If it is good for the goose

May 3rd, 2010 at 8:12 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

Tuhoe leaders say a Crown apology for 19th century injustices would be meaningless unless tribes who fought with colonial forces also say sorry.

The Herald understands Treaty settlement negotiations have explored what shape a formal Crown apology might take, but sources say if an apology is owed then Ngati Porou, Ngati Kahungunu and Te Arawa should also show some contrition.

Of course the Crown can not compel such apologies, and this is a process to settle historical grievances against the Crown.

AUT University pro vice-chancellor Maori Pare Keiha has Rongowhakaata tribal links to Te Kooti and had ancestors who were killed by the religious and guerrilla leader.

But he was wary of the concept of an apology.

“I have no doubt whatsoever that our own people were not all kind and caring – but that’s also the history of humankind.

“I’m always very cautious to revise history because whether you call it civil wars or internecine fighting, none of us were there.

“With hindsight, history often has a habit of distorting the truth. If we carry around [that] hurt, none of us would get out of bed in the morning.”

Now I am very much a supporter of the Crown making historical settlements. I supported these under both National and Labour Governments.

But it strikes me that the arguments from the AUT pro-chancellor about why Iwi should not apologise for acts against other Iwi, can also be used to argue against apologies from the Crown.

If the Crown is going to apologise for decisions taken by Government leaders 150 years ago (which it should), then I don’t see why Iwi should not apologise for the decisions of their leaders, which disadvantaged other Iwi.

Surely settling grievances by way of apology is good for everyone?

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35 Responses to “If it is good for the goose”

  1. Chicken Little (741 comments) says:

    So…….the Tuhoe hapu who took part in Te Kootis raids on Whakatane will be apologising too right? Or Opape or Poverty bay or Rotorua?

    How about the Iwi that went to the Chathams?

    Or the Taranaki tribes that invaded Te Aro and the upper South Island?

    This is insanity. Sad days for my country.

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  2. malcolm (1,952 comments) says:

    Meaningless gestures which fuel the ridiculous notion than you can and should redress things which happened many many generations ago.

    It’s a sign of a failing culture to be so preoccupied with the past while doing so badly in the present. And I apply that sentiment equally to New Zealand and Maori.

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  3. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    This “apologising” thing has got completely out of hand. Its time common sense took over and the whole damn wet weak politically correct concept was kicked far into touch. It won’t happen though, as long as there is some bunch of self interested taxpayer funded Wellington wankers lobbying jelly backed tax payer funded politicians to keep it alive.

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  4. starboard (2,537 comments) says:

    FFS…it was 150 years ago !!!! Move on maori or get left even further behind. What a sad joke.

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  5. Lipo (229 comments) says:

    I have not really supported the Crown making historical settlements DPF because the process isn’t about making a settlement or righting a wrong. It is all about welfare. Throwing my taxpayer dollars at a historically under performing race to improve their living standards. See Te Tai Tokerau settlement as a case in point

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  6. adamsmith1922 (890 comments) says:

    Given that I am British and and have some Celtish ancestry, can I get an apology from the Italians for the deep hurt of my ancestors from the Roman invasion despite the civilisation they brought. As I have some Anglo _Saxon ancestry can I get an apology from the Danes and the French for the Vikings and Normans. Of course not. Total nonsense, as is so much of this rubbish.

    This apology rubbish is, as Redbaiter said, out of control. I find the quoted remarks of the Maori academic really interesting – so we should all look to the future and history looked at today may be a distortion as we see it, so logically that suggests that much of this Treaty process is a rort to extort money and assets from the taxpayer. Clearly also much of it can be seen as racist if only Pakeha have to apologise. Plus yet again these people who are so intermarried with Europeans anyway seem to focus only on one part of their ancestry, and to deny the rest.

    Inadvertently the academic has done us all a great favour by demonstrating what a travesty much of this is, as he has blown the whistle on the whole thing.

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  7. 3-coil (1,220 comments) says:

    You will have a difficult job convincing a lot of people that “if it is good for the goose…” argument applies. As Dr Brash discovered, he was being “racist” expecting the rules to be applied equally to all New Zealanders – we have some very special citizens who believe that only the rights belong to them, not the responsibilities.

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  8. jinpy (226 comments) says:

    Is this ironical or what, as a leaning-left liberal how am I supposed to argue for the treaty process as being meaningful when this guy has just said he won’t apologize for the past or seemingly even refer to it!

    This is not the full story though, e.g. what does this mean:
    “I’m always very cautious to revise history because whether you call it civil wars or internecine fighting, none of us were there.”

    What does this refer to–there’s no other reference to a revision of history in the article. There is information missing — I’m assuming the guy didn’t make only three quotes in the interview, as well, they’re clearly cherry picked.

    Good to see such arguments come out into public, though. Could I be optimistic and suggested its a turning in the tide away from grievance as the focus…?
    “I have no doubt whatsoever that our own people were not all kind and caring – but that’s also the history of humankind.”

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  9. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    This apology rubbish is, as Redbaiter said, out of control.
    here here.

    Lets have an apology day and everyone can apologise to everyone who they need to, historically and immediate.
    Like Yom Kippur.
    then we get it all over in one fell swoop.

    this incessant warfare by Maori who have utu problems from their unforgiveness needs to be knocked on the head.
    It doesn’t change the fact that we are all tangata whenua (if we were born here) and those who hold the citizenship and passport are all equal with no one group being special or superior to any others.

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  10. Guy Fawkes (702 comments) says:

    I have a particular grudge against the Vikings. My house in England is near to a very ancient Danish Settlement. They never took account of the needs of the modern day motorist, and heavy Continental lorries.

    Moreover I am not sure which Vikings kept on invading my area or each other?

    Were they based in Norway, Denmark, Sweden or indeed Germany?

    None of their descendants will own up, and I am sure that they owe me big time.

    Please could someone appraise me of the grievance procedure on Viking Compensation. I am particularly interested in No win – No fee, or tax payer funding from NZ, as guys here have a vested interest. But for the Vikings, the English would never have had the ship-building technology, or Navigational skills.

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  11. Owen McShane (1,226 comments) says:

    Does anyone think the Northern US states are going to apologise to the South for waging war on them – or the other way round?

    I grew up in Rotorua and at that time the general feeling among our Maori friends and neighbours was that the Arawa had made the right choices during the land wars and come out of it better off than most.

    Leaders of tribes make choices about their tribal welfare. I am sure if those Arawa leaders were alive and could speak today they would not apologise to the Tuhoi or the Ngapuhi. They assessed the situation and made their alliances – just like nations and tribes everywhere when war threatens.

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  12. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    [DPF]: If the Crown is going to apologise for decisions taken by Government leaders 150 years ago (which it should), then I don’t see why Iwi should not apologise for the decisions of their leaders, which disadvantaged other Iwi.[/quote]

    Absolutely. But here’s the thing: whether or not the state apologises to iwi is the business of pakeha citizens such as you and I. Whether or not one iwi apologises to another is really none of our business.

    [DPF: The state represents all citizens, not just Pakeha. And while it is up to Iwi to decide the issue, we have every right to have a view - just as we also have views on UK politics and US politics]

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  13. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    ” But here’s the thing: whether or not the state apologises to iwi is the business of pakeha citizens such as you and I. Whether or not one iwi apologises to another is really none of our business.”

    The kind of ignorant separatist ranting that will accelerate this country’s descent into the same kind of politically corrupt racist and crime ridden morass that is South Africa today.

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  14. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    [Redbaiter]:The kind of ignorant separatist ranting that will accelerate..

    No. Shut the fuck up dickhead.

    An Iwi is a group of people of which I am not a member. Who they may or may not choose to apologise to, and for what, REALLY REALLY ISN’T ANY OF MY BUSINESS.

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  15. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    But here’s the thing: whether or not the state apologises to iwi is the business of pakeha citizens such as you and I.

    Oh yeah – cause only white people are allowed to make decisions. Fuck you are ignorant.

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  16. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    ^^^ I didn’t say “only” white people. You are a troll, looking for something to be offended by. GTFO.

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  17. alex Masterley (1,517 comments) says:

    On one side of my family my forbears were Anglo-Protestant from Northern Ireland. Therefore we were nasty oppressors of the indigenous Celts. Tough but no apology.

    On the other side of my family my forbears were Anglo Norman and allegedly turned up in England on the coat tails of William tthe Conquerer. We won the Battle of Hastings. eat that! and Adam, sorry old son, no apologies from this quarter.

    In short, I agree with Adam and Red, this apology thing is a lot of bollocks.

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  18. MT_Tinman (3,186 comments) says:

    I agree with most here.

    The only statement required would say “The Poms and their mates won, you lost, it was 150 bloody years ago. Grow up and live with it.” or words to that effect.

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  19. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    ^^^ I didn’t say “only” white people. You are a troll, looking for something to be offended by. GTFO.

    WTF do you think a Pakeha is then?

    Like I said IGNORANT!

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  20. JC (956 comments) says:

    Lets see..

    At breakfast my wife’s Tuhoe side is going to demand an apology off her Te Arawa side, at lunch her Arawa side is going to demand an apology off her Pakeha side, and at dinner all three are going to say its all *my* fault!

    JC

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  21. emmess (1,428 comments) says:

    If anyone needs to apologise in this country, it should be the members of Te Rauparaha’s (New Zealand’s Hitler) iwi

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  22. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    [Bevan]: WTF do you think a Pakeha is then? Like I said IGNORANT!

    I know what “Pakeha” is.

    Do you know what the word “only” means?

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  23. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    [DPF]: The state represents all citizens, not just Pakeha.

    FFS, not you too! :-P

    I said crown apologies were the business of Pakeha New Zealanders, but I did not say they were EXCLUSIVELY or SOLELY the business of Pakeha New Zealanders.

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  24. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    What is this crap?

    The State shouldn’t apologize on my behalf as i have done nothing wrong, get HRM here to apologize or stfu.

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  25. cabbage (455 comments) says:

    Absolutely. But here’s the thing: whether or not the state apologises to iwi is the business of pakeha citizens such as you and I. Whether or not one iwi apologises to another is really none of our business.

    The implications in your statement make your seperatist beliefs quite clear.

    You may not see this yourself, but it is resoundingly clear to those whom read your statement.

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  26. side show bob (3,660 comments) says:

    It’s all irrelevant PC crap anyway. I’m sure if every citizen in this country was to say sorry, just for the hell of it, nothing would change. The constant calling by Maori for apology’s is because they can, they do it because pussy wiped politicians lack the balls to say enough, they do it to remind all and sundry they are here and they do it because they have become like spoilt children, who must get their way.

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  27. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    [Cabbage]: “The implications in your statement make your seperatist beliefs quite clear. ”

    Go on then. What separatist beliefs? I’m dying to hear this.

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  28. Sean (301 comments) says:

    Look, this is quite simple: “We’re sorry we ate your ancestors”. End of story.

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  29. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    adamsmith1922 What the fuck does it have to do with a white visitor from the UK ?
    It is none of your bloody business, don’t like that idea, the airport is close for you to go home to your BNP friends.

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  30. tom hunter (4,852 comments) says:

    “With hindsight, history often has a habit of distorting the truth. If we carry around [that] hurt, none of us would get out of bed in the morning.”

    I often carry around hurt from my work – but find that earning whopping loads of cash still gives me an incentive to get out of bed in the morning.

    Mind you, if I had lawyers getting the cash for me I’d probably sleep till noon ;)

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  31. Viking2 (11,471 comments) says:

    Guy Fawkes (134) Says:
    But for the Vikings, the English would never have had the ship-building technology, or Navigational skills.

    Piss off we came to your place remember. Cleaned out you useless sarcenacs and impregnated your women with better DNA.
    Thankless task given what you have reverted to these days.

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  32. kiki (425 comments) says:

    You will find viking2 that the vikings came briefly ruled some parts then were assimilated. They left a few words and some genes but overall nothing else and even the French who also were invaded would have been more french than viking when they invaded the english.

    A 9000 year old skeleton was found in one part of england and showed a connection to a local person. Your history is that of the maori and most people, over blown for personal ego. Feels good to think you are related to someone or something important.

    The chinese left a greater impression on maritime advances

    http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-67654277.html

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  33. Brian Smaller (4,023 comments) says:

    Ha ha ha. DPF you naive young man, you!

    Before the colonial oppressors arrived everyone in this land lived together in peace with moas and the tribes all livied in harmony. Where do you people learn your history?

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  34. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    emmess, [May 3rd, 2010 at 10:49 am],

    If anyone needs to apologise in this country, it should be the members of Te Rauparaha’s (New Zealand’s Hitler) iwi

    I apologise – well about 1/8th of me does, anyway.

    But doesn’t all this apologising just reinforce the whole victimhood mentality?
    “I’m a victim; you need to apologise and make (financial) restitution. And if/when I stuff up it is not my, but rather your, fault; I am a victim afterall.”
    Isn’t this the cry of any/all minority interest groups? And if they are not encouraged to ‘get over it’, won’t their view persist regarding the expectation that ‘others’ owe them, and they have minimal/no personal responsibilty for their own life-choices and outcomes?

    And I say this as someone who is part Maori.

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  35. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    well said Kris.

    We need to burn the treaty and tell everyone it is day one, the Queen doesn’t own NZ but ALl the people do, get over it.
    We are a multicutural country not a bicultural one.
    Set an end date for full and final payment of treaty claims and stop the legal gravy train.
    Alongside that we can rescind all legislation that favours any one racial group over all others.
    If Labour could replace Father, Mother, Husband, Wife for other words we can word search Maori or other words too.
    we are all equal.
    So good bye to the Maori seats 1st off.

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