how a religious fanatic not worthy of respect in polite society.
I like America’s broad church view of religion seemingly accepting and allowing to thrive the old mainstream churches, evengelical charismatic mega churches, Moonies, Jews in all their flavours, Mormons and even Rev Wright and his black nationalist ranting. Claiming belief in God and being open about worship is usually in most races in the US a political pplus whilst in NZ is haas become the kiss of death.
March 14th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
[DPF: I just don't like frauds, and I don't like cults and I don't like his politics]
I’m looking forward to holding you to that over parliament (both sides) this year
Inventory and Blair
Wise words indeed Blair. The role of the pastor is just that; to pastor, to meet the spiritual needs of his flock.
My understanding of scripture is that a pastor as one of the five fold ministry (and a gift to the elect) their job is to stir up the gifts in the brethren, so that they pastor and the church grows organically as the family meets each others needs and love one another, as well as the orphans widows and jailed.
The church was never meant to be a holy hour in a holy place with a holy man, that’s churchianity.
March 15th, 2010 at 5:41 am
i must say as an ex destiny memeber of ten …yes ten years ,i do not think that the problem is so much of how much is being tithed but the money management of the tithes and other offerings .For example my family is still in touch with a women who will remain nameless …. was the money operations manager and handled the accounts for destiny church ,and for three privately owned bisnesses that were owned by bishop brian and his wife ps hannah .She left destiny after 17 years
because of the miss management of money by bishop,ps hannah and there personal staff .She felt that there was too much money going in bishop’s direction and not enough going were it needed to go.after she had left she when to a media out let to publish her story and let the truth out about destiny … but when she when to secretly retreive the files they werent there and when destiny was questioned about this ps hannahs P.A gave this comment ….and excuse.. that on her..(the nameless womens) departure from destiny she terminated many files and those detailed files were in there .hmmmm now thats funny..because if I wanted to prove that there was mismanagement with money at destiny ….why would i delete the proff .
But scince i have left destiny i hav put that in the past ,cause i hav my hole life ahead of me …and yes my mother was the solo mother who when to destiny ,who’s story was put on the front page of the new zealand hearld titled ‘after tithing it was a mirical that my kids got feed’…….and p.s bishop the new audi is crap you look like you are going grey and even your own sister left your church
March 15th, 2010 at 9:44 am
Kiwi in America — I think you have hit the nail on the head. Brian Tamaki threatens the secular consensus that is enforced in the public square in New Zealand. Basically it is marginally okay to go to an Anglican Church or whatever that is basically in line with secular progressive values. So for example the “hikoi of hope” was positively covered by the media because it promoted the type of left-wing values that are acceptable in public discourse. However the “Enough Is Enough” march organised by destiny church and other churches was seen as not acceptable because it went against the predominant left-wing values of homosexuality, promiscuous sex and abortion. That’s why Bishop Brian has to be silenced and ridiculed. He is a threat to the godless left-wing establishment that runs this country.
The fact that he is a Maori and that his church attracts a huge amount of Maori men and women is inconvenient, because normally the left love the indigenous people of Aotearoa, but he has to be silenced all the same. There are many testimonies of how people have received Jesus through going to destiny church. How they have changed their lifestyle, reconciled with their partner, become a good father to the kids, got out of drugs and gangs — there are many examples. But that is given no credence whatsoever. Tamaki threatens the godless secular consensus in New Zealand society imposed by godless secular liberals — for that he must be stopped.
Although many Christians like myself are uncomfortable with Tamaki’s lifestyle we need to understand I think that there is a cultural issue here. Maori people want a chief. Tamaki looks like a chief, lives like a chief and behaves like a chief. That is what the Maori people expect culturally. Now if people want to join his church, if they pay $300 for a ring, if they tithe 10% of their income they are doing it of their own free will. There is no illegal activity here. Brian Tamaki receives an income of $1 million a year — now I would be uncomfortable if our pastor was paid anything like that — but that is not a crime.
I still would contend that Brian Tamaki does more to lift many poor people out of poverty in a year, salary, tithing and all, than all the concerned secular liberals on this blog combined will ever do in their lifetimes.
March 15th, 2010 at 2:55 pm
Scott
Whilst I concur about your comments about the secularisation of New Zealand, I believe that much of the good Tamaki has done is undone by the perception of greediness and the cult of personality. Joseph Malloy’s post earlier today (if true) details what my gut has been telling me about Tamaki and Destiny. These antics make it harder for genuine Christians to get on with their lives in NZ without the approbrium that seems to be heaped on them. Tamaki’s antics overshadow any good his ministry does because any sane observer would say that his church could do all this good WITHOUT the boats and flash cars. I travel from NZ to the US on average 3 times a year and one flight Brian Tamaki was on with his entourage who all flew in Business Premier to the US – I’d imagine on the tithepayers dime. Now if his personal lifestyle expenditures are made public for all parishoners to see then they are donating with their eyes wide open. But it would appear that emotional pressure is applied to not only tithe but pay for these expensive vanity items such as pledge rings. It’s just not a good look and it all boils down to that famous Christian acronym WWJD (what would Jesus do). A cursory reading of the New Testament would lead anyone to conclude that his church was not run like this.
March 15th, 2010 at 3:16 pm
Kiwi & Scott
The ring and covenant appears to be manipulation & coercion from what I’ve read.
The role of the five fold is to show/train/release the body into their gifting so that they do the ministry and grow in their personal relationship with God.
As a consequence they do not “Lord it” (nicolations) over the people but assist the Lord in releasing them into their callings and the Holy Spirit takls over from there.
They become less as Jesus becomes more, just as we become less and Jesus becomes more.
Ezekiel 33 & 34 covers this issue with individuals and so called leaders.
The church was never meant to be an institution or standing army but a guerrilla army or virus in operation guided by our Love for one another and with only one hierarchy, The Holy Spirit.
I don’t see that with Destiny in what I read or hear, do you?
March 15th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
Mike
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. The rings look to me like a money making venture cloaked in a shroud of religosity. The Destiny Church is actually a tragedy – the concept was most laudable and my far distant observers view is that it did some good amongst Maori parishoners early on but Tamaki and his inner circle became greedy and power hungry. Compare the incomes and lifestyles of ministers or pastors who head/preach in churches in South Auckland (Destiny’s heartland) with Tamaki and there is no comparison. Some churches are staffed with mostly unpaid volunteers preferring to use offerings/tithes to go to the poor or the ministry. His greed gives the mostly secular mainstream media another chance to effectively say “aren’t Christians just a bunch of greedy manipulative ‘God botherers’ – just look at Destiny and Tamaki”.
March 15th, 2010 at 9:09 pm
did you read ezek 33 & 34 at least the first 20 lines?
March 18th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
Hi guys. Please, please, my friends, do not confuse the events of Destiny ( inc.?) as being representative of Christianity. Destiny is a cult, even to those people who are not religious this can be seen plainly. The Word of God is VERY clear, and Mr Tamaki is going AGAINST it. Get yourselves to an INDEPENDENT bible-believing baptist church and learn the TRUTH that IS Gods’ Word. Just look at Mr Tamaki’s demeanor. He certainly appears to think he is some sort of semi-god. His actions, income and words are a disgrace to Christianity.