A total backdown
July 20th, 2010 at 12:41 pm by David FarrarStuff reports:
* No areas will be removed from Schedule 4 of the Crown Minerals Act.
* The Government will continue with a proposal to add 14 areas, totalling 12,400 hectares of land, to Schedule 4.
* All areas given classifications equivalent to current Schedule 4 areas, such as national parks and marine reserves, will now automatically become part of Schedule 4.
* An aeromagnetic survey will be taken of Northland and the West Coast of the South Island to assess mineral wealth.
* Land holding Ministers (eg the Minister of Conservation in the case of in the case of public conservation land) and the Minister of Energy and Resources must now sign off on applications for access arrangements to Crown land for mineral developments.
This can only be seen as a total backdown. In fact envir0nmental protection of national parks has been increased, by having them automatically added to Section 4 in future.
Greenpeace Senior Climate Campaigner Simon Boxer said the decision was “a heartening example of people power in action”.
“This is a historic victory for the record number of New Zealanders who stood up to protect our most treasured places and for a vision of a truly sustainable and progressive 21st century economy for New Zealand,” Mr Boxer said.
It is a great victory for those who marched, signed petitions and put in submissions. I think it was the sheer number of individual submissions that probably had the biggest impact.
While The Government solves one problem with the decision, they now face the problem of whether they are serious about catching up with Australia, in light of the back down. They are fortunate that they have just announced employment law changes, as these will go some way towards mollifying sentiment that the Government is not doing enough.
There are some lessons for the Government in this, in my opinion. What were they?
- The proposal was over-hyped. Even the PM himself did this, by stating there would definitely be change.
- The discussion document was rather woeful. It didn’t make a good case for why the Government wanted to mine. It relied on merely the potential value of the minerals. I wanted to see projected jobs created, royalty increases, and tax take changes.
- The inclusion of Great Barrier Island was a tactical mistake. It galvanised opposition in Auckland especially. And mining on the island would be impossible anyway under current regional and district plans.
- This was one of those issues where it was not just about winning majority support from the public. It is about intensity of support. Even if 60% support mining, few supporters would have it decide their vote. However for many opponents of mining, this is an issue which would decide their vote – especially women (in my opinion)
The only real upside for the Government is that they can genuinely say, they do listen to the public, and that it is not a waste of time to response to discussion documents. But that is some minor face saving for what is an embarrassing u-turn.
Tags: mining
July 20th, 2010 at 12:46 pm
If the Government is serious about catching up to Australia, and John Key has indicated that it is, it will be very interesting to see if this changed stance makes the Government more willing to take on more of the recommendations of the 2025 Task Force.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
We won, you lost, eat that!
Just shows what effective protest action can do. Now, onto the attacks on work rights…
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
The government never was serious about catching up with Australia, because doing so is demonstrably impossible. It’s just a slogan.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 12:50 pm
Yes, we can never catch up. Never ever.
Rich countries have always been rich, and poor always poor. It’s a lie that we used to give development aid to Singapore.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
hahahaha I’m still having trouble keeping a straight face, were there actually people that swallowed this government’s rhetoric that “catching up to Australia” was possible and economically viable?
For goodness sake, we are a good 50 years behind the Australian economy and always will be.
This demonstration has helped reveal the government for what it is – a weak, spineless puppet!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 12:54 pm
Rimu, Toad, Berend and Fale, have some faith, guys. NZ is awesome! If we get our game plan right, we can show the Aussies a thing or two! Just look at how much cooler our EFTPOS system is compared to theirs!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 12:58 pm
Just goes to show what an inept, gutless leader John Key is.
This should have been an easy sell to the public, but National royally fucked it up.
Key and his continued pandering to the polls, causing an immediate U-turn if he finds the slightest bit of contrition from the populi is despicable. He was elected leader to LEAD, show strength of character and to make the tough decisions when he needed to, sometimes these decisions may fly in the face of the screaming loony left, but in the long-term they are for the betterment of the entire country.
Now we must suffer under a weak kneed, spineless jellyfish, right when this country desperately needs strong decisive leadership.
Key might as well pick up his pay and fuck off. He’s got his glory of being Prime Minister, now we want a leader.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 12:58 pm
Even the PM himself did this, by stating there would definitely be change
…once a flip flopper..aways a flip flopper…lying bastards the whole lot of ‘em..
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 12:58 pm
Toad, where do you suggest we get the money from to continue with Welfare for families, benefits for all the indolent, and interest free student loans, by selling houses to each other?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:03 pm
anti-smacking
Vote:ets
mining
‘Haviana Key’ strikes again
July 20th, 2010 at 1:03 pm
And over to the right in the Google Ads bit of this page is…
Dump Truck Training
Perth Based – National Qual’s 5-day course. Recruitment Support
http://www.richardsmining.com.au
The way to catch up to Australians is to move there, get a job in their mining industry, and double your NZ salary driving a dump truck.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
Well you can look at Florida vs Louisiana for inspiration on the alternatives.
Louisiana went for oil exploration offshore, Florida banned it & went for tourism.
Not a huge amount in it, Louisiana is up 5 billion at the moment ( 65 vs 60 ), but I’d wager Florida has the better long term prospects, assuming the BP debacle does no more damage.
P.S. It’s kinda harsh blaming Key for Brownlee’s incompetence ( this time ), my money is there was a conversation Brownlee absolutely did not enjoy.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:10 pm
Key, one of the most spineless Primie Ministers New Zealand has ever known has done it again!
Vote:He is taking National Party followers for a ride, which the cowards fully deserve. The problem is Key also letting the entire country down.
July 20th, 2010 at 1:11 pm
Davidp, I don’t see why you want to give up on us catching up so easily. Sinapore’s forecasting 15% growth this year while Australia’s growing at just over 2. Could we do something similar at some stage in our future? It’s difficult to rule out the possibility. However, we’d certainly need to sharpen up our game plan. Very hard to believe a continuation of current policies would get us there.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-07-14/singapore-gdp-expands-at-record-pace-spurring-currency-stocks.html
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:11 pm
How many more flip-flops and broken promises does National have to make before voters decide to give their party vote to ACT to help keep National honest?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:12 pm
Brownlee: bull in china shop. A softly-softly approach at the start, explore the margins, etc. etc. could have seen something pragamatic. But “lets mine the lot” Brownlee stimulated opposition.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:16 pm
Actually John Key has a lot in common with David Lange – both are front men who can sort of charm but really being manipulated behind the scenes.
With Lange who was a creature supposedly of the left it was rightwingers pulling the strings – with John Key it is leftwingers doing it.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
Nigel
and California too,stone broke but leading in environmentalism.
This tells us that Auckland is NZ and NZ is Auckland…to paraphrase de Gaul
So the Nats listen to the smelly tree huggers but not the rest of us……see parental discipline referendum.
NZ,great scenery,pity you can’t eat it.
Perhaps Nigel Latta could be brought in now to tell us how mining is working.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:21 pm
Andrei, why did Lange call a tea break in ’88, then? The only person “pulling his strings” was Margaret Pope. You might want to try reading some more history.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
Toad
“We won, you lost, eat that!”
Yep, confirmation that the Greens are not interested in creating wealth or improving the plight of all Kiwis.
“Now, onto the attacks on work rights…”
Good luck on that one Toad, this is a battle you are never going to win.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
We won, you lost, eat that!
Oh I love a gloater – next time the Greens get their arse handed to them, I’ll remember to remind you ten times louder.
Just shows what effective protest action can do. Now, onto the attacks on work rights…
Dream on tinkerbell. If that is an assault on workers rights, then you really are living in La La land.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:32 pm
toad
You slipped up a little there;
“Now, onto the attacks on work rights…”
Be honest, now it is time to protest about the removal of special status for the Labour party funding arm.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
“they do listen to the public”, yes David and did you also know the moon is made out of aged Swiss cheese?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:35 pm
From a political strategy perspective, pkiwi has nailed it.
Brownlee mishandled it from the very beginning and seemed to positively revel in his “pretend tough guy” image. He was so belligerent and cocky that I shifted from a position of “sounds like a reasonable idea, provided there’s safeguards” to “there must be something amiss or he wouldn’t be so combative, he’d be selling the benefits” and I suspect so did many people who didn’t have the time to research the issue for themselves.
If the Greens really wanted to rub it in, toad, they’d offer Brownlee a life membership for his sterling service to this cause
It fell to Key to come in and try and peddle it, but by then the battle was lost. From the moment it began – because of the way it began, this battle was lost.
More strategic ineptness from NACT.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
DPF, on your home page you have a poll “Who pisses you off more…..?”
Can you reopen this poll and add John Key as one of the options, I want to recast my vote.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
Key seems sensible and basically just a straight good bastard to me. Actually looks at what’s on the table, then makes a call on how to deal with it, and moves on.
Pity he surrounds himself with ridiculous talking heads;
Vote:Judith “Gonna Crush Cars Yo” Collins and Gerry “Drill Baby Drill” / “Sexy coal” Brownlee being a couple that spring to mind.
July 20th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
I still maintain that the Government was merely being proactive to find other sources of wealth than taxation from trading houses between one another (I liked that Mattyroo).
What we have here is a beautiful example of democracy in that the Government proposed the idea to take a stock-take of our mineral resources then if feasible remove that land from schedule for in order to mine it. Let me place the emphasis here on proposal and stocktake…
Then research was undertaken as well as the opportunity to speak against/for the proposal. The result being that a large majority of NZ disagreed with the proposal evidenced by the petition, protests and submissions.
As such the Government realised that the implementation of the this plan would be political suicide and decided to scrap the idea.
Regardless of whether or not it was a good idea, it at least is evidence of a government listening to the people. Personally I’m pissed the Government has not shown the same treatment to the anti-smacking issue or the ETS, none-the-less…
Also the ability for National MP’s to disagree within government is amazing for example Nikki Kaye condemning the idea. Please remember people that if a labour MP under Helen Clark had dissented publicly from the party view they would have been excommunicated!
At the end of the day a smart political decision, a stupid decision, but a democratic decision that reflects the majority of NZ’s who would rather have trees than economic wealth…. stupid people…
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 1:51 pm
Oh, come on, serious about catching up with Australia. What a crock. It was a marketing exercise, plain and simple. No politician is willing to do what it will take, given how short-term interests and loud, shouty factions have captured media and political power (and that’s on either side of whatever is being debated given we all love our stupid left-wing/right-wing dichotomy), and given that the growth rate (that’s a key indicator they’d use, right?) would have to be significantly higher than Australia’s over the same period.
But as to your analysis as to why the backdown occurred, it’s pretty spot on.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
What an opportunity missed. We will sit on the minerals for years until no-one wants them anyway just so a few scroggon munchers can commune with nature once a year. When China no longer wants our coal that will stay in the ground too.
Vote:I guess there’s no point drilling for oil either as wherever it is found will suddenly become an iconic landscape like that bit of scrubby desert down south that no-one ever gave a stuff about until a wind farm was proposed.
We Kiwis are very silly people – greedy, timid and dumb.
Australia the lucky country because it’s the smart country.
July 20th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
Toad: “We won, you lost”
Yeah, great win Toad, mining plans go full steam ahead everywhere but GBI, Coro and Paparoa.
Sorry Toad, I think you are being ridiculously naive. The inclusion of GBI and Coromandel in the initial proposal was just an opening gambit by the Govt that they were always prepared to give away to secure their core agenda, mining on the West Coast, Malborough etc. The lack of any real intention to ever pursue GBI and Coro was illustrated by the fact that the Govt never mentioned anything of such plans to local iwi with whom they were negotiating at the time.
I think the Government has very skilfully foreseen and manipulated the plan to extend mining to secure its agenda. I think Gerry Brownlee will be ROTFL to read that quote by Toad. A Machiavellian masterstroke by the Minister of Latent Energy.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
Also I belong to the camp of people – who see through this proposal for what it really was…
Everybody got so wound up about section 4 land that they effectively gave the Govt. permission to mine every other part of NZ where the other 85% of mineral wealth is.
It is the basic concept of Bargaining 101 when trying to sell something i.e. a car which is valued at $1000: Advertise it at $1500/2000 then barter with potential buyers down to $1250. You win, but even better they think that they won…
Hehehe – I still maintain Key is more than smiles and waves, you don’t make it big in the private sector without the ability to be cut-throat and deceptive.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
Toad:
‘We won, you lost, eat that!’
I have a question for you as a result of your comment, but first a bit of background:
New Zealand is currently borrowing at least $240 million a week just to stand still – and maintain you in the lifestyle to which you are no doubt accustomed.
If the figures on the front page of the NZ Herald are to be believed, the probable value of the gold and silver in the ‘contested areas’ is estimated to be somewhere around $58 BILLION.
My question is this: Since, as a result of your own personal actions (about which you now crow), $58 billion will remain in the ground, where do you (Toad) propose to find that $58 Billion?
I think that the question is a reasonable one, since as you very evidently believe that $58 Billion is better off in the ground, rather than paying-off New Zealand’s chronic indebtedness (generated to keep you in your current lifestyle) you obviously have an alternative means of creating the self-same amount from some other source.
I (and no doubt a lot of others on this forum) would be interested in learning what this source will be – especially as you represent yourself as a champion of tthe New Zealand Green party and they are conspicuous in their advocacy of ‘not disturbing anything – but never actually answereing the questions put to them
And please, don’t run away as you normally do. Here’s your chance – Stand-up for your principles and give me a straight answer.
Thanks
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 2:31 pm
National have won back some of my respect over this issue.
Vote:Key has made a decision that Helen would never have done, national have perhaps gone against a more right leaning ideology for the sake of common sense.
And you guys making out it is evidence of weak leadership need to pull your heads out of your backsides, it is evidence of proper democratic leadership (at least on this issue).
The fact that key won’t bow down to vandals and delusional ideas of catching OZ with our mineral wealth shows he at least has some rational thinking ability.
I am no fan of the gloating that Toad decided was necessary, but I am also completely opposed to red neck attitudes to our unique natural heritage, a natural heritage that some folk here couldn’t give a rats arse about.
July 20th, 2010 at 2:32 pm
I’m with Captain Neurotic on this one. Now the Greens have their win, but watch the mining industry expand in non-conservation areas.
Might buy some land in Waihi I think!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
everytime Toad gloats over something he had fuck all to do with.. we should all employ a person and fire them after a week or so.. just for shits n giggles.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
My question is this: Since, as a result of your own personal actions (about which you now crow), $58 billion will remain in the ground, where do you (Toad) propose to find that $58 Billion?
My question is why do you think it being there automaticaly justifies digging it out?
Vote:There is no comparison with NZ and Australia in relation to mineral wealth anyone that thinks there is, is possibly retarded.
July 20th, 2010 at 2:42 pm
Now the Greens have their win, but watch the mining industry expand in non-conservation areas.
The Greens didn’t “have their win” New Zealand did.
Vote:How many people voted Greens last time?
Sorry, but these attempts to make out that you have to be some green extremist to be opposed to certain types of mining is just a desperate attempt to validate an irrational position.
July 20th, 2010 at 2:42 pm
Captain Neurotic – well said.
Vote:There are lots of areas outside schedule 4 where the potential for mining is very attractive. Behind NBR’s paywall there was a piece on a significant prospect being identifed north of Waihi.
Also there are the extensions to the McCraes mine in the Maniototo which will have a significant impact on the local economy down there.
July 20th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Lighten up, guys. I was taking the piss on a classic Michael Cullen comment made shortly after the 1999 election.
And ummmm, Captain Neurotic – I can assure you the Greens will be ever-vigilant about mining proposals in inappropriate places that are outside Schedule 4 – especially the “Lignitemare” that is proposed for Southland.
But let’s celebrate this as a victory for the environment, because it is. But to use an idiom that I’m afraid is not at all Green (but I can’t think of anything better), a battle has been won, but the war goes on.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 2:54 pm
That’s bullshit on stilts toad, you were gloating, you were not paraphrasing Cullen. You’re simply now saying that because you have been called to answer where you propose the money is going to come from, that NZ needs to keep you and the rest of the indolent in the lifestyle you have become accustomed to.
Come on toad, answer us: How do we grow wealth in this country, where does the 58 billion in replacement values come from?
Mining is not the be-all and end-all of solutions, but it was a damn good one in the interim, as opposed to the solutions that come from toads neck of the woods: ban something.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
Until the stuff you’re mining runs out. What do you do to earn a buck then?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Ah Toad, you’re back
Be a good lad and answer my question (Here it is again – just in case you missed it):
Since, as a result of your own personal actions (about which you now crow), $58 billion will remain in the ground, where do you (Toad) propose to find that $58 Billion?
BTW : You do realise I hope, that the lack of an answer can also be an eloquent statement
So – I’m waiting . . .
Thanks.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 3:07 pm
How do we grow wealth in this country, where does the 58 billion in replacement values come from?
We do our own thing for our own reasons, stop this gazing across the ditch at what the Australians are doing and get back to our roots.
Vote:It seems to me that apathy and collective insecurity are NZ’s greatest problems, we have boxed above our weight before so why can’t we do it again?
We have a lot more going for us than we realise.
July 20th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
shunda – like what? hope and change?
get back to our roots? fuck that. i cant stand stand “grass roots kiwi” bullshit.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 3:16 pm
This government has no guts, they have caved in immediately to a rag tag bunch of celebrity know-it-alls, rent-a-rioter misanthropes and peasant praising luddites. The economic future looks bleak.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 3:16 pm
Hmm dame… I see cracklines in JK smile… National had their chance to pull this country out of the shit… now its all down hill from here… what makes it worse is all NZ has to look forward too.. is another Labour govt been re-elected… its only a matter of when… 2011 – 2014 – 2017 .. it won’t happen overnight but it will happen with more green MPs.
dame right… were doomed.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 3:20 pm
dime>everytime Toad gloats over something he had fuck all to do with.. we should all employ a person and fire them after a week or so.. just for shits n giggles.
Good idea Dime. I’m going to employ a young idealistic Green Party member and lay them off on day 89. If they burst in to tears and ask why, I’m going to tell them that Toad told me to sack them and I didn’t bother asking him why.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
“This government has no guts, they have caved in immediately..”
And you expected any better from the bunch of cowards led by Key? Hardly a surprise!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 3:27 pm
get back to our roots? fuck that. i cant stand stand “grass roots kiwi” bullshit.
So you want to be an Aussie?
Vote:Perhaps this is the problem, people don’t really know what we are about any more.
And what are the bull shit aspects of NZ? Hard work? inovation?
Or does the future revolve around a pathetically shallow population that finds Outrageous fortune the most enjoyable entertainment after a hard day at the mine.
July 20th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
davidp – BAHAHAHA
shunda – to me typical kiwis are the sort of people that watch outrageous fortune.
as for the bullshit aspects? umm tall poppy, lets tax the rich bastards, she’ll be right, blokes must be staunch bro, everyone should be grateful to farmers, we are better than everyone else etc etc
and dont even get me started on the typical fat ass kiwi chicks!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 3:33 pm
Even though I am of the RIGHT some would say the far right I dont see any vision from JK or the Nats. Just continually saying how we cant do this and we cant do that as in this case.
I dont see where the moneys gonna come from to pay for all the dead heads we will have in the future given our education systems best and brightest head off shore.
We are going to be left with the dregs unless we get pollies with a vision and the will capacity and capability to allow the enterprising and the workers to keep more money in their pockets and reduce the numbers of takers.
For the past 35 years we have had a succession of poor governance except for that few years in the mid 80s.
No government since has reversed the policies of that time and all have had the opportunity to do so.
Why Because those few years pulled us back from the brink and since we have been lurching closer to it.
Low standards are appaulded and anyone who calls for raising standards is hounded down.
There is no imagination only a bunch of pollies shuffling the tax money from one place to another.
No attempt to reduce government waste at central or local body level.
No attempt to get a better bang for the buck spent
Sad little country run by sad little pollies and civil servants
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
lastmanstanding, while there may be truth to what you say, I console you, all is not lost! This little country has strength – we don’t know how lucky we are! Catching up with Australia won’t be easy (should that be what voters want to do). However, no one can seriously claim it’s impossible. To the doubters, I feel like saying, you just watch us then.
Many commentors on here lack any sense of what NZ’s good at. Yet we must be good at some things – just look at how much better our EFTPOS system is than the Aussies’!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 3:44 pm
shunda – to me typical kiwis are the sort of people that watch outrageous fortune.
Maybe that’s the problem
as for the bullshit aspects? umm tall poppy, lets tax the rich bastards, she’ll be right, blokes must be staunch bro, everyone should be grateful to farmers, we are better than everyone else etc etc
Yeah, nothing like that exists in Australia!!
and dont even get me started on the typical fat ass kiwi chicks!
Yes…..well… we won’t go there.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 3:51 pm
Why am I not surprised toad, you haven’t offered a SOLUTION to grow our wealth, you go on about stopping everything, but offer no solutions!
You’re right mining is only an interim solution and will one day run out, but it gives us a bloody good base to start out from and build industry from – the best part with our own money. Currently we cannot build industry, or create real wealth generating jobs because we have no capital and offshore capital is quite expensive at the moment, it also adds to the huge problem of our massive underlying foreign debt.
What’s your solution to replace this 58 billion in capital toad, that could have generated so many jobs and so much industry, that could have generated exponentially more in foreign income?
Shunda Burunda, you would do well to answer the same question.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
Catching up with Aussie is a stupid target. We should look for our own aspirations. Some aspects of Aus we will never reach, eg mineral extraction, and others we don’t want to reach – eg population.
There’s far to much bitching and moaning, we are becoming too much like a little england.
We should just work on our own strengths and try to get a bit of pride. It’s hard when so many learn and leave but there’s still a lot going for the country if we want to look for it.
Stop looking at what areas won’t be mined in the meantime (they’re in the bank) and look for what can be prospected economically (much of the minerals will cost too much to extract).
The 58b – is that total value or profit after the expense of extraction?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
Forget about catching up with Australia. Look at these stats and weep.
CNBC’s Top States For Business 2010—And The Winner Is…. – CNBC
http://www.cnbc.com/id/37642856
Take that New York & Cali: CNBC declares Texas the No. 1 state for business – 2010-Jul-16 – CultureMap Houston
http://culturemap.com/newsdetail/07-16-10-take-that-new-york-cnbc-declares-texas-the-top-state-for-business/
Rather dated stats – but on a GDP basis, roughly where your country “slots” in comparison with States of the United States. Updated for example – Texas Gross State Product is roughly in the order of $1.224 trillion.
Comparison between U.S. states and countries by GDP (PPP) – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states_and_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
Tell me, how do we stop Ecuador (61) and Angola (62) sneaking past us in NZ (60) on the total GDO rankings. Singapore now has twice our GDP (PPP).
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 3:59 pm
I think you are reading too much into this backdown DPF.. It’s not because of the marchers potitions the Greens or Labour etc….National does not need their support on this..
Vote:Which only leaves one thing in my mind… the Maori Party.
The Maori Party were against it.. and National need there support.. end of story.
The Maori Party if you look at it… is the most powerful party in parliament… the tail that wags the dog.
July 20th, 2010 at 4:00 pm
Owen McShane, Having worked extensively in both Ecuador and Angola, we’re fucked if they’re about to overtake us in any measure.
Although the muy bonita Colombiana’s that used to sneak across the border into Ecuador, would, I’m sure, be welcomed here by any red blooded male!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
You’re only stuffed if you treat the revenues and royalties etc as a constant stream a la income tax – like the UK did with oil money. Just chuck the dosh in the super fund ow!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
Pete George, why is it a stupid target? The Aussies have more money than us. Most people (me, for example) like money. Why shouldn’t we want to catch them up?
If Australia’s wealth was due to its population or its minerals, how do you explain Singapore’s or Hong Kong’s wealth?
Minerals are a side road that NZ has now decided it won’t follow (at least as far as Section 4 land goes). Will this lead our Government to start looking at other policies that might improve our wealth. Let’s hope so, eh? The 90 day thing was a good start, but let’s hope there’s plenty more to come.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:03 pm
RKBee, but the Nats don’t need the Maori Party when they also have ACT and Dunne? How come you’re concluding the Maoris are the key thing here?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:07 pm
Come on Toad – play the game old chap.
I’m giving you an absolutely brilliant opportunity to stand-up and speak – to tell me (and, evidently others) exactly what your solution to the question I asked (and here it is again – the question):
‘Since, as a result of your own personal actions (about which you now crow), $58 billion will remain in the ground, where do you (Toad) propose to find that $58 Billion?’
You’ve gloated, you’ve bleated often enough about how different things would be under the ‘Green’s', so here’s your chance – convince me.
Tell me where you (And your anti-mining cronies) intend to find the $58 BILLION that you have ensured will stay in the ground – the $58 BILLION you were so gleefully gloating about earlier today.
I’m waiting Toad – are you BRAVE enough to front up and stand up and tell me – or do I (and others) draw the conclusion that, to use an old expression, you’re ‘all hat and no horse’?
Your choice Toad – your choice.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
I’d rather not be tied to Australia’s shadow, we should have our own goals which in part may be to match Aus. What if manufacturing and the Aus mineral wealth takes a dive?
The best way NZ can attract good immigrants and returning OEers is lifestyle, money is only secondary and we can’t compete with Europe and the US on that anyway, let alone Australia.
We need to look for a balance of monetary, natural and social wealth.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
mjwilknz you may be right on fact… but National are not stupid enough to upset their main coalition partner.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:15 pm
Pete George, I agree, natural and social wealth are important. Yet, they’re not everything (nor is money everything). Surely we want to get as good a balance as we can manage between the three. In terms of improving the whole money thing, mining now appears to be out, but, as Singapore and Hong Kong demonstrate, surely that can’t be not the only way!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:15 pm
If the only solution to our economic woes is to dig everything up then we are already stuffed.
Vote:A sense of entilement drives many of the same attitudes to exploiting resources as it does welfare.
July 20th, 2010 at 4:17 pm
RKBee, but they upset them over the Urewera ownership thing. Do you think they’re not willing to do so again?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
Possibly shunda, possibly. Who’s saying mining is the only solution to our economic woes, though?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
The best way NZ can attract good immigrants and returning OEers is lifestyle, money is only secondary and we can’t compete with Europe and the US on that anyway, let alone Australia.
You’re on to it Pete.
Vote:Lifestyle is our greatest resource and one that has been abused and undervalued for far too long.
July 20th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
Shunda, just like money, lifestyle isn’t everything. I find that I like having both!
Surely, we can find a good balance between the two!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:25 pm
Maybe we need some Ted here.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:26 pm
mjwilknz… NO!! … that’s why the chief of police is now saying they should apologize to Maori over their handling over the Urewera’s.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Possibly shunda, possibly. Who’s saying mining is the only solution to our economic woes, though?
Well some comentators here seem to think so and it is often repeated by locals in my area. Quite frankly I see it as a lazy attitude and one riddled with a sense of entitlement.
Vote:The local miners on the councils here have some shocking attitudes to anything other than their own interests, they couldn’t give a rats about the community as a whole.
July 20th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
TED: Ideas Worth Spreading
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
Ted? You’re not some sort of management consultant, are you Pete?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:36 pm
Sorry, RKBee, wasn’t Broad apologising for their terror raid they did awhile back?
Shunda barunda, I agree, it’s lazy to think that’s the only way. Has anyone tried asking the Greens which they’d prefer? Some conservation land mining or a few of the 2025 Taskforce recommendations?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:36 pm
The Maori Party are going to poison what ever party they a-line with… because Maori are only for Maori not New Zealand.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:36 pm
Shunda, just like money, lifestyle isn’t everything. I find that I like having both! Surely, we can find a good balance between the two!
I am probably one of the poorer comentators on this blog as far as income goes, but I have a rich lifestyle – low debt, can go on holiday with the wife and kids whenever I like, camping, surfing, fishing on isolated rivers, enjoying photograpy and an interest in our natural heritage, and the odd overseas trip.
Vote:On a global scale I live like a king.
I don’t need or want a mansion on a hill, I see wealth in the counrty I live in and our tradition of being able to experience it as a birth right.
July 20th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
mjwilknz sorry… I thought that was what you were on about….
The Urewera ownership thing… for Maori was once bitten twice shy..
National are very aware not to spook them further…
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
Shunda, would you agree our health’s a pretty important thing to spend money on? Being healthy makes it a bit easier to enjoy “camping, surfing, fishing on isolated rivers…”, doesn’t it? Doesn’t wanting a bit more income in case you need it for your healthcare a good reason for wanting to try and make it so we can choose to earn a bit more?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 4:51 pm
Possibly, RKBee, possibly. At the end of the day, though, we live in a democracy. If National does go easy on the Maori Party in a way the majority doesn’t like, surely they’ll be risking it in the polls!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
Catch 22… Damed if they do damed if they don’t.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 5:02 pm
Could well be, RKBee, could well be! The yelling and screaming will be fun to watch on the telly, though eh?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
Shunda
Vote:I couldn’t agree more
So I think I will send this to every National MP tomorrow, as I think John Key has something up his sleeve.
July 20th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
Mr Toad has said “Until the stuff you’re mining runs out. What do you do to earn a buck then?”.
The Martha reef in Waihi is still being exploited 140 years after it began – many generations.
Vote:There is enough ironsand on our beaches and on the seabed to be mined for many generations.
There is enough coal under the surface to last this tiny country for many 100s of years.
There are heaps of substantial mineral resources in NZ – possible, probable and proven.
The same applies to petroleum resources.
The undersea mineral deposits off our coast have not yet even begun to be exploited.
The notion that we will “run out” of mineable mineral resources is simply not correct.
Why do you keep repeating it ?
July 20th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
Oh FFS. Harden up. That’s all i have to say.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 5:19 pm
Growth? Forget growth of any kind in this country whilst the Reserve Bank increases interest rates at the first sign of any growth in the economy.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 5:27 pm
Oh yeah, Paul Marsden, the Reserve Bank’s the root of all evil. Let’s privatise the buggers, shall we? That’ll teach them a lesson!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 5:32 pm
Ahhh… I was about to say something………..
but shit look at the time.. i’ll be lucky to get out of the building………..
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Shunda said:
Agree shunda, most of us are happy with our lot. But, if you open your eyes, there is a huge underclass in this country that doesn’t have a whole bunch of hope, in many, many ways. A lot of this underclass are unemployed and with no hope of employment, all the while they are unemployed they are breeding more trash, just like themselves – that has less hope of making a positive contribution to society.
To move these people from poverty takes a many pronged approach, but most importantly, it requires these people to have some discipline. How do they get discipline? By being employed.
At the moment, there are no jobs for these people and not a whole lot of prospects on the horizon, there are no big projects coming along that are going to give the economy a step change in creating jobs and earn much needed foreign dosh for the economy. It is capital (the foreign dosh) that enables us to grow a productive economy, without capital it is nigh on impossible to grow an economy.
Right now our gummint is borrowing a billion bucks a month just to stay running on the spot, the government cannot realistically borrow any more money. The private sector is already in debt up to the eyeballs with their stupidity in believing they will get rich with ever-increasing house prices. Everybody is maxed-out on credit, in our current predicament it is fucking difficult to create jobs. Yes, certain entrepreneurs can have quick hits here and there, but that is like the heroin fix for a junkie, just results in them being satisfied for a very short time, but eventually needing an even bigger dose (capital) to subsist.
So, the gummint has to get out of the way of private enterprise enabling that private enterprise to create jobs and wealth, by opening up a small piece of DoC land, there was potential for private enterprise to do just that. With this wimpish backdown, gummint yet again stymies the productive sector of the economy.
Whilst you may be happy with your current lot, here’s something that may surprise you (and Robyn Malcolm) – It’s not all about you!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 6:09 pm
Hey Fats Brownlee will Maori still mine greenstone on DOC land? Ouch that hurt. What a disgrace to Saint Bedes!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
Ladies and Gentlemen
We seem to have lost a certain vociferous amphibian – one ‘Toad’ – the creature who is extremely vocal about all the things that are wrong with this country, things that his beloved Green party will fix (when they take charge), yet who, when challenged to ‘put his money where his mouth is’ goes remarkably silent.
I have asked him twice today to stand up and put his case, yet he has suddenly ‘vanished’.
One hesitates to suggest that the esteemed amphibian has poultry in his make-up, but his repeated ‘absences’ when asked to ‘put up or shut up’ or invited to present his case, must make one wonder.
As he is no doubt reading this, I have to request that in fact Toad replies to the question I’ve posed – or have his peers draw their own conclusions (if they haven’t already done so . . . )
And the question (again) is: (Toad) Tell me where you (And your anti-mining cronies) intend to find the $58 BILLION that you have ensured will stay in the ground – the $58 BILLION you were so gleefully gloating about earlier today’.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 6:21 pm
Reposting from last night:
I am quietly seething over this. Fuck this government. Don’t think I’ll vote next year. Let the Greentards take over this place and let them build their precious Dark Age utopia, I’ll be in the Gold Coast laughing at them.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 6:23 pm
“Don’t think I’ll vote next year.”
Who in their right mind would for this bunch of pathetic -softcock -dropkicks? Sack them all and start again.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 6:24 pm
Komata, yes, Toad’s lack of reply to you was noted. I’m not sure why you’re surprised, though; what kind of answer could he possibly have given?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 6:24 pm
Komata
Do not expect anything else from Toad or any of the other Greens.
They are well aware that their “idea’s” do not stand up to scrutiny, they seek to shut down any and all debate that might expose them for what they really are, their continued support of the old EFA proves this.
Sadly the same can be said about their own website, anybody who does not agree with them or has the temerity to point out their seemingly endless examples of hypocrisy and outright lies is banned, Toad is not used to having to answer questions nor debate an issue.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
“Hey Fats Brownlee will Maori still mine greenstone on DOC land? Ouch that hurt. What a disgrace to Saint Bedes!”
And yet some still claim that Christchurch is not the home of the racist redneck.
Guess old Andy Haden was dead right.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 6:27 pm
F off blouse you hateful weirdo creep! Gutless swine like you make me vomit. Get treatment you wack job bitch.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 6:36 pm
Munich revisited, and Key for the Nevuille Chamberlain award.
And the outcomes in the future will be similar.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 6:45 pm
mattyroo
Your promotion of what I call the ‘ideal lifestyle offset’ is understandable from your personal perspective. NZ is over time however slowly sinking in the world rankings of GDP earnings. Now that might not seem significant when you claim lifestyle outweighs income but consider this. I travel and do business in the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. With the exception of Canada, I have been travelling to these countries regularly since my childhood. I average 3 trips back to NZ per year and I’ve now lived in the US 4 years and in the 80′s I lived 2 years in Australia. I have also lived some years in the UK although my visits there are less frequent that the 4 countries mentioned.
The slow decline of NZ’s competiveness and wealth is evident in a number of ways and it is not just the raw standard of living. It is in the quality of the roads (fewer motorways in the cities and dual carriageway roads in the countryside), lower quality healthcare (higher percentage of doctors working in front line positions in hospitals who trained in non-1st world countries, absence or lack of access to the latest cutting edge medicines and medical equipment), the inability to match the per capita numbers police compared to other 1st countries with the result that NZ’s crime statistics (in relation to these countries) have worsened. Australia despite its vastly larger size and harsher weather has managed to build a 1st world motorway network in and between its major eastern cities. Even the most grotty Coronation St style terraced houses in the grim north are now centrally heated – something that was uncommon amongst the working class suburbs even 30 years ago. There is hardly a home in Canada and the US regardless of climate that is NOT centrally heated/cooled.
Likewise the lower per capita wages/salaries added to the higher cost of living means the net discretionary income gap in NZ is smaller than its major trading partners and so NZers on average can afford fewer luxuries or new technologies, tend to drive older smaller cars, wear cheaper clothes and tend to travel and stay with friends or in more modest motel accomodation. These are not faults or flaws in national character but are the reality of life with less discretionary income.
Now mattyroo (as do many kiwis) will say that NZ offers various lifestyle compensations and in some ways it does. But over time this growing wealth disparity means more and more of our brightest and best are driven offshore because the opportunities are just so much greater away from NZ. Now NZ has always had the tradition of the big OE and some will argue that its swings and roundabouts in that many expats return to the mother country when they are ready to settle down and have a family. The trouble is that the percentage of kiwis who leave NZ is slowly increasing over time while the number of Australian and Canadian expats for example are static (as a percentage of their population) or falling. This is because the the expat kiwis stay overseas longer because the standard of living gap between NZ and Aus/Canada/UK and US (the places where the vast majority of expats reside) grows slightly wider each year (the exception was a 5 year period in the early/mid 90′s when the gap with Australia was actually closing).
These changes are small and very incremental and quite difficult for NZ residents to see. But over time they add up. Over decades if left unchecked this trend has profound implications. It means the NZ tax base is not growing as much as our trading partners – their governments are able to continue to provide better material benefits to their societies (better roads, schools and hospitals and to be able to fund adequate pensions etc). If the gap persists then NZ is sadly headed to a Greek like fate where entitlements become unaffordable or even Argentina where populist economic policies of the Peronists gradually undermined and almost destroyed the economic base of what was in 1900 one of the world’s wealthiest countries.
I’m saddened but not surprised by this policy reversal. Given the power of the environmental left and the similar ideological bent of the media, the bureaucracy, the universities and the commentariat in NZ, it was inevitable that these institutions would easily tap into the anti capitalist anti mining vein that runs quite deep through NZ society. The government’s goals were laudable but in regard to the Schedule 4 lands, it was always a bridge too far with respect to the NZ societal temperament.
Precisely because the decline NZ is experiencing is so gradual and because for so many in NZ even if recognised it can always be out argued by the ‘nicer lifestyle’ argument, is why the situation is going to have to get a whole lot worse in NZ before the kinds of more deeply rooted structural changes in the societal mindset will have to happen before there can ever be an electorally acceptable combination of economic reforms that will truly close the gap.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 6:48 pm
*grim north of England
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
Agree shunda, most of us are happy with our lot. But, if you open your eyes, there is a huge underclass in this country that doesn’t have a whole bunch of hope, in many, many ways. A lot of this underclass are unemployed and with no hope of employment, all the while they are unemployed they are breeding more trash, just like themselves – that has less hope of making a positive contribution to society.
Where do you think I live? I am probably more in touch with the “trash” than you realise and quite frankly I think you misunderstand why they are the way they are, it is not only due to unemployment.
You say:
The private sector is already in debt up to the eyeballs with their stupidity in believing they will get rich with ever-increasing house prices. Everybody is maxed-out on credit, in our current predicament it is fucking difficult to create jobs.
Which I totally agree with, but then you say:
So, the gummint has to get out of the way of private enterprise enabling that private enterprise to create jobs and wealth
So we will be saved by putting our trust in said stupid people then?
Do you think maybe, just maybe it is not all the fault of the left that we are in the position we are in?
Is it possible that when people can never really own their own home due to rampant greed that perhaps it causes them to feel detached from a sense of well being and ownership of their community?
Whilst you may be happy with your current lot, here’s something that may surprise you (and Robyn Malcolm) – It’s not all about you!
No it isn’t about me! because I am not an idiot with debt, or living in a house I can’t afford, any credit card debt or any other of the stupid things the middle to upper class Kiwis have done to put us in this mess!!.
By the way, I can’t stand Robin Malcolm, I have never been to a “Greens” metting and I voted National last election.
By the way
Vote:>
July 20th, 2010 at 7:01 pm
Shunda barunda – you are one of the very few who made any logical sense on this thread. Well said on ALL your comments.
We don’t need mining, it is a short term band-aid for a long term problem. Address the issue, spending beyond your means. If we ever do mine this place then let’s at least make sure it is done by Kiwis for the benefit of Kiwis. not for a pathetic royalty which we will waste in a matter of a couple of months at the current rate of borrowing.
And Captain Neurotic, I agree with your 2.14 pm post. This is exactly the result Key and Brownlee targeted. They never intended going after schedule 4 land.
A bit like the market stall owner selling gourds in “Life of Brian”. “Ten for that, you must be mad!” Set what you want, raise your request 50%, then back down to the position you were after in the first place.
The as a bonus, you “suddenly” find you have a large group of people (generally Green/Labour) who disliked you and your Party having to begrudgingly admire your ability to listen to the people!!!! Fucking genius if you ask me!!!!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 7:12 pm
Mr Farrar – I personally think your analysis above is straight out National Party spin.
Yes I am a rampant, paranoid conspiracy theorist. I actually believe that 9/11 was masterminded by a man in need of kidney dialysis living in a cave in Afghanistan and that the American Federal Reserve is a US Government department. I know, I know, I’m nuts. Foil hat on!!!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 7:15 pm
There’s far too much focus on money. Of course it’s important, but if the basics are attended to money won’t be such a distraction or problem.
Attitude is more important. Attitude to family, to work, to community and to country. And attitude to possessions, and what is really important in life.
One of the biggest problems is personal debt. It will be difficult to solve that, debt is one of the things that is marketed the most, along with thinks you don’t need. There is huge waste spending money on things that are not only unnecessary but also often not good for you.
Mine mine mine is getting people confused, they are confused between minerals and rampant consumerism. The country would be far better off much more quickly if attitudes changed and spending changed, rather than thinking that digging a bit of stuff out of the ground will solve all our problems for us, as we carry on overusing.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 7:21 pm
RKBee, but the Nats don’t need the Maori Party when they also have ACT and Dunne? How come you’re concluding the Maoris are the key thing here?
Except that Maori as a group are the biggest group in Parliament and therefore its just a case of Key asking “how High”.
Vote:Until the Maori seats are abolished and the Nats stop recruiting Maori into their private enterprise socialist party that will continue to be the case. Its also why they can’t/won’t get rid of Maori seats. They are outvoted in their own caucus.
July 20th, 2010 at 7:21 pm
“Mr Farrar – I personally think your analysis above is straight out National Party spin.”
C’mon, isn’t the Pope a Catholic?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 7:25 pm
“Until the Maori seats are abolished ..”
Wasn’t that one of National’s campaign promises? Words were quickly swept by Wellington;s political wind, while accommodation (some would say surrender) was sought with the racist Maori Party.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 7:25 pm
Amen Pete!!!
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 7:27 pm
“Isn’t the Pope a Catholic?” Apparently not, I have inside information that he is an Al qaeda infiltrator, his mitre is loaded with C4 and he’s just waiting for his next meeting with the “chosen one” and I don’t mean Jesus……….;)
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 7:30 pm
kowtow, I compared Florida & Louisiana for a very specific reason, you can easily & relatively accurately compare the effects of a specific industry oil production & the alternative industry tourism. That is I think of some interest in this particular arguement.
California’s environmental regulations cover a huge number of industries, not to mention there are other issues that state has other than being right on the leading edge of environmental regulations, a totally different set of problems, not to mention that it does not have the offshore oil reserves of Louisiana or Florida so it basically cannot make the choice between tourism & oil production.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 7:36 pm
Pete George – good points.
Vote:For people who don’t full understand debt (probably at least half the country) Google “Money as Debt”. Free to download or watch streaming online. Very simple yet powerful explanation of our spiral into debt in the last 50 years in particular and how it has become the norm. I would especially recommend getting young teenagers to watch it before they get their first credit card. Exposes the current monetary system for the scam it is and helps explain a little about how the financial crisis happened.
July 20th, 2010 at 7:46 pm
People here often warn of communist and UN takeovers of the world. As, yes, probably half the country gets sucked in and brainwashed by slick marketing and indebted to banks.
Yes, the socialist trap is also working, combining welfare dependency with financial chains.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 8:33 pm
spot on Kiwi in America.
imn sure you need a state funded job for a quality of life in NZ.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 8:44 pm
Kiwi In America;
Vote:Your post at 6.45 was brilliant.
You have been able to put into words what I have been thinking for twelve years now. It is the incremental growth that New Zealanders do not notice. Like a frog in a pot of cold water that is slowly brought to the boil.
It would have been better if Kiwi’s well crafted piece had a bigger audience in a daily newspaper. But, as he writes, the commentariat would never allow such a discourse.
July 20th, 2010 at 8:48 pm
I have been paying close attention to Komata and toad’s correspondence above. Toad has backed off. He can’t answer Komata’s question about where New Zealand can get 58 billion. Komata, the toads in New Zealand are growing in number because they have been sucking off of the taxpayer’s teat. New Zealand can turn this economy around and catch up to Australia, like Singapore. Unfortunately there are too many “toads” sucking this economy dry and not putting anything back into it and I am afraid it might be too late. John Key is raising taxes, just what New Zealand doesn’t need. I think toad is right, his like have won, but the results s are more poverty, more unskilled workers, more beneficiaries, less employment, large government, more fear, and more debt. Toad, is that something you should be proud of? I don’t think I am gong to wait for his answer.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 8:51 pm
And we all know what a wonderful life Americans have don’t we?
Vote:What a bloody joke, Americans don’t have a sclerick of the freedoms we enjoy.
Land of the free indeed.
We should absoluteley NOT be looking at the states with envious eyes, they have nothing to offer us.
July 20th, 2010 at 8:54 pm
Reading this thread makes you realise that it is the extremes on both sides of the spectrum that are stuffing (have stuffed?) this country.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 9:01 pm
Shunda
Hard working Americans dont have a good quality of life?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
Hard working Mexicans (in USA) have a good quality of life?
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 9:07 pm
Better than in, Mexico, obviously.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
Yeah, lets keep a whole country down so we can have cheap “illegal” labor.
Vote:Read about certain states attacking each other over policy towards illegal alliens recently?
Seems some states are still keen to end state sanctioned slavery, others not so much.
July 20th, 2010 at 9:24 pm
I am staggered that some Kiwi’s think the yoou ess of A is a nation to model ourselves on.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 10:42 pm
Shunda – maybe the USA isn’t a the best nation to model ourselves on. But which one, single nation is?
Have you ever lived there? I have. And the average American has a very good lifestyle. Much more so than the average kiwi. Income : living costs better. Better housing, better infrastructure, better most things.
It would be a great place to live, but I got a little fed up with Americans themselves.
Rufus
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 10:56 pm
KIA, Your post at 6.45pm, which was a reply to me was excellent.
However, I think ultimately you were replying to Shunda Burunda, (Some confusion as my post quoted Shunda, I also used the word “our lot” when I really meant to exclude myself from “our”) as I agree with everything you say, and that was the intent of my post at 5.46pm, which you put so much more eloquently.
Vote:July 20th, 2010 at 11:23 pm
Shunda barunda said:
I couldn’t care less where you live, and why should that factor into it? It is up to you yourself to make the best of your circumstances.
I don’t misunderstand why they are poor, I did say that it takes a multi-pronged approach to help these people, but ultimately I personally believe the root of the problem is discipline.
1. No, I’m not saying the idiots who speculated on property will be or should be running mining companies, what I would like to see is foreign companies come in and set up the mines, employing and using the locals through services and local industry, which is a far better use of their capital than a speculative buy in the housing market.
2. Oh for fucks sake, who implemented the policies that created the housing boom in NZ? Cullen. Greed comes about through all walks of life, the rich, the poor, the left, the right. There are two human emotions that are involved when it comes to money/investing: Fear & Greed. So no matter what incentives/disincentives you put around the markets, ultimately the markets are still going to be controlled by fear and greed. I want the idiots out of the market, I want to see them investing in industry and productive enterprise.
3. Yes, people who do not own their own home are highly likely to have a sense of detachment from the community, but I’m not talking about homeowners, I’m talking about property speculators, that were “forced” into the housing market by stupid personal income tax rates set by Cullen. Which has ultimately driven up the price of all housing stock, forcing the lower end out of the market.
Good to hear, but why did the middle and upper class “cause the mess” we are in now? Stupid fucking tax policy, creating incentives for people to lose money on property investment, solely chasing a capital gain. Exacerbated by crap capital markets and little other opportunity for people to create wealth.
Vote:July 21st, 2010 at 1:58 am
Every month, thousands of Kiwis discover that the ‘gap’ with Australia really is nothing more than a $200 plane ticket.
John Key may well be very good at preventing the country as a whole from moving ahead, but individually, your fate is still very much in your own hands….
Vote:July 21st, 2010 at 3:28 am
What a pack of shit eaters the National Party is turning into.
Vote:July 21st, 2010 at 9:51 am
If your young and live in Northland or on the S.Island West coast the answer is now very clear : get the hell out unless you want to work in a minimum wage tourism job for the rest of your life (until the Green fascists shut down the tourism as well).
Vote:July 21st, 2010 at 10:01 am
Great lifestyle on the West Coast Richard.
Vote:July 21st, 2010 at 10:07 am
It would be a great place to live, but I got a little fed up with Americans themselves.
Yeah, they can be hard work can’t they, and I wonder why that is?
Vote:MAKE THE LINK!!!
Create a superficial society based on *things* and then wonder why people become ignorant intolerably shallow morons!!
I couldn’t care less how much money the average yank has got, they are still some of the poorest people on earth in my opinion.
We enjoy far more freedom in this country.
July 21st, 2010 at 11:29 am
DPF: However for many opponents of mining, this is an issue which would decide their vote – especially women (in my opinion)
Curious, David, why do you think that women are especially likely to be swayed away from National on this issue?
Vote:July 21st, 2010 at 3:48 pm
Shunda, the yanks are out there working for the “American Dream”. NZ society and American society have two
Vote:different philosophies. Here, people are more dependent on the government. Over there, your shunned upon if you can’t make it on your own. I don’t think the American Dream is viable anymore. Corporations have bought congress and is killing that country. Here, its too far to the left. Too much government in our lives. The unions run the news media which is why we only get one view and we have leaders like John Key. I lived in both countries and find it easier to live here. But you kiwis tag the employer as evil yet they are the only ones driving this economy. You folks have too many bureaucrats in government and regulations that is bleeding this country, sending away the best and the brightest, and business are going off shore because there are no incentives to stay here. You can’t get skilled labour anymore because they left. Your resources here are limited which is why NZ is 26 in the OECD.
July 22nd, 2010 at 8:36 am
The Hell with National.
Carbon tax, GST and now mining – that’s the final straw for me. Key and his gutless minions can whistle for my vote.
Vote:July 22nd, 2010 at 11:02 am
There was never any intention from the government to mine in sensitive Option 4 areas and the debate following the announcement was really an exercise to test the publics reaction to mining.Clearly there are minerals that can be mined but there is quite possibly enviromental or political reasons as to why this hasn’t happened yet.
Vote:Northland and the Westcoast have huge reserves of coal which could be converted into income however the carbon emmissions tax on those reserves would make it uneconomic to mine.
We have tons of coal in the ground that frankly is a resource begging to be used and it is unfortunate that New Zealand has such a conflicted idea of how to put those coal reserves to good use.