Rudman on Easter

April 7th, 2010 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

The best reason I heard over for repealing the shop trading restrictions, is it would deprive Newmarket Business Association CEO Cameron Brewer of a media opportunity!

In Wellington, the restrictions have little impact. Cafes are open. Restaurants are open. You can go to the movies. Lots of food on sale at dairies and garages. Bars are open. It is only a few retailers that are affected, and a bunch of them just open anyway and see the $1,000 fine as a cost of doing business.

Anyway Brian Rudman points out the silliness of the current laws:

On Good Friday and Easter Sunday it was perfectly legal for me to drive across town to the Royal Easter Show, gorge myself ill on candyfloss, and gamble away my money on such so-called games of skill as “Pluck a Duck” and “Flip a Frog”.

But woe betide the supermarket which dared open its doors to sell me a toilet – or bread – roll.

Once again we’ve been through the time that transcends all understanding, the annual Easter trading laws fiasco.

The two days a year when a weekend market on Wellington’s harbourside can open, but a farmers’ market in Hamilton is threatened with a fine of up to $1000 for each stall that opens.

A time when Parnell and Queenstown shops could open, but not their competitors in neighbouring Newmarket and Wanaka.

The law is a mess as it does not in fact help staff have an Easter break with their families, because Easter Saturday and Easter Monday are normal trading days.

And bizarrely if you do work Easter Sunday, it is not a public holiday, so you get paid nothing extra.

The status quo is in fact quite anti-worker. The unions resist any changes mainly because in some regards they are very conservative beats, that resist most changes.

Here’s what I would propose to get same sane laws over Easter:

  1. Declare all four days to be public holidays – Good Friday, Easter Saturday, Ester Day and Easter Monday.
  2. Law states no employee (except essential services) can be forced to work any of the four Easter days.
  3. No restrictions on any store opening
  4. If a store does not open, Any staff normally rostered on for those days of the week, get paid a normal days wages – as for all other public holidays
  5. If a store does open, staff who choose to work get penal rates (generally time and a half) and a day in lieu

This proposal is extremely generous to employees. It gives them two extra days of public holidays, gives them the right to choose to work on all four days (as the moment they have no choice if a store opens), and gives then public holiday pay rates on all four Easter days.

An employee who chooses to work on the four Easter days, would get effectively paid for 10 days – two weeks of income for four days work.

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89 Responses to “Rudman on Easter”

  1. Jeff83 (769 comments) says:

    The argument as I understand it is to give families a time when they almost certainly can be together, like Christmas day. I do see it has some merit and fail to see why retail shops need to open 364 days a year.

    The problems could be fixed better by:
    - making it a blanket rule retail shops can not open, even in tourist designations
    - allow restaurants and cafes to open no matter where they are subject to pay requirements for staff
    - same for entertainment venues,
    - bars can go either way.

    Personally not a big issue, I work in an industry thankfully where we will always close down, but I do think have 3 days in the year where one can not shop is not the end of the world.

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  2. Jeff83 (769 comments) says:

    Want to make one other comment, re “Law states no employee (except essential services) can be forced to work any of the four Easter days. ” Think this is already the case for stat holidays, however if you have ever worked in retail one of the requirements is an agreeement that you will work those days. Whether it is against ones rights employees generally will not kick up a fuss as they want a ‘positive’ relationship with their employer.

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  3. Nigel (506 comments) says:

    Makes sense to me, the current situation is way to messy, it would also put Easter where it should be a 4 day public holiday, which makes it a little less religion specific.
    One tweak though
    Xmas Day/Boxing Day, Easter Friday-Monday. I’d make double time + day in lieu.

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  4. davidp (3,540 comments) says:

    The UN Declaration on Human Rights holds that everyone has the right to freedom of association. I tried to freely associate with some retailers on Friday but the government prevented me from doing so. Downtown Welly was about as exciting as wandering around Pyongyang.

    I’d like to know when National are going to restore this basic human right.

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  5. big bruv (13,199 comments) says:

    “Law states no employee (except essential services) can be forced to work any of the four Easter days.”

    The fatal flaw in your argument.

    You also (it is the same every year) ignore the fact that every time the greedy bastards want this law changed the public come out and say that they are happy with the current state of affairs.

    The public do not want this changed, and as usual, those with the passion to see it changed are the very same people who will NEVER have to work those days.

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  6. JiveKitty (869 comments) says:

    I’d support your proposal. The current laws make little sense to me either.

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  7. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    The problem with that, DPF, is that when shops are open on public holidays, they tend to have days that are far busier than normal, requiring as many staff as possible to be working.

    While no staff member can be required to work a public holiday, I can tell you from experience that there is an expectation for retail staff to be available for these days, and at present there is only 3.5 days per year when a shop cannot open.

    Do we really need to reduce that to 1.5 days? Seriously? Do businesses need that extra 2 days out of 365?

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  8. RRM (9,414 comments) says:

    In before the GOD stuff starts!!! :-)

    +1 vote for DPF proposal…. But I don’t necessarily think the Saturday & Sunday need to be public holidays?

    No more religious veto of citizen’s rights to trade. You respect the sanctity of Easter, if it matters to you.

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  9. big bruv (13,199 comments) says:

    Of course those of you who are so desperate to shop at Easter will support a push to have full trading days on Xmas day and Anzac day?

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  10. Sideoiler (73 comments) says:

    Anzac should be the only day that trading should not take place.

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  11. big bruv (13,199 comments) says:

    Also no allowance made for salaried workers I see.

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  12. toad (3,668 comments) says:

    DPF, I think that you are proposing what could be pretty much a workable solution here. The union objections to Easter trading are based on work-life balance, not because “in some regards they are very conservative beats, that resist most changes.”

    Address that issue, by first making Easter Sunday a public holiday (which is Green Party policy) – and probably making the Saturday a public holiday as well, as you suggest, would make sense – and you address the work-life balance issue which is at the heart of the problem from a union perspective because workers who were required to work those days would at least get a day in lieu to spend with their families.

    You will probably never get those with religious objections to change their position on Easter trading, but those who object from a workers’ rights perspective would likely change their position if this issue were addressed. But all eight of the Bills that have been put up by MPs since the repeal of the Shop Trading Hours Repeal Act have failed to address the work-life balance issue.

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  13. big bruv (13,199 comments) says:

    “Anzac should be the only day that trading should not take place.”

    Why?

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  14. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    I’m a Christian and have absolutely no problem with Easter trading. As RRM says, you respect the sanctity of Easter, if it matters to you.

    As for work-life balance, that’s achieved by a personal commitment to make it happen… not by having laws to legislate for it.

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  15. Graeme Edgeler (3,262 comments) says:

    “Anzac should be the only day that trading should not take place.”

    Why?

    Because it should be illegal for returned servicemen to go to a pub after a dawn service and down a pint to the memory of fallen comrades?

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  16. kiwitoffee (383 comments) says:

    I agree that the law on Easter trading appears to be confused or confusing or even ‘an ass’ as someone has said in the media.

    But what I don’t understand is our national obsession with being able to shop 365 days of the year.

    Having the shops – let’s say all of them, to keep it simple for everyone – closed for three or four days a year around Christmas and Easter, seems to me to be a very good idea, for many reasons.

    Maybe then we can stop shopping and start reflecting on what Easter and Christmas are actually about.

    And for the Godless shopaholics, they can catch their breath, perhaps spend some time with friends and family, or just do nothing.

    There is more to life than mall trawling.

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  17. ben (2,396 comments) says:

    This entire debate is idiotic.

    1. Why do workers need protection from bosses having signed employment contracts that say they will work? If they need protection from rapacious bosses at Easter, why not the other 363 days of the year? And if Easter is so damned precious to some people (and if it is good on you, but please leave the rest of us out of it) why does anybody choose to work in one of the few sectors of the economy – retail – that might operate on Easter Fri and Sun?

    2. What about all the workers who want to work those days and are coercively prevented from doing so, and pay the price in lost wages? Absolutely nobody in that group signed any agreement to that effect. Why is no weight ever given to the views of these people?

    3. Why does anybody feel they have the right to override, without regard to circumstances, the natural right of two consenting adults to write an agreement that says one will provide labour and the other will pay $x for each hour of their effort. This silly idea of one rule for all, regardless of religious or race or circumstance is a guaranteed loser. Actually, socialists, circumstances are not uniform and the vague possibility that somebody somewhere might be told to, you know, HONOUR THE AGREEMENT THEY SIGNED to work is not reason to coerce everybody else (outside the Queenstown area) around to your particular view of things. As always, let consenting adults work out their own way forward and stop writing rules for people you don’t know but pretend to care about.

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  18. RKBee (1,344 comments) says:

    This is when we know most of our MPs are really truely PC socialists… when it comes down to the conscious vote.
    The point is today’s competitive environment small business can’t afford to take day’s off.. for themselves or their business.
    It’s all right for some to say take a day of for the family blur blur.. but they are not the one’s going broke.. they are proberly the one’s that have civil servants jobs that help make the rules but don’t understand the reality.
    If they make trading laws.. then they have to be for everyone with no exemptions for some.. making the Law an ass.

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  19. lofty (1,303 comments) says:

    DPF you say:
    Here’s what I would propose to get same sane laws over Easter:

    Declare all four days to be public holidays – Good Friday, Easter Saturday, Ester Day and Easter Monday.
    Law states no employee (except essential services) can be forced to work any of the four Easter days.
    No restrictions on any store opening
    If a store does not open, Any staff normally rostered on for those days of the week, get paid a normal days wages – as for all other public holidays
    If a store does open, staff who choose to work get penal rates (generally time and a half) and a day in lieu

    mmmm very interesting DPF, what about those employers who provide a service to industry on a 24/365 basis?

    I presume you are promoting extra stats?

    If so, perhaps you would come and assist us to find replacements for those staff who earned extra days in leiu, above and beyond the average 9 they get over a year now, which uis over and above the 4 weeks holiday, not to mention sick leave.

    Better still you could come and explain to our staff that they will have to come back and cover for those who are taking their toil entitlements.

    Ah I know we can employ some more staff to cover those not here due to holidays, toil’s etc…but wait we cannot afford it!!!!!!!!!!

    We have absolutely no problem with working within the law and paying staff bloody good rates, but more stat hols…not for us thanks.

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  20. big bruv (13,199 comments) says:

    Such faux concern for the “workers” who have been denied the chance to work.

    It always makes me laugh at the way so many of my fellow right wingers work themselves into a lather about this small issue yet they remain almost silent about the real problems that face this nation.

    When will one of you be honest enough to admit that the real reason you want everybody else to be forced to work at Easter is so that YOU can shop, pose in a cafe, or eat out.

    Three and half days a year guys, that is all it is, deal with it.

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  21. RRM (9,414 comments) says:

    [Quoting ben]: This entire debate is idiotic.

    1. Why do workers need protection from bosses having signed employment contracts that say they will work? If they need protection from rapacious bosses at Easter, why not the other 363 days of the year? And if Easter is so damned precious to some people (and if it is good on you, but please leave the rest of us out of it) why does anybody choose to work in one of the few sectors of the economy – retail – that might operate on Easter Fri and Sun?
    [/Quote]

    Stat days have been around for a long time and are understood by everybody, and are part of those conditions employer and employee sign up for, so no this debate is not idiotic.

    The only person talking about “protecting employees from rapacious bosses” is you. Calm down bro.

    A lot of people choose to work in retail because it’s work and it beats being on the dole (on many fun-loving levels).

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  22. davidp (3,540 comments) says:

    Simple proposed replacement law:

    1. Get rid of all public holidays. Except Anzac Day, since I think it is important to remember people who have given their life for us.

    2. Increase everyone’s annual leave entitlement by the number of days that used to be public holidays.

    3. People will be happy because they’ll be able to have an extra day off in the summer, rather than a grim winters day in June or October as they’re forced to do now.

    4. Let retailers and other businesses open when they want to.

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  23. Sideoiler (73 comments) says:

    Easter is a religious holiday, why should those that wish to shop or trade be stopped from doing so because of religion.
    @ Graeme You wont find too many servicemen in the pub an Anzac day, but you will struggle to get into an RSA unless you are or were a serviceman.

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  24. davidp (3,540 comments) says:

    RKBee>The point is today’s competitive environment small business can’t afford to take day’s off.. for themselves or their business.

    Record stores are closing down all over the place. Real Groovy in Wellington is hanging on and needs to open at Easter to stay viable. They cop a fine every year for doing so, by Labour Department inspectors who’d prefer people brought music online from iTunes (which is of course open for business 365 days a year, 24 hours a day) and that Real Groovy’s workers were unemployed.

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  25. gravedodger (1,504 comments) says:

    To me probably the saddest facet here is the denial of a sole trader, family business or other entity that has no employment issues and wishes to trade on a day that has no reason to be banned in their belief system, is lumped in with the bunch who for whatever reason are banned from trading. Now we have a problem with “Farmers Markets” and along with the Wanaka/Qtown, Parnell/Ponsonby, Taupo/whatever fiascos and confusion leaving what is actually a total shambles in law. What constitutes an essential service, I spent the entire weekend on call 24/7 for fire and ambulance and that was my commitment to community service and without any pay. Petrol, diesel,milk, bread are they any more essential than water, butter, coffee, tea or ice creams, sweets, beer and wine. It is all so “I know what matters to me” and totally incomprehensible to almost everyone else.
    To so many it is all about convenience/inconvenience, money, days in lieu and to most the religious aspect does not rate one iota. As for family, If that is the compelling argument then let that bunch show a bit more commitment to family values on the other 360 odd days of the year.
    The sheer capriciousness of the prosecutorial aspects as to who gets charged and fined would, if we had access to a real bill of rights, lead to most of the charges to be thrown out on grounds of fairness alone.
    As to Anzac Day, it is only “sacred” for 1/2 a day and means very little to many of those seeking another day off. Before you all leap on me I will take the whole day to remember our war dead and if no one requires my emergency skillset I will enjoy a quiet day of reflection.

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  26. ben (2,396 comments) says:

    The usual excuses from the socialists:

    “But what I don’t understand is our national obsession with being able to shop 365 days of the year.”

    Nobody is making that argument. It is not about another day of shopping per se. It is about freedom from needless coercion and collectivism, and respect for basic rights like freedom to contract and freedom of association and freedom of religion. It is about respect for others’ preferences, however different.

    “perhaps spend some time with friends and family”

    Not all of us have family. Some of us live away from them. Some of us will see them next weekend. For some people, quality time with the family means going to the garden center or the mall. For others it doesn’t. What arrogance to presume you know their preferences better than they do. Again, this has nothing to do with shopping per se. It is about letting people express their own preferences rather than be forced, ultimately at the point of a gun (or at least a $1000 fine), around into yours. Nobody, least of all me, has any right to complain if malls stay closed after a law change because nobody wants to shop on Easter Sunday. But even if that were the case, a law that overrides the natural right of people to contract for services on that day, regardless of their religion or preferences or circumstance, is pernicious and rightly opposed.

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  27. RRM (9,414 comments) says:

    davidp: The structure that public holidays provide is important too.

    My employer closes down for 2-3 weeks over the christmas break; it’s good because all the other businesses we work with (architects, builders, subbies, developers) effectively co-ordinate their holidays with ours. Net result: Everyone gets their big holiday over and done with at the same time, and everyone comes back to work at about the same time allowing projects to be picked up at something like full steam immediately. I believe there is real value in the way this happens.

    If all public holidays were replaced with annual leave entitlement, it would be harder to progress projects because someone important would always be on holiday. That doesn’t always stop the world from spinning, but it can be a pain in the arse…

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  28. peterwn (3,138 comments) says:

    The thing has become a bigger joke because the maximum fine is virtually a licence fee. In such a situation Parliament would normally take the opportunity to boost the fine at a convenient time, for example via a Statutes Amendment Act (which is used for non-contentious tidy-up’s).

    However I suspect that Parliament will neither have the balls to repeal this farce of legislation nor to boost fines, so the status quo is likely to remain indefinitely with only the bite of the fine being progressively diminished by legislation.

    My personal hobbyhorse – A movable Easter should be abolished and replaced by a fixed Easter. At present the NZ Act references the British Act that defines Easter which is in turn based on the Gregorian calendar calculations. This is an arbitrary formula which does not always relate to astronomical reality. I suppose it comes down to whether the Pope would allow NZ Catholic churches to celebrate Easter at a different time from the rest of the Catholic church, similarly with the Anglican Bishops. However there would not be much difficulty for the Churches to celebrate Easter according to the Gregorian Calendar even if it differed from a fixed Easter. As it is, Good Friday is not a public holiday in Italy, with churches holding early evening Good Friday services, presumably leaving it to monasteries and other keen types to do the ‘full monty’ three hour service that day.

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  29. ben (2,396 comments) says:

    RRM: this is not about stat days. Actually unions do try to justify Easter non-trading on bosses forcing their workers. And thanks for the heads up on retail workers’ motivation. Relevance?

    Take your point on co-ordinating holidays between complementary firms – but note that no law is required to achieve that co-ordination. It is certinaly untrue that a one-size-fits-all law is going to be helpful in that sense because the entire economy has no need for such co-ordination.

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  30. kiwitoffee (383 comments) says:

    Ben

    Socialist? Moi? Sorry, you’ve got the wrong person.

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  31. ben (2,396 comments) says:

    kiwitoffee

    heh fair enough. Collectivist, perhaps? That’s what a law that forces everybody (with exceptions for the politically connected) to needlessly conform to one person’s standard is. Either way I don’t see any respect for the individual in Easter trading laws.

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  32. goonix (140 comments) says:

    Can’t wait for the inevitable changes to the law, the current set up is a shambles.

    Celebrate your belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie however you want, but don’t constrain my choices.

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  33. gazzmaniac (2,317 comments) says:

    The public do not want this changed, and as usual, those with the passion to see it changed are the very same people who will NEVER have to work those days.

    I worked Easter (not in retail) and I want the laws changed. My employer is in NSW so I don’t get paid extra either.

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  34. Pete George (22,713 comments) says:

    I don’t really care, I don’t work in retail and I avoid shopping on the statutory sale days. I suspect that retail workers would be happy to have days off on quiet shopping days.

    Why not have it open slather, then we will get Christmas Day Sales – when you can buy what Santa didn’t bring you, up to 50% off the overprice, etc.

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  35. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    Celebrate your belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie however you want

    A really little charmer aren’t you goonix? Being ‘unconstrained’ shouldn’t prevent you from demonstrating a little respect for the beliefs of others.

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  36. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    The fact is, there are few days where family can get together. Xmas and easter are 3 of those days and despite the religious significance, it is still a day to gather, exchange presents and rest.

    Ask anyone who works in a retail store, and for the record, I am one, about working on a public holiday. Sure I get time and a half and a day in lieu, but I miss out on time with my family. Xmas is the worst. We have worked our guts out up to Xmas, have one day to spend with family and then go back for the collective madness that is the boxing day sales.

    Those who you who may want the option to shop, ask yourself this. Can it actually wait for a day or 2? Seriously?

    I know many of you want to go shopping, and guess what! You have 361.5 days a year to do it! Are your time management skills so fucking useless that you can’t deal with the fact the shops are shut?

    Get a grip.

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  37. Pete George (22,713 comments) says:

    The population (much of it) is under the capitalist spell, they’ll run to the shops when the commercial propaganda tells them to. Churches should go with the flow and lease out space to money lenders. They may get a double benefit, one for plate and five for the mall.

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  38. ben (2,396 comments) says:

    I know many of you want to go shopping, and guess what! You have 361.5 days a year to do it! Are your time management skills so fucking useless that you can’t deal with the fact the shops are shut?

    Sigh.

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  39. big bruv (13,199 comments) says:

    Ben is one who obviously cannot manage his time.

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  40. andretti (127 comments) says:

    Lots of Visitors come to the country over easter only to find that NZ is closed,i guess alot go home and tell their friends not to bother to visit NZ full stop.As I own a hotel i guess i will need to charge a surcharge over easter to cover the penal rates (LABOUR COSTS ARE AROUND 30% for hotels))but that will not work as guests will refuse to pay.So i guess its just another loss making 4 days that will cost workers their jobs.
    We have many job seekers looking for work that would gladly work ANY day for normal pay but its against the law for us to employ them so they just remain unemployed.
    I often wonder how many people here who refuse to work on a public holiday then go and stay at a hotel.Bloody hippocrates
    In fact the way i see it if one believes in not working on a public holiday they should not leave home on that day as another person may have to serve them.

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  41. RKBee (1,344 comments) says:

    ben>>You have 361.5 days a year to do it! Are your time management skills so fucking useless that you can’t deal with the fact the shops are shut..

    But all the shops aren’t all shut are they Ben.. that is the point.

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  42. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    The population (much of it) is under the capitalist spell

    Rather be a capitalist swine, than a communist slave or some elitist chardonay socialist.

    If you dont like having to pay for goods and services, then good for you – no one forces you to part with any of your hard earned cash. Although might I suggest you refrain from hiding it in your mattress and instead open an account with a capitalist pig dog bank – your money will be slightly safer.

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  43. ben (2,396 comments) says:

    And Big Bruv you obviously don’t have an argument. What part of “Nobody is making that argument. It is not about another day of shopping per se” is unclear?

    RKBee you are quoting the wrong person. I definitely did not say that.

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  44. Grendel (949 comments) says:

    ah the time of year when nanny bruv comes out and tries to tell others how they should live.

    i;v ebeen in retail and other industries that would open at easter and so have members of my family, and guess what? having friday and sunday off is no great shakes when you still have to work saturday and monday. so for socialists like nanny bruv, they seem to think that 1 day on and 1 day off is a good thing, but of course its because they know better.

    if it was up to the employee and employer and people like Bruv were required to fuck right off as they should then those workers could work 4 days, get more money than normal and then take a 4 day weekend when they want to.

    its what we just did, we ran our business at a convention on easter friday, saturday and sunday and have taken this week off. but according to bruv i should have only been allowed to run my business on only 1 of the 3 best days of the year for my business. but of course he only sits in an office and has no idea.

    the moment government, and interfering pricks like bruv get the fuck out of others lives and let people decide for themselves between them and their employer the better.

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  45. RRM (9,414 comments) says:

    [big bruv]: Ben is one who obviously cannot manage his time.

    I felt like a beer on Friday afternoon. Then I remembered – “oh yeah, that’s right…” Bloody Easter.

    http://i.imgur.com/UjjsJ.jpg

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  46. gazzmaniac (2,317 comments) says:

    Some people actually have to work during the week, and building suppliers (for example) shut at 5 or 6, so it’s a bit difficult to get there during the week to pick up supplies for the long weekend.

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  47. southtop (262 comments) says:

    wow you guys are all over the place just like the law.
    Any law MUST be seen as fair to be workable, the laws around Easter trading are not. e.g. I have an interest in a retail store which is forced to be closed on Good Friday and Easter Sunday HOWEVER on Easter Sunday I could load a large trailer up with goods from my store, drive around 30 minutes to a country school fair (Mapua, estimates of well over 5000 attending this year) and trade for the price of a stall.
    Although i did not attend i am told that Retailers from as far away as Christchurch did trade……Fair?
    Queenstown open, Wanaka not…….fair?
    All any retailer wants is a fair solution, personally i enjoyed the day off, apart from having too much gardening to do.

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  48. Pete George (22,713 comments) says:

    If shops were allowed to open and have sales on Easter Friday would the prices rise again on Sunday?

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  49. Yvette (2,683 comments) says:

    Does anyone know if a $1000 fine for opening to trade illegally is tax deductible, or would the impertinence of trying that on be answered by confiscation of the day’s takings as being the proceeds of a crime?

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  50. arkhad (65 comments) says:

    I see the first best step is to not allow this to be a conscience vote. We are a secular country and the government of the day should simply make a decision. If we don’t like we know what to do!

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  51. ben (2,396 comments) says:

    So the substance of the arguments from the collectivists in favour of a ban on Easter trading is

    a) I’d like 2 extra days with my family, and the entire country should shut down so I can get it. Except Fire Service, which I might need.

    b) people only disagree because they aren’t organised enough to shop another day

    That about it, collectivists?

    Maybe you could go back to, “my religion is better than yours, nah nah nah nah nah”. Worked a treat the first 2000 years.

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  52. minto57 (197 comments) says:

    Its all about me, sod the workers.

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  53. goonix (140 comments) says:

    Don’t be too precious krazykiwi. Rest assured that in the afterlife your ‘soul’ will go to a magical place while mine will be deep in the depths of hell. I’m terribly scared. ;)

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  54. ben (2,396 comments) says:

    Minto57, why assume workers win from Easter trading bans? What about all those who are happy to work for 1.5x wages and take a day off at a time that suits their own circumstances or their friends & family’s rather than the government’s?

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  55. david (2,531 comments) says:

    Yvette
    Fines are not deductable

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  56. andrei (2,499 comments) says:

    I have got a better idea – why not have your Easter holiday in the last weekend in March with four days as present and all the crap that goes with it like chocolate eggs and bunnies and the whining about the road toll – yadda yadda. Your could call it Workers Spring Break or some such thing.

    And stop polluting our religious festival with your purile childish crap

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  57. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    goonix – I’m not being precious, just asking for a little respect. Refering to Jesus as “cosmic Jewish zombie” is a bit disrespectful IMO.

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  58. Scott (1,693 comments) says:

    I agree with Big bruv and (gulp) Jeff 83. That must be a first Jeff ?

    It seems a shame that people cannot have the shops closed for even a few days a year.

    I have always been of the view that this nation was founded on Christian principles and values and to honour those days, particularly over Easter, is fitting and right.

    I am particularly disappointed with John Key over this issue. As usual National seems to be all about businesses opening 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. They seem to have no other guiding principle.

    Does the National party stand for conservatism? I mean conservatism in the positive sense, of honouring our Judaeo-Christian values? Of honouring our heritage?

    Or is it a party just about business and basically sticking with the Liberal/Progressive agenda of the left-wing of the Labour Party? In other words are they just Labour lite?

    In fact it is the trade unions who are sticking up for shopping restrictions as they are, basically to give their members a well earned rest with their families for those few days.

    Good on the trade unions and respectfully I would like John Key to rethink this issue.

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  59. goonix (140 comments) says:

    krazykiwi – I should give credit for my beautiful prose where it is due: http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a227/lunchmonkey/CosmicJewishZombie.jpg

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  60. Sonny Blount (1,845 comments) says:

    I take around 75 days a year off. This suits my preferred work-life balance. If I so choose I could take 50 days a year or 100 days a year off, I don’t need any government intervention to do this, and their input for 2-3% of those days does not make any significant difference to my overall work-life balance.

    My employer closes down for 2-3 weeks over the christmas break; it’s good because all the other businesses we work with (architects, builders, subbies, developers) effectively co-ordinate their holidays with ours. Net result: Everyone gets their big holiday over and done with at the same time, and everyone comes back to work at about the same time allowing projects to be picked up at something like full steam immediately. I believe there is real value in the way this happens.

    So long as you value over crowded holiday spots and clogged roads to get there.

    I live in Wellington and always stay home on the long weekends and go away on the normal ones.

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  61. southtop (262 comments) says:

    Scott: I think most retailers (maybe not the corporates but certainly the SME’s) dont really give a crap about whether they open or not…………it is about having one rule for all (something that appears to have disappear midway through the last decade).
    see my post above.
    ONE RULE FOR ALL PLEASE

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  62. big bruv (13,199 comments) says:

    Let me list the piss arse reasons given by some as to why we should have 365 day shopping.

    1. “Visitors might not come”…..Utter bullshit

    2. “Workers WANT to work”….They are being paid anyway.

    3. “I wanted a beer on Friday”…..So did I, I went to the fridge and got one.

    4. “It is a religious festival forced on the rest of us”…..Only if you let it, harden up and take no notice of it as I do.

    5. “Some students want the extra money”….then find a job at a place that is open.

    6. “The Law is confusing”….No it is not, it is simple, it is only those with a vested interest who like to make shit up about how “confusing it is”.

    7. “I would rather take the time off at a later date”….and so you can, thanks to Klark we all have four weeks annual leave (that some of us did not want or need) so stop pretending that having to take two and half days off work a year is such an imposition.

    8. ANZAC day is different…..For the purposes of this debate it is most definitely not, your argument is weak and selfish, therefore I would expect all of you to be consistent and push for ANZAC day to be a full trading day.

    9. “Nobody would be forced to work at Easter”………again this is utter crap, the same was said way back when Saturday trading was introduced, the reality is that a lot of people will be forced to work by the very employers who will take the weekend off themselves.

    10. “It’s not fair that Queenstown can trade but Wanaka cannot”…..I agree, close them all down.

    11. “I’ve been in retail and blah, blah, blah (Grendel)………Well dickhead, I am STILL in retail and clearly you do not know what the fuck you are talking about.

    12. “We run our business at a convention” (Grendel)…….I suppose it does not occur to you that the very reason you could run your business at a convention over Easter was because the vast majority of the people were ON HOLIDAY.?…..

    13. “Why should we be forced to take time off when the Government says so”…….I expect to see you making the same comment about ANZAC day and Xmas day, if not, then you are a hypocrite.

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  63. menace (407 comments) says:

    I seen poles for this that had it at pretty much 50 50……..

    Personally i like it that people get to have a day of for once, even if i did forget to buy piss and had to go raid a mates fridge lol.
    We just don’t need bloody shops open all the time etc etc.

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  64. Sonny Blount (1,845 comments) says:

    Also if employers are legislated to pay time and a half on public holidays, landlords should be legislated to charge 1/2 rent for those days and banks 1/2 interest.

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  65. Sonny Blount (1,845 comments) says:

    11. “I’ve been in retail and blah, blah, blah (Grendel)………Well dickhead, I am STILL in retail and clearly you do not know what the fuck you are talking about.

    I’m in retail also and I agree more with Grendel than Bruv.

    I always have more demand for shifts on public holidays paying time and a half than I can supply. My staff choose to work 6 days instead of 5 over the easter week because of the extra pay available.

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  66. Pete George (22,713 comments) says:

    If Ireland can do it….

    A Limerick judge ruled Thursday that the city’s 110 pubs can open April 2 because the city is hosting a major Irish rugby match attracting tens of thousands of visitors. This will be the first time in the history of the Republic of Ireland that pubs anywhere in the country will open on Good Friday.

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  67. ben (2,396 comments) says:

    That it, Bruv? Straw men and generalisation. A few might be forced, against the law, to work, so just ban absolutely everyone regardless?

    May be you should “harden up” and start respecting the right of others to disagree with you, start reading what they actually say, start acknowledging the reasons they give you for why they say it, and recognise a law that forces everybody out of work for a day and which pays no attention to anyone’s circumstances or preferences or beliefs and offers no flexibility on that point is bad law.

    Your personal beliefs are perfectly valid, but the moment you cross the line and force your view on everyone else against their will and regardless of their circumstances and then have the state back you up with force is arrogant and intolerant and deeply selfish.

    Let people conduct themselves according to their own values and everyone can be happy. Don’t demand, ultimately at the point of the state’s gun, 2 days of the year when everyone else has to kowtow to your world view, not unless you’re willing to give 2 days back for each and every set of values and beliefs you’ve trodden on. Just let people be. That is what tolerance is.

    And, once again, it is not about the shopping or the visitors or the workers or the beer or Queenstown.

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  68. gravedodger (1,504 comments) says:

    I only need a shop open for about one hour a week but I sometimes need fuel at position x at 1 am. It is unlikely I will get fuel at x so I plan ahead but for all that is holy if chandrashaker, chan o’rieley, fitzbottom or moi wants to sell goodsl then why are you all getting so exercised.
    All I am asking is that if I wish to trade whose business is it but MINE. Staffing is another matter this is all about freedom to trade.

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  69. Grendel (949 comments) says:

    yep once again, nanny bruv knows best.

    what the moron forgets is that a lot of people still cannot come to the convention becuase they need to work the saturday, becuase for some reason nanny bruv continues to ignore the fact that you don’t get all weekend off, yo ujust get friday and sunday, you can still be required to work the saturday, making it pointless. you still cannot go to a 3 day event, and you cannot even work extra shifts to make more money.

    apparently in his little head, its ok that some places and jobs can open now, but to allow the rest of us to do what we want is bad. nice little statist, tell everyone else how to live and work, and run their business. chump.

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  70. big bruv (13,199 comments) says:

    ben

    Enough with the lies please.

    “and recognise a law that forces everybody out of work for a day ”

    NOBODY is forced out of work for a day, indeed, many are paid to stay at home.

    “and force your view on everyone else against their will”

    I am not forcing my will on anybody, I am arguing for the status quo, it is you and DPF who are trying to force your idealogical wet dream on the vast majority who do NOT want to be forced to work Easter.

    “Let people conduct themselves according to their own values and everyone can be happy.”
    Yeah, all we are saying is give peace a chance…nice woolly line Ben but the reality is different.

    “Don’t demand, ultimately at the point of the state’s gun, 2 days of the year when everyone else has to kowtow to your world view, not unless you’re willing to give 2 days back for each and every set of values and beliefs you’ve trodden on. Just let people be. That is what tolerance is.”

    Again, you are being Hypocritical, if you were consistent you would be demanding 365 day shopping,I expect you to be just as adamant about trading on Xmas and ANZAC day.
    The tolerance you speak of is nice but not realistic, while most small employers would consult their staff about who WANTS to work Easter the big Supermarkets and Warehouse type companies would force their staff to work.

    “And, once again, it is not about the shopping or the visitors or the workers or the beer or Queenstown.”

    Then what the hell is it about Ben?

    I cannot believe you guys get so worked up about three and a half days a year.

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  71. big bruv (13,199 comments) says:

    Wow Grendel!

    I guess I must have made you feel like a right idiot, I would not have thought you needed any help.

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  72. ben (2,396 comments) says:

    Bruv, I believe you are a total fucking idiot. Honestly, if you can’t read the words in a post and respond with any sort of rationality, what’s the point. I’ve said three times now it isn’t about shopping, so what do you do? Talk about shopping. Idiot.

    Obviously, you have no coherent reason for whatever position you’re trying to defend, so this conversation can end.

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  73. big bruv (13,199 comments) says:

    Ben

    It is not my fault if you do not have the ability to make a decent argument for your ’cause’.

    Are you saying it is all about rights?

    If so, you want your rights but are happy to take away the rights of others?

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  74. RKBee (1,344 comments) says:

    Ben@12:58 pm >>RKBee you are quoting the wrong person. I definitely did not say that.

    Your right Ben I alologise .. I was in a rush to go tend to a cusomer in the shop.. it was slightlyrighty@12:42 pm that said.
    You have 361.5 days a year to do it! Are your time management skills so fucking useless that you can’t deal with the fact the shops are shut..

    slightlyrighty>>But all the shops aren’t all shut are they slightlyrighty.. that is the point.

    But I must admit big bruv has made some valid points in my absence.

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  75. PaulL (5,871 comments) says:

    In fact, under DPF’s suggestion, a worker gets 2 weeks pay for working 4 days. I know what I’d do, if I weren’t salaried. Definitely when I was paid by the hour I would have jumped at the chance.

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  76. kiwitoffee (383 comments) says:

    Ben.

    Rightyho. How about this for a compromise? Close all shops for 360-odd days of the year, and let them open for 4 or 5 days a year. Sounds great to me.

    For one thing, it’ll give all those people needlessly driving 4WD land leviathons a reason to use the boot for groceries.

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  77. Grendel (949 comments) says:

    bruv all you make me feel is sad that you need the government to tell you when to take a holiday, becuase you are incapable of asking your boss for time off, and think that one day off, one day on, and one day off is ‘spending time with family”. maybe when you get big boy pants you will be able to work out that working 2 out of 4 days is not that good, and that working 4 days for 5 days pays and 2 days in lieu, so you can get more money and take a 4 day weekend when you want to is better. hell my mother on the DPB could work that out when she worked at Shell, why can’t statist bruv?

    So explain if you can why its ok for a petrol station attendant to work easter sunday, where i can buy a coke, a pie, magazine etc, but not a dairy or a super market who sell the same thing?

    or why its vitally important for someone at the warehouse to have to sit at home on easter friday and sunday, but work saturday, all so they can get some time with family. but its fine if a cop or petrol station employee has to work?

    go on, try.

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  78. big bruv (13,199 comments) says:

    Grendel

    You really are a sucker for punishment,

    Ok, now listen carefully, to save you any further embarrassment, I shall say this only once.

    “becuase you are incapable of asking your boss for time off, and think that one day off, one day on, and one day off is ’spending time with family”. maybe when you get big boy pants you will be able to work out that working 2 out of 4 days is not that good, and that working 4 days for 5 days pays and 2 days in lieu, so you can get more money and take a 4 day weekend when you want to is better. hell my mother on the DPB could work that out when she worked at Shell, why can’t statist bruv?”

    First of, I do not have to ask anybody for time off, secondly, a high percentage of Kiwis still have the weekend off, so for you to suggest that all those who enjoy Good Friday and Easter Sunday have to work the Saturday and the Monday shows that you are either a liar or an idiot, which one is it?

    “So explain if you can why its ok for a petrol station attendant to work easter sunday, where i can buy a coke, a pie, magazine etc, but not a dairy or a super market who sell the same thing?”

    In case you have not noticed those who are employed to work in service stations are already working over the Easter break, what you and the rest of the 365 day traders are pushing is a change to make everybody work, do try and keep up.

    “or why its vitally important for someone at the warehouse to have to sit at home on easter friday and sunday, but work saturday, all so they can get some time with family. but its fine if a cop or petrol station employee has to work?

    You do make me laugh, are you really suggesting that the Warehouse employee’s are all sitting at home crying into the beer they cannot buy about being paid to stay home for the day?

    And your comments about the cops…..just bloody stupid.

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  79. Grendel (949 comments) says:

    so no answer then? just rhetoric? no surprises there. even nanny bruv cannot defend the indefensible.

    I’ll ask again slower just so you can understand.

    why is it ok for the petrol station to open, but the dairy who sells a lot of the same things cannot?

    i know that petrol stations already open, what i am asking you is if its ok for the petrol station to open so they can sell me a pie, why is the dairy not allowed?

    do you think you understand the question? or do you need someone to draw a picture in crayon.

    i also figured you would have no response about the cops. one of the things you lot bleat about in your defense of requiring people to not work is so that they can spend some time with their family. so explain why its vital that a warehouse employee spends time with their family (but not two days in a row), and the cop or petrol station attendant cannot?

    since you are so keen on telling people when they cannot work, surely you must have an answer? or is it as illogical as the rest of your argument?

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  80. ben (2,396 comments) says:

    Bruv, now I get it. You’re a retailer.

    You work hard 361 days of the year. You like time off at Easter, and you’re not quite organised enough to keep the shop open when you’re not there. You’ll be damned if your competitors are going to take a sale off you.

    So you’re more than happy to have the government force your competitors to close over Easter as you take your hard-earned day off.

    Right?

    That’s my guess for what’s really going on. You certainly haven’t been able to make a sensible case against Easter trading. Time you came clean methinks.

    Two things. One, the government is protecting you from competition. Good for you, bad for everyone else. You’re much like those companies that lobby for protection from Chinese imports. At its base, all protection is thuggery.

    Second, you’re a hypocrite. You love competition between your suppliers, you love competition when you buy your groceries and your petrol and your furniture. But you hate competition the minute it is you who is competing, and you’ll defend to the death your “right” to have your competitors shut down over Easter, courtesy of the Dept of Labour.

    Somewhere near the mark, Bruv?

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  81. big bruv (13,199 comments) says:

    Ben

    Nowhere near the mark actually, but hey, so far you have not let facts get in the way of your desire to force everybody to work so you can go shopping or pose outside some trendy Parnell café so I don’t suppose you are going to start now.

    There already is a sensible case for Easter trading, is it the current law, it is only desperadoes such as yourself and greedy or unorganised bastards who want it changed.

    Tell me Ben, would you ever be in a position of being forced to work Easter when you did not want to do so?…..thought not, you would be one of those people who made sure the business was open while you paraded yourself at one of the “must be seen at events” enjoying your time off.
    ———————————————————————————————————————————————–

    Grendel

    Is rhetoric the new word your teacher gave you for the week?

    Dairy’s were open, at least in my part of the world so I am not sure of the point you are trying (desperately and appallingly) to make.
    Again, I have to drag you kicking and screaming back to the current law, it says that Petrol stations can be open 365 days, personally, unless I am driving somewhere long distance I never go near the places at Easter as they are infested by idiots who cannot organise themselves to cope with the supermarkets being closed for two days.

    I see I have embarrassed you into trying to defend your juvenile and idiotic comment re the Police, a little advice, when you are in a hole stop fucking digging, you are only making a bigger fool of yourself.

    Both you and Ben’s argument can be easily summed up, it is this…..”you selfishly want to be able to shop on YOUR holidays”
    You are both happy to see others forced to work so they can serve you.

    No wonder this country is in a mess, no wonder we have such appalling productivity when idiots like you two cannot organise your life around two days off.

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  82. Grendel (949 comments) says:

    still no actual answer, its sad you little man how you cling to the right to tell the rest of us how to live.

    Funny how you assume its becuase i want to shop, maybe its because i want to open, or becuase i recall how annoying it was as a student not being able to work in the holidays becuase fuckers like you decided that no one was allowed a coffee, or maybe its becuase i recall as a kid my mother working christmas day so she could get extra money so we could take some time off when not everyone was around and she was lucky enough to work somewhere that was allowed to open (same principle as easter).

    so if people should just organise themselves around two days off, why are petrol stations allowed to open, if apparently we all have so much time on our hands like you, where we can get organised, why should petrol stations be allowed to open?

    when it all boils down, you are just another dried up old fucking statist, who beleives he knows best when others can and cannot shop, work, and run their business. hurry and go an extinct you pathetic dinosaur.

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  83. ben (2,396 comments) says:

    Bruv

    Nowhere near the mark actually

    What part did I get wrong? You said you work in retail. You obviously want a day off. You have competitors, I presume, and if so banning Easter trading forcibly shuts them down too, which is to your benefit at the margin. What’s missing?

    , but hey, so far you have not let facts get in the way of your desire to force everybody to work so you can go shopping or pose outside some trendy Parnell café so I don’t suppose you are going to start now.

    And now you are simply lying. First it is illegal for employers to force their workers to work on Easter. Second my position at all times has been to let people make up their own mind. I have said it over and over. Still you misrepresent me.

    There already is a sensible case for Easter trading, is it the current law, it is only desperadoes such as yourself and greedy or unorganised bastards who want it changed.

    Again you lie. The case for letting consenting adults trade with one another is not grounded in the deep principle of really really wanting to buy beer on Friday, I can assure you.

    Tell me Ben, would you ever be in a position of being forced to work Easter when you did not want to do so?

    And irrelevant. One, that is not the issue. Two, about the worst possible solution to that type of coercion is to replace it with another which says absolutely nobody may work! Duh.

    …..thought not, you would be one of those people who made sure the business was open while you paraded yourself at one of the “must be seen at events” enjoying your time off.

    Maybe I would. I don’t know how its relevant. It still would not justify a law that stops person A peacefully and willingly trading with person B.

    Say something on point, Bruv, anything. The question, remember, is why a third party should have the right to prevent by force two consenting adults trading with one another at no harm to anyone else.

    I’d still like to know why else a retailer like yourself would support anti-trading laws if not for protection from their superior or better-organised competition.

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  84. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    Ben.

    Lets look at your example where you cite “a law that stops person A peacefully and willingly trading with person B.”

    In the main you are not talking about Person A and Person B. A customer does not usually purchase from a person. They purchase from a shop owned by a corporation staffed by people other than the owner. That is certainly the case where I work.

    So let us refer to this person in the store as Person C. In order to get the job Person C has agreed to make himself available to work on public holidays when the store is open. This is common practice in retail where employees are often required to make themselves available for work in weekends and Public Holidays. To take the day off, while legal, is actively discouraged due to the extraordinarliy high volume of trade that goes on on those days. Boxing Day is the single biggest retail day for most stores. The monday after easter is not far behind.

    So what we have is person A willingly trading with Person B, the owner of the business, who could well be at home with his family, while person C, who would like to be with his family, is working.

    Ben. Are you a store owner, or do you work in a store? Do you have a family that you would like to spend more time with? Is there anything you need from a store that you cannot plan ahead for or wait for one day to purchase or are you happy for employees to give up 2 of the 3 and a half days per year thay currently get with their whole family?

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  85. gravedodger (1,504 comments) says:

    @ slightlyrightly without any of the superficial and extraneous arguments above simply answer two questions.
    1 Why is trading allowed in Queenstown at easter unfettered and 50 kms away on arguably the biggest weekend of the yearwith the international airshow, Wanaka is largely closed.
    2 why is a trader sole or a family business with no staff issues or with a staff desiring to work breaking the law in meeting the desires of the customers.

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  86. ben (2,396 comments) says:

    Not one part of your post actually addresses anything about person A peacefully and willingly trading with person B.

    In the main you are not talking about Person A and Person B. A customer does not usually purchase from a person. They purchase from a shop owned by a corporation staffed by people other than the owner. That is certainly the case where I work.

    Actually, yes I am talking about that. Whether a person walks into the store and deals with the owner, or deals with an agent acting on behalf of the owner, who themselves have an arrangement, isn’t material to the point: whether there’s one agreement between two people, or two agreements between three, it’s still a voluntary, non-coercive arrangement. That’s more than you can say for Easter trading laws which operate ultimately at the point of a gun.

    But what’s your point here – that it isn’t possible for consenting adults to voluntarily write agreements for Easter but they can every other day of the year? If you can’t explain why 2 consenting adults should not be able to write an agreement to trade at Easter, at least be consistent and explain why similar interference shouldn’t apply the other 363 days of the year if it’s the right idea for 2 days.

    The idea that it’s ok to suspend what are basic rights of people because it’s only for two days a year and won’t hurt much is palpably silly. As a citizen I have the inalienable right to exchange with whoever I like. I harm nobody in doing so. I do not expect to have a third party impress by force upon me their view any more than I expect to be able to impress mine upon them. A government, even one supported by a majority, that does not respect that basic right to expression and association and religion is firstly in violation of its own Bill of Rights, and is simply protecting of some politically favoured group, in this case religious groups and unions. I consider Easter trading laws in precisely the same way as tariffs: protection by thuggery.

    Ben. Are you a store owner, or do you work in a store? Do you have a family that you would like to spend more time with? Is there anything you need from a store that you cannot plan ahead for or wait for one day to purchase or are you happy for employees to give up 2 of the 3 and a half days per year thay currently get with their whole family?

    My personal circumstances are irrelevant. People do not need laws to spend time with their family any more than they need laws to brush their teeth. Both can be arranged perfectly well by citizens in their own time and in their own way and in the amount that suits the circumstances of each without the state coercing them into it. Afterall, citizens manage every other aspect of their lives without the state doing their bidding. If you disagree and actually think that so many workers in firms are subject to coercion by owners that they need the state to step in on their behalf for 2 days of the year, then be consistent and argue the same for the other 363 days.

    So what we have is person A willingly trading with Person B, the owner of the business, who could well be at home with his family, while person C, who would like to be with his family, is working.

    It simply does not follow from this example that state coercion is a good idea. For every one of your example the exact opposite will hold elsewhere, probably in similar numbers. For every person grateful to be at home, another is pissed off at not being at work on 1.5 times the wage and taking the following Friday off to see Grandpa. Or whatever. You think Easter trading rules are a good idea by ignoring all the people hurt by them. Actually the population it not homogenous, not even close. Even for the people where your example is true, the same could be said for every single day of the year – doesn’t it follow from your logic that the state should be regulating those days too, also to those people’s benefit? If not, why not? Be consistent.

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  87. James (1,338 comments) says:

    # Sideoiler (17) Says:
    April 7th, 2010 at 11:30 am

    “Anzac should be the only day that trading should not take place.”

    Bullshit! ANZAC day is actually the one day free trade SHOULD be honoured and practiced more than any other! It is pure fascism to force businesses to close by State decree on ANY day…but to do so on the day we remember those who fought FOR freedom and AGAINST fascism is a disgusting and evil irony.What a massive spit on the graves of our war dead it is to have the State,supposedly out of “respect” (gag!) for these fallen heroes use force to stop consenting people freely interacting as they choose!

    “Thanks old soldiers…..but Hitler was right…..now piss off.”

    Sickmaking…

    And I see Big Bruv is still a good little Nazi at heart…..what a hypocritic shit you are …

    [DPF: No calling people Nazis. 20 demerits]

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  88. ben (2,396 comments) says:

    I think we’ve got Big Bruv’s number. He’s a retailer, wants a day or two off over Easter (fair enough), and is very happy to have the government do his bidding and shut down is competitors as well (most certainly not fair enough).

    So basically: shut the country down, I don’t want to lose a few sales to my competitors while I’m at the beach. Pure thuggery.

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  89. James (1,338 comments) says:

    [DPF: No calling people Nazis. 20 demerits]

    Worth it…..in spades

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