No, it isn’t just a money issue. The children of poor Jewish migrants living in NYC ghettos 100 years ago did very well academically. Similarly, Asian migrants to the US despite experiencing considerable discrimination (especially during WWII).

A significant factor here also is intelligence.

“There is a mass of data which shows that the measurement which best predicts how a child will do in later life is not its parents’ income, but its IQ score at the age of 10 or 11. It’s not a perfect correlation – but it’s a far better guide than any of the variables that the NEP report considered, such as class, gender, ethnic or religious group, or whether you went to a private school rather than the local comprehensive.

Around half of the variation between two people’s income and status at work is explained by differences in their IQ. Studies of twins separated at birth and raised in very different families indicate that between 50 and 60 per cent of an individual’s IQ score is down to their genes. The remainder can be affected by how you are brought up. It can be boosted if you are also raised by intelligent parents, or diminished if they don’t provide an environment which is sufficiently stimulating. So smart children, born to smart parents, have a double advantage – which may be why they do so well.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/7113170/Inequality-in-Britain-isnt-down-to-class-but-brains.html

How many 13 year old do you know who don’t push the envelope, want to stay out longer, go out with friends they shouldn’t be with and do other naughty business? Yet CFY think they are being ‘nice’ to these kids by giving them everything on a silver platter. Poor child knows she doesn’t deserve to be yanked from her family in a foreign country, she is used as a pawn by CYF and police, loses respect for all authority and 5 years down the line we start to ask ourselves where did we go wrong??

The sterilisation issue won’t solve jack shit until you solve the root of the problem. The laws of this world are scared shitless that the brown undercalss he describes on his radio show are taking over the country and that’s why they come up with sterilisation – 50 years down the line we will have another tribunal on the ‘strelised generation’ because what was done to them was unfair, they were probably too high to realise what they were doing blah blah…I can just hear it now. NZ loves creating problems. It’s like you strive on stress.

I support http://www.angel-charlene.com

Hey Ben Wil : how many CYFS kids grow up to occupy a jail cell? CYFS is that dysfunctional it’s dangerous to ALL kiwi children.

Actually, I was talking about a whole lot of institutions. Like increases in the number of schools and universities, refuges, libraries, roads, bridges, hospitals, fire stations, ambulances, etc. But yes, CYFS is one such institution, designed to try to protect children from abuse from their families, amongst other briefs. Seems like a worthwhile thing to have in a decent society.

“Legislation and education” have been the method we have been using for the last 40+ years – and they don’t work. More of the same will not work either.

Actually, we’ve been using them since we were cavemen. And that’s why we aren’t cavemen anymore (albeit not the only reason).

And your ’solution’ will, no doubt, be the one that society settles for – a sad indictment of the times we live.

You can always try a more purely christian sub society, if you like. It’s allowed.

If we can’t agree that such things are foundationally EVIL, then I doubt we will agree on much else we may care to debate.

Certainly if you refuse to debate, then there will be no debate. It does seem typical (not atypical, look that word up) amongst people who opt to allow others to choose their beliefs for them, that you opt out of debate.

Once again – good grief, unbelievable!

Believe it, sir. Indeed I find it unbelievable that Kiwiblog has gone so soft that you haven’t encountered lots of people similar views to mine. Perhaps they have been made to feel unwelcome? I’m pretty sure you’ll find a lot of them are highly compatible with views expressed many a time by DPF himself.

We truly are a POST Christian nation if your views are atypical – God help us.

Gawd! What next? Postmodern? Nooooo!

Don’t worry, all this Post stuff won’t last. It’s soooo been done before. Every generation thinks they’re Post. And they are, at the time. But Post-post just sounds dumb so we finally get something new after a while. I’m actually quite glad it was in fashion when I was studying such things, it made me give up pondering the imponderables, something that is notoriously badly paid (unless you can make a religion out of it).

I also expect religion will tick along just fine. It’s been with us for so long, it’s built in, much like homosexuality has, and promiscuity, and unfaithfulness, and abortion (well OK it probably took the form of infanticide in less civilized times), and disrespect for authority. And also those things you called evil which actually were evil. Murder’s been popular for so long that we made a sport out of it and called it war. That is practically the only thing I think has actually become more evil – our sport of war has developed to levels of barbarity the ancients could only have dreamed of. The period immediately before when you claim that society has become shockingly immoral was one in which we took wholesale slaughter to the deepest depths it has ever got to. I hope it never happens again. Our current system of letting most of it occur in the Third World is only better for us, not the world. That one, I don’t know how to stop, or indeed if it will stop.

What kind of “institutions” are you talking about Ben W? Everybody with a clue knows that CYFS is a feminazi run bull dog and the other cess pit feminazi justice system who foolishly claim to act in the child’s best interested is a disgrace beyond measure?

It’s a failed (socialist) experiment, Ben.
“Legislation and education” have been the method we have been using for the last 40+ years – and they don’t work. More of the same will not work either.

Time to go back to what we know does work – I know I live in a fantasy world because this will never happen. And your ‘solution’ will, no doubt, be the one that society settles for – a sad indictment of the times we live.

I feel sorry for Ben in a way as Ben has no solution because it cannot be legislated nor solved with more education can it Ben?

Um, actually I think both of those can help a lot, as they have in the past. Legislation and education. There are other things too, like money put into the right institutions.

Gotta chip in here Kris apologies.

Your ‘interruptions’ are always welcome – no need to apologise, Mike.

If Ben’s views (5:54 pm) are atypical of many/most in society then I really do fear what the next 10-20 years may bring us.
All I can add is, “Beam me up. Scotty.” and “Last one out turn the light off” – although I think the Light went out long ago, and when “He that restraineth” leaves then all hell will literally break loose.

So WHY is our society becoming more ‘evil’?

It’s not.

Good grief! – you have GOT to be kidding.

We observe increasing ….

Several things in your list are not evil in the first place. Promiscuity, unfaithfulness, abortion, lack of respect for authority, homosexuality.

If we can’t agree that such things are foundationally EVIL, then I doubt we will agree on much else we may care to debate.
Once again – good grief, unbelievable!

We truly are a POST Christian nation if your views are atypical – God help us.

So WHY is our society becoming more ‘evil’?

It’s not.

We observe increasing ….

Several things in your list are not evil in the first place. Promiscuity, unfaithfulness, abortion, lack of respect for authority, homosexuality.

The rest: Where is your evidence they are increasing? What society are we talking about? Since when?

But even if they are, I can’t see any necessary link to increased Godlessness and/or education. There could be a hundred other explanations, like rising wealth inequity, more guns available, increased population, changes in technology, law enforcement, rising global temperatures, increased pollen in the air, rising oil prices. Lots and lots of things are statistically linked.

And if you know why, then what is your solution to fix the ills of society?

It’s an extremely long process, that has been taking place for centuries and will continue long after we are both dead. It will have ups and downs, but basically, the answer lies in rising understanding of the causes of social ills, and tweaking or creating institutions to deal with them. It is never-ending, because society is ever-changing due to growth of many things, like population and technology and scarcity. I don’t claim to know the future.

I also don’t claim to have an uber solution, indeed I think such claims are dangerous and foolish, and have done shocking harm at times. This especially includes religion, and one religion in particular stands out for the greatest body count. Have a guess which one? I’ll give you a hint, it’s the one with almost all of the guns and money.

STD’s are world class here in NZ between 14-23 yrs.
and this with all the EDUCATION they have got in the last 5 yrs and are getting.
Chlamydia rules guys, 20% of the female population is running around infecting others.

hello?
So it’s clearly not more education is it?
So that debunks the left/secular we’re all a product of our environment, society has made us this way, or we don’t know enough to make good choices.

Child abuse is on the rise and it is in all sectors, theft is on the rise, downloading of other peoples music is rife throughout society.
So we are a nation of thieves as well.
On another post here people were poo pooing that someone who had committed theft should be delat to harshly as it wasn’t sooo bad in the greater scheme of things.

The reality is from the top down we are a nation of Liars and Thieves as we won’t tell the truth about things.

I feel sorry for Ben in a way as Ben has no solution because it cannot be legislated nor solved with more education can it Ben?

Sorry about the rant but some days I just can’t help let rip.
Must be having a menopausal moment or something .

This voice led Socrates to the very reasoning above by which your deliberately uneducated claims about morality are effortlessly debunked.

So WHY is our society becoming more ‘evil’?
This whole topic is essentially debating what to do with ‘evil’ men, and whether we should sterilise them or some such.

If human philosophy and education are the basis for our morality/values then WHY are all, and I mean ALL, of the social indicators showing that our societal values today are pretty much crap, and are getting worse:

We observe increasing – violence, child abuse (physical and sexual), promiscuity, rape, murder, deceitfulness, unfaithfulness, abortion, lack of respect for any and all forms of authority, homosexuality, sexual perversions (bestiality, incest, sex with minors, etc), etc. – basically everyone making their own rules and there being no objective standards by which to live your life.

Have you a answer as to WHY? – I believe I KNOW why, but I really am interested in your answer on this, Ben.

And if you know why, then what is your solution to fix the ills of society?
[And yes, I have one.]

God as a source of morality was debunked well before Christ was born, by Socrates. He asked the famous question “Is an act pious because the gods love it, or do the gods love it because it is pious?”. It’s fairly clear with a moment’s thought that the latter is the case – God loving something evil would not make it good. He would just then be an evil God. Clearly, things that are good are good whether God loves them or not. I can go along with the possibility that God loves all good things, though.

Socrates was famously put to death for these ideas. Especially objectionable was the inherent monotheism in them. Funny old world eh? He was also especially famous for following his ‘conscience’, which he considered to be all but indistinguishable from his rational mind. This was the very God that the ancient Athenians so hated the sound of, the original ‘imaginary friend’. This voice led Socrates to the very reasoning above by which your deliberately uneducated claims about morality are effortlessly debunked.