Sunday coverage of expenses

June 13th, 2010 at 9:00 am by David Farrar

The HoS reports is close to quitting Parliament:

New Zealand’s first openly gay Cabinet minister is close to quitting Parliament because he is sick of being attacked as a “luxury-loving gay boy”.

Chris will quite Parliament at the next election – because his colleagues are so pissed off at him.

“Do you want to live your life with this stuff going on all the time? You know, I love being an MP. But there might well be a point soon where I think this is just not worth it.”

Yes, how dare one have to endure scrutiny of spending.

But he said the public perception of him as living the high-life at the taxpayer’s expense was grossly inaccurate – and he still drives a 1996 Suzuki Swift.

The only thing grossly inaccurate is Chris’ perception. It is a shame – he used to have a well developed political instinct, but it has deserted him.

“I have lots of faults … but arrogance, pride and love of luxury are not among them.”‘

So why the $6,000 of limo hire?

No other Minister has been “forced” into hiring them, as you claim you were by the Australian Government.

Matt McCarten writes:

This week the credit card expenses came out on Thursday and none of it was good for Labour.

A number of former Labour ministers clearly didn’t know where the line between their public responsibilities and personal luxury needs started and finished. …

But what these ministers didn’t get is there are rightly different standards for them. They are in the privileged positions of being leaders, where their personal ethics and integrity are important no matter what their political stripes. Carelessly using a ministerial card for personal luxuries is thoughtless at best and corrupt at worst.

There are two types of politicians – those that think it’s a privilege to be a representative of the people and those who think it’s a privilege for us to have them. You can guess which category the ministerial card abusers fall under.

As we saw in the previous story.

And Kerre Woodham writes:

Phil Goff thundered sanctimoniously that Heatley’s position went to his head.

He’d barely been minister for a year, Phil Goff expostulated, and his sense of entitlement was such that he ordered two bottles of wine with dinner. Heads should roll, Phil finished.

Well, as sure as the karma bus will make a stop at your door, Labour has found itself having to explain away thousands of dollars worth of credit card bills run up by its former ministers.

Karma indeed.

Chris Carter, the serial trougher, was at it again. Despite being advised repeatedly as to what was appropriate use for his ministerial credit card, and despite being sent the entire parliamentary policy on credit card use, just as a reminder, Chris Carter continually bent the rules.

Movies, flowers, fruit and massages – whether the massages had happy endings isn’t specified on the bill – all popped up on Carter’s credit card.

Oh Kerre. Too much detail.

And the HoS editorial:

The most extraordinary aspect of the scandal over spending irregularities that has destroyed ’ leadership aspirations – and possibly his entire political career – is that he ever imagined he might get away with it.

In numerical terms, Jones is not in fact the worst offender in the latest round of revelations: his one-time colleague in Cabinet, Education Minister Chris Carter, actually ran up 33 per cent more than Jones – on flowers, designer clothing and spa treatments.

Most gallingly, he used his ministerial card to buy flowers for Lianne Dalziel after she was sacked as Immigration Minister for lying about having leaked documents to a television channel.

The logic by which he could regard it as a ministerial duty to console a colleague who had sought to deceive the public remains obscure to everybody but him, it appears.

The thought of personally paying for the flowers did not occur I suspect.

… principal among them is the requirement that no personal expenditure be incurred on a ministerial card. That means precisely what it says: it does not mean that it is all right to run up private expenses with the intention of later reimbursing them.

Many of us run two or more plastic cards and make daily decisions about which to use, for reasons of our own personal accounting. It is no great burden to do so, and it is the least we might expect of someone carrying a card for which the taxpayer picks up the tab.

No great burden and very common.

The events of the week have surely irretrievably damaged the mana of a man who was widely tipped to succeed Phil Goff as Labour leader and, in the eyes of many, potentially the country’s first Maori Prime Minister.

Sad though that is, there is a sense here of history repeating itself. Winston Peters and were in their turn cloaked with the mantle of future premiership.

Hmmn, it does seem to be a sort of curse.

And finally the SST reports:

Jones is being urged not to resign as Goff looks set to use the scandal to shake up his front bench.

Jones and Te Atatu MP Chris Carter face demotion tomorrow after Goff’s return to a party in disarray over revelations going back seven years.

The release of credit card receipts last week show Carter notched up bills for limousines, flowers and massages, while Jones watched dozens of pornographic movies. He repaid the money before he handed in his credit card, but Carter is still paying money back.

Jones, who has been tipped as a potential leader, is considering his future, but has ruled out resigning.

Samuels said Jones shouldn’t quit. “He has got leadership qualities I don’t think anybody else in the party has. Many in Maoridom would be very disappointed if he resigned.”

And besides if Jones goes, who else will be there to grant citizenship for Dover’s mates?

Finally John Tamihere writes in :

THIS week the Department of Internal Affairs disclosed detailed lists identifying expenditure of ministers in the Labour Government from 2003-2008. I was a minister from 2002-2004.

I had no idea I could order massages, flowers, porn movies and booze galore. The biggest scalp achieved by the clever release of this information was Shane Jones.

While others erred and were arguably worse, particularly Chris Carter, Jones is the big story.

He entered Parliament as the Labour Party attack weapon on the Maori Party and as a person who had huge cross-over appeal into non-Maori communities.

He has Dalmatian ancestry and was gaining significant support for a tilt at the Labour leadership once they lose the 2011 election.

I am not sure Jones was going to wait until 2011.  Phil Goff’s leadership has been made much safer by this.

The question is, can he survive as a politician? He is a list MP and does not have a constituency to fall back on. He is at the whim of the back-room Labour Party machinery.

That machinery is driven predominantly by a group of women who stretch across the gay, union and the woman’s divisions of the party. They control the moderation committee that decides where you sit on the party list. I sat on that committee for the 1999 and 2002 elections.

All of Shane’s colleagues are going to tell him he has a future in politics and not to quit. And then come the 2011 list ranking, he’ll be given an unwinnable place.

Tags: , , , , , , , ,

112 Responses to “Sunday coverage of expenses”

  1. Eddie (288 comments) says:

    Chris Carter needs to STFU and stop with his interminable whining about being picked on because he’s gay.

    Newsflash Chris – you are being picked on because you are a lying cheating stealing trougher.

    And while I’m at it, take your sob photo expose stories to … The Womens Weekly where they belong.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    “I have lots of faults … but arrogance, pride and love of luxury are not among them.”

    What utter rubbish. I remember his performances as a Minister in the house during Question Time. He was one of the most arrogant unaccountable smirking smug commies there. And among that lot, (when they were in government) that is saying something.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. Grant Michael McKenna (1,110 comments) says:

    Kerre Woodham’s article raises a good point: did the taxpayer pay for a prostitute, and was that prostitute of the age of consent?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    “Samuels said Jones shouldn’t quit. “He has got leadership qualities I don’t think anybody else in the party has. Many in Maoridom would be very disappointed if he resigned.”

    If this posturing preening bonehead and wanker are all Maori have to be proud of, and to present as a future leader, then they might as well fold their damn tent right now.

    ..and if “Maoridom”, (whatever the hell that is), whould be “disappointed” by his resignation then they’re as worthless as he is.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. billyborker (1,101 comments) says:

    Quite honestly, its about time this was put to bed as the non issue it is.

    Politicians rort? Who would have guessed? I mean, come on, Bill English is SOOOOOoo squeaky clean. Nick Smith has his hand in my pocket to pay for his loud mouth.

    Meanwhile, Australia creates one new job every thirty seconds. Now Zealand builds 5 kms of cycleway every 18 months.

    [DPF: And per capita NZ’s rate of job growth in the last quarter was twice that of Australia]

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. Manolo (14,173 comments) says:

    “New Zealand’s first openly gay Cabinet minister is close to quitting Parliament because he is sick of being attacked as a ‘luxury-loving gay boy’”.

    I’ll believe it when I see it. The shameless Labour trougher Carter will cling to his job for as long as possible. When have you seen a turkey voting for an early Christmas?

    His line of being attacked for being ‘gay’ is laughable. The main problem is his blindness, his inability to accept any responsibility. In my opinion, he shouldn’t be allowed to choose his destiny. Goff should force him to resign.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. Put it away (2,872 comments) says:

    “Phil Goff’s leadership has been made much safer by this.”

    Thus making National’s next election win much safer. Good times !

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. Atheist1 (174 comments) says:

    Well as someone who has always voted Labour (yeah yeah alright I don’t need to be abused for that) I can honestly say that unless those two troughing, corrupt, arrogant SOBs are gone by lunchtime (not demoted Phil, GONE!) I will never ever vote Labour again.

    And I know a lot of Labour supporters who feel the same.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    “You know, I love being an MP. But there might well be a point soon where I think this is just not worth it.””

    I knew Carter was divorced from reality but this statement alone should make Goff sack him

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. Pete George (23,830 comments) says:

    Espiner on Q&A had a graphic illustration of different approaches on credit card use – the pile of documents for a year’s usage for Shane Jones were about 2 cm thick, and for Michael Cullen about 2 pages thick.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    What part of the phrase “luxury loving gay boy” is not a statement of fact?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. Caleb (480 comments) says:

    i agree Pete.

    that was a massive difference and supported what Michelle Boag said about the two differnet types of people.

    sack the troughers!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. Eddie (288 comments) says:

    Borker, I agree 100%.

    It is about time this was put to bed – Goff should fire Carter and Jones.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. Eddie (288 comments) says:

    @ nickb “What part of the phrase “luxury loving gay boy” is not a statement of fact?”

    Well, he was born on 4 May 1952, that makes Chris 58 years old, so the correct turn of phrase should be something like “luxury loving gay old man”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. Viking2 (11,680 comments) says:

    Michelle made one mistake; there are three types of people. the two she mentioned and then the third who is the cunning bastard that finds ways around the rules so remaining squeaky clean. Cullen comes to mind.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. Pete George (23,830 comments) says:

    Goff should fire Carter and Jones.

    He shouldn’t have to. I’d quite happily see Carter decide it’s “just not worth it”. Especially now the perks have been cut back.

    Jones should also opt out himself. He might decide that’s the end of his political life (according to Williams he was a reluctant entrant anyway). Or if he does want back in he can then re-package himself wiser and adhering to strong principles and put it to the vote.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    “I mean, come on, Bill English is SOOOOOoo squeaky clean. Nick Smith has his hand in my pocket to pay for his loud mouth”

    but we’re not talking about Smiths hand in your pocket, we’re talking about Carters hand in your pocket ;-o

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. billyborker (1,101 comments) says:

    nickb (1202) Says:

    June 13th, 2010 at 10:18 am
    What part of the phrase “luxury loving gay boy” is not a statement of fact?

    The word “gay” is not factual. The factual term is homosexual.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. wat dabney (3,849 comments) says:

    You know, I love being an MP. But there might well be a point soon where I think this is just not worth it.” Quotation from that famous martyr, Christ Carter.

    At least his collegue Shame Jones, after having wanked all over those taxpayer dollars, didn’t then attempt to rub them in our faces.

    Next time, Chris, just give your boyfriend a pearl necklace rather than stealing money to buy flowers, eh? Otherwise, because it’s you who keeps stressing this gay thing, people are going to start believing you stole our money just so you would be thrown in prison with a bunch of sexually-frustrated strapping young men.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. starboard (2,563 comments) says:

    The word “gay” is not factual. The factual term is homosexual..

    ..fudge packer , donut puncher , shirt lifter , chocolate fingered cowboy , uphill gardener..gay…all statements of fact borker

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. billyborker (1,101 comments) says:

    You may well think that, starboard, but I couldn’t possibly comment. the last time I did, I was banned for a month.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    “he can then re-package himself”

    Same old unprincipled wet liberal bullshit from the same old wet liberal source.

    “repackage himself”

    Pfffftt.. what worthless crap..

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. Pete George (23,830 comments) says:

    That’s what politicians do when they present themselves at an election RB. It might be worthwhile if you repackaged yourself, but you seem to like to concentrate on bizarre entertainment:
    – an inadvertent self-mock shock jock.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    Shock jock??

    Yeah well I guess to someone so totally submerged in moral relativity and Progressive bullshit as your self, (and Shane Jones) I guess being confronted with good old fashioned right and wrong would be a kind of shock.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. Pete George (23,830 comments) says:

    You’ve self-described quite well again RB – “good old fashioned right and wrong”.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. davidp (3,585 comments) says:

    Scenario: Carter misbehaves. Is caught. Has two choices…

    Choice 1: Admit guilt, apologise, promise that he’ll behave himself in the future.

    Choice 2: Play the gay card.

    Why has he never even considered choice 1?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. reid (16,718 comments) says:

    Why has he never even considered choice 1?

    Possibly because he truly does see himself as a victim. Which says quite a bit about him, such as: entirely unsuitable for any leadership role except in the local kindy. He could probably manage that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. reid (16,718 comments) says:

    Silent T’s a bit like Chris as well, except for a different reason.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. rightofleftcentre (72 comments) says:

    Check out the standard’s thread “Ball Back in Key’s Court”.

    If Labour don’t cut themselves off from apologists like those that feature here (e.g. RedLogix) they will have a serious credibility crisis heading into the next election (yay!). These people have the academic ability to rationalise anything using argument that is far removed form the real world, but which to the faithful sounds plausible – bit like a really well sold quack remedy which works only in the mind of the believer, but when faced with working against a real illness fails the test and the patient dies. They will die if they allow this whole sorry saga to become just one of those things that the voter will forget about. They won’t.
    And as for Carter playing the gay-card, pathetic and again so typical of one bereft of a plausible place to hide.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    I think i am sickened less by Carter’s initial taxpayer theft than his subsequent playng of the gay card, truly sickening, makes my skin crawl.

    I hope Goofy gives him a smackdown tommorow.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. Pete George (23,830 comments) says:

    McCarten makes a good point:
    “There are two types of politicians – those that think it’s a privilege to be a representative of the people and those who think it’s a privilege for us to have them. ”

    Interesting that Williams said he had to talk hard to convince Shane Jones to stand for Labour.

    Perhaps one of the most important issues to arise out of this is how can the right type of person (with the best abilities) be attracted to the job? The exposure and scrutiny they get, much of it unwarranted, is a major turn off.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. reid (16,718 comments) says:

    Check out the standard’s thread “Ball Back in Key’s Court”.

    Once again the left’s hubris poison pours from their clouded and confused mind.

    They simply repeat the failure of the broadcast MSM to clarify for the viewers and listeners from the outset, the drop-dead obvious distinction between valid Foreign Relationship-building expenditure and the rest.

    They clearly don’t think the public will understand this distinction, it’s too complicated for us.

    Lefties. Don’t you just hate them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. Michael (913 comments) says:

    Lianne Dalziel must really be smarting – if Chris Carter had really cared about her, he would have bought the flowers with his own money. Now it just looks like a cheap attempt to curry favour.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    Over at the Standard read the thread rolc mentioned.

    Oliver, the only one that spoke sense in 97 comments, was ruthlessly shut down and banned when Marty got sick of being hammered.

    Pure corrupt censorship, just like the Labour Party itself.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. philu (12,989 comments) says:

    “..# Viking2 (1873) Says:
    June 13th, 2010 at 10:29 am

    Michelle made one mistake; there are three types of people. the two she mentioned and then the third who is the cunning bastard that finds ways around the rules so remaining squeaky clean. Cullen comes to mind.
    ..”

    is that a load of crap..?..or what..?

    didn’t you see this..?

    http://whoar.co.nz/2010/comment-whoara-tale-of-two-parliamentariansand-a-nod-of-respect-to-michael-cullen/

    on q & a this morning…there was the clearest demonstration of parliamentary-troughing….

    guyon espiner held up the file of the expenses of shane jones….

    ..it is the size of the auckland telephone book…(white-pages)

    ..he then held up the expenses-file for the same period of time..of michael cullen…

    ..this is a couple of sheets of a4….

    whoar…!

    ..(’holy serial-gouging/troughing..!..batman..!..”..

    and ‘holy presbyterian-fiscal-rectitude..!..batman..!’..

    ..in all areas of the life…)

    and i guess that now would be a good time to give a nod of respect to cullen…

    …for his meaness/parsimony in paying down our national debt..

    ..during the ‘good times’…

    had cullen not done that..and had he heeded the call from national of wholesale tax cuts instead…

    ..we would now be in a far more parlous state than we actually are..

    and the riff/meme that key/national run..is that they inherited this ‘mess’ from labour…

    key knows that this is actually total bullshit….

    ..and that the ‘.meaness’ of cullen…

    ..was for all our ‘good’….

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. reid (16,718 comments) says:

    and i guess that now would be a good time to give a nod of respect to cullen……for his meaness/parsimony in paying down our national debt….during the ‘good times’…

    He wasn’t parsimonious when it came to giving money to Liarbore’s constituent’s though, was he, phil. Had he been, throughout his entire term, our national debt could have been zero. But no.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. side show bob (3,410 comments) says:

    Actually the whole Carter, Jones affair could in some way help Philin. Poor Philin continues to go down in the poles like a lead balloon, he really has no clues and he can gain no traction in the popularity stakes. If he was a real leader he should return Monday morning and start kicking arse. Tell the Liarbore party hierarchy he wants to sack Jones/ Carter and generally wave the big stick. I’m sure ex Liarbore voters like Atheist1 would enjoy a bit of blood letting and Philin might actually prove he is leadership material.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. philu (12,989 comments) says:

    whereas key..is creating inter-generational debt…at a galloping rate..

    to fund tax cuts for the rich…

    (i know which i prefer…)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. side show bob (3,410 comments) says:

    Yeah Cullen is a great dude Philly, isn’t it neat how he tried to bribe us righties with WFF and good stuff like that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. tvb (4,556 comments) says:

    Jump Carter jump (but he wont). He will use every emotion in the book when his feeble excuses were ignored. Now it is emotional blackmail. One can see him playing the full range of his feeble emotions in public. Behind the scenes he is a creep, I never realised the extent of his creepiness. I feel damn sorry for his partner.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. RightNow (7,015 comments) says:

    Goff should capitalize on this. He could change public perception of the labour party by axing two or three of the highest profile offenders. Stating that he expects a higher standard in the future also puts the heat on National ministers while they remain in government.
    This alone is worth the $50k in my book, that regardless of the individual cases that are now in the past, we have a new higher standard for the future that we can measure against, regardless of who holds the reins. Only a corrupt party would move to have this transparency reversed, and New Zealand is just not that stupid (fingers crossed).
    So the Standard are right in a way, the ball really is now in John Key’s court. I look forward to a squeaky clean government.
    Let all governments now be aware, you should govern as if you have nothing to hide.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. Tauhei Notts (1,687 comments) says:

    As a measure of how much damage Chris Carter has done to the Gay Lib movement, one of the terms used by Starboard at 10.43 earned me ten demerit points a year ago. Nowadays that sort of remark gets no demerit points.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. Spoff (279 comments) says:

    Like any good party, there is a morning after. I wonder how the taxpayers will feel when they wake up and find that this one cost over $50,000 of their money and recovered nothing by way of funds for the public purse but reaped a bonanza for the National Party.
    I wonder if they will then ask themselves whose idea it was.
    Still, ten points to the Nats. That is the way the game is played these days and they managed to score big-time. Nick Smith’s $209,000 mouth fart and Bill English’s double Dipton are safely wrapping the fish n chips, the heat is off Heatley and Groser can fill his spa bath with Scotch.
    At least Carter’s laddie won’t be getting any more bouquets and Jones will probably never hire a skin flick again.
    Altogether now – God defend New Zealand

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. reid (16,718 comments) says:

    whereas key..is creating inter-generational debt…at a galloping rate..to fund tax cuts for the rich…(i know which i prefer…)

    phil, show me logical arguments that refute any of the following and please don’t my time with general comments that don’t specifically address at least one of the arguments below:

    Key inherited the economic state he is now dealing with. Right about now is the stage where any fundamental decision he made early on, will start to flow through.

    There is an economist-driven opinion that tax affects productivity because it restricts investment by making less money available. By adjusting the balance, you free up some capital amongst those who have disposable income. There is no gain from adjusting the balance amongst those who don’t have any disposable income but you have to look after them and keep it all affordable, so you don’t therefore load an unbearable burden onto that or even onto any one sector. The very same argument applies to not loading undue burden onto large corporate employers, who are basically the engine room and you don’t want to fuck around with that unless you know what you’re doing.

    Lefties I have noticed almost universally ignore such logic and pretend that they know how corporates think because it’s easy: they’re evil and apparently, most lefties appear to wish they didn’t exist. Which is quite strange because many of them wouldn’t have a job without them. Just how many union reps would they need if the union only had about 50 members? Bet they haven’t thought about that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. Pete George (23,830 comments) says:

    Spoff, are you suggesting this should have been ignored? Or that only non-Labour MPs should have been checked out?

    Surely $50,000 is a small price to pay if it provides the impetus for a new age of MP responsibility and accountability. It should be repaid many times over.

    The idea is that MP’s (and some party lackeys) get the strong message that most of the public are fed up with out of touch rorting MPs and won’t tolerate it any more.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    “and you don’t want to fuck around with that unless you know what you’re doing.”

    Praise the lord that the Messiah Obama knows what he is doing.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/3806568/US-Government-gives-BP-48-hours

    I hope the Yanks are truly thankful for having such a competent chimp at the helm.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. Atheist1 (174 comments) says:

    sideshow bob @1.26 pm

    Yep. With you, bro. First time ever :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. Spoff (279 comments) says:

    Reid.

    If you want logical arguments I suggest you first present one.

    “Key inherited the economic state”
    By this are you suggesting that the previous administration somehow created the Global meltdown? Did derivatives trading have anything to do with it?

    By describing corporate employers as the “engine room” you are indulging in a logical fallacy – argument from analogy. What does it mean? What is it that fuels the engine? Who is it that steers the ship? Where is the ship headed?
    Its all rhetorical nonsense and your understanding of leftist economic theory is too simplistic if it is informed by “Horses eat grass therefore sheep are horses” type reasoning.

    Corporations, by their very nature, are entities dedicated to their own well-being. It is the perception of what constitutes that well-being that separates left from right. A corporation that acknowledges the well-being of its employees and society as necessary to its own is congenial to the left. A corporation that acts as an opportunist is definitely not.

    Giving a tax break to a corporation that slashes employee numbers at the first sign of a contraction in the economy is not conducive to the national economic well-being. That corporation, driven purely by short-term profits, is not going to use that windfall to keep people in work. This, as you call it, “engine” is responsible for throwing a greater burden on a State that is concomitantly less able to bear it through reducing its own income.

    Economist-driven opinions are just that – opinions and there are many that point to the vastly diminished manufacturing base of the U.S. as evidence that corporate interests and the National interest are not synergistic.

    Pete George.

    I am suggesting that an investment of $50,000 in trawling through mountains of records that have already been audited that turns up no evidence of rorting apart from a few petty cash adjustments represents a net loss to the Privy Purse. That it was instigated by National as a political response to the exposure of a clear-cut case of rorting by a National Minister (Heatley) raises questions about the priorities National places on expenditure.
    You are welcome to believe that the motive for this fishing expedition was to tighten up MP responsibility. I have been around politics long enough to recognise politicking when I see it.
    Put simply:
    Political perspective – 10 points National, 10 demerits Labour
    Fiscal responsibility – 10 demerits National, maybe 1 demerit Labour.

    If we were to open up the Fiscal responsibility contest to include the wastage caused by Groser, Heatley, English and Smith, it would cease to be a contest.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    “By this are you suggesting that the previous administration somehow created the Global meltdown?”

    I dont think he is – but hard to deny they certainly spent like drunken sailors until the accounts were empty.

    (btw – with a name like spoff your not shane jones right hand man are you?)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    “If we were to open up the Fiscal responsibility contest to include the wastage caused by Groser, Heatley, English and Smith, it would cease to be a contest.”

    Of course if we included the fiscal irresponsibility of Cullen in the equation Spoof it would be game, set and match to the new team. :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    PS: How do you know that Shane is right handed?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    Hey, Johnboy –

    Should you or I try to help Spoff –
    “By describing corporate employers as the “engine room” you are indulging in a logical fallacy – argument from analogy. What does it mean? What is it that fuels the engine? Who is it that steers the ship? Where is the ship headed?
Its all rhetorical nonsense and your understanding of leftist economic theory is too simplistic if it is informed by “Horses eat grass therefore sheep are horses” type reasoning.

    Someone could get themselves into a hellova lot of trouble here?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. reid (16,718 comments) says:

    By this are you suggesting that the previous administration somehow created the Global meltdown? Did derivatives trading have anything to do with it?

    No that’s a complete mis-interpretation of my position and I don’t know how you got there, but anyway, if you want to know, yes derivatives trading had heaps to do with it, CDOs are bad as were many other things about the issue. But I said all that at the time and I can’t be arsed discussing it again.

    What I was saying, I will say again, using different words.

    Key inherited the economy, as-in, he took over the oil tanker, and like all big things, it takes time for any rudder changes to take effect.

    By describing corporate employers as the “engine room” you are indulging in a logical fallacy – argument from analogy. What does it mean? What is it that fuels the engine? Who is it that steers the ship? Where is the ship headed?
    Its all rhetorical nonsense and your understanding of leftist economic theory is too simplistic if it is informed by “Horses eat grass therefore sheep are horses” type reasoning.

    I copied in the last sentence because it was so amusing as I was thinking about horses as I read through your comment, as in, bright as. So what’s the logical fallacy in calling corporate employers the engine room?

    As to who steers the ship, why the captain of course. Crikey.

    As to where it’s headed, the wild-blue yonder, I hope. Blue skies and all that. Pretty things.

    Precisely why is it all “rhetorical nonsense?”

    I think I’ll take a break. Back shortly with Part II.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    I see your point there Yvette. It would be a very brave sheepshagger who would attempt to carry out the same practice on a Clydesdale.

    Just goes to show how these academic, socialist, bullshitters like Spoof let theory get in the way of practicality.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    Yes, ‘Clyde goeth before a fall’

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    J’aimerais monter sur votre cheval Yvette.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. RightNow (7,015 comments) says:

    Spoff, I think you fail to appreciate that having set this precedent, it’s National who is now going to be under the spotlight. To be honest the spending that was revealed was a lot tamer than it could have been, and this issue could still become a positive for Labour. But that depends what happens next. Let’s see what Goff does when he gets back, and what Jones might do of his own accord.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    Pour prendre un cheval de Clydesdale pour un mouton indiquerait sûrement
    1] avarice incroyable
    2] au-dessus de l’évaluation d’à un capacité
    3] cécité réelle très pauvre de vue sinon
    Il ne soutient pas penser à.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. Manolo (14,173 comments) says:

    “I feel damn sorry for his partner.”

    I don’t. Why would you?
    He deserves every inch of it (no pun intended). :-)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    mais bien sûr.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  61. Pete George (23,830 comments) says:

    Spoff at 4:07 pm: “no evidence of rorting apart from a few petty cash adjustments ”
    “clear-cut case of rorting by a National Minister (Heatley)”

    If you think it’s petty you don’t understand the feeling in the electorate. Shane Jone seems to be aware of the problem, ask him to explain.

    And this deserves repeating:

    Spoff, I think you fail to appreciate that having set this precedent, it’s National who is now going to be under the spotlight. To be honest the spending that was revealed was a lot tamer than it could have been, and this issue could still become a positive for Labour. But that depends what happens next. Let’s see what Goff does when he gets back, and what Jones might do of his own accord.

    If you want to keep trying to defend the obvious blatant misuse of cards you will keep digging a bigger hole.

    If you accept that we are now in an era of good practice and accountability you might recover some ground.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  62. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    Peut-être Shane Jones a essayé – est-ce que vous avez-vous vu la contusion plutôt grande sur sa jambe, affichée dans les plusieurs TV UNE coupe ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  63. reid (16,718 comments) says:

    Corporations, by their very nature, are entities dedicated to their own well-being. It is the perception of what constitutes that well-being that separates left from right. A corporation that acknowledges the well-being of its employees and society as necessary to its own is congenial to the left. A corporation that acts as an opportunist is definitely not.

    Sorry about that, Spoff, but I just couldn’t stop laughing, or bwa-ha-ha-ing as we conservatives call it. That’s right, they are. Why wouldn’t one be dedicated to one’s own well-being? What the hecks wrong with that? The fucking corporation knows their people are valuable otherwise they’d chain us up, whip us, not pay us anything and make us do things we didn’t want to do until we died and our misery was ended. But they don’t do that, do they. Instead they rather benignly and pleasantly pay hundreds of thousands of us exactly what they agreed to pay us without any coercion or exploitation whatsoever. What’s your work experience, Spoff. Are you getting paid what you think you’re worth, or is your employer one of those nasty chain and whip ones that we all know so well?

    Lastly, if I was a corporation, what the heck is wrong with aspiring to be a strong, fit and vigorous corporation rather than a bloated, unhealthy, under-performing one. Newsflash: everyone benefits when that happens.

    Giving a tax break to a corporation that slashes employee numbers at the first sign of a contraction in the economy is not conducive to the national economic well-being. That corporation, driven purely by short-term profits, is not going to use that windfall to keep people in work. This, as you call it, “engine” is responsible for throwing a greater burden on a State that is concomitantly less able to bear it through reducing its own income.

    Yes, it is. In my universal experience, everyone I know who got made redundant in the last few years is now and always was almost immediately re-hired. I’ve just had mine, I walked out of one job with a big cash payment and straight into another, it was great. I do however and I said at the time, have a big issue with the govt’s tax on redundancy. They should have fixed that and I’m disappointed they never even looked at it. Then I would have had even more cash.

    Newsflash: corporations are driven both by short-term profits and by long-term strategy. The balance between the two is under constant review. That’s what senior managers do. One aspect that doesn’t work is failing to make CEO’s accountable for long-term outcomes, by tying their rem to the current share price when they should tie it to a series of future ones.

    Economist-driven opinions are just that – opinions and there are many that point to the vastly diminished manufacturing base of the U.S. as evidence that corporate interests and the National interest are not synergistic.

    You really are coming along, aren’t you Spoff? You’re quite right, they are opinions. I gave a small hint when I used that word in my original post, but that doesn’t matter. Good score. No, national interest and corporations are not always synergistic (that’s a big word, isn’t it Spoff. I wonder what it means). The off-shoring and the Wal-Marting of small-town America I don’t think has been a good thing, myself. I know what happened and understand the forces driving it, but it’s of global benefit, to spread the wealth around. I can’t believe what’s happened to Detroit, I know it’s elsewhere as well but that’s amazing and also a harbinger of things I fear.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  64. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    Mais toujours, Johnboy, vous êtes si vilain pour vous suggérer montez les moutons, encore moins chevaux. J’ai peur que vous n’affichiez aucun respect pour mon âge ou capacité physique.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  65. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    Je préfère voir la jambe d’une femme

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  66. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    Plus d’un bon morceau joué sur un violon ancien.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  67. Spoff (279 comments) says:

    Right Now.
    “Spoff, I think you fail to appreciate that having set this precedent, it’s National who is now going to be under the spotlight.”

    OK. I think I get it. National spent $50,000 of public money in order to teach their own Ministers not to do any rorting.

    Probably a good investment.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  68. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    Comme des « moutons peut sans risque frôler », de la cantate séculaire BWV 208 pour le violon et du piano par J.S.Bach

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  69. reid (16,718 comments) says:

    OK. I think I get it. National spent $50,000 of public money in order to teach their own Ministers not to do any rorting. Probably a good investment.

    Spoff is this your personal fantasy or actual? In which case, details please.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  70. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Puis les deux “vieux violons” aller jouer un air ailleurs?
    En d’autres termes, aller chercher une chambre. ;)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  71. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    Kris K qui est pourquoi ce s’appelle la musique de chambre

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  72. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    Naturellement nous jouerions seulement la musique dans la chambre – Johnboy devrait avoir ses moutons et les chevaux certains placent autrement. La gestion déteste habituellement pour avoir des crottes de n’importe quel tri sur le tapis.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  73. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    Kris: מיינונג דיין אייגן געשעפט. מיר זענען בעת שפּאַס.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  74. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    Flossie mes brebis peut être jaloux si un lock-out de la salle Yvette. :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  75. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Je suis sûr que vous allez faire de la musique à la fois merveilleux ensemble, Yvette.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  76. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    Got you fucked then Kris. Try Yiddish. I thought you would know it somehow. :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  77. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Johnboy 5:38 pm,

    I tried Greek and Hebrew, not Yiddish.
    I apologise and shall slink of to my ‘room’. ;)

    No more horsing around, or dressing mutton up as lamb, though, you two. And keep the music volume down low.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  78. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    Hell these translators are fun. Shane should have used these instead of his hand.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  79. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    Fait Kris que K suggèrent uncharitably que je puisse être un puma, vraiment juste mouton préparé vers le haut de comme l’agneau. Je suis étonné à lui.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  80. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    Yvette: Voulez vous. :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  81. tvb (4,556 comments) says:

    Carter is a sleeze that is why I feel damn sorry for his partner. Carter is a master of the plausible excuse for suspicious behavior. And when the bluff is called on that he uses emotional blackmail. That is why I feel sorry for his partner. I would have thought it would be the other way around given the large age difference. Carters’ career is over, the gravy train stops at long last. What a sanctimonious fool. I guess he will run the gay thing. But he has proven to be a very poor model for gays. Charles Chauvel is far far better for Labour, very business like, competent, intelligent. So lets us see how he goes.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  82. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    But he has a little,high pitched, voice that sounds like he still works for his last pimp (Helen) tvb.
    If he is good for Labour then what the hell is bad for Labour?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  83. side show bob (3,410 comments) says:

    Bloody showoffs :-)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  84. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    Here is a bunch of flowers my Darling, and by the way, the people of New Zealand paid for them. Cela doit être descendu comme une position de vomi froid.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  85. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    Yvette last time I had a vomit was when I celebrated my 60 years with my old mate and we polished off two Litres of “The Famous Grouse”. Note: I paid for them myself and did not put it on the peoples plastic like Tim Groser.
    Still you have to admit that among all of the shysters he has some taste. :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  86. Spoff (279 comments) says:

    Reid.
    I am long retired and was self-employed for the greater part of my career. For half of my working life we had never heard the word redundancy and when it was mooted, I and my colleagues were mystified as to how such a thing could be justified. This should give you an idea of the distance I have traveled in my political/economic thinking and the vast gulf between where you and I stand on these issues.

    Once again your assertions are couched in analogy – strong, fit vigorous, bloated, unhealthy etc. – analogies with the human body.

    The fallacy is easily exposed. Companies that are lean, with few cash or asset reserves are vulnerable to the vagaries of the market, the economy, competition etc. Companies that are bloated with cash and asset reserves are vulnerable to asset strippers, takeovers etc.

    In the sixties, before I struck out on my own, I worked for a major Japanese corporation. It fits your description of a bloated company to a tee. They never fired anyone. The guy whom I replaced (and whose annual performance I exceeded by a factor of 4 in my first ten months) was relocated to a desk in a large office where he sat with nothing to do until his retirement.
    That company is still one of the largest corporations in the World and it still conforms to that same old model.

    Another company I worked for in my youth started out the same way – asset rich, owned a large building in the Auckland CBD. In the eighties, they sold their building, slimmed themselves down and distributed some of the proceeds to shareholders and invested the rest. That company no longer exists – it was unable to stay afloat in the downturn of the late eighties.

    Buzz words and jargon like “lean and mean” etc. tell you nothing and I have watched generations of young, keen hotshots embrace them and spout them like some magic formula. Some prosper and some fail. It is usually those who have the good sense to put on a layer of “fat” to sustain them during the “lean” times who are still standing at the final bell.

    This post is purely on the subject of analogy and jargon. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explore either the ideology or the economics of the left in this medium. There is actually very little that has not already been written in Statute and History books that the left needs to promote its cause. I guess one has to have lived through and witnessed the struggle to gain the redundancy that you have benefited from to fully understand this.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  87. Pete George (23,830 comments) says:

    Goff came off the plane today saying exactly the right thing.

    “I don’t think it’s about making excuses,” he told 3 News. “It’s about fronting up to responsibility.”

    Now hopefully the message will filter down the ranks.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  88. Eddie (288 comments) says:

    @Spoff, “OK. I think I get it. National spent $50,000 of public money in order to teach their own Ministers not to do any rorting.

    Probably a good investment.

    Bloody well said and bloody well true.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  89. tvb (4,556 comments) says:

    So Carter resigns at least he will threaten that. Goff calls his bluff and waits. Twyford has a run at the by-election? Bollinger Bolshevik Tizard waits in the wings. If Carter goes he will be made to scapegoat the whole problem for Labour, a prospect that pathetic little man will want to resist. Let us see what Goff is made of. But Carter’s resignation will go a long way to cleanse Labour of this problem. Somehow I do not think Carter will want this, instead he will announce he is standing down at the next election. What does he do next. Maybe the “first gay councillor” for Auckland super city. Is there is no end to the vanity of that man.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  90. Caroline Castle (16 comments) says:

    TV3 saying the Ginga might be promoted.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  91. Eddie (288 comments) says:

    I also saw Stuart Nash sitting next to Hughes in the house on the news coverage tonite.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  92. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    Perhaps Carter may surprise us all and ‘take it like a man’, resign and form a new political party.

    The Gay Aotearoa Young Handsome Overtalented Members Organisation.

    GAYHOMO for short.

    Their manlyfesto will of course allow for purchase of flowers, limo, kitchenware and massage services as and when they feel they need it, particularly if the rotten journalists have been upsetting them.

    Just a thought.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  93. Barnsley Bill (848 comments) says:

    Ha, Goff said that as he got off the pointy end of a big plane fresh from his trip to china.. All on the tax payer no doubt. He then climbed into his ministerial services funded beemer with king and hughes. On their way no doubt to his mansion in clevedon.
    He does not get it at all. The trip, the plane, the mortgage payments, the colleagues transported to auck on our dime..
    Clowns the lot of you if you think he is going to do anything about fixing a problem he is part of.

    They are shitting on our faces. All of them. Blue shit, red shit. It is still shit.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  94. philu (12,989 comments) says:

    gee eddie..i didn’t realise parliament sat on a sunday…

    what exactly are you trying to tell us here…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  95. Sonny Blount (1,809 comments) says:

    Spoff you are quite confused it seems.

    ‘Fat’ when used to describe to describe companies and institutions means excess costs and expenses.

    You have used ‘Fat’ to describe assets and cash reserves. These are totally different things.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  96. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    Ha ha ha Barnsley: Phil, Ginga and Annette.

    The Goof the Fag and the Ugly. :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  97. Sonny Blount (1,809 comments) says:

    Apparently with Carter, if you take his partners current age and subtract the length of time they have been together, you get something illegal.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  98. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    And a fair chance you get something transmittable I suspect.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  99. Eddie (288 comments) says:

    Oh my o my, Phil Ure makes an appearance with a moronic comment that should be resigned to the same scrapheap his synapses get sent to. You see Phil, with “the magic” of TV, the witchdoctors can “store things that happened in the past”, it’s called “recording”.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  100. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    Paula’s coming for him Eddie.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  101. Eddie (288 comments) says:

    I believe the news was on Prime which is soothing in that it isn’t the retards at TV1 or the mouthbreathers at TV3.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  102. Barnsley Bill (848 comments) says:

    Johnboy……. :) Sonny, they legalised it remember.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  103. reid (16,718 comments) says:

    I am long retired and was self-employed for the greater part of my career. For half of my working life we had never heard the word redundancy and when it was mooted, I and my colleagues were mystified as to how such a thing could be justified. This should give you an idea of the distance I have traveled in my political/economic thinking and the vast gulf between where you and I stand on these issues.

    Noted, and hereafter I’ll treat you with the respect your age befits.

    Once again your assertions are couched in analogy – strong, fit vigorous, bloated, unhealthy etc. – analogies with the human body.

    OK so far.

    The fallacy is easily exposed. Companies that are lean, with few cash or asset reserves are vulnerable to the vagaries of the market, the economy, competition etc. Companies that are bloated with cash and asset reserves are vulnerable to asset strippers, takeovers etc.

    Er, that wasn’t what I meant. I meant a fit strong and vigorous company = things like F&P Healthcare; Google; etc. Companies that actively and vigorously pursue excellence. Standard financial management practice is a background thing.

    In the sixties, before I struck out on my own, I worked for a major Japanese corporation. It fits your description of a bloated company to a tee. They never fired anyone. The guy whom I replaced (and whose annual performance I exceeded by a factor of 4 in my first ten months) was relocated to a desk in a large office where he sat with nothing to do until his retirement. That company is still one of the largest corporations in the World and it still conforms to that same old model.

    OK.

    Another company I worked for in my youth started out the same way – asset rich, owned a large building in the Auckland CBD. In the eighties, they sold their building, slimmed themselves down and distributed some of the proceeds to shareholders and invested the rest. That company no longer exists – it was unable to stay afloat in the downturn of the late eighties.

    OK.

    Buzz words and jargon like “lean and mean” etc. tell you nothing and I have watched generations of young, keen hotshots embrace them and spout them like some magic formula. Some prosper and some fail. It is usually those who have the good sense to put on a layer of “fat” to sustain them during the “lean” times who are still standing at the final bell.

    This post is purely on the subject of analogy and jargon. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explore either the ideology or the economics of the left in this medium. There is actually very little that has not already been written in Statute and History books that the left needs to promote its cause. I guess one has to have lived through and witnessed the struggle to gain the redundancy that you have benefited from to fully understand this.

    Well, thanks. Nice talking to you, Spoff. Take care.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  104. GPT1 (2,021 comments) says:

    It’s been said before but like others I am sick to death of hearing Chris Carter play the gay card. So he’s the first openly gay cabinet minister – good on him. That may even have been a big thing once but fortunately most of the country has moved on and you get judged by your abilities not your bedroom choices. Chris Carter is picked on because he can’t stop spending other people’s money. And even if some of the scrutiny is unfair (of all MPs) he is clearly a stupid politician because he hasn’t changed his behaviour despite being publically taken to task a number of times for his taxpayer funded trips, perks etc.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  105. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    Hey Reid if you are going to be nice to Spoof cause he is ancient how about you help me across the road too you young whipper snapper you! Specially if I’m trying to get to Yvettes house. :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  106. Jeremy Harris (319 comments) says:

    I can’t believe Carter doesn’t get it…

    The guy is dense as a lead wall…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  107. krazykiwi (8,040 comments) says:

    I can’t believe Carter doesn’t get it…

    True. If someone told Carter he was getting a pink slip, I believe he’d want to confirm his size.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  108. Pascal (1,187 comments) says:

    It is interesting to see how astute the collective Left is at reframing debates. We have Spoff running a brilliant interference move on the debate of public troughers, deflecting and diverting as much as possible and even working in the old tired rhetoric of corporations and bringing back all those images of Industrial Revolution type capitalism. I can see the poor coal-stained faces of the youngsters already, while the boss is a fat cat in his pinstripes with a cigar and a snifter of brandy.

    Or not.

    Maybe what we should focus on is how our public servants completely disregard the rules for their own gain. And maybe spending a bit of money to show the public that a vast number of them have lied repeatedly and should not be trusted. In the end it is not about the dollar values, but it is about the attitude of entitlement.

    Of the lot, Carter and Anderton disgusts me the most because both fail to see wrongdoing. Shane Jones has earned a bit of respect because he acknowledged a mistake and is fronting up to what he did wrong.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  109. Pete George (23,830 comments) says:

    I mainly agree Pascal, especially “in the end it is not about the dollar values, but it is about the attitude of entitlement” – and how that attitude might affect the whole quality of their efforts. An MP that is blase about “petty cash adjustments” may also be blase about much larger amounts in policy decisions.

    But I’m not sure about “a vast number of them have lied repeatedly and should not be trusted.” There has been a lot of noise about some, but that’s only a small proportion of the MPs. Is it many tainted by a few?

    We should be willing to recognise those who don’t display the attitude of entitlement, and to praise and promote those who show an attitude of service.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  110. Pascal (1,187 comments) says:

    True Pete. True. My “vast numbers” refer mostly to the visible ones and they are most likely only visible because they steal, rort and generally live off that attitude of entitlement.

    I am rapidly getting to the point where I want to tell all politicians to just fuck off, stay out of my pockets and to only come back when they’ll be honest.

    Never has a good ring to it, don’t you think? The country always seems to do better when Parliament is in recess.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  111. KevinH (1,257 comments) says:

    Shane Jones and Chris Carter are finished, their political careers are over.Shane Jones will not be taken seriously by the electorate and will always have the stigma of a porn addict attached to his name.Chris Carter is just a plain bludger who has spent his time in parliament advancing the interests of the gay set and milking the system for all he can get.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote