General Debate 7 June 2010

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billyborker

Funny how this BIG GUY never seems to help his chosen ones, eh?

Too busy making rules about butt fucking and prawn eating, I guess.
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June 7, 2010 5:30pm
Johnboy

He parted the Red Sea for Charlton Heston billy, don’t be too mocking, if the Israelites had stopped to collect the prawns they would have gone the same way as Yul Brynner’s chariots.
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June 7, 2010 5:39pm
Luc Hansen

I see I missed a lot of fun yesterday, from the arch-propagandist KIA, who appears to get his posts straight from the Mossad intranet, to Mad Mike, the well known gun for hire to whom a human head is legitimate target practise.

Anyway, I thought a few words from the uber-cool and rational Noam Chomsky is in order, and the whole article is here.

But here’s a couple of extracts to give some food for thought:

Could I ask you for a statement on Israel’s attack on the Freedom Flotilla this week while it was in international waters on its way to Gaza?

Hijacking boats in international waters and killing passengers is, of course, a serious crime. The editors of the London Guardian are quite right to say that “If an armed group of Somali pirates had yesterday boarded six vessels on the high seas, killing at least 10 passengers and injuring many more, a NATO taskforce would today be heading for the Somali coast.”

It is worth bearing in mind that the crime is nothing new. For decades, Israel has been hijacking boats in international waters between Cyprus and Lebanon, killing or kidnapping passengers, sometimes bringing them to prisons in Israel including secret prison/torture chambers, sometimes holding them as hostages for many years. Israel assumes that it can carry out such crimes with impunity because the US tolerates them and Europe generally follows the US lead.

Much the same is true of Israel’s pretext for its latest crime: that the Freedom Flotilla was bringing materials that could be used for bunkers for rockets. Putting aside the absurdity, if Israel were interested in stopping Hamas rockets it knows exactly how to proceed: accept Hamas offers for a cease-fire. In June 2008, Israel and Hamas reached a cease- fire agreement. The Israeli government formally acknowledges that until Israel broke the agreement on November 4, invading Gaza and killing half a dozen Hamas activists, Hamas did not fire a single rocket.

Hamas offered to renew the cease-fire. The Israeli cabinet considered the offer and rejected it, preferring to launch its murderous and destructive Operation Cast Lead on December 27. Evidently, there is no justification for the use of force “in self-defense” unless peaceful means have been exhausted. In this case they were not even tried, although — or perhaps because — there was every reason to suppose that they would succeed. Operation Cast Lead is therefore sheer criminal aggression, with no credible pretext, and the same is true of Israel’s current resort to force.

The siege of Gaza itself does not have the slightest credible pretext. It was imposed by the US and Israel in January 2006 to punish Palestinians because they voted “the wrong way” in a free election, and it was sharply intensified in July 2007 when Hamas blocked a US-Israeli attempt to overthrow the elected government in a military coup, installing Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan. The siege is savage and cruel, designed to keep the caged animals barely alive so as to fend off international protest, but hardly more than that. It is the latest stage of long-standing Israeli plans, backed by the US, to separate Gaza from the West Bank.

These are only the bare outlines of very ugly policies.

and this:

In the US itself there also are changes. Whether they are fast enough to overcome the major problems I don’t know, but just take Israel and Palestine. Not many years ago, if I wanted to give a talk on this I had to have police protection at a university, because the meetings would be broken up violently. I can remember when the police insisted on accompanying me and my wife back to our car after a talk at a university. That’s not completely changed, but it’s been changing over the years, and it changed radically after Gaza. Now there are enthusiastic audiences, very much engaged, very involved, very much wanting to do things.

I suggest the flotilla massacre is another watershed in the process of justice for Palestinians. Time will tell. Regardless, Israel must prepare for the day when it loses US support, the process has already begun, and decide whether it wants to further descend into pariah status or come in from the cold.

And yesterday there were presented lots of examples of similar or worse atrocities in other countries. I agree they are tragic, but to answer the question of why Israel is singled out – it’s not. That’s only in their paranoia.

But Israel is a uniquely western construct, imposed in the dying days of western colonialism, founded in basic injustice to the indigenous population, so it’s primarily our responsibility perhaps even our primary responsibility given the increasing violent nature of the regime in Jerusalem.

Finally, to go back to Chomsky, he questions the validity of the slogan “speak truth to power” and wants an alternative found. For Palestinians, it has been found.

It’s Viva Palestina!

Viva Palestina!

By the way, it’s going to be interesting if the IRGC goes through with its offer to escort the next flotilla!
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June 7, 2010 7:17pm
MikeNZ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tOdW0qEy4g
Yeah let’s Free Gaza
From Hamas:
But would it make any difference?
Iran escort the next flotilla?
A wet dream for you and your buddies LUC.

What an idea.
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June 7, 2010 7:35pm
Hurf Durf

Who wants to bet young Billy got spit roasted by Father Thompson and Rabbi Goldberg? It would explain a lot.
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June 7, 2010 8:34pm
MikeNZ

Hurf – leave it out.
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June 7, 2010 9:09pm
Luc Hansen

Mad Mike

I would love to see Gaza freed from Hamas.

Take a bit of time and see how long after 1948 it took for Hamas to form and get traction. It was nearly forty years, and then only after 20 years of brutal occupation that continues to this day – that’s over 60 years, MM.

Before Hamas, Gaza was about 20% Christian. Now it’s 2%. There is nothing pretty about Hamas – just like all resistance groups who arise from extreme adversity.

I don’t believe Iran will escort any ships, it would just see the US and Israel advance their attack plans by a decade or so. But I do think Turkey is going to get more involved, and that’s a different matter for Israel.

All sieges end, but now the end of this siege, whenever it comes, can only be seen as a defeat for Israel. It’s their fault for overplaying their hand, as Bibi has done before.
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June 7, 2010 9:50pm
billyborker

Mike, he would leave it out, but every time he tries, the rabbi makes him put it back in again.
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June 7, 2010 9:53pm
philu

when will farrar clean this sewer up…?

…and make drop-kicks like hurf use their real name…?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 7, 2010 10:23pm
Hurf Durf

LOL bonkers – at least I tried to resist it.
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June 7, 2010 10:49pm
jcuknz

A more rational commentary than most to be found in this thread …
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/opinion/07douthat.html?th&emc=th
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June 8, 2010 7:43am
tom hunter

Let me just point out several things with Noam’s claim.

First, he word Tahdia is an Arabic term for a lull, not a ceasefire – that’s rather like the old schoolboy trick of making a promise whilst keeping your fingers crossed behind your back.

Second, the ‘lull’ in mortar and rocket attacks so praised here is only such when compared to the immediate periods either side. If one looks at the attacks over several years it’s quite apparent that the arrival of Hamas on the scene saw a near doubling and then tripling of such attacks. You’ll also notice that the did not fire a single rocket line is a lie.

Third, the Israeli government has never acknowledged any such thing, and if their pathetic little operation to find a tunnel a whole 250 yards into Gaza was regarded as a pretext for Hamas to start rocketing, then you’d have to ask why countless other breaches by both Israel and Hamas over the preceding few months did not have the same result? After all, for all the usual Noam chants about criminal actions it’s clear the Israeli military would have been good to go at any point in time. By contrast Hamas would have needed time to rearm – and it would seem that by December they had!

Fourth, Israel announced in mid-December that they wanted the ceasefire reinstated, provided Hamas could adhere to the conditions. A week later Hamas officially announced that they would not extend the ceasefire and only then, around Christmas, did Israel start warning that it was going to start taking action.

Fifth, one of the biggest ceasefire sticking points for Israel was their kidnapped soldier, Gilad Shalit, whom they offered some 500 prisoners for: Hamas responded by asking for 1000 and the Israelis figured the demands would simply increase with time. Hamas also rejected proposals to mediate by both European countries (such great friends of Israel) and even the Egyptians. To say the least, these are not the actions of a group negotiating in good faith.

Typical Chomsky lies in other words, though these are more blatant than usual. He’s slipping in his dotage.
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June 8, 2010 8:14am
jcuknz

The point that Hamas started firing rockets into Israel was to attract attention despite the fearful retribution it exacted, a form of masochism by Gaza as a last resort in dealing with an implacable foe. and when it seemed that contrary to expectation the Israeli might be going to give concessions Hamas stopped the rocket firing. The problem currently is that there are some rogue elements that Hamas does not have control over and it is they that are firing the rockets … though with Israeli drones I would have thought it an extremely hazardous practice … so I cannot see any reason for there to be a blockade. Just Israeli/Hamas cooperation in controlling or exterminating the rogue elements. The IDF has the firepower though perhaps it needs better skills judging by the armed hujacking of the freighter recently. It is tragic that Gilad Shalt has been imprisoned for so long but it merely illustrates the block headedness of the Israeli Government and their paranoia.

Not either side but preceding I think.

countless breaches by both Israeli and Hamas would seem to be a stupid middle east version of ‘Utu’.

The Israeli Prime Minister doesn’t look like a young cockeral from what I’ve seen on TV.

I appreciate that it is difficult, almost imposssible for somebody, in this case a people, suffering from paranoia to come to their senses without appropriate treatment and gradually growing out of it as the cause of the problem works its way out of them. The sad thing is that so much siffering will continue in the Gaza Strip while this is happening. You note not being involved I am an optomist that there will be a solution.
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June 8, 2010 4:12pm
RightNow

“Iran’s Revolutionary Guard naval forces are prepared to escort the peace and freedom convoys that carry humanitarian assistance for the defenceless and oppressed people of Gaza with all their strength,” pledged Hojjatoleslam Ali Shirazi, Khamenei’s personal representative to the guards corps.

That should ensure peace and freedom. Will they still claim the terrorist activists on board are civilians? Suicide bombers are civilians too?
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June 8, 2010 4:24pm

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