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June 10, 2010 6:01pm by David Farrar

MMP supporters

If you’re an MMP supporter, there is now an official website for the pro-MMP campaign, and an associated Facebook group.

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Comment33

NZ Politics
MMP

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Comments (33)

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jaba

is it linked to the Greens?
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June 10, 2010 6:21pm
Johnboy

Go get fucked.

Signed: P. Shirtcliffe
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June 10, 2010 6:33pm
Muzza M

More Maoris in Parliament, or more Muppets in Parliament, or More Morons in Parliament. As Johnboy above said, go get fucked.
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June 10, 2010 6:36pm
Johnboy

No. I was just repeating what Peter would have said.
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June 10, 2010 6:38pm
AlphaKiwi

The link is wrong. You left your web address in front of the other web address.
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June 10, 2010 6:45pm
perfectvampire

Is it just me, or is it really concerning that a University Senior Lecturer is the spokesperson for this group? Isn’t the role of academics and teachers to inform & educate in a balanced way? Should they not restrain themselves from involvement in such activities in this way? In the real world (i.e. the private sector), this would absolutely be deemed a conflict on interest.
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June 10, 2010 7:01pm
fatman43us

Go the trogs!

MMP is a rort for those who love the feel of other peoples money and seat between their toes. Conflict of Interest is only worrying when those on the right find it. The left have BELIEFS!!
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June 10, 2010 7:06pm
Johnboy

After reading this very carefully I have had to revise my previous stance.

“The Campaign for MMP is planning to have branches throughout the country and to work with allied groups including Artists and Musicians for MMP and Women for MMP to represent the wide range of New Zealanders who care about having a fair electoral system. ”

And:

”
Dr Sandra Grey is a Senior Lecturer at Victoria University, where she teaches social and public policy. Sandra has had a long association with education, beginning when she worked as a music teacher near her home town of Waiuku in the early 1990s.

In 2008 Sandra won a Marsden grant from the Royal Society of New Zealand to research the role of social movements in democracy. Sandra’s research centres on the participation of groups and representation in a healthy democracy. She is women’s vice president of the Tertiary Education Union that represents academic and administrative staff at universities and polytechs around New Zealand.

Sandra is passionate about the changes MMP has introduced to the political landscape, especially the benefits it has brought to women, Maori, Asian and Pacific Island New Zealanders.

My new stance is Peter and Johnboy both say. “Go get Fucked”.
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June 10, 2010 7:08pm
Graeme Edgeler

More Maoris in Parliament, or more Muppets in Parliament, or More Morons in Parliament. As Johnboy above said, go get fucked.

Under first-past-the-post, or STV, or Preferential Vote, there will be at least 12, and probably 13, Maori electorates. Under supplementary member there will be at least nine, and perhaps 10.

Under MMP there are seven.
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June 10, 2010 7:26pm
Jack5

Alois Schickelgruber’s little boy, Adolf, is laughing in his grave.

MMP, an enhanced version of the electoral system under which he and his black and brown shirts took political power, is alive and marching on in NZ.

If we must have proportional representation rather than selection of a government with a mandate for change, action, and progress, let’s have one that doesn’t let anyone into the house who hasn’t been through the fire-walking test of being personally voted in by citizens. No more list MPs like Catherine Delahunty, please.
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June 10, 2010 8:27pm
Johnboy

If we can’t have FPP, STV is what I wanted last time we got asked, nothing has made me change my mind since. If some New Zealanders are too stupid to tick the sheet properly take the bloody vote off them, its too precious to be entrusted to fuckwits.
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June 10, 2010 8:32pm
Comrade Greenie

It simply allows for genuine reflection of how people feel, Its good when we have more than two choices to vote…

@Jack what are you saying about mmp?
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June 10, 2010 8:39pm
Jack5

In response toComrade Greenie’s question at 8.39:

I am saying:

1. I think FPP gives stronger, more efficient governments than proportional representation and IMHO that is more important than strict proportionality of selection. Just as you should pick the best sports team, which may not be the most proportionally prepresentative one.

2. However, if the country does want proportional representation there are better systems than MMP, better IMHO in that they don’t have list MPs not directly voted in by electors (as opposed to MMP’s party list system). Conscience votes, for example, don’t work under MMP. An MMP list MP voting on a conscience issue is answerable to no-one and that ain’t democratic.

The fact that our list MMP system was borrowed from Germany, as adapted by Germany after Occupation ended, was my other reference. I think the main changes from the system of Hitler days was the 5 per cent threshhold, and perhaps modification of the list system. It may be that the changes were to modify the instability of the system in the pre-Hitler Weimar days rather than the fact that it facilitated Hitler’s rise to electoral power. (He soon put the bridle on it, of course).
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June 10, 2010 8:55pm
Comrade Greenie

In Germany, they had a system proportional representation, but after the second world war the Germans switched to MMP… so that they could stop Nazism from occurring again there… Out of curiosity, what better system of proportional representation do you think is more appropriate? The problems with FPP are that people like Roger Douglas and Ruth Richardson and Richard Prebble seized power and thought they knew better than everyone one else …….They betrayed what they were elected for and fucked us and the country all around for their own ideological ends( like ACT and National would like to do)…..no one in Parliament could overturn the mad fuckers…..
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June 10, 2010 9:22pm
Johnboy

“The problems with FPP are that people like Roger Douglas and Ruth Richardson and Richard Prebble seized power and thought they knew better than everyone one else”

Hell and here was silly old me thinking that all of these three stood for electorates and were voted into their respective seats.
Unlike of course all the members of the current Greenie mob who really only seem to be there by seizing power, unelected by any electorate, through some slight of hand conjured up by that dead and non lamented tosser Rod Donald.

God what a dumb fellow I am!
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June 10, 2010 9:30pm
Comrade Greenie

What you have failed to see is that the reason minority parties like the greens could not be represented was because of the way FPP only allows two major contenders…

Now that we have MMP, we begin to realise that the Green party are real and setting the agenda, and tossers like Rod Donald ( Much Lamented ) are voted in by a fairer system where everyone’s vote counts…

Please refrain from insulting the dead… isnt that a slightly scummy thing to do? Rod lives on in spirit…He set the agenda RIP ROD
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June 10, 2010 9:43pm
Johnboy

“Rod lives on in spirit”

You mean you queer bunch of tossers pickled his corpse in best, organic, pumpkin, brandy?

You guys are even weirder than I thought you were from your photos. Sick!

Hell you could have at least stuck him into Jeanettics composting toilet.
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June 10, 2010 9:50pm
Johnboy

“What you have failed to see is that the reason minority parties like the greens could not be represented was because of the way FPP only allows two major contenders…”

Haven’t failed at all Snottie. That’s they way I like things. One clear choice. Know what you are voting for. Asshole them if they piss you off. All very simple and concise really.
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June 10, 2010 9:53pm
Jack5

Comrade Greenie at 9.30….

The modifications in 1949 Germany to the pre-war proportional system were much less than you indicate. One of the most notable was the 5 per cent threshold. This was because the German system as introduced in 1919 allowed a huge surge in the number of parties. As many as 28 contested the 1930 elections and 40 in 1933.

Here’s what a Wikipedia article notes of the Weimar system, the grandparent of NZ’s MMP:

…Proportional Representation allowed no safeguards against a quick rise of an extremist party as only a tiny minority of the votes could get Deputies into the Reichstag as shown in the 1924 elections where the Bavarian Peasants’ League got just 0.7% of the vote resulting in 3 Deputies in the Reichstag…

New Zealand adopted the system as amended in 1949 as Occupation ended. The Kiwi know-alls telling the UK how to reform its system are really just touting the German political experience.

And Comrade Greenie, if FPP gave us Roger Douglas and Richardson, MMP gave us something immeasurably worse, the insufferable Helen Clark and her valkyries. With Clark’s love of tramping around old battlefields and celebrating old battles she may have been exhibiting some valkyry traits as well as trying hyocritically to obfuscate memories of Labour’s historical pacifism, conscientious objection, and general draft dodging during World War 1.
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June 10, 2010 9:56pm
Comrade Greenie

Do you eat vegetables? What do you think their compost was made of? Canniballism? SICK Ahem… comrade johnny, problem with giving them assholes when they lie to you is that by that time they’ve sold half the countries assets.
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June 10, 2010 9:58pm
Comrade Greenie

Go to sleep Johnny.
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June 10, 2010 9:59pm
Sonny Blount

The Greens hovering around 6% have no right to set any agendas for the governance of this country. Let alone ever be in the position of deciding who should form the government.
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June 10, 2010 10:01pm
Comrade Greenie

They have a 6% vote of the whole country, thats quite a lot of people and more than Act’s percentage.
Do you think Act or Greens should have any say in how NZ is run, or just a brawl between National and Labour, or better yet just a brawl between national and our countries assets?
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June 10, 2010 10:04pm
krazykiwi

Meh, so over MMP. We need a completely fresh look at electoral systems. Anything that ties us to 19th century geographic representation is way, way past it’s useby date.
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June 10, 2010 10:06pm
Hurf Durf

MMP’s given us Mad Cath, Bradford and Garfy Hooes. What a brilliant voting system.
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June 10, 2010 10:07pm
Johnboy

I have read somewhere that Psychologists believe that around 6% of the population are certifiable lunatics its just that they haven’t come to the attention of the mental health authorities yet.
Looking at what sort of weirdos greenies vote for I suspect we could round up that 6% fairly easily if we needed to.
I guess while they still think they are setting an agenda and holding meetings and praying to Saint Rod they are doing no harm so best left alone.
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June 10, 2010 10:12pm
Sonny Blount

Do you think Act or Greens should have any say in how NZ is run

No

just a brawl between National and Labour

Yes

I don’t expect those parties 50 or so MPs they might bring to parliament to be clones though. Do away with whipping.

The meaningful challenge for ACT and the Greens is change or replace National and Labour respectively.

National and Labour are merely a coalition of people on the left/right that are declared before the election rather than after.
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June 11, 2010 12:36am
AlphaKiwi

It doesn’t matter what system we have if the voters are stupid enough to keep our democracy a two party system. Two party systems suck!
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June 11, 2010 1:02am
Sonny Blount

And Winston or Turia the king/queen maker rules!

Yeah right.
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June 11, 2010 8:05am
Repton

1. I think FPP gives stronger, more efficient governments than proportional representation and IMHO that is more important than strict proportionality of selection. Just as you should pick the best sports team, which may not be the most proportionally prepresentative one.

By that analogy, perhaps you’d prefer to do away with voting altogether, and just have one person select the best parliament they can come up with?

But who to do the selecting? It would need to be someone experienced in New Zealand politics, but no longer a part of New Zealand politics… Hmm, time to call Helen Clark back from the UN, I guess!

I’m sure she could pick a stronger, more efficient government than the current one. You wouldn’t like it, no doubt, but since you’re happy to not be fairly represented in parliament, I guess that’s OK.
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June 11, 2010 11:46am
Repton

The Greens hovering around 6% have no right to set any agendas for the governance of this country. Let alone ever be in the position of deciding who should form the government.

If you haven’t noticed, the Greens have never been a part of government, so you can hardly accuse them of deciding who should form government.

As to setting an agenda — any opposition party can use members’ bills to try to push their agenda. The government of the day can, of course, vote them down without thought if they wish, but sometimes the opposition comes up with good ideas, so they advance the bill. I don’t see anything wrong with that.
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June 11, 2010 11:53am
AlphaKiwi

@Sonny
A teething problem of our first MMP election doesn’t mean that a two party system is great because of it.
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June 11, 2010 12:30pm
Jack5

Repton at 11.46am:

… perhaps you’d prefer to do away with voting altogether, and just have one person select the best parliament they can come up with?

What sort of an argument is that? Repton is saying MMP or nothing – without MMP you might as well have a dictator. What crap. We have had many nations with FPP democracy. We’ve also had one malevolent dictatorship born in the progenitor system of MMP – Nazi Germany.

And what of conscience votes by list MPs. Just who are these list MPs answerable to on their conscious votes. Some democracy.
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June 11, 2010 3:15pm

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